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Terraforming Mars in 100 years


clarence

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15 hours ago, Matt_E said:

Ah.  You said "solar", so I was not thinking about cosmic rays.  Yes, the more, the better, as far as that goes, and any/every molecule counts, as a massive deflecting body.  I would not call UV radiation "quotidian" (you do wear sunscreen, right?), but it is certainly less energetic.

If you're going down that road, there is also the magnetosphere to consider.  I don't know about that, for Mars.

 

"Quotidian" was a word I used because it is radiation that occurs every day, while x and gamma rays resulting from solar flares is not an everyday occurence. Generating a magnetic field for Mars would be something that would be good for protection. :)

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10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Mainly because here on Earth the magnetism of the molten core deals with some of those issues.

Lower gravity might cause a lower density in higher layers of the atmosphere, too. Our ozone layer is created several kilometers up.

 

I wonder whether radiation control needs to be left to the atmosphere, though. Leaving Mars in its current orbit means that there is less desirable light available than a terraformed surface might want, so a mirror array like Kim Stanley Robinson's L1 Soletta could be a good idea. Now if that array was selective in what radiation it would let through from the sun, the major source for unwanted radiation activity would be under control. The array system would need to be able to react to changes in the incoming light. It might even convert the energy from "unwanted" emissions of the sun into an artificial magnetic field through photovoltaics.

Even with a soletta you would need some form of protection from solar flare radiation, since Mars has a very thin atmosphere, and no magnetic field worthy of the name. :)

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2 hours ago, Conrad said:

Even with a soletta you would need some form of protection from solar flare radiation, since Mars has a very thin atmosphere, and no magnetic field worthy of the name. :)

Which is why my last sentence suggested to use the peak power of solar events to create an artificial magnetic field in the L1 area, which is interposed between the source of the flare and its target, and towards the planet.

You'd need reflectors with photo-voltaic cells eliminating those wavelength that would harm the martian ecosphere, probably already ongoing under normal conditions, and ready to ramp it up as soon as the flare (which intensifies the intensity of such wavelengths) arrives.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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19 hours ago, g33k said:

Such a band will need something to keep accelrating it.  The mag field, as it interacts with stuff, will tend to slow the band.

Sure, something like Bussard attitude thrusters, capture enough free hydrogen, and have it work autonomously.

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4 hours ago, dragoner said:

Sure, something like Bussard attitude thrusters, capture enough free hydrogen, and have it work autonomously.

I suspect the physics of that wouldn't work out; I'd consider it heavy to handwavium-based construction, and "space opera."  OTOH, if the entire game were "space opera," I'd be OK with that, too...

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1 hour ago, g33k said:

I suspect the physics of that wouldn't work out; I'd consider it heavy to handwavium-based construction, and "space opera."  OTOH, if the entire game were "space opera," I'd be OK with that, too...

It would work, the physics are fine, it is a rotating ring.

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1 hour ago, dragoner said:

It would work, the physics are fine, it is a rotating ring.

I'd want to delve in deeper.  There is a LOT of drag from mag-field interactions -- look e.g. at "regenerative braking" on hybrid & electric cars, and various other moving magnetic rings whose moving mag-field interact with physical objects... it's a LOT of drag, potentially!  Bussard collectors have their own "drag" from gathering the material; they then throw in a lot of energy to accelerate the materal & overcome the drag, but I'd need to actually calculate all that extra drag (vs the net gain from bussard thrusters) before I trusted the concept.

Last but not least, Bussard tech needs VERY fast movement; 50 million KPH is a likely minimum.  Anything that separates from the ring is going to be a MAJOR kinetic weapon, operating in close proximity to the planet.

 

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13 minutes ago, g33k said:

I'd want to delve in deeper.  There is a LOT of drag from mag-field interactions -- look e.g. at "regenerative braking" on hybrid & electric cars, and various other moving magnetic rings whose moving mag-field interact with physical objects... it's a LOT of drag, potentially!  Bussard collectors have their own "drag" from gathering the material; they then throw in a lot of energy to accelerate the materal & overcome the drag, but I'd need to actually calculate all that extra drag (vs the net gain from bussard thrusters) before I trusted the concept.

Last but not least, Bussard tech needs VERY fast movement; 50 million KPH is a likely minimum.  Anything that separates from the ring is going to be a MAJOR kinetic weapon, operating in close proximity to the planet.

 

The protoplanetary disk, or remnants of, have left plenty of free hydrogen in the solar system. The thrusters would only have to fire occasionally to maintain the ring's rotational velocity. Time and hydrogen density are the key elements, no need for such high velocity; and inertial momentum will sustain it for the most part.

The main drag will be from gravity, as it's purpose is to create only enough of a magnetic field for a magnetosphere. Reactive drag against Mars' weak magnetic field will be minimal. 

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3 hours ago, dragoner said:

The protoplanetary disk, or remnants of, have left plenty of free hydrogen in the solar system. The thrusters would only have to fire occasionally to maintain the ring's rotational velocity. Time and hydrogen density are the key elements, no need for such high velocity; and inertial momentum will sustain it for the most part.

The main drag will be from gravity, as it's purpose is to create only enough of a magnetic field for a magnetosphere. Reactive drag against Mars' weak magnetic field will be minimal. 

So basically the magnetic field could be produced from photovoltaics rather than from hydrogen fusion, and since these satellites would be in an orbit, they could receive passive acceleration via a laser or mirror array somewhere in the L1 region or several arrays in areostationary orbit sending extra light to a receptor area (which could be its PV wings).

The question is whether the satellites need power when going into the shadow behind Mars. If not, a single feeder array at L1 and some limited storage capacity would be sufficient.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

So basically the magnetic field could be produced from photovoltaics rather than from hydrogen fusion, and since these satellites would be in an orbit, they could receive passive acceleration via a laser or mirror array somewhere in the L1 region or several arrays in areostationary orbit sending extra light to a receptor area (which could be its PV wings).

The question is whether the satellites need power when going into the shadow behind Mars. If not, a single feeder array at L1 and some limited storage capacity would be sufficient.

Thrust could be from a magnetoplasmadynamic thruster, or even a plain reaction rocket, hydrogen would probably be better used as a fuel cell, store it long term in a metal hydride lattice; solar power is good too. It would need more attitude control than actual rotational acceleration, eventually without thrust it would tidally lock and de-orbit, but that could be thousands of years. Same effect of generating a magnetosphere could be done with a satellite array, I suppose; I think the ring structure is more mechanically sound. Plus, one can attach tethers at points to the surface for transportation nodes, like spokes in a wheel, thus a multiple use structure. It is interesting when hard science is mistaken for space opera, most likely means the sci-fi is on the right track.

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57 minutes ago, dragoner said:

Thrust could be from a magnetoplasmadynamic thruster, or even a plain reaction rocket, hydrogen would probably be better used as a fuel cell, store it long term in a metal hydride lattice; solar power is good too. It would need more attitude control than actual rotational acceleration, eventually without thrust it would tidally lock and de-orbit, but that could be thousands of years.

My photonic pulse idea was tailored for discrete satellites and target areas angled to the beam in order to generate the best resulting vector.

57 minutes ago, dragoner said:

Same effect of generating a magnetosphere could be done with a satellite array, I suppose; I think the ring structure is more mechanically sound.

Even a ring just spanning Mars would have to be made of Unobtainium at the moment. That's part of the reason why Larry Niven's Ringworld had to use an Unobtainium named Scrith. However, once it was in the story, Niven made good use of its properties.

Stabilizing a ring that is starting to swing out of sync is anything but trivial and probably requires huge arrays of attitude jets. For a less advanced material technology, I would go for discrete satellites.

 

57 minutes ago, dragoner said:

Plus, one can attach tethers at points to the surface for transportation nodes, like spokes in a wheel, thus a multiple use structure.

Basically your shelf in orbit, ready to act as zero G transshipping point, maintenance yard, production facility tether etc?

While such ginormous ring structures sure look impressive, I wonder whether separate modules linked by a railgun-and-capture shuttle system would be easier to maintain. I would mirror all energy in, either directly via focal mirror arrays, or pre-processed as coherent light optimized for my receptors from a tailing or leading platform, beamed at an angle that avoids intersection with the planetary surface (and preferably at wavelengths that would be absorbed, dissipated (fluorescence) or reflected by the planetary atmosphere if off their aim).

 

Any major space installation can be made into a planet-harming missile with sufficient malice, but so can any piece of debris aimed at a planet or installation. Developed planets will still have them, but will provide protocols and failsafes that avoid major ecocide and impact damage.

 

57 minutes ago, dragoner said:

It is interesting when hard science is mistaken for space opera, most likely means the sci-fi is on the right track.

I didn't think about this before - how would you orient this artificial magnetic field? My initial idea was to create a magnetical torus around the planetary equator, with evenly spread satellites contributing to the shape. Does it matter whether you have a magnetic pole through the planet or a torus around it?

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

My photonic pulse idea was tailored for discrete satellites and target areas angled to the beam in order to generate the best resulting vector.

Even a ring just spanning Mars would have to be made of Unobtainium at the moment. That's part of the reason why Larry Niven's Ringworld had to use an Unobtainium named Scrith. However, once it was in the story, Niven made good use of its properties.

Stabilizing a ring that is starting to swing out of sync is anything but trivial and probably requires huge arrays of attitude jets. For a less advanced material technology, I would go for discrete satellites.

 

Basically your shelf in orbit, ready to act as zero G transshipping point, maintenance yard, production facility tether etc?

While such ginormous ring structures sure look impressive, I wonder whether separate modules linked by a railgun-and-capture shuttle system would be easier to maintain. I would mirror all energy in, either directly via focal mirror arrays, or pre-processed as coherent light optimized for my receptors from a tailing or leading platform, beamed at an angle that avoids intersection with the planetary surface (and preferably at wavelengths that would be absorbed, dissipated (fluorescence) or reflected by the planetary atmosphere if off their aim).

 

Any major space installation can be made into a planet-harming missile with sufficient malice, but so can any piece of debris aimed at a planet or installation. Developed planets will still have them, but will provide protocols and failsafes that avoid major ecocide and impact damage.

 

I didn't think about this before - how would you orient this artificial magnetic field? My initial idea was to create a magnetical torus around the planetary equator, with evenly spread satellites contributing to the shape. Does it matter whether you have a magnetic pole through the planet or a torus around it?

 

I think a Torus would work.

Without a solid, rigid structure, there is no need for scrith. A flexible lightweight truss structure made from a poly-spider silk type material, construction spider drones could 3D print it place. Rigidity is often mistaken for strength, except when scaling steel's specific density is too high to support it's mass; there is an old Zen koan: "I shall bend like a reed in the wind", flexible structures are often stronger. If more rigidity is needed, shear strength can be added by gusseting the webbing of the trusses using lightweight cross grain carbon fiber panels. Past its own weight, it only needs cabling, some sort of lightweight super-conductive material, which also becomes easier in space. Attitude thrusters do not seem an insurmountable barrier to the ring's structural stability; there are also gyroscopic attitude control systems.

Nodal transportation networks are more efficient, that is why they are used today, and looking at 99% of energy (cost) used to reach orbit, anything that lessens that is golden. Another bonus is that the tethers can be used to launch vehicles once in orbit by merely imparting the existing momentum with the tether acting as a lever arm.

Most debris would burn up in the atmosphere, and any debris would be a bigger threat to the ring as well. Barring the ever present waiting catastrophe, it would still be done, there is always a measure of risk in any project.

As an engineer I love these discussion because I can imagine the future me travelling over the structure in some pod such as from 2001: working from 3D holographic schematics, checking the connections, and directing the spider robots. Retire on Mars to look up into the sky, and see your accomplishment.

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18 hours ago, dragoner said:

The protoplanetary disk, or remnants of, have left plenty of free hydrogen in the solar system. The thrusters would only have to fire occasionally to maintain the ring's rotational velocity. Time and hydrogen density are the key elements, no need for such high velocity; and inertial momentum will sustain it for the most part.

The main drag will be from gravity, as it's purpose is to create only enough of a magnetic field for a magnetosphere. Reactive drag against Mars' weak magnetic field will be minimal. 

Every atom of hydrogen "captured" -- and there will be megatonnes of it (eventually giga- tera- etc) -- is functionally "drag" as the ring grabs it and accelerates it to ring velocity, to use as fuel and/or reaction mass... slowing the ring as it does so.  F=ma is brutal and inescapable.

Yes, throwing in a gajillion or so joules of energy (solar arrays, fusion plants, dilithium-mediated matter/antimatter reactors, whatever) to accelerate that fuel can more than overcome this; but drag from mag-field material capture is going to be a huge factor.  Atoms & molecules of non-fuel (if any, maybe our thrusters can use any matter) would be PURE drag, unrecoverable as energized thrust.

Again:  I haven't done the math (and the N-of-thust vs N-of-drag is a question involving how much-if-any handwavium is involved), but my gut check says this factor is going to be substantial.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I didn't think about this before - how would you orient this artificial magnetic field? My initial idea was to create a magnetical torus around the planetary equator, with evenly spread satellites contributing to the shape. Does it matter whether you have a magnetic pole through the planet or a torus around it?

Since the structure had been stated as a "ring" I had just been presuming it was a REALLY huge magnetic donut.  :)

Interestingly, this would seem to solve another problem:  drift / attitude adjusment / etc can be done from the surface, by temporarily generating a mag-field and pushing the ring back into place.  It's possible that ANY orbiting mag-field objects (ring, satellite, etc) could be remotely adjusted in the same manner...

 

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1 hour ago, g33k said:

Every atom of hydrogen "captured" -- and there will be megatonnes of it (eventually giga- tera- etc) -- is functionally "drag" as the ring grabs it and accelerates it to ring velocity, to use as fuel and/or reaction mass... slowing the ring as it does so.  F=ma is brutal and inescapable.

Yes, throwing in a gajillion or so joules of energy (solar arrays, fusion plants, dilithium-mediated matter/antimatter reactors, whatever) to accelerate that fuel can more than overcome this; but drag from mag-field material capture is going to be a huge factor.  Atoms & molecules of non-fuel (if any, maybe our thrusters can use any matter) would be PURE drag, unrecoverable as energized thrust.

Again:  I haven't done the math (and the N-of-thust vs N-of-drag is a question involving how much-if-any handwavium is involved), but my gut check says this factor is going to be substantial.

 

Every system has entropy, thus the eventual heat death of the universe. However, I wouldn't call the mass of hydrogen substantial, no. F=ma, or Newton's 2nd Law, also states that a body in motion has a tendency to stay in motion. 99% of the total energy used will be during initial acceleration.

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9 hours ago, dragoner said:

Without a solid, rigid structure, there is no need for scrith. A flexible lightweight truss structure made from a poly-spider silk type material...

This implies there isn't all that much actual mass in the ring itself.

Less energy to initially-accelerate, less energy to re-accelerate / attitude-adjust / etc for ongoing purposes.  These are very good things, I think...

But also less mass to "resist drag" (aka "stay in motion") of various kinds; so the ring will slow down more, need thrust more-often and/or longer-duration.  And less structural integrity to fasten thrusters to, so it will need lower-intensity thrust (again implying thrust has to happen more often, and/or for longer duration).

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5 minutes ago, g33k said:

This implies there isn't all that much actual mass in the ring itself.

Less energy to initially-accelerate, less energy to re-accelerate / attitude-adjust / etc for ongoing purposes.  These are very good things, I think...

But also less mass to "resist drag" (aka "stay in motion") of various kinds; so the ring will slow down more, need thrust more-often and/or longer-duration.  And less structural integrity to fasten thrusters to, so it will need lower-intensity thrust (again implying thrust has to happen more often, and/or for longer duration).

No, that is an incorrect assumption, it will have mass. Drag will be minimal as well, in understanding forces: "electromagnetic forces tend to cancel each other out when large collections of objects are considered, so over the largest distances (on the scale of planets and galaxies), gravity tends to be the dominant force." It would have high structural integrity; it is a common layman's mistake to confuse solid materials with structural strength. 

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2 hours ago, dragoner said:

Every system has entropy, thus the eventual heat death of the universe. However, I wouldn't call the mass of hydrogen substantial, no.

If the gathered mass is used as a reaction-mass for the thrusters, then there needs to be enough mass to make a difference; the fact that hydrogen is low-mass-per-particle is irrelevant, you still need sheer mass.

Advantage goes to thrust over drag, of course:  thrusters will be adding a LOT of energy to that reaction-mass; but I'm not as confident as you seem to be, that the magnetic-based radiation-shielding won't have substantial unwanted magnetic-braking effects.

OTOH, I see upthread the idea of surface tethers (aka "beanstalk" / "space elevator") implying the ring is rotating geosynchronously... which is MUCH slower than I had been envisioning, frankly!  This adds a whole new suite of gravitational / structural / rotational considerations both for construction and for ongoing operations.  It's possible my head is beginning to hurt...   ;-)

Edited by g33k
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1 minute ago, dragoner said:

No, that is an incorrect assumption, it will have mass.

Oh, obviously!  I just meant that a spidersilk-esque "tension fiber" design would likely be dramatically lower-mass than most rigid structures; I suppose some carbon-tube structures might offer both rigidity and low-mass...

3 minutes ago, dragoner said:

Drag will be minimal as well, in understanding forces: "electromagnetic forces tend to cancel each other out when large collections of objects are considered, so over the largest distances (on the scale of planets and galaxies), gravity tends to be the dominant force."

But this won't really be on that scale... it is essentially a grand-scale planet-based object moving collectively/synchronously, not "a large collection of objects" with potential for randomness to "cancel each other out."

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3 minutes ago, g33k said:

... the fact that hydrogen is low-mass-per-particle is irrelevant ...

... substantial unwanted magnetic-braking ...

No, hydrogen is extremely energy dense, so mass isn't irrelevant. However, there won't be substantial magnetic braking, as on the planetary scale, electromagnetism isn't an issue. The tethers won't necessarily be a rigid connection either.

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1 hour ago, dragoner said:

No, hydrogen is extremely energy dense, so mass isn't irrelevant.

Hmmm.  We seem to have been talking somewhat at cross-purposes!

I have been presuming the hydrogen's "primary" use would be as reaction-mass, with the energy-of-acceleration coming from another source; from that perspective, mass is mass.  When you speak of hydrogen as being "energy dense" I presume you're primarily considering it as fusion material or other fuel?  I had been presuming that solar or other tech would be the primary energy source.

Of course, as a controlled-fusion-jet I suppose it could be both "energetic fuel" and "reaction mass"...  Very efficient!  :D

1 hour ago, dragoner said:

However, there won't be substantial magnetic braking, as on the planetary scale, electromagnetism isn't an issue.

The electromagnetism won't much affect the mass of the planet, it's true.  But when you talk about using a magnetic field to gather hydrogen Bussard-style, the mag field will generate "drag" or "braking".

In some analyses, the drag is sufficient that a Bussard ramject isn't even possible.

1 hour ago, dragoner said:

The tethers won't necessarily be a rigid connection either.

I would presume SOME level of flexion/stretching/etc would be unavoidable.  Any "ideal" degree or type(s) of non-rigidity would obviously be hypothetical. 

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1 hour ago, g33k said:

Hmmm.  We seem to have been talking somewhat at cross-purposes!

I have been presuming the hydrogen's "primary" use would be as reaction-mass, with the energy-of-acceleration coming from another source; from that perspective, mass is mass.  When you speak of hydrogen as being "energy dense" I presume you're primarily considering it as fusion material or other fuel?  I had been presuming that solar or other tech would be the primary energy source.

Of course, as a controlled-fusion-jet I suppose it could be both "energetic fuel" and "reaction mass"...  Very efficient!  :D

The electromagnetism won't much affect the mass of the planet, it's true.  But when you talk about using a magnetic field to gather hydrogen Bussard-style, the mag field will generate "drag" or "braking".

In some analyses, the drag is sufficient that a Bussard ramject isn't even possible.

I would presume SOME level of flexion/stretching/etc would be unavoidable.  Any "ideal" degree or type(s) of non-rigidity would obviously be hypothetical. 

Free hydrogen is best stored in a fuel cell and used to power gyros or mpdt's. A fusion rocket's exhaust is radioactive, thus going against what you are trying to do in the first place, in creating a magnetosphere.

Magnetic fields in and of themselves do not have drag, esp in vacuum. The drag would come from the mass of the  hydrogen, which you stated the mass of is irrelevant. You can't have it both ways.

Bussards are not as great for some things as some sci-fi authors make them out to be, due to the lack of hydrogen in interstellar and intergalactic space. This is not one of those situations, however.

A rigid connection between the ring and tether or not, the pendulum effect means during the forward swing the tether will match velocity with the ring allowing transport between the two.

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20 hours ago, dragoner said:

Free hydrogen is best stored in a fuel cell and used to power gyros or mpdt's

Given our sci-fi setting, I'd skip fuel-cell and go straight to metallic H2 for storage & fuel...  :D  Yes, industrial-scale use of metallic hydrogen involves some hand-wave, as we currently have no way to engineer it at scale.  But the principles have been demonstrated in labs, so I consider it solidly within the realm of "hard science" fiction.

20 hours ago, dragoner said:

A fusion rocket's exhaust is radioactive, thus going against what you are trying to do in the first place, in creating a magnetosphere.

Umm... what are you fusing (into what) :blink: ?   The classic [ H --> He ] fusion reaction does NOT have radioactive fused material; if you put hydrogen fuel into a fusion jet that emits high-speed helium as its reaction mass, you have no worries about the exhaust (the fusion reaction itself does have non-trivial neutron flux that IS a worry).

20 hours ago, dragoner said:

Magnetic fields in and of themselves do not have drag, esp in vacuum. The drag would come from the mass of the  hydrogen ...

Everything you gather into the ring via magnetic field is "drag".  Anything with magnetic interactions (and that will include bits of the atmosphere) that the mag-field sweeps through, even if it doesn't ingather, will also generate drag.  It will add up...

As I mentioned, some analyses of Bussard-tech say the mag-field generates more drag than the engine can deliver thrust, so I'm not inclined to find this a negligible issue!

20 hours ago, dragoner said:

The drag would come from the mass of the  hydrogen, which you stated the mass of is irrelevant. You can't have it both ways.

My apologies; I seem to have been unclear again... I was never saying the mass of the hydrogen (or any mass) was irrelevant.  The mass which was much-less than I had been thinking was the mass of the ring itself:  if we assume your tensioned-fiber ring (instead of the "solid structure" ring I had originally envisioned) then the ring almost-certainly is at least an order of magnitude lower-mass (and maybe 2-3 orders of magnitude) than I had envisioned.

 

Edited by g33k
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9 hours ago, g33k said:

Umm... what are you fusing (into what) :blink: ?   The classic [ H --> He ] fusion reaction does NOT have radioactive fused material; if you put hydrogen fuel into a fusion jet that emits high-speed helium as its reaction mass, you have no worries about the exhaust (the fusion reaction itself does have non-trivial neutron flux that IS a worry).

The Helium nucleus is an Alpha Particle. If you emit a stream of doubly ionized Helium then you are emitting a streeam of high-energy alpha particles.

I am not sure if fusion also produces gamma rays.

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15 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Helium nucleus is an Alpha Particle. If you emit a stream of doubly ionized Helium then you are emitting a streeam of high-energy alpha particles.

I am not sure if fusion also produces gamma rays.


While nuclei of He are indeed Alpha particles, I don't find this too worrisome:  they are among the least-penetrant form of particles, and you're (presumably) emitting the elelectrons with them, so they will naturally recombine into atomic & molecular helium in relatively short order.

Fusion produces relatively-intense neutron bombardment, but methods of stopping neutron radiation are well known so it shouldn't escape the reactor; half-life of free neutrons is relatively short (minutes, not years).  Neutrons DO however often make stuff they interact with into radioactive material, often with much longer half-life than the neutrons themselves (this may be their primary danger, but I won't categorically say that as it exceeds my knowlege) -- fusion reactor cores will become radioactive waste (but should be trivially-disposed of in outer space (an excentric orbit to the sun seems like an obvious option).

Gamma is typically an output of fission, not fusion.

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