QuickStart/RQG - Strike Rank questions

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

@Jason Durall Can characters/NPC's delay an action in melee to occur on a later strike rank of their choosing?

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Can characters/NPC's delay an action in melee to occur on a later strike rank of their choosing?

Yes, you've always been able to do that in RQ.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, you've always been able to do that in RQ.

I don't think I've ever explicitly seen that written in past rules? Though I presumed it. 

I was wondering as balance of SR seems quite fine. Particularly when an aimed shot in the QS requires the attacker to wait until SR 12 to perform.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Wonder if @Jason Durall could confirm whether that is the design intent, to allow characters to delay their attack to occur on a later SR of their choosing in the melee round? Or does the abstract nature of SR's not allow for this? 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I don't think I've ever explicitly seen that written in past rules? Though I presumed it. 

RQ2 Appendix C, Optional Combat Rules (p.113 of the reprinted pdf):

AIMED BLOWS
A character can affect the hit location struck by delaying his attack and waiting for an opening. The following gives two different rules for doing so. Referees should experiment with each rule and decide which one they like best.
1. For each strike rank a player delays attacking after his normal strike rank, the player can adjust the die roll for hit location by one.
...
2. A character who wishes to hit a particular location must state where he desires to hit. He then waits until strike rank 12, when he attacks with ½ his normal effectiveness, if he is successful his blow hits where he wishes.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Yes, that covers delaying an attack to make an aimed blow.

The first example is closest to what I was thinking, it gives the idea that you could delay and choose which SR to attack on. Question is, is that applicable outside the context of a aimed shot? 

[styopa]

33 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Yes, that covers delaying an attack to make an aimed blow.

The first example is closest to what I was thinking, it gives the idea that you could delay and choose which SR to attack on. Question is, is that applicable outside the context of a aimed shot? 

Not sure what you mean by 'outside the context of'....?  It's like a junior aimed shot, giving one a limited ability to redirect the blow, for less of a penalty.  I like the flexibility and tactical decisions that rule presents.  In some ways it's way better, as you have a limited ability to redirect BUT suffer no penalty to hit.

One of the things I dislike about the latter version (wait until 12 and strike at half) is that it disproportionally penalizes people with really good strike ranks...which seems counterintuitive.  People who were going to swing at SR5 are really penalized (waiting 7 SR), while someone at SR12 anyway really only has the to-hit penalty.

[Psullie]

For me I see SR as the earliest that you can act. If you declare during your statement of intent that you wish delay an  attack to SR 7, 9 or whatever then fine. However when players wish to hold off an attack pending another SR based action, like if waiting for a spell to trigger then this is applied to their DEX & SIZ SR. They must add their Weapon SR to the triggered event. So if my fighter with a base SR of 5 with +2 for the weapon could declare an attack anywhere from 7 - 12. If he says after X happens and X happens on 7 then the soonest he can act is 9

but this is just my interpretation 

[jajagappa]

On 6/28/2017 at 7:18 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Question is, is that applicable outside the context of a aimed shot?

Consider SR's representing the minimum time by which an action can be performed.  If you want to delay (whether for an aimed blow, or just because), you do so.  As there is no other text saying 'yes' or 'no', you go with the MGF rule.

The danger in delay in RQ, however, may strongly discourage you from delay without a specific advantage (e.g. you delay 3 SR's, but in the interim your leg is lopped off - "what are you going to do, bleed on me?")

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

On 29 June 2017 at 0:54 AM, styopa said:

Not sure what you mean by 'outside the context of'....?

I meant that other than the example of the "aimed shot", which specifically mentions delaying an attacks SR, there are no other examples in the rules (i have come across) that demonstrate the flexibility to be able to precisely control the timing of a delayed attack.  

For example - Working on the assumption that a single weapon user can't both parry and attack on the same SR - if my character wishes to tactically delay his/her attack to occur later in the melee round, so that it occurs on the exact same SR as his/her opponent is to attack, with the intention of forcing the opponent to either loose their parry, or loose the attack. 

On 29 June 2017 at 11:50 AM, Psullie said:

For me I see SR as the earliest that you can act. If you declare during your statement of intent that you wish delay an  attack to SR 7, 9 or whatever then fine. However when players wish to hold off an attack pending another SR based action, like if waiting for a spell to trigger then this is applied to their DEX & SIZ SR. They must add their Weapon SR to the triggered event. So if my fighter with a base SR of 5 with +2 for the weapon could declare an attack anywhere from 7 - 12. If he says after X happens and X happens on 7 then the soonest he can act is 9

but this is just my interpretation 

So in this example we have have an ability to delay an attack but importantly with restriction. The resurrection being adding the weapons SR to occur after a verbalised trigger. Which does makes sense. 

So going back to my example, in the new RQG, could a character delay an attack to occur simultaneously on the same SR as his/her opponents attack, or is that outside the scope of the strike rank rules? Is that considered too specific with consideration to the idea of the abstract nature of strike ranks being:

"Strike ranks determine which attacks are resolved first in the melee round, and do not represent each second of that melee round" From RQ Quick-Start rules.

 

So @Jason Durall to clarify my original question, In RQG If a character can delay an attack:

1. Can it occur simultaneously (allowing for the fact the player knows what SR the opponent is attacking on), or must it occur after a trigger?

2. Can he/she choose which specfic SR to delay the attack to, or is there some kind of SR penalty for delaying an attack?

3.If a combatant looses their attack through using parry on the same SR that their attack was due, can he/she still perform the attack at a later SR, or is the attack lost for that melee round?

Edited June 30, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp
Added the last question number 3

[styopa]

45 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

For example - Working on the assumption that a single weapon user can't both parry and attack on the same SR - if my character wishes to tactically delay his/her attack to occur later in the melee round, so that it occurs on the exact same SR as his/her opponent is to attack, with the intention of forcing the opponent to either loose their parry, or loose the attack. 

Aha, now I understand.  Thanks for explaining.

While I love offering players meaningful tactical choices, I find that particular one seems to hit my gut as manipulating mechanics a little too much?   Then again, I guess IRL you could be declaring your intention to counterattack at the moment they attack (it's a very fencing thing) but then you a) ALSO sacrifice your ability to parry in that SR, and b.) may be forgoing your attack entirely if they choose to do the same thing...this is would end up that staple of the cinematic mano-a-mano duel, circling each other waiting for that attack to counter.

Is this getting too far down in the simulationist weeds for even RQ combat?  Or are such things as feints and counters already 'wrapped into' the melee attack?  I kind of think they are?

IF NOT, I could then also see that someone could even declare a feint attack on their normal SR, with an actual attack at least DEX SR later, the feint being resolved as a full usual combat roll (with the chance of fumble, and chances of getting your own weapon damaged, etc) but NO damage (to target or parrying item) is done on the attack, WHILE allowing the feint-er to still parry in that same SR.  (Thus drawing the feintee's ACTUAL real counterattack for the round, leaving the feint-er the ability to actually attack later without the risk of a simultaneous counter.  Of course the later attack coming on a different SR would still allow the feintee to parry since it's a different SR than they (the feintee) had actually attacked.)  I guess the net result would be to turn two attacks with no parries into two attacks WITH parries.  Is that worth it, gamewise?

As a GM, while that might seem interesting and clever, it also seems fiendishly complicated to manage.  IMO.

54 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

So in this example we have have an ability to delay an attack but importantly with restriction. The resurrection being adding the weapons SR to occur after a verbalised trigger. Which does makes sense. 

IMO I'd only penalize the player their DEX SR as a 'reaction' delay instead of their full melee attack SR.  IMO after you've passed the melee SR you're basically 'ready' in my view.

 

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

20 minutes ago, styopa said:

I find that particular one seems to hit my gut as manipulating mechanics a little too much

Yes you may be right there, its very specific and calculated, and thats why i was wondering whether its outside the scope of the SR interpretation, particularly as combat (in RQ2) is thought to include the feints and sides steps within the attack action. Perhaps a more reasonable rule would be to allow delayed attacks to occur after a trigger, not simultaneously (unless by accident)? 

27 minutes ago, styopa said:

IMO I'd only penalize the player their DEX SR as a 'reaction' delay instead of their full melee attack SR.  IMO after you've passed the melee SR you're basically 'ready' in my view.

That seems like a fair ruling for a delayed attack, I'm starting to get the feeling that having the complete freedom to choose the exact SR for a delayed attack, without any SR penalty is going a bit too far, adding the DEX SR to the triggers SR is very reasonable.

Be interesting to hear the designers thoughts on this?

[Psullie]

1 hour ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

For example - Working on the assumption that a single weapon user can't both parry and attack on the same SR - if my character wishes to tactically delay his/her attack to occur later in the melee round, so that it occurs on the exact same SR as his/her opponent is to attack, with the intention of forcing the opponent to either loose their parry, or loose the attack. 

You could declare holding off an attack to coincide with another's. RQ2 has that higher DEX goes first, if equal then both attack are rolled. Risky gambit

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

17 minutes ago, Psullie said:

You could declare holding off an attack to coincide with another's. RQ2 has that higher DEX goes first, if equal then both attack are rolled. Risky gambit

This would work if there is no SR penalty for delaying an attack. Be great to get some insight from the designers @Jason Durall?

[theotherrhialto]

It might work when keeping it simple. If you plan to counterattack that might mean you could attack first but you don't, and make a combat action accordingly. So if the 12 sec round with its SR is an abstract of all combat actions, it still means, when you attack first, that you might have let the slower opponent do his flourish and then strike back and hit him even though he didn't roll an attack, because you positioned yourself in such a way that his attack would be irrelevant.  You could assume there are feints, flourishes and tricks on both sides, but the one who gets to hit first is the one with the best SR.

As for change of intent, use the old rule: you can cancel an intention (not strike at a target that isn't there anymore) but not change it (change target).

The problem really comes when acting in the same SR. Do you strike or parry. But then it is settled by the dex difference. So it comes to the same, even on the same SR, if your dex is inferior, you are reacting.

I would make it simple again, that in that case you have to parry. And you can strike on the next SR. You just lose 1 SR because you had to parry. I think it is simple, you can get hit, killed, incapacitated, disarmed etc... but if not you can still attack, just a little bit later than you hoped for.

It does become more complicated when equal SR and equal Dex. That means everything happens at the same time. So does it mean two attacks without parries, or two attacks and parries played before the resolution of the outcome? Two attacks without parries would really be dangerous, and considering there are only 12 SR and odds will be many attacks will occur on the same SR it would be deadly without giving a chance for one of the opponents to parry instead of strike and stab each other at the same time. It might be realistic and deadly though, you just launch at each other hit at the same time and kill each other without a chance to block or dodge.  I'd take the two attacks and parries, roll the dice and see who comes out on top. But in this case, like what I mention above, it uses SR as an abstract notion of speed and not as a 1sec segment in a 12 sec round.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

 

13 hours ago, theotherrhialto said:

It does become more complicated when equal SR and equal Dex. That means everything happens at the same time. So does it mean two attacks without parries, or two attacks and parries played before the resolution of the outcome?

I would go with simultaneous attacks in this case. Unless an intent to parry had been declared at the start of the round. I wouldn't allow parries and attacks on the same SR, same as the new RGQ rules in this respect. Potential for dramatic double fatalities. 

 

13 hours ago, theotherrhialto said:

As for change of intent, use the old rule: you can cancel an intention (not strike at a target that isn't there anymore) but not change it (change target).

Altering/change Intent - Thats interesting and perhaps gives an insight how to model a character loosing their attack due to making a parry on the same SR. RQ3 has change of intent as adding a flat 3 SR's plus the DEx SR. Although would the character be considered to be making a "change of intent" by using their attack on a later SR because of a parry? 

Its quite an omission not to mention the possibility of delaying an action in either RQ2 or 3. Makes me wonder whether this was ever in the designers intent? Certainly going through the old RQ2 classic there is no mention of a mechanism to deliberately delay an attack, other then the aimed shot example in the appendix.

Thinking logically, delaying an attack/action to occur an an abstract SR number is probably not RuneQuest cricket so to speak, as I think styopa mentioned. Its messing with the abstract mechanics deliberately - a bit godlearnery  . Where as delaying an action/attack to occur after a particular trigger is perhaps acceptable in game. For example waiting for an attack to occur before taking an action. Still, whether that delay could be considered to coincide simultaneously/and/or directly after is still in question.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, & the speed of which things occur in a melee round simply can't accomodate these deliberate delays to attacks we're discussing, hence no mention in either RQ2 or RQ3 rules books?

So the questions still remain:

On 30 June 2017 at 3:29 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

So @Jason Durall to clarify my original question, In RQG If a character can delay an attack:

1. Can it occur simultaneously (allowing for the fact the player knows what SR the opponent is attacking on), or must it occur after a trigger?

2. Can he/she choose which specfic SR to delay the attack to, or is there some kind of SR penalty for delaying an attack?

3.If a combatant looses their attack through using parry on the same SR that their attack was due, can he/she still perform the attack at a later SR, or is the attack lost for that melee round?

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Ok - far too much time waisting here, but I've found specific mention in the RQ3 rule book of delaying an attack. Its mentioned under "Limit to Strike Ranks":

"...(though he may consciously delay an action until later in the same melee round)"

That's literally the only mention I've found in RQ2 and RQ3 about delaying an attack/action. Theres no mention of how specific a delay can be - For instance:  

• Are you free to choose any SR after your normal attack SR, or is there an SR penalty involved in delaying an action?
• Can you call out the SR number you wish to delay to, or do you call out a trigger for that delay and react after?
• Or can you consciously attack simultaneously to a given trigger, for example an attack against you? 

Also regarding being forced to parry on your attack SR:

• Are you considered to have just delayed your attack, and therefore able to attack on following SR or later?
• Or are you considered to have made a "change of intent", thereby incurring a fixed SR penalty to your attack in that melee round(5 SR in RQ2, and 3 in RQ3)?
• Or Do you loose your attack for that melee round?

Edited July 5, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp
added questions i still feel are relevant to the subject as a whole.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

@Jason Durall It would be super appreciated if you could just clarify where RQG stands on these two strike rank related areas ( pretty please) ? 

 

RQG - Strike Ranks. Can you delay an attack/action to occur later in the melee round?

Looking through bothe RQ2 & RQ3, I've only found one specific mention in the RQ3 rule book of delaying an attack. Its mentioned under "Limit to Strike Ranks":

"...(though he may consciously delay an action until later in the same melee round)"

That's literally the only mention I've found in RQ2 and RQ3 about delaying an attack/action. Theres no further details specified on the subject, which leads me to these questions:  

• Are you free to choose any SR after your normal attack SR, or is there an SR penalty involved in delaying an action?
• If allowed to delay an attack/action presumably, its a matter of stating a trigger that will cause you to attack, rather then saying I'm attacking on a specific abstract SR?
• Can you consciously attack simultaneously to a given trigger, for example an attack against you, or are you restricted to attacking after the "trigger"? 

RQG - Strike ranks. What happens if you are forced to parry/dodge on your attack SR, can you still perform an attack in the melee round? 

• Are you considered to have just delayed your attack, and therefore able to attack on following SR?
• Or are you considered to have made a "change of intent", thereby incurring a fixed SR penalty to your attack in that melee round (5 SR in RQ2, and 3 in RQ3)?
• Or do you loose your attack for that melee round?

Edited July 5, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[styopa]

I know you're not looking for my answers, but I'll volunteer my reflex views on your questions:

Are you free to choose any SR after your normal attack SR, or is there an SR penalty involved in delaying an action?

- I'd say you can delay to a specific sr if you declare it in statement of intent, otherwise it's a reaction which would (for me) be a dex sr penalty (5 sr is too punitive for me)

If allowed to delay an attack/action presumably, its a matter of stating a trigger that will cause you to attack, rather then saying I'm attacking on a specific abstract SR?

- either, as above

Can you consciously attack simultaneously to a given trigger, for example an attack against you, or are you restricted to attacking after the "trigger"? 

- I'd say you always would go dex sr after the trigger, or at the end of the round if that pushes you past sr 12.

RQG - Strike ranks. What happens if you are forced to parry/dodge on your attack SR, can you still perform an attack in the melee round? 

- Dex sr later

Are you considered to have just delayed your attack, and therefore able to attack on following SR?

- as above

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

 

I know you're not looking for my answers, but I'll volunteer my reflex views on your questions:

 

Thanks Styopa, thats food for thought. The suggestion of a reaction delay of Dex SR is a possible way forward. Its surprising how little has been written about delaying actions in past editions. Hopefully they will clarify these kind of rulings in the new edition.

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Thanks Styopa, thats food for thought. The suggestion of a reaction delay of Dex SR is a possible way forward. Its surprising how little has been written about delaying actions in past editions. Hopefully they will clarify these kind of rulings in the new edition.

I'm also surprised how little you found in previous versions...particularly with the round-structure of a statement of intent otherwise constraining players' actions.

I'd always assumed it was 3 SR (we play a variant of RQ3 mostly).  Just shows how ingrained houserules become over time in the mind.

Then again, we'd junked significant parts of the RAW SR system, so what we used only vaguely resembled RAW anyway.  (As I've mentioned elsewhere in these boards, because of the odd 'capping' of DEX and SIZ SR mods at 0 resulting from the 'counting up' method, we reversed it and counted DOWN from the start of the round, and reversed the mods so more intuitively high DEX/SIZ = high mod = good.) (Also, because none of us liked the mechanical predictability of the fixed SR system, we also added a die rolled initiative in there.  So it was initiative+DEX SR, highest total started the round.  Weapon+SIZ SR only determined who struck first *when closing*.)

[Jason D]

On 6/27/2017 at 0:46 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

@Jason Durall Can characters/NPC's delay an action in melee to occur on a later strike rank of their choosing?

Yes. 

[Jason D]

On 6/28/2017 at 11:25 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Wonder if @Jason Durall could confirm whether that is the design intent, to allow characters to delay their attack to occur on a later SR of their choosing in the melee round? Or does the abstract nature of SR's not allow for this? 

It is the design intent, and you can. Just not so long that you go past the end of the round. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, Jason Durall said:

It is the design intent, and you can. Just not so long that you go past the end of the round. 

Thanks Jason. What happens if a character is forced to chose parry on their attack SR, do they still have an opportunity to attack on the following strike rank? 

[Atgxtg]

On 6/28/2017 at 7:54 PM, styopa said:

  It's like a junior aimed shot, giving one a limited ability to redirect the blow, for less of a penalty.  I like the flexibility and tactical decisions that rule presents.  In some ways it's way better, as you have a limited ability to redirect BUT suffer no penalty to hit.

Yeah, but the drawback is that it is all about SR, and not about skill. So a big character, with a long weapon, and a good DEX is able to really shift his location around, while a master who doesn't have a good SR is limited.

On 6/28/2017 at 7:54 PM, styopa said:

One of the things I dislike about the latter version (wait until 12 and strike at half) is that it disproportionally penalizes people with really good strike ranks...which seems counterintuitive.  People who were going to swing at SR5 are really penalized (waiting 7 SR), while someone at SR12 anyway really only has the to-hit penalty.

Yup.

 

Personally, I think neither version is all that great. It would be nice to see a method that factors in for skill and SR. Maybe something like 1 hit location per SR, or 2 per SR if you take a penalty.