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Quickstart Rune Magic & Spirit Magic


Psullie

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Having run the QS on Saturday and had time now to start digesting what little bit of the new RQ on offer. I realise something about the new approach to Rune Magic. 

First off all of the adventurers have on average 20 different Rune Magic spells to choose from, and only 3 or 4 Spirit Magic spells. Admittedly each character has 12 or so Magic Points for Spirit Magic and only 3-4 Rune Magic points so it is likely that they will cast only one or two Rune Spells during the game. I'm happy with the overall mechanic. 

Where I have issue is that for initiates to know that many Cult secrets really diminishes the value of the Rune Spell. Fine if you were a high priest, but for example would you expect an Orlanthi initiate to know the way of Flight. Both RQ2 & RQ3 had gaining a Rune Spell as something special, perhaps too special so I see need to open it up. But this also places Spirt Magic (the mainstay of RuneQuest adventures) somewhat in the backseat. I fear that this approach will turn everyone into Clerics

Perhaps it's just that for space reasons they just listed a bunch of common Cult Runes Spells in each character sheet knowing that during the game they'll only cast one or two, and there is another mechanic that places more reverence on the availability of Rune Magic for beginning characters

my 2c

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Agree.

One could use a hybrid mechanic by saying that a sacrifice of POW for Rune Points would also allow the toon to add that many points of spells to their "list of castable spells"

So it's not like 1 rune point adds every available spell for that cult, but one would accumulate a 'toolbox' of available spells.

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That's what my group has been using for awhile. It allows for a variety of rune magic but not "keys to the full arsenal" for a beginning rune magic user.

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On 20/06/2017 at 11:30 PM, Psullie said:

Where I have issue is that for initiates to know that many Cult secrets really diminishes the value of the Rune Spell. Fine if you were a high priest, but for example would you expect an Orlanthi initiate to know the way of Flight. Both RQ2 & RQ3 had gaining a Rune Spell as something special, perhaps too special so I see need to open it up. But this also places Spirt Magic (the mainstay of RuneQuest adventures) somewhat in the backseat.

Well, Rune points are only replenished once per season. That's really not often, especially if, like myself, you are refereeing a mega-dungeon game in which the adventurers are doing multiple forays into the dungeon per season.

A Rune spell will save your butt and, yes, it is way overpowered compared to battle magic (can't get myself to use 'spirit magic') -- however it's just something that will happen really rarely and be the talk of the party for seasons to come so I'm 100% OK with the approach. For me, it sort of replaces the hero points in HQ: a magical feat that saves your butt once in a while.

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1 hour ago, GianniVacca said:

Well, Rune points are only replenished once per season. That's really not often, especially if, like myself, you are refereeing a mega-dungeon game in which the adventurers are doing multiple forays into the dungeon per season.

A Rune spell will save your butt and, yes, it is way overpowered compared to battle magic (can't get myself to use 'spirit magic') -- however it's just something that will happen really rarely and be the talk of the party for seasons to come so I'm 100% OK with the approach. For me, it sort of replaces the hero points in HQ: a magical feat that saves your butt once in a while.

Yep I'm happy with the mechanic, and that Rune Points can only be replenished by religious observance etc. 

It's more about as Sayerson put it: the 'keys to the arsenal' - I liked how RQ2 suggested that Rune Spells would be taught for specific reasons, especially to non-priests. It just seem odd that initiates would have so much knowledge.

I can see how as a character progresses through their spiritual journey they learn the prayers and ways of the cult. Initiation ceremonies etc provide opportunity to acquire cult canon by way of spell knowledge - just that the examples in the QS seem overly initiated. 

If the approach is rare feats codified as 'spells' then I can see how that would work too

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Here's what we're going to do going forward:

Cult of Chaos Forum (password protected) - Discussion, questions, post mortems about "The Broken Tower" scenario in the RuneQuest Quickstart

RuneQuest Forum - Discussion about the RQG rules themselves, and the rules as presented in the RuneQuest Quickstart. No discussion or spoilers about "The Broken Tower" please.

Carry on...

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3 hours ago, GianniVacca said:

Well, Rune points are only replenished once per season. That's really not often, especially if, like myself, you are refereeing a mega-dungeon game in which the adventurers are doing multiple forays into the dungeon per season.

A Rune spell will save your butt and, yes, it is way overpowered compared to battle magic (can't get myself to use 'spirit magic') -- however it's just something that will happen really rarely and be the talk of the party for seasons to come so I'm 100% OK with the approach. For me, it sort of replaces the hero points in HQ: a magical feat that saves your butt once in a while.

Conceptually, I'm not sure I agree with the premise that  restricted and gradual increase in power (the premise of  character advancement in pretty much all role playing games) is equivalent to 'occasional access to great powers'?  (Hell, that was very specifically one of the complaints about RQ3 sorcery for much of the span of a sorcerer's advancement - that a small chance to do huge effects didn't play nicely or balance fairly with other toons with graduated ability to do moderate effects.  Either the sorcerer was useless "click, nothing.  click, nothing.  click, nothing" or they had too great an effect "click, BOOM BBEG dead, rest of party's contribution nil".)

At the very least, I'd believe that makes scenario balancing nearly impossible.  Is it a scenario where you believe the toons are going to spend their mighty RPs?  Then you better brace the BBEG for all sorts of nasty effects (meaning they're impossible if you DON'T spend/have the RP).  Or if they're saving them for the big fight, you have to make it much easier meaning it's trivial if they DO spend the points.  Ick.

If RP restoration is that rare anyway, aren't we (essentially) back to the point where nobody's going to waste precious rune points (on the lesser-used spells that the rune-pool mechanic was supposed to encourage them to be able to use more often/ever?

(Count me as one of the ones who believe the "one adventure a season" concept as fundamentally dull & silly anyway.)

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My personal preference, house rulesey, is to allow 1 Rune point (RP) per day with all RP recovered during a holy day. Initiates, 1 RP per season with all RP recovered during a holy day. This seems to me a playable, gradual, increase that keeps players from fighting above their magical 'weight class' too often. 

We also choose to constrain character battle magics to 1/3 character INT in maximum variable POW. A very different approach, (ala TDM), which makes matrixed spells set by an 18 POW more valuable. Especially to someone like INT 12 Phred with only POW 4 variable spells vs INT 15 Rikki (with POW 5 variable battle magic). Both house rules work well overall for us and keeps games away from over blown magic ratings and the 'let's do this adventure after a few months of RP replenishment'. Although that happens too. (Nothing like the joy of raiding your enemies in a religiously endorsed vendetta right after your holy day. Except for their retaliation after their deity's holy day).

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Some other options we've used in the past when using a "Rune Points" system like RQ:G

  • Flat out state that some spells can't be used by lower ranks period, i.e they are deep cult mysteries.
  • Require the caster to have a certain ability in their rune skill before it can be cast.
  • Make "higher-level" spells harder to cast - e.g if you're trying to invoke a "priest-level" spell as an initiate then impose a difficulty modifier.
  • Make the PCs work to get the ability - if the initiate of Humakt wants to cast Sever-Spirit then go on a heroquest to learn it.  You can have more fun with this one.
Edited by Stormwalker
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1 hour ago, Stormwalker said:

Some other options we've used in the past when using a "Rune Points" system like RQ:G

  • Flat out state that some spells can't be used by lower ranks period, i.e they are deep cult mysteries.
  • Require the caster to have a certain ability in their rune skill before it can be cast.
  • Make "higher-level" spells harder to cast - e.g if you're trying to invoke a "priest-level" spell as an initiate then impose a difficulty modifier.
  • Make the PCs work to get the ability - if the initiate of Humakt wants to cast Sever-Spirit then go on a heroquest to learn it.  You can have more fun with this one.

There's lots of room for creativity here between GMs.

There's the RQ2-3 standby: you can STILL rule there are one-use spells, say, for lower (cult) level rune casters.  I can certainly see Humakt temples constraining the casting of Sever Spirit willy-nilly.

You could have truestones laden with non-regenerating one-use RPs that can be used to power spells and more or less discarded like one-shot MP crystals.

Lots of possible ideas.

I don't believe RQG will go any of these ways by default, but obviously YGMV.  Part of the fun.

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On 20/06/2017 at 10:30 PM, Psullie said:

Where I have issue is that for initiates to know that many Cult secrets really diminishes the value of the Rune Spell. Fine if you were a high priest, but for example would you expect an Orlanthi initiate to know the way of Flight. Both RQ2 & RQ3 had gaining a Rune Spell as something special, perhaps too special so I see need to open it up

Have you considered that this is the how it should be in Glorantha. Dropping all the baggage of the last 30-40 years that we've had with Rune magic. Wielding the power of the gods with rune magic should have been easier. The major difference is how much you can do. Priests have a better pow gain rolls so are going have more rune points in the long run than initiates. So maybe a humakti initiate can get off a sever spirit, but that's it. A priest can do it may times. Yes I would expect an orlanth initiate to spend his hard earned rune points using fly to go to the holy mountain on a holy day and then another time in an assault force against lunar troops. Newcomers to RQGlorantha won't have all the old baggage and will see it as the normal context of Gloranthan rune magic. Given also that rune magic is only one of the magic systems in RQG, it brings rune magic in line with the others. Limiting rune magic will slow character progression, and we'll be back in the old world of a game where it's hard / rare to get to rune level. David Cheng's 1994 Rune Points article in tales 12 certainly showed me the way forward with RQ rune magic, it good to see it's finally part of the main rules. 

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44 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Have you considered that this is the how it should be in Glorantha. Dropping all the baggage of the last 30-40 years that we've had with Rune magic. Wielding the power of the gods with rune magic should have been easier. The major difference is how much you can do. Priests have a better pow gain rolls so are going have more rune points in the long run than initiates. So maybe a humakti initiate can get off a sever spirit, but that's it. A priest can do it may times. Yes I would expect an orlanth initiate to spend his hard earned rune points using fly to go to the holy mountain on a holy day and then another time in an assault force against lunar troops. Newcomers to RQGlorantha won't have all the old baggage and will see it as the normal context of Gloranthan rune magic. Given also that rune magic is only one of the magic systems in RQG, it brings rune magic in line with the others. Limiting rune magic will slow character progression, and we'll be back in the old world of a game where it's hard / rare to get to rune level. David Cheng's 1994 Rune Points article in tales 12 certainly showed me the way forward with RQ rune magic, it good to see it's finally part of the main rules. 

I think (but I haven't played the full rules, or had any campaign in RQG rules) that the new rules may have gone too far the other way.

I think there should be SOME restrictions beyond how many Rune Points you have...

I'm still pondering.  I doubt I'll try to HR this until I have the final rules in my hands...

 

 

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Have you considered that this is the how it should be in Glorantha. Dropping all the baggage of the last 30-40 years that we've had with Rune magic. Wielding the power of the gods with rune magic should have been easier. The major difference is how much you can do. Priests have a better pow gain rolls so are going have more rune points in the long run than initiates. So maybe a humakti initiate can get off a sever spirit, but that's it. A priest can do it may times. Yes I would expect an orlanth initiate to spend his hard earned rune points using fly to go to the holy mountain on a holy day and then another time in an assault force against lunar troops. Newcomers to RQGlorantha won't have all the old baggage and will see it as the normal context of Gloranthan rune magic. Given also that rune magic is only one of the magic systems in RQG, it brings rune magic in line with the others. Limiting rune magic will slow character progression, and we'll be back in the old world of a game where it's hard / rare to get to rune level. David Cheng's 1994 Rune Points article in tales 12 certainly showed me the way forward with RQ rune magic, it good to see it's finally part of the main rules. 

Read that essay again.

Even in his "blasphemous" tirade (I agree that rune points as posited are a great way to do it for precisely the reasons he puts), he agrees with the concepts that:

- initiates sacrifice for rune points but spend them during casting, and DON'T get them back

- priests/lords get them back...unless they use them on one-use spells which are still a concept

 

And Fwiw I entirely agree also with his suggesting that the gm has an active evaluative role in theist spells.  We've done that for years that (for example) aoe spells can be cast in the party, a god is smart enough to only damage the "bad guys"...although occasionally very sacrilegious good guys may get a little reminder-tickle of damage...

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I like the description for Spirit Magic much better than RQ3. It kinda feels like the concept of 'Spirit' is more like a form of ethereal energy, like Chi or Prana; it's not purely tribal animistic in viewpoint and the rationale can be used widely across a range of cultures which place their own spin on it. So the title 'Spirit Magic' works well in this sense. I used to like the original term 'Basic Magic', but never could understand why it was also referred to as Battle Magic when half of the spells had no direct role in combat. Common Magic also works, but Spirit Magic does have a good Gloranthan ring to it, and fits the description well.

I'm really glad we have the term Rune Magic back in RuneQuest again. Although I thought Sorcery was also Rune Magic, in my brain I viewed that there was two forms of Rune Magic: Rune Magic (Theism) and Rune Magic (Sorcery). For purposes of this Quickstart then having one is fine, but hopefully the full edition of RQG classifies it similarly (not holding my breath on that - I suspect that Rune Magic simply replaces the RQ3 term Divine Magic, which is what HQG has done).

I like the idea of Rune Pts, although on my own character sheets I'll probably rename it as 'Runepower', to save confusion with Magic Points. Just feels more evocative as well.

I certainly like the idea that Rune Magic is less exclusive than before, although I don't want it being too commonplace in my Glorantha. I don't know if an Initiate should be casually casting Sever Spirit (or something like that), even if it will be difficult for them to cast it again for some time. Some magic just feels that it should be a little exclusive.

Rather than a total restriction or having one-use magic like in the old rules, perhaps some kind of negative modifier to the Rune % roll may be appropriate? The modifier could based on the Cult Rank of the caster perhaps? Perhaps for Initiates it would be -20%.per additional 1 MP spent beyond 1 MP. Then Acolytes (Godspeakers) could have -10%, whereas Priests wouldn't have any modifier (just spitballing ideas here).

I like the idea that holy days are used to recharge Rune Pts, although I may fiddle with that to find a way to make it quicker under certain circumstances, perhaps time spent in contemplation/prayer/ vows etc - maybe this allows for a weekly or fortnightly POW x5% roll, yielding 1 RP?

I like the idea that Rune Magic is a bit more free form, but I do think it possibly needs a little more tweaking in order to place more value on it as a higher form of magic.

I guess many of us have been playing our own versions of Glorantha for some time now, so it's pretty hard to capture an interpretation that suits us all. However these current rules certainly are the best ones I have seen for RQ Rune Magic so far, it feels like it's fun now

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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5 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Humakti initiates wandering around armed with sever spirits just makes them the badasses they are meant to be. 

I think you meant to write 'terrifying packs of uncontrollably lethal thugs'?  Remember, Humakt really isn't about fairness or justice or compassion or mercy.  Most of the comments say he is "worshiped and feared"...

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The idea of Initiates casting Sever Spirits troubles me.  While Humakti are rare, most Humakti in a mercenary unit will be at least Initiates.

Imagine the start of a battle where the opposition leaders are just taken out with a stacked dispel magic, and then several Sever Spirits.

The way of dealing with this is to either:

- Make 3 point spells one use for Initiates, or

- Made initiates pay 3 points to cast a 2 point spell, and 5 points to cast a 3 point spell. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Dominic said:

The idea of Initiates casting Sever Spirits troubles me.  While Humakti are rare, most Humakti in a mercenary unit will be at least Initiates.

1000 in Sartar, 6000 in the Wastes. 

4 hours ago, Dominic said:

Imagine the start of a battle where the opposition leaders are just taken out with a stacked dispel magic, and then several Sever Spirits.

They all have to have a pool of at least 3pts, it's only 160m range and needs pow vs pow success. The opposition are likely to have magic up as well. As soon as Humakti are rumoured to be present, magical defenders are likely to be bolstered.

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49 minutes ago, David Scott said:

They all have to have a pool of at least 3pts, it's only 160m range and needs pow vs pow success. The opposition are likely to have magic up as well. As soon as Humakti are rumoured to be present, magical defenders are likely to be bolstered.

A squad of 20 humakti's can basically kill anyone, regardless of POW.  Maybe working as intended..  

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36 minutes ago, David Scott said:

1000 in Sartar, 6000 in the Wastes. 

They all have to have a pool of at least 3pts, it's only 160m range and needs pow vs pow success. The opposition are likely to have magic up as well. As soon as Humakti are rumoured to be present, magical defenders are likely to be bolstered.

this suggests that the only limiting factors are Rune Points and the casters Rune affinity - initiates generally having lower values in each, but have the potential to cast any Rune Spell known to the cult. The QS says that initial Rune Points are sacrificed POW then replenished by worship, so one has to have sacrificed 4 POW at some point in the past to have a pool of four rune points. For me this would be the game balancer, and I hope that the cult write-ups reflect this, i.e. most casual initiates having only 1 Rune Point.

Then again the concept of a 'rune arms race' comes to mind as both sides of a conflict max out on power charging their priests before battle could be interesting   

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In my long-standing Pavis campaign I'm running with RQ3, we created a house rule that looks exactly like the one included in the Quickstart, like many other GMs did.
Only the catalogue of spells became slowly available as you sacrificed POW to get runic points (we called them "faith points"). 

We also didn't like theists using spirit magic, so we added most spirit magic as runic spells to the spells available to each cult.

Right now, most of the player characters in my campaign have about 14 or 15 runic points. I guess it's time for them to become rune lords. ;)
But then, what if no position for rune lord and rune lady opens up in the temples in Pavis?

Read my Runeblog about RuneQuest and Glorantha at: http://elruneblog.blogspot.com.es/

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Could someone explain the Gloranthan mechanics for spirit magic and how those are replicated in the rules?

What I have always pictured is a personal relationship (friendly or otherwise) with a spirit housed in a charm or object (such as a sword). The spirit provides aid and guidance to its owner. e.g., "Strike here, move there. Now block..."

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