quicktstart Quickstart Rune Magic & Spirit Magic

[Psullie]

34 minutes ago, kaydet said:

Could someone explain the Gloranthan mechanics for spirit magic and how those are replicated in the rules?

What I have always pictured is a personal relationship (friendly or otherwise) with a spirit housed in a charm or object (such as a sword). The spirit provides aid and guidance to its owner. e.g., "Strike here, move there. Now block..."

1. Spirit Magic (aka Battle Magic) is common place low powered magic that most sentient beings are capable of. They require sacrifice of your personal energies (Magic Points, a daily renewable source) to bring into effect. When opposed they require the caster to overcome the targets presence (POW) with your own.

2. Spirits are commonplace entities that can represent almost anything, there are disease spirits, spell spirits, passion spirits, water spirits etc. Mostly they do not interact with the mortal world (called the Middle World), however a shaman can attempt to engage with them and if they can over come the spirit bind it to an object where they can then use that spirits magic. Some malevolent spirits, such as disease spirits, can initiate an attack. Sometimes knowledge of rare magic can only be learned by locating a suitable spirit and defeating it in spirit combat.

Note: there are other forms of magic in Glorantha, Sorcery, Rune Magic (aka Divine Magic) and Animism. 

[David Scott]

50 minutes ago, kaydet said:

Could someone explain the Gloranthan mechanics for spirit magic and how those are replicated in the rules?

At the root of this is the deal that is done with the spirit when goes it into its new home. The spirit wants to be in the object as it lets it return to the Middle World when it should be in the spirit world. This is the yearning to be back where it was, to have attention and be looked after. In exchange, the spirit uses its powers when asked by its owner, in RQG with an offering of magic points. In RQG its is modelled that the spirit just does its job, in HQG, it adds other requirements - taboos. These are flavour to using spirit magic.

Some would appear to have no spirit needed and has the caster using his own energy to power the magic. In real world shamanism this is often considered problematic. You end up draining yourself of power leaving yourself open to what are called intrusions. It's up to you to decide how its modelled in the game. e.g.

Is Disruption your character sending out a piece of their own spirit to attack another represented by the 1mp - hence the POW vs POW roll or is it that you give your disruption spirit a magic point and it flies out and is assisted by your POW hence the POW vs POW roll. Or do both forms exist in Glorantha. Technically it could be argued that it is always the latter form as the former is sorcery. I use the latter description as that's how it works in real world shamanism with spirit arrows and I made sure that HQG spirit magic modelled that..

Edited June 25, 2017 by David Scott

[Oracle]

1 hour ago, Psullie said:

...

Note: there are other forms of magic in Glorantha, Sorcery, Rune Magic (aka Divine Magic) and Animism. 

According to the Guide to Glorantha, p. 9, Animism is just another term for Spirit Magic.

The fourth magic form missing here is Mysticism (aka draconic magic or illumination).

Edited June 25, 2017 by Oracle

[Psullie]

55 minutes ago, Oracle said:

According to the Guide to Glorantha, p. 9, Animism is just another term for Spirit Magic.

The fourth magic form missing here is Mysticism (aka draconic magic or illumination).

yep, I always trip on that

 

[kaydet]

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

It's up to you to decide how its modelled in the game.

So the mechanics of spirit magic do not go into more detail than "pay points, roll dice"?

That's a little disappointing for a set of rules specifically designed for Glorantha.

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, kaydet said:

So the mechanics of spirit magic do not go into more detail than "pay points, roll dice"?

That's a little disappointing for a set of rules specifically designed for Glorantha.

Well, this is only a QuickStart book, you can't have every details on every subject in it.

Anyway, both RQ2 and RQ3 describe spells as abilities granted to the character by a spirit, but the spirit himself didn't remain in the focus.

The kind of magic where you trap a spirit in a fetish was the realm of Enchant magic, and the Binding ritual.

[kaydet]

I understand that it's a quickstart, but you'd think that the core concepts would be in place.

It just seems flavor-less to me, that's all. I had hoped for more.

[Mankcam]

There is a bit about Spirit Magic in the Quickstart, but its vague in a good way, as I feel its open to interpretation. One culture might view 'Spirits' as emotive or sentient entities (think tribal fetishes and animism); whereas another culture might view the concept of 'Spirit' as intuitive energy within or surrounding matter (like Chi, Prana, or even 'The Force'). I think keeping it open works well. A Praxian Barbarian may view their fetishes a little differently to the charms of a Malkioni Dronari, for instance, yet both could be using their foci to trigger Spirit Magic. That's how I have read it, but unsure if that's how it is meant to be in the full rules. But it works for me.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Mankcam

[Joerg]

On ‎24‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 9:56 AM, Iskallor said:

Humakti initiates wandering around armed with sever spirits just makes them the badasses they are meant to be. 

Humakti initiates casting sever spirit may turn out to be one-use initiates once the opposition catches up on them.

On ‎24‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 4:19 PM, David Scott said:

Every setting has its murder hobos, these are just more efficient than most. 

Humakti are the Gloranthan equivalent to Paladins - useless in ambush, useful as one-use rear-guard or Leroy Jenkins.

 

Mechanically, does the spirit spell require a material focus like the charms in HQ, or can it be imprinted in a character's spiritual organ (integration)? Or does this vary from source to source?

The short mnenonic for the three standard magic systems goes "Animism is something you have, sorcery is something you know, theism is something you are." At least in HQ.

In RQ3 there usually was a material component to sorcery, too (even if memorized rather than stored in a matrix), like pointing with a staff or wand. Still, the knowledge determined your success chance, absence of the focus reduced it.

[styopa]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Humakti are the Gloranthan equivalent to Paladins - useless in ambush, useful as one-use rear-guard or Leroy Jenkins.

That comparison goes way too far - Humakti aren't (necessarily) in any way 'good'.  They also represent that death is implacable, remorseless, and necessary.

Certainly they CAN be good people, but a regiment of Humakti would ALSO make the greatest stormtroopers ever.  

[kaydet]

5 hours ago, Mankcam said:

There is a bit about Spirit Magic in the Quickstart, but its vague in a good way, as I feel its open to interpretation.

And that would be great for a game like Heroquest, where the whole point is to be vague and narrative-minded.

But this is Runequest, which to my mind should be mechanically simulating the workings of Glorantha as accurately and precisely as it can.

When Heroquest has more detailed and complex rules covering the handling and interaction of spirits, I think there's something wrong.

[Psullie]

1 hour ago, kaydet said:

And that would be great for a game like Heroquest, where the whole point is to be vague and narrative-minded.

But this is Runequest, which to my mind should be mechanically simulating the workings of Glorantha as accurately and precisely as it can.

When Heroquest has more detailed and complex rules covering the handling and interaction of spirits, I think there's something wrong.

One of the appealing facets of Glorantha is that there is no single modality for the way any magic works, therefore they cannot be a all encompassing mechanic unless you are Mostly). Spirit Magic has always been the simplest form so as to encompass many interpretations. 

Unless you actually want dead chickens on your table, most role-playing games boil down to dice or cards. How you as games master interpret the dice rolling is your call. When your shaman reaches into the under world to summon a lost ancestor so as to study the auras of this around him could be a complicated ritual involving rattles, dancing and sacrifice or just a momentary focus on an inscribed fibula. Either ways he's just cast Second Sight and the player rolls some dice

[kaydet]

32 minutes ago, Psullie said:

One of the appealing facets of Glorantha is that there is no single modality for the way any magic works, therefore they cannot be a all encompassing mechanic unless you are Mostly).

I disagree, for several reasons.

First, while Gloranthan fuzziness about myth and religion might be endlessly satisfying to enthusiasts (I count myself among them) who enjoy debating and pondering such weighty questions, I think that new players need to have some structure to help them get to grips with how the world works -- even if it isn't entirely "accurate" or "true".

Second, there are definitely known "modalities" for different cultures. Having different game mechanics for different understandings of spirit (or any) magic seems like an easy (and exciting!) way to differentiate cultures and explore Glorantha's celebrated diversity.

Thirdly, my point about Heroquest still stands: spirit magic in HQG is pretty detailed and flavorful, with different societies, charms, taboos, and so forth. "Battle magic" in RQ2 has none of that, and if RQG is essentially relabeling "battle magic" to "spirit magic" then I'm left wondering where all that flavor is being provided. Is it up to the GM to do, as you suggest in the second half of your post? If so then again I must say that I am disappointed.

45 minutes ago, Psullie said:

Unless you actually want dead chickens on your table, most role-playing games boil down to dice or cards.

I would suggest that how you roll the dice and for what reason have a great deal of importance. The mechanics behind a game process replicate and reinforce  the action in the roleplaying world.

48 minutes ago, Psullie said:

When your shaman reaches into the under world to summon a lost ancestor so as to study the auras of this around him could be a complicated ritual involving rattles, dancing and sacrifice or just a momentary focus on an inscribed fibula. Either ways he's just cast Second Sight and the player rolls some dice

This, to me, sounds like a statement about Heroquest. In fact, why am I using a set of rules at all? I could run a game by this method using coin flips.

[Psullie]

My understanding of Sprit Magic is drawn from RQ2 and what little is revealed in the QS. I think it unfair to judge the new system based on that. 

As for HQG, everything uses the same mechanic - the flavour comes with the cult descriptions etc which from what we hear from Jeff in this forum are also included in the the new edition. I imagine that the Shaman's +9 benefit from using a charm once per session will have similar flavour element in the new edition considering the other elements already borrowed from HQG - but this is just a guess. 

All I was suggesting was, like HQG, the simplicity of the system enables adaptation for flavour - much like what Cults of Prax did for RQ2.

[kaydet]

48 minutes ago, Psullie said:

My understanding of Sprit Magic is drawn from RQ2 and what little is revealed in the QS. I think it unfair to judge the new system based on that. 

I think it's perfectly fair to ask questions and make comments about the way a game is being developed. This is a public forum isn't it? I thought that was the purpose.

That's why I asked my initial question -- to gather some more information about the new system. But everything I've heard makes it sound like it's exactly the same as RQ2 battle magic, and I think that any distinct changes would be shown in the Quickstart. If they're not being tested now, I doubt they're going to be in a book released by this Christmas.

48 minutes ago, Psullie said:

As for HQG, everything uses the same mechanic - the flavour comes with the cult descriptions etc which from what we hear from Jeff in this forum are also included in the the new edition. I imagine that the Shaman's +9 benefit from using a charm once per session will have similar flavour element in the new edition considering the other elements already borrowed from HQG - but this is just a guess. 

All I was suggesting was, like HQG, the simplicity of the system enables adaptation for flavour - much like what Cults of Prax did for RQ2.

The flavor comes from the way you apply the mechanic (e.g., d100 or d20 rolls) to the game world. I won't repeat my arguments that I gave in my previous post, since this debate doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

I had hoped that Runequest will represent Gloranthan magic with a structured approach rather than leaving it simply to the GM to narrate as you suggest.

I'll be interested to read the Quickstart pdf on July 1st.

[Psullie]

4 minutes ago, kaydet said:

I think it's perfectly fair to ask questions and make comments about the way a game is being developed. This is a public forum isn't it? I thought that was the purpose.

That's why I asked my initial question -- to gather some more information about the new system. But everything I've heard makes it sound like it's exactly the same as RQ2 battle magic, and I think that any distinct changes would be shown in the Quickstart. If they're not being tested now, I doubt they're going to be in a book released by this Christmas.

The flavor comes from the way you apply the mechanic (e.g., d100 or d20 rolls) to the game world. I won't repeat my arguments that I gave in my previous post, since this debate doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

I had hoped that Runequest will represent Gloranthan magic with a structured approach rather than leaving it simply to the GM to narrate as you suggest.

I'll be interested to read the Quickstart pdf on July 1st.

Hi kaydet, I wasn't questioning your questions, just stating the limits of my knowledge on the matter. You are right to ask, which is why I started this thread in the first place. I think we share the same concerns about how the different systems will be handled. 

[kaydet]

I apologize for being brusk in my reply. I shouldn't have been so short.

In the end I think that HQ and RQ represent two different approaches to the world, one narrative and the other simulationist. I really hope that Chaosium makes full use of the detailed style they have access to, because they have a real chance to explore and explain Glorantha through a concrete system of rules and mechanics.

Edited June 26, 2017 by kaydet

[g33k]

On 6/26/2017 at 9:13 AM, kaydet said:

And that would be great for a game like Heroquest, where the whole point is to be vague and narrative-minded.

But this is Runequest, which to my mind should be mechanically simulating the workings of Glorantha as accurately and precisely as it can.

When Heroquest has more detailed and complex rules covering the handling and interaction of spirits, I think there's something wrong.

Different cultures may have different theoretical frameworks for the workings of spirit magic; in addition to the shortage of wordcount / pagecount, I think Chaosium has intentionally not pinned this down... And as with many metaphysical things in Glorantha, the real answer about "who's right" might be in the realm of "it's complicated" and "they're both right... AND wrong" &c...  There simply isn't room in the QS.

That said -- have you grabbed the 6th PC from Chaosium's site, Vishi Dun the Shaman?  Much more on spirits & spirit magic there.  Not the full rules, but much more than in the 48p QS...

Edited July 2, 2017 by g33k

[Runeblogger]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

That said -- have you grabbed the 6th PC from Chaosium's site, Vishi Dun the Shaman?  Much more on spirits & spirit magic there.  Not the full rules, but much more than in the 48p QS...

I have grabbed it and read it and even written about it in my updated review. 

[kaydet]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

Different cultures may have different theoretical frameworks for the workings of spirit magic; in addition to the shortage of wordcount / pagecount, I think Chaosium has intentionally not pinned this down... And as with many metaphysical things in Glorantha, the real answer about "who's right" might be in the realm of "it's complicated" and "they're both right... AND wrong" &c...  There simply isn't room in the QS.

Not speaking specifically about the Quickstart at all, and I understand that there is limited space. I'm just stating my hopes for the actual rules when they arrive.

To your point, though, I think that it is a false statement to say that explaining how a culture uses spirit magic is equivalent to revealing the "one truth" of Glorantha.

[Atgxtg]

On 6/26/2017 at 11:58 AM, styopa said:

That comparison goes way too far - Humakti aren't (necessarily) in any way 'good'.  They also represent that death is implacable, remorseless, and necessary.

Certainly they CAN be good people, but a regiment of Humakti would ALSO make the greatest stormtroopers ever.  

Yeah. Considering that Humakit get great magic for detecting ambushes, are some of the most skilled swordsmen,and tend to back it up with as much bladesharp as they wish to memorize, they are probably more likely to turn the opponents into "one-use" attackers , rather than being "one-use" guards.

They are among the last opponents in Glorantha that I'd want to ambush!

[g33k]

14 hours ago, kaydet said:

Not speaking specifically about the Quickstart at all, and I understand that there is limited space. I'm just stating my hopes for the actual rules when they arrive.

To your point, though, I think that it is a false statement to say that explaining how a culture uses spirit magic is equivalent to revealing the "one truth" of Glorantha.

Well, yeah!  I think we're all looking forward to the main rules...     And hoping for the kind of detail you seem to be wanting.

But I had understood (from your remarks upthread) that you WERE specifically speaking about the QS, and its lack of detail & flavor around spirit/battle magic, and suggesting that it "should" have been there.  My apologies if I misunderstood.

[kaydet]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

Well, yeah!  I think we're all looking forward to the main rules...     And hoping for the kind of detail you seem to be wanting.

But I had understood (from your remarks upthread) that you WERE specifically speaking about the QS, and its lack of detail & flavor around spirit/battle magic, and suggesting that it "should" have been there.  My apologies if I misunderstood.

When I was writing the above I hadn't yet had the opportunity to look through the quickstart rules. I have as of July 1, and I'm actually quite pleased with what I found.

That being said, my objection up-thread was mainly that Battle Magic from RQ2 was being relabeled as Spirit Magic, which struck me as being without much of the flavor that I associate with animistic spirit magic (even though, I suppose, it was always "spirit magic" back in RQ2). The accumulation of charms and the personal relationship with the various spirits is what makes that type of magic different and interesting to me, and it seems like those things are implicit in the rules rather than something that the players have to track and involve themselves with.

It would be much more interesting for me to have to choose which charms I wish to have with me on an adventure based on what I expect to confront. If the number of spirits an adventurer can have on his person at one time is limited, and if there is variability in the power and influence of different spirits, it would give players an incentive to hunt down different and more powerful spirits, and would make the possession of a guardian spirit (which might not take up one of your spirit "slots") all the more important and useful.

My other objection is that, as it stands, Rune Magic seems to be (mechanically speaking) simply a rarer and more powerful version of Spirit Magic, which I find less than ideal.

Again, these are just my thoughts on what I've seen and heard up to now, and it's quite possible that there are additional twists that are to be added in the final release. 

[styopa]

29 minutes ago, kaydet said:

It would be much more interesting for me to have to choose which charms I wish to have with me on an adventure based on what I expect to confront. If the number of spirits an adventurer can have on his person at one time is limited, and if there is variability in the power and influence of different spirits, it would give players an incentive to hunt down different and more powerful spirits, and would make the possession of a guardian spirit (which might not take up one of your spirit "slots") all the more important and useful.

You're pretty much essentially describing the gameplay of a Shaman or Shaman-wannabe.

30 minutes ago, kaydet said:

My other objection is that, as it stands, Rune Magic seems to be (mechanically speaking) simply a rarer and more powerful version of Spirit Magic, which I find less than ideal.

That's pretty much true.

[kaydet]

7 minutes ago, styopa said:

You're pretty much essentially describing the gameplay of a Shaman or Shaman-wannabe.

I'm describing how I believe spirit magic functions in Glorantha. Why would the mechanics of spirit magic differ between a shaman and a regular character?

8 minutes ago, styopa said:

That's pretty much true.

I know that -- which is why I made the statement I did. I'd like to see more of a mechanical difference between the two.