Combat Rounds: is it 12 or really 6

[RMS]

Feints, footwork, bobbing and weaving is all part of the principles of fighting, but none of it is considerd an actual physical attack. A fenit could be used to "psych" your opponent into lowering his left arm, but it's the right cross that's going to actually knock him out...BURP:D

True. However, RQ was specific in that the single roll for an attack in combat was to represent the culmination of attempts to injure the opponent in the round. It does not represent a single swing, but represents several. It's just abstracted to a single die roll. Note that without that, none of the rules on multiple attacks/round make much sense. That may no appease you, but at least realize that you aren't swinging once per 12 seconds, but are swinging multiple times per round, maneuvering, etc. RQ/BRP doesn't get into the details.

As noted, GURPS attempts to run all of the details, but ends up with fights that are too fast (and it's a bit unwieldy due to all the specialized rules in place IMO).

[Publius]

I have to sympathize with Jason Durall here, it is a devilish thing to have to decide whether to break with a long-standing system or venture into more 'realistic' territory. I have discussed this problem briefly with other game designers at cons and such, it can be a bit touchy either way you go. I think you did fine here.

On another level, I do agree that 12 seconds is a bit long. I don't know if I would go "too long" or not, since it really is a bit arbitrary anyway. Making the combat rounds 6 seconds sounds perfectly reasonable and for some that is still too long. (The old GURPS 1 second combat rounds are brutal though) I contemplated making a shift, but left it as-is fr now.

The real problem with game balance is in firearms, and there really are not that many decent ways to handle this issue because ultimately play-balance and that sort of thing starts to really suffer if you use realism.

Of course, and I am sure your army/cop friend will vouch for this, firearm accuracy in actual combat situations is abyssmal. R. Talsorians old Friday Night Firefight was a wake-up for me on that one. The rounds might be unloaded, but the person firing would not have a 50%-80% chace to hit either. The audience we are dealing with is one that is used to movies and other action fare where you can hang upside down or jump through a window or some other act of certifiable insanity and yet hit the target in the eye every time (unless of course you are a bad guy which means you have to unload several cips before you score the obligatory shoulder wound on the protagonist).

So time, accuracy and wounds are not realistic. Realism sucks anyway. They (a) allow for cinematic verisimilitude and ( don't frustrate the %$#! out of players. Again though, it isn;t easy, any decision has it's detractors. Remember Twilight 2000 1st Edition, where it was assumed each "shot" was 3 rounds? The cries from that can still be heard in some remote European Wastes.

[Jason D]

Of course, and I am sure your army/cop friend will vouch for this, firearm accuracy in actual combat situations is abyssmal.

I remember long ago reading of an incident where a perpetrator with a concealed pistol opened fire on his arresting police officer.

The officer pulled his own firearm and each of them emptied their clips at one another, with neither of them hit. The officer then reloaded and the perp surrendered.

The twist was that perp was in the back seat of a police car, firing through the mesh at the officer in the front seat, who was firing back. Two men, shooting at a distance of roughly 4 feet at one another, missed almost 16 times between them.

[CruelDespot]

Ya'll want the answer?

Cthulhu Dark Ages, Baby...

"...each round last several to a dozen or so seconds. A combat round is a deliberately elastic unit of time in which every character wishing to act who is capable of action has the chance to complete at least one action." -p39

BAM!

[Dredj]

In any case, I think a round should last as long as you need for it to last in Basic Roleplaying, but for the purposes of describing how much ground you can cover before actions happen at distance, you may want to see how shortening it could affect/distort the Movement Rate.

Yep, those darn Movement Rates tied to combat rounds were always an irritation.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Yep, those darn Movement Rates tied to combat rounds were always an irritation.

I expect that most people didn't and don't play it by the book. However, that comes up every now and then in "Call of Cthulhu" because you really don't want to be in melee range with those critters, and GMs have to decide if they want to play it BTB or wing it and give the investigators a few rounds to let loose (before they realize it's immune to bullets).

Edited August 6, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth

[mrk]

True. However, RQ was specific in that the single roll for an attack in combat was to represent the culmination of attempts to injure the opponent in the round. It does not represent a single swing, but represents several. It's just abstracted to a single die roll. Note that without that, none of the rules on multiple attacks/round make much sense. That may no appease you, but at least realize that you aren't swinging once per 12 seconds, but are swinging multiple times per round, maneuvering, etc. RQ/BRP doesn't get into the details.

As noted, GURPS attempts to run all of the details, but ends up with fights that are too fast (and it's a bit unwieldy due to all the specialized rules in place IMO).

I understand the concept that a combat round is the total sum( good and bad) of one's combative efforts againt an opponit, but this idea works better in a wargame were your in control of a large number of troops then individual personalities. You don't fight for 12 seconds and only receive a cut on your foot. You can get get hit once, twice, three times and more in various amounts of damage on your anatomy.

Look, I'm not saying melee rounds needs to be played out in real time inch by inch, but it should be viewed a bit more closer to reality then how its currently perceived. And if changes need to be made or additional rules should be created, then so be it! Especially if your going for a modular system to fit a wide variety of genres like BRP is doing.

Edited August 6, 2008 by mrk

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Let me take an informal poll within this thread: Does any GM here stick to the rulebook definition of a round or do they play it with a little rubber band and duct tape like the rest of us?

[Sunwolfe]

Spit and bailing wire...fudge here, fudge there...action finished/begun.

Was it canon? Hmmm, well...maybe.

Was it fun...hellzyeah!

Bingo! :thumb:

For me, that's the beauty of BRP: it's flexible enough to handle my--be it hallmarked by ineptitude or inattention to detail--attempts to employ the system.

Slainte',

Sunwolfe

[Trifletraxor]

Well, I don't want to insult any of the original creators of RQ, but I do feel they may of had a narrow point of view do to their own experiences and training. Anyway, just like I mentioned above, so much goes on in six seconds between two people let alone one. The average beginning Character in RQ/RPG get's one attack per combat round--that's one strike for every 12 seconds which in real time is BEYOND slow.

6 seconds might be a better length (actually I think it's better), but as allready been said, would not include time for circling, waiting for opening that you would find in f.ex. a knifefight, where attacking presents a very big risk of opening yourself to attack.

SGL.

[Nightshade]

I remember long ago reading of an incident where a perpetrator with a concealed pistol opened fire on his arresting police officer.

The officer pulled his own firearm and each of them emptied their clips at one another, with neither of them hit. The officer then reloaded and the perp surrendered.

The twist was that perp was in the back seat of a police car, firing through the mesh at the officer in the front seat, who was firing back. Two men, shooting at a distance of roughly 4 feet at one another, missed almost 16 times between them.

Yeah, that's pretty much the poster incident for how easy it is to miss with firearms in real combat; its not just an aberration either (though it is extreme); an awful lot of fire is sort of vaguely flung at targets to try and get them to keep their heads down more than actually expecting to hit. This is even more true in military situations.

[Nightshade]

Let me take an informal poll within this thread: Does any GM here stick to the rulebook definition of a round or do they play it with a little rubber band and duct tape like the rest of us?

I pretty much treated it as-was when I was running RQ; I saw some problems with the duration, but that was true with every other game I was running during the same periods, so I just sort of shrugged and sucked it up. I don't really like variable length MR durations personally, as I think they tend to cause ripple effects in other parts of the system.

[Nightshade]

6 seconds might be a better length (actually I think it's better), but as allready been said, would not include time for circling, waiting for opening that you would find in f.ex. a knifefight, where attacking presents a very big risk of opening yourself to attack.

SGL.

Yeah. GURPS tried to avoid this by going to 1 second rounds, and the net effect was it seemed unrealistically _fast_, notably enough that they had some optional rules in one of the GURPS Compendiums to fix it.

[RosenMcStern]

Two attacks per second with your greatsword - and there are still people that call it realistic. Now it is clear that the actual time expended by two kendo combatants actually exchanging blows is possibly one second, but in GURPS the entire combat lasts a handful of seconds, which does not happen so often in the real world.

For automatic weapons, I think that a character should be able to empty his ammo load in one round or so. There are rules for automatic weapons in CoC that can be adapted. Or you may have Volley fire work every DEX rank instead of every five with some weapons.

[Shiba Homer]

Let me take an informal poll within this thread: Does any GM here stick to the rulebook definition of a round or do they play it with a little rubber band and duct tape like the rest of us?

What do you mean, do you mean timewise? Your question seems very vague.

Yes I stick to having a melee round if thats what you mean, which containts everybody having actions or lack of them, within it.

[Shiba Homer]

Yeah, that's pretty much the poster incident for how easy it is to miss with firearms in real combat; its not just an aberration either (though it is extreme); an awful lot of fire is sort of vaguely flung at targets to try and get them to keep their heads down more than actually expecting to hit. This is even more true in military situations.

Isn't this very much to do with the idea that most people are very loathe to kill each other (stats about soldiers firing above the enemies heads spring to mind)?

[rust]

Isn't this very much to do with the idea that most people are very loathe to kill each other (stats about soldiers firing above the enemies heads spring to mind)?

I do no think so. In my experience it has more to do with the fact that most

people try to fire at the enemy and to avoid the enemy's fire at the same ti-

me - and to try to keep one's head down (or to keep moving) in order to be

harder to hit while aiming is somewhat difficult.

The unwillingness to kill is usually overcome by the fact that one has to hit

and wound or kill "the other guy" in order to ensure one's own survival.

And for combat rounds: I tend to use 6 second rounds, give or take a little.

My combat rounds tend to be longer during a close combat with melee wea-

pons and perhaps a bit shorter during firefights, and also shorter when only

two characters are fighting and longer when more characters are involved.

[sdavies2720]

...but in GURPS the entire combat lasts a handful of seconds, which does not happen so often in the real world.

That was always my problem with short rounds: The combat occupied the players for a long time, but only a short time in-game went by. So it was, for instance, hard to set up a dramatic situation where something non-combat needed to happen while the other players held off the bad guys. Generally with really short rounds, the right strategy was always to have everyone fight, cause there was never enough time to do finish the non-combat activity in time.

It was that, and movement rates, that were the two disbelief killers.

Steve

[mrk]

6 seconds might be a better length (actually I think it's better), but as allready been said, would not include time for circling, waiting for opening that you would find in f.ex. a knifefight, where attacking presents a very big risk of opening yourself to attack.

SGL.

I have no problem with the "one strike" per six second rule. Infact, the main reason why I don't mind not using hit locations as a sucessfull hit gives the " impression" of damage being done in one or more locations. As for major wounds/ fumble table, I'm going to use the old Steve Perrin criticle hit and fumble charts as their much more lethal and fun to use:)

Two attacks per second with your greatsword - and there are still people that call it realistic. Now it is clear that the actual time expended by two kendo combatants actually exchanging blows is possibly one second, but in GURPS the entire combat lasts a handful of seconds, which does not happen so often in the real world.

Actually most fights don't last longer then one punch and if they do end up on the ground. You have to be really tough and highly conditioned to not only go the distance but to take the blows as well. Check out the old Hagler vs Hearns fight. It's only three rounds but it's the best three rounds ever! As every second those guys were going for the knockout and were exchanging full powerd hooks, crosses and other heavy artiliary punches that would of put the average guy into a hospital. An amazing fight!

Edited August 6, 2008 by mrk

[Nightshade]

For automatic weapons, I think that a character should be able to empty his ammo load in one round or so. There are rules for automatic weapons in CoC that can be adapted. Or you may have Volley fire work every DEX rank instead of every five with some weapons.

Unless they've changed over the years, for man-carried weapons, the autofire rules that have appeared in most versions of BRP are probably too kind; its pretty much established doctrine that full auto on assault rifles and SMGs is counterproductive; it wastes an enormous amount of ammo for very trivial gain at best. Last I knew, the doctrine was that bursts larger than about 3 rounds were usually contraindicated.

Of course this isn't simple; its not quite as tidy for mounted weapons for example, or weapons with ultralow recoil.