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Psullie

Quickstart Rune Magic & Spirit Magic

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1 hour ago, kaydet said:

I'm describing how I believe spirit magic functions in Glorantha. Why would the mechanics of spirit magic differ between a shaman and a regular character?

Because SPIRIT MAGIC (ala RQ, since forever) really has little to nothing to do with spirits, aside from the original mechanism you used to get the spells from spirits.

Shamans are the characters with the skills to deal directly with spirits as something other than a potential victim.

Where HQ went with 'what spirits do' is almost entirely a separate thing, mechanically, albeit with the same ontology.

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59 minutes ago, styopa said:

Because SPIRIT MAGIC (ala RQ, since forever) really has little to nothing to do with spirits, aside from the original mechanism you used to get the spells from spirits.

This statement is more than a little ridiculous to me. Why change its name to Spirit Magic if it has nothing to do with spirits? Do they just teach you the spell and then leave?

Anyway, my point, as always since this conversation started, has been that Spirit Magic should have more of that animistic flavor which you insist only shamans can interact with. I think a more involved approach would be much more interesting and engaging than the way it is currently presented.

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3 hours ago, kaydet said:

This statement is more than a little ridiculous to me. Why change its name to Spirit Magic if it has nothing to do with spirits? Do they just teach you the spell and then leave?

Anyway, my point, as always since this conversation started, has been that Spirit Magic should have more of that animistic flavor which you insist only shamans can interact with. I think a more involved approach would be much more interesting and engaging than the way it is currently presented.

Yeah, that's exactly what Spirit Magic was.  

Some people didn't want to carry the term Battle Magic forward because they felt it wasn't simply about combat...despite, well....ok, yeah, it 99% was about combat.  

RQ3 said that "Spirit magic is in many ways a quick mustering of life force to perform a task".  It says a connection to the Spirit Plane is important, but the only part that's referenced is because that's where the spells are learned.  Yes, you beat them, wring the spell from them, and then they go.  Literally, that's it.  (I don't know if even this mechanism will survive into RQG, I don't know personally a lot of people who actually played out the gaining of spirits through spirit combat...)

So the name's a misnomer.  Some people call it Common Magic, or Simple Magic, if you feel the word "Spirit" is throwing you off.

And no, I don't insist 'only shamans can interact with Spirits'.   That's the way RQ has, does, and (likely) will work.  It ain't me lobbying for it, that's just how the game is.  Rune Lords of various cults can get allied spirits bound into things, but in terms of spiritwalking, and interacting with spirits, that's what Shamans are FOR.  

 

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5 minutes ago, styopa said:

And no, I don't insist 'only shamans can interact with Spirits'.   That's the way RQ has, does, and (likely) will work.  It ain't me lobbying for it, that's just how the game is.  Rune Lords of various cults can get allied spirits bound into things, but in terms of spiritwalking, and interacting with spirits, that's what Shamans are FOR.  

My point, again, has never been to argue about how past Runequest editions have worked. I've simply been attempting to explain how I would like to see spirits and spirit magic handled in RQG.

Perhaps I'll just use the shaman rules for all PCs if the battle magic paradigm is still maintained.

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It would be better called Soul Magic, and Spirit Magic left for shamans.

Also I don't like having to roll to cast and then roll to resist... too much rolling, get rid of the casting roll, nobody wants to fail a spell casting. Its an archaic mechanism in this day of playability. (well, for me).

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20 hours ago, flynnkd said:

...I don't like having to roll to cast and then roll to resist... too much rolling, get rid of the casting roll, nobody wants to fail a spell casting. Its an archaic mechanism in this day of playability. (well, for me).

Whereas I really enjoy rolling to cast, because why should spell-casting be different from any other activity? The casting and resistance rolls serve the same function as the attack and parry/dodge rolls in combat, and while I don't like missing my attack roll, I wouldn't want to have automatic hits in combat, either.

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2 hours ago, trystero said:

Whereas I really enjoy rolling to cast, because why should spell-casting be different from any other activity? The casting and resistance rolls serve the same function as the attack and parry/dodge rolls in combat, and while I don't like missing my attack roll, I wouldn't want to have automatic hits in combat, either.

Spells even have specials and criticals (albeit fairly tepid ones), but no fumbles, sadly.

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My main problem with it is that you have 50% (for eg) to cast, and then 50% to resist, which means attack spells are half as effective as all other spells.  

It wasn't there before, why are they bringing in more rolls when most games these days are trying to remove them.

Anyway, its just an opinion, and not less valid for that.

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What is the problem of just having one roll: use that to see if you succeed with casting, then use that to compare against the opponent? 

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9 hours ago, flynnkd said:

It wasn't there before....

Huh?

It's always been:

1) roll to cast (spirit magic is POWx5%, Divine was 95% to case, Sorcery was...more complicated. :) )

2) roll to overcome the target's resistance for an attack spell

....for every type of magic: Spirit, Rune, Sorcery.

Note that the concept of resists helps the characters survive more than anything.  PCs have a LOT more spells cast at them than they cast at others.

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RQ1/2 Battle Magic always worked on oneself or inanimate objects or unconscious characters unless 96+ was rolled (p 33 in RQ2). It's a bit ambiguous in the rules but it looks like you always roll d100. But vs enemies you needed to overcome their POW. There is no mention of POWx5, that's an RQ3 thing I believe.

Rune Magic always went off in RQ1/2 too - you might need to overcome resistance though (p59-60 RQ2 makes no mention of needing to roll to cast Rune Magic and the example of Ariella & Rurik vs the Trolls on p63 doesn't mention it either)

Edited by d(sqrt(-1))

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Something I just noticed in the Quickstart, to cast a Spirit Spell you need to roll POW x 5 (as per RQ3). However, for the Resistance roll you also roll POW vs POW, rather than MP vs MP (p 18)

I guess that is intentional but it seems a fairly large change - in RQ2 Rune Lords always resisted will full POW, but now it looks like everyone does that.

The Rune Magic section just says that the caster has to overcome the target's POW using a resistance roll. Not explicit but I assume that also means that the caster uses POW?

However the Resistance Table section (p 6) explicitly says magic points vs magic points, so I wonder if the POW vs POW thing is a typo.

 

Edited by d(sqrt(-1))

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4 hours ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

 

Something I just noticed in the Quickstart, to cast a Spirit Spell you need to roll POW x 5 (as per RQ3). However, for the Resistance roll you also roll POW vs POW, rather than MP vs MP (p 18)

I guess that is intentional but it seems a fairly large change - in RQ2 Rune Lords always resisted will full POW, but now it looks like everyone does that.

The Rune Magic section just says that the caster has to overcome the target's POW using a resistance roll. Not explicit but I assume that also means that the caster uses POW?

However the Resistance Table section (p 6) explicitly says magic points vs magic points, so I wonder if the POW vs POW thing is a typo.

 

I remember someone talking about this a while ago... don't remember who. Something about trying to minimize the downward spiral that occurs once someone looses points in an MP vs. MP contest. 

And yes, different magic will use different target Stats. Some will target MP, some will target POW, depending upon the nature and source of the spell. 

SDLeary

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7 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I remember someone talking about this a while ago... don't remember who. Something about trying to minimize the downward spiral that occurs once someone looses points in an MP vs. MP contest. 

And yes, different magic will use different target Stats. Some will target MP, some will target POW, depending upon the nature and source of the spell. 

SDLeary

 

Sure, if everyone defends with full POW that's certainly possible, but it need to be clear in the text. Similarly if magic can target different resistance abilities (a la Fire Elemental) then the resistance section might need to say so.

The Resistance Roll section also says an adventurer may try to augment their chance of success with resistance roll by using and appropriate spell (presume Countermagic) or through the use of the Meditate skill. The Meditation sidebar says that mediation takes 1 hour and returns 1 MP, so I'm guessing that this is an indirect use of Meditation to give magic resistance, rather than actively doing so. Can a meditating character go above their normal MP using this? It used to be that you couldn't go over double MP AFAIK. If it means the section "Increasing the Casting chance", that says that the character can take no other action in the round that they use meditate, and that refers to casting chance.

Also, under "Increasing the casting chance" and Meditation it is defined that a mediating character can make a POWx3 roll to resist loss of concentration - however the Spirit Magic section on p18 just says that "If the caster's concentration is broken (e.g. by taking damage) they cannot cast the spell and must try again. It seems to me this would be a good place to also mention POW x 3 to avoid losing concentration as it's easy to miss otherwise.

Edited by d(sqrt(-1))

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5 hours ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

 

Sure, if everyone defends with full POW that's certainly possible, but it need to be clear in the text. Similarly if magic can target different resistance abilities (a la Fire Elemental) then the resistance section might need to say so.

The Resistance Roll section also says an adventurer may try to augment their chance of success with resistance roll by using and appropriate spell (presume Countermagic) or through the use of the Meditate skill. The Meditation sidebar says that mediation takes 1 hour and returns 1 MP, so I'm guessing that this is an indirect use of Meditation to give magic resistance, rather than actively doing so. Can a meditating character go above their normal MP using this? It used to be that you couldn't go over double MP AFAIK. If it means the section "Increasing the Casting chance", that says that the character can take no other action in the round that they use meditate, and that refers to casting chance.

Also, under "Increasing the casting chance" and Meditation it is defined that a mediating character can make a POWx3 roll to resist loss of concentration - however the Spirit Magic section on p18 just says that "If the caster's concentration is broken (e.g. by taking damage) they cannot cast the spell and must try again. It seems to me this would be a good place to also mention POW x 3 to avoid losing concentration as it's easy to miss otherwise.

POW doesn't change (except when sacrificing for your Cult), it's your MP that go up and down so any POW roll would be against it's full value.

I agree that at first reading the Resistance Roll on p18 is misleading by implying that the victim gets a roll, but this is not the case. The augment is to improve the strength of the spell by the caster. For example if your casting a spell and you have POW 16 and the target has POW 18. You have a 16x5 = 80% of casting the spell and a 40% chance of overcoming their natural resistance. You could Meditate first for 2 melee rounds and get either a +10% to the casing chance bringing the total to 90%, or get an augment roll on your Meditation Skill to get a modifier to the POW resistance roll, a +20% on a success for example, giving you a 60% chance to overcome their resistance.

IMO Meditation and Casting require different levels of attention but it would be your call as to what constitutes an interuption during casting, for me taking damage wouldn't even require a roll to say start again.

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1 hour ago, Psullie said:

IMO Meditation and Casting require different levels of attention but it would be your call as to what constitutes an interuption during casting, for me taking damage wouldn't even require a roll to say start again.

Of course, you could dance or sing which are also ruled as ways to help spellcasting, which actually give you on average a BETTER augment than meditate at equivalent skills.  Just sayin'.

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39 minutes ago, styopa said:

Of course, you could dance or sing which are also ruled as ways to help spellcasting, which actually give you on average a BETTER augment than meditate at equivalent skills.  Just sayin'.

You haven't seen me dance or heard me sing then !! :lol:

But yes, you could chose to Augment your casting chance and roll the dice or play safe and guarantee smaller bonus but the Resistance roll can only by augmented by Meditate if I read the relevant bits right

Edited by Psullie

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On 7/3/2017 at 6:38 PM, kaydet said:

I'm describing how I believe spirit magic functions in Glorantha. Why would the mechanics of spirit magic differ between a shaman and a regular character?

Its the difference between a professional and a dabbler. In RQ2 and RQ3 the Shaman used the same game mechanics as a regular character, but had addional perks that gave him more power and flexibility. Your "Guardian Spirit" concept is pretty similar to the Shaman's Fetch.

 

But we should all keep in mind that there is bound to be more to all this than what we got in the Quickstart. I suspect in order to make the quickstart functional, they streamlined and dropped a lot of RQ2/RQ3 type rules that are in the full game.

 

Edited by Atgxtg
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3 hours ago, Psullie said:

You haven't seen me dance or heard me sing then !! :lol:

But yes, you could chose to Augment your casting chance and roll the dice or play safe and guarantee smaller bonus but the Resistance roll can only by augmented by Meditate if I read the relevant bits right

Not sure about the resistance thing, but you still have to succeed with meditate just like you have to succeed with dance.  

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5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Its the difference between a professional and a dabbler. In RQ2 and RQ3 the Shaman used the same game mechanics as a regular character, but had addional perks that gave him more power and flexibility. Your "Guardian Spirit" concept is pretty similar to the Shaman's Fetch.

I don't think it's "my" concept; I'm pretty sure Guardian Spirits have been around since RQ2.

What I am picturing involves a regular adventurer having charms that contain spirits. He cannot create these charms, nor trap spirits into them -- that is the realm of a shaman. By touching these charms and speaking the name of the spirit, he can release them into the world in order to aid him. These spirits allow him certain abilities when they are released; one might guide his blade in combat, or make him fleet of foot; another might hide the tracks he makes in snow or sand.

He is limited in the number of charms he can carry, and the strength of the spirits housed within them. A shaman can carry more and stronger spirits, and can travel the spirit world to find and create such charms as he might wish.

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+Kaydet, you are playing HeroQuest. :)

However I agree, there are some really neat narrative mechanisms in HQ that could be easily converted to RQ mechanics, and fit beautifully.

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@flynnkd I'm not playing Heroquest... I'm picturing how Glorantha functions. If Glorantha "works" a certain way, I don't see why Runequest shouldn't replicate that through its mechanics.

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2 hours ago, kaydet said:

@flynnkd I'm not playing Heroquest... I'm picturing how Glorantha functions. If Glorantha "works" a certain way, I don't see why Runequest shouldn't replicate that through its mechanics.

When you DM, there's nothing stopping you describing your version of Glorantha in your terms.  YGMV.  

As a player, I admit I'd wonder why - if a 'disrupt' is actually a spirit flying forth to damage a target - spells like Spirit Screen and Spirit Block don't protect me from that damage?  Or prevent that spirit guiding his blade from hitting me?  Or why my fetch (if I'm a shaman, for example) couldn't see/catch/kill/eat such spirits. 

But in your world, maybe they do?  Or you have a reason they don't?  I'd genuinely enjoy hearing how such a world works, it sounds terrifically evocative.

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