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Quickstart/RQG: Movement


AlbertG

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Hm, none of the playtest PCs have SIZE or INT < 10, and in fact one has INT 20 and another INT 19 which seems odd (and the lowest INT is 15), as INT used to be a thing you couldn't train - maybe you can now?

So I would guess SIZE and INT will be 2d6+6 (or more)

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On 7/8/2017 at 2:24 PM, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

Sure, some other interesting ones I've found in RQ2:

- It's unclear whether HP are actually subtracted from location HP, or location HP are just a threshold for damage (Everyone plays that they are subtracted, but it's not explicit. I quite like the idea of location HP being merely a threshold to see how serious the wound is).

- Are weapon skills Attack & Parry, or just one rating for both (it's kind of implied both)

- Criticals and Specials are introduced wrt combat but are never mentioned in the Skills chapter (everyone uses them that way but it's not explicit)

- Does a negative Defence apply? I always thought it did, but there are no monsters (e.g. Giants or other high SIZ creatures) with a negative defence. It's much easier if min Defence = 0, TBH especially if you have players that forget that sort of thing all the time. 

In RQ2, you have BOTH your total HP's (losing all of which can kill you, as cumulative trauma), and your per-location HP's, where a given location can be disabled (or destroyed).  Adding up per-location HP's give you MORE than your "total" HP's, because it doesn't actually take very many "destroyed" hit-locations to be realistically fatal, even if the other hit-locations are un-injured and have their "full HPs"...

In RQ2, Attack (for a given weapon) and Parry (for that same weapon) are separate skills.  In the new RQG, they are planned to be a single Weapon skill, covering both attack and parry ...

I agree that a fuller discussion of Critical/Special/Fumble results for non-combat skills would be a Good Thing.  I hope to see such in RQG!

Noting that "Defense" is gone from RQG, I believe "defense" in RQ2 to be a positive skill, and "negative" defense to not make much sense.  Sure, some opponents are easier to hit than others, but I'd do that with other mechanics than "Defense" I think...

 

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Sure, but mysteriously RQ2 does not actually say that HP are subtracted from location HP. That's the way everyone has played it, and presumably the intention because that's how RQG does it, but I thought it would be interesting if it was a threshold to see if locations are disabled/severed/maimed or not. You would still reduce general HP per wound of course.

 

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48 minutes ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

Sure, but mysteriously RQ2 does not actually say that HP are subtracted from location HP. That's the way everyone has played it, and presumably the intention because that's how RQG does it, but I thought it would be interesting if it was a threshold to see if locations are disabled/severed/maimed or not. You would still reduce general HP per wound of course.

 

It's astonishing, but you're correct.  In fact, reading it with that interpretation in mind, RQ2 Hit Locations and Wounds actually reads a fair amount clearer.  Even the bit about healing reads better.

*mind blown*

I even looked through the examples, to see if in any of them there was a 'deduction' of hp from a limb as a result of damage.  As far as I could tell, no.

The only refuge I could take on this would be circumstantial: by that measure (assuming the hp value of limbs is only a benchmark, and not a pool from which points are deducted) essentially trivial wounds could eventually kill.  Someone with 19 hp and thus 6 hp arms, could be killed by four 5-point hits to the same arm.  That seems...odd.

 

Steve Perrin is frequently here.  Someone get him in here STAT!

 

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8 hours ago, styopa said:

It's astonishing, but you're correct.  In fact, reading it with that interpretation in mind, RQ2 Hit Locations and Wounds actually reads a fair amount clearer.  Even the bit about healing reads better.

*mind blown*

I even looked through the examples, to see if in any of them there was a 'deduction' of hp from a limb as a result of damage.  As far as I could tell, no.

The only refuge I could take on this would be circumstantial: by that measure (assuming the hp value of limbs is only a benchmark, and not a pool from which points are deducted) essentially trivial wounds could eventually kill.  Someone with 19 hp and thus 6 hp arms, could be killed by four 5-point hits to the same arm.  That seems...odd.

 

Steve Perrin is frequently here.  Someone get him in here STAT!

 

I think the Notes on Damage Results on page 17 (original RQ2) strongly suggest that Locations take damage. While notes 2 & 3 refer to damage from a single blow, note 1 does not.  Also the fact that Healing works by location reinforces this.

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9 hours ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

Sure, but mysteriously RQ2 does not actually say that HP are subtracted from location HP. That's the way everyone has played it, and presumably the intention because that's how RQG does it, but I thought it would be interesting if it was a threshold to see if locations are disabled/severed/maimed or not. You would still reduce general HP per wound of course.

 

I always played it this way since RQ2, as it was also how I originally interpreted it. Later editions of RQ and the BGB played it how others have presumed, but I could never dig it as it just seemed too fiddily. I have always counted positive limb HP as thresholds, but recorded negative limb HP. It works pretty well, as the PCs are slightly more resilient and its less book keeping

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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8 hours ago, Psullie said:

I think the Notes on Damage Results on page 17 (original RQ2) strongly suggest that Locations take damage. While notes 2 & 3 refer to damage from a single blow, note 1 does not.  Also the fact that Healing works by location reinforces this.

 

Well all they say is do the damage points exceed the location HP, or more than twice, or 6 more than available. The fact that Healing works by location I think doesn't really apply, for example I would just record wounds as "Left Arm 3, Abdomen 4, Right Leg 3" etc and then apply Healing to them when necessary.

 

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16 hours ago, styopa said:

It's astonishing, but you're correct.  In fact, reading it with that interpretation in mind, RQ2 Hit Locations and Wounds actually reads a fair amount clearer.  Even the bit about healing reads better.

*mind blown*

I even looked through the examples, to see if in any of them there was a 'deduction' of hp from a limb as a result of damage.  As far as I could tell, no.

The only refuge I could take on this would be circumstantial: by that measure (assuming the hp value of limbs is only a benchmark, and not a pool from which points are deducted) essentially trivial wounds could eventually kill.  Someone with 19 hp and thus 6 hp arms, could be killed by four 5-point hits to the same arm.  That seems...odd.

 

Steve Perrin is frequently here.  Someone get him in here STAT!

 

 

I was quite surprised too a few years ago when I reread RQ2, especially as the examples don't make it clear either.

Of course it could easily be that the intention was that HP are subtracted, but I thought it was interesting to consider it as thresholds.

Dunno, four 5 point hits to an arm sounds pretty nasty to me. Besides I can imagine being killed by 19 wounds of 1 point each...

I also think it reduces the large effect of +1d4 or +1d6 damage bonus.

Edited by d(sqrt(-1))

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7 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I always played it this way since RQ2, as it was also how I originally interpreted it. Later editions of RQ and the BGB played it how others have presumed, but I could never dig it as it just seemed too fiddily. I have always counted positive limb HP as thresholds, but recorded negative limb HP. It works pretty well, as the PCs are slightly more resilient and its less book keeping

 

Interesting that you say it makes PCs a bit more resilient. I was assuming that would be the case. As you say, also less bookkeeping.

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1 hour ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

 Besides I can imagine being killed by 19 wounds of 1 point each...

 

I can too, but not to the same location?

That's really the result of per-location deductions, is that the accumulation of harm to that location stops at a point.

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If a troll with a maul has just 4d6+6'ed your arm, and it's now broken in many places & most major muscles torn, with both bleeding wounds on the skin and internal bleeding from shattered bones' cutting veins, &c...   The arm is functionally "destroyed."   Healing-magic can save it, but otherwise... even a modern state-of-the-art surgery probably couldn't.  However:  PRESUMING you haven't passed-out from pain/shock/etc...  Let's say you're really tough, you stay awake, you even stay upright, and some version of functional.  Of course, moving will be an agony until you can immobilize the limb and keep the broken bones from grinding into the torn muscles... but SOME version of functional.

Let's talk about continuing combat, and further hits to that hit-location.

To begin with, the limb cannot become any "less" functional than completely non-functional and (barring healing magic, or a tourniquet) is destined to make you to bleed out and die.  So more "hit points" of damage are... not to the point.

Except that HP's of damage kind of still are to the point:

  • Another hit onto those torn muscles and shattered bones will exponentially increase the pain; it will be another shock-inducing event (roll CON% maybe?)
  • Because it's not an active limb, with resilient muscles holding a tough shield/weapon to parry the blow... another hit there is liable to transmit much of the damage to whatever hit-location (likely torso) is behind it.
  • Cleaving off the limb, with MontyPythonBlackKnight-esque spurting arterial blood, will see the bleed-out happen almost instantly; macho "toughness" need not apply, blood-loss is the great leveller!
  • etc.

So I'm good with a "destroyed" hit-location continue to accumulate damage to the main (non-location) HP-pool; yes, there are circumstances where it won't.  I'm happy to HR those on a case-by-case basis.

 

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19 hours ago, styopa said:

It's astonishing, but you're correct.  In fact, reading it with that interpretation in mind, RQ2 Hit Locations and Wounds actually reads a fair amount clearer.  Even the bit about healing reads better.

*mind blown*

I even looked through the examples, to see if in any of them there was a 'deduction' of hp from a limb as a result of damage.  As far as I could tell, no.

The only refuge I could take on this would be circumstantial: by that measure (assuming the hp value of limbs is only a benchmark, and not a pool from which points are deducted) essentially trivial wounds could eventually kill.  Someone with 19 hp and thus 6 hp arms, could be killed by four 5-point hits to the same arm.  That seems...odd.

 

Steve Perrin is frequently here.  Someone get him in here STAT!

 

This is a fascinating notion.

I think it bears some further thought, and even research...

I know that the original RQ combat had substantive input from SCA / medieval-combat-reenactment folk...

Is it possible that this can be run by... say... gamers who RL have combat/trauma experience, such as ER physicians/nurses/etc?

 

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In the section RESOLUTION OF MELEE (pages 13-14 old bood, page 19 Classic Edition PDF) it states :

1. If the attacker succeeds and the defender does not, the
defender takes damage in the hit location rolled on D20 as
above.
 

Plus the tick off hip points on most of the RQ2 Character, Animal, NPC, Sqaud, etc. sheets wouldn't make any sense it you didn't tick off damage to a location. So I think you are supposed to tick off hit points )down or up_ to keep track of damage to specfic locations so they can be disabled, maimed, etc. 

For example, if someone with 3 hit points in his arm, keeps taking 1 point hits (past armor) he will lose the use of that arm after taking three hits there, but he can't take more than 6HP of damage to that arm. 

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As someone who was playing RQ2 first time around, there was never any question that HPs were deducted. I don't even remember seeing any house rules treating location HPs as thresholds. There have been various attempts at using locational hit points as thresholds since then.

I suppose, technically there are now three variations:

  • RQ - total Hit Points and Locational Hit Points
  • BRP - Total Hit Points (and major wounds) only
  • The "M" fork - Locational Hit Points only

These days I tend to think that classic RQ with Locational hit points and total hit points is overkill. I prefer just one or the other. 

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12 minutes ago, deleriad said:

As someone who was playing RQ2 first time around, there was never any question that HPs were deducted. I don't even remember seeing any house rules treating location HPs as thresholds.

No there wasn't, but the way the RQ2 rules are worded in both the rules and the examples, it doesn't actually state that you do. Which is kinda interesting.

Now, here's the thing- if you ticked off hit points per location, or tracked thresholds, the results appear to be exactly the same

 

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56 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

No there wasn't, but the way the RQ2 rules are worded in both the rules and the examples, it doesn't actually state that you do.

There are quite a few things like that in the rulebook due to it being written back before the dawn of time. E.g. I'm pretty sure it never actually mentions how many times you can parry in a melee round. 

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2 hours ago, deleriad said:

There are quite a few things like that in the rulebook due to it being written back before the dawn of time. E.g. I'm pretty sure it never actually mentions how many times you can parry in a melee round. 

 

It sort of does under "Two Weapon Use" p 26 where is says two weapons can be used for 2 attacks, 2 parries or 1 attack and one parry. But I agree it's not explicit. Plus the section on Splitting Attacks on p 23 does say that you can't parry a foe more than once in a round even with 100%+ skill.

The location HP thing I think is an interesting interpretation, doesn't break the rules, makes PCs a bit tougher and is easy to implement. It also makes it a hell of a lot easier for the GM. I'm not saying that's what was intended (everyone me included) played with ablative location HP. It's just that it still works and is straightforward to implement.

Realistically, although you could take 19 1 point hits to the left arm, it's unlikely enough to not be a worry. Even if you did, it's unusual enough to be an interesting story...

 

Edited by d(sqrt(-1))

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2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

No there wasn't, but the way the RQ2 rules are worded in both the rules and the examples, it doesn't actually state that you do. Which is kinda interesting.

Now, here's the thing- if you ticked off hit points per location, or tracked thresholds, the results appear to be exactly the same

 

 

Yes, exactly - interesting, and achieves similar results without a lot of bookkeeping for the GM.

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22 minutes ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

 

Yes, exactly - interesting, and achieves similar results without a lot of bookkeeping for the GM.

No even the bookkeeping is the same, because you do need to know the total damage that a given location has taken. The "NOTES ON DAMAGE RESULTS" actually distinguishes between locations that a character is functionally incapacitated if a limb takes 2x it hit points in damage from a single blow, but not if it is accumulated over multiple blows. So you would still have to track those pesky 1 point hits.

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More than 2 x HP from a single blow, so I only need to know if it is incapacitated or not, and track the wound. Location HP + 6 = maimed/severed.

Sec 2 (p18) says "Further blows to that Arm will affect the Hit Points of the character"

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Here’s my take on all this, pages refer to RQ2 original print edition

P10: ‘Hit Points are a measure of how much damage one can take before dying.’  - this sets up the concept that Hit Points are a finite resource reduced by damage.

P17: ‘Each of the above areas has a certain amount of hit points’  - this is a clear statement that locations also have hit points

‘when a character has taken sufficient damage to surpass his Hit Points […] he is dead. ’ - the ‘death by many cuts’ rule, multiple small injures can lead to death.

The Notes on Damage Results points (P17 - 18) clearly sates that locations take damage and that this damage is also deducted from total HP - ‘Thus a 2 points arm hit for 5 points will only take 4 points of damage off the total Hit Points, the remaining having no effect. Further blows to that arm will effect the Hit Points.’ It also stats that if the damage to a location 'equaled or exceeded' suggesting damage from either cumulative minor wounds or major wounds. Point 3 goes on to say that ‘a 2 point arm struck for 8 points […] only takes four points of damage against his Hit Points.’ this implies locations can have a negative HP, subsequent hits pass directly to main HP but no more than Location HPx2

In Fight In Gimpy’s Tavern Rurik takes a 2 point wound to the abdomen, and a 3 point wound to the leg. Neither of these impair him, and combined the 5 points of damage are well below 16. Poor Herkan is killed by massive damage to one location. Herkan has only 4 HP in the abdomen, the damage rolled is 10 which is 6 more than he has, even though his total can only be reduced by 4x2=8, the shock of the blow killed him even though he has 3 HP remaining, 

Note that this ‘shock’ only applies to Head, Chest and Abdomen. An arm taking 25 points of damage can only effect total HP by the Arm HPx2, even on subsequent hits 

In the Rumble in the Rubble example Horus take a 6 point wound to his 3 point arm (reducing is total by 6 to 5) taking his arm down to -3. This is important because later when he cast Heal 2 it states that he’ll need to wait 5 rounds to cast it again to ‘get back in the fight’ meaning that his arm went from -3 to -1, needing a second Heal 2 spell to get use of his arm.

While I agree it’s not the clearest, I feel that the when taken in their entirety the rules suggest that locations take damage up to twice their HP.  And that if the total damage ever exceeds total HP then your character is dead. Also that twice location HP is the most damage you can ever take, but if this is greater than 6 in key locations, shock will kill the PC.

As for bookkeeping, you need to record HP loss by location and total HP. The example above Horus ‘ left arm dropped to -3, his total Hit Points down to 5. After the Heal, they would be -1 & 7

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The Gimpy's tavern example, sure Rurik takes 2 points to the abdomen. That reduces his General HP by 2 and we note a wound of  "Abdomen: 2".

Notes on Damage results (p17) : Sure, a 2 point arm can only take 4 HP max from the General HP. "If damage equals or exceeds the location HP" can just mean the rolled damage exceeds the threshold. A 2 point arm struck for 8 points only takes 4  damage against General HP. None of these necessarily mean reduction of location HP.

Herkan dies because he took Abdomen threshold + 6 damage in one blow, as per p18 Sect 3.

An arm taking 25 damage in one blow can only affect total HP by Arm HP x 2, certainly (it would be maimed though). Sect 2 does say "Further blows to that arm will affect the HP of the character", which implies that limbs don't have a max limit of x2 in total, only per hit.

Rumble in the Rubble, Horus takes 6 points to his arm, enough to incapacitate him. We note "Left Arm: 6" When he casts Heal 2 it changes to "Left Arm: 4". that's still enough for his arm to not be working.

If total damage exceeds total HP dead, agreed. Again, when you take a hit to a location, note the wound and reduce General HP by the same amount.

Look, I'm not saying everyone who has ever played has misinterpreted the rules, I'm saying it is a valid different way of looking at it that isn't contradicted by the rules, and it might be an interesting way to think about it.

 

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1 hour ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

Look, I'm not saying everyone who has ever played has misinterpreted the rules, I'm saying it is a valid different way of looking at it that isn't contradicted by the rules, and it might be an interesting way to think about it.

I don't believe it is really all that different. You still tracking the wounds but in a different way. much like how some AD&Ders used to add up damage taken rather than mark down hit points. 

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