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QuickStart/RQG - Characteristic Roll or Resistance table?


Paid a bod yn dwp

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On 28 June 2017 at 6:04 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

The arm wrestle example seems like the perfect example of an opposed roll to me ( two active opposing forces both rolling dice).

What say you @Jeff?

Reading through the quick-start again it does indicate that opposed rolls are used specifically for ability rolls. Flicking back to p2 titled "Ability Use", it describes abilities as either a Skill, Rune, or Passion roll. so that excludes characteristic rolls.

Further more under the Resistance Table title p6 it states that:

" Resistance rolls are not used for skill, Rune, or passion rolls. They are used when pitting one characteristic against another, such as STR against the size of an object to be lifted..."

After a reread it is more clearly laid out then i first thought. An arm wrestle contest would still use the Resistance table, as its one characteristic pitted against another. 

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15 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

After a reread it is more clearly laid out then i first thought. An arm wrestle contest would still use the Resistance table, as its one characteristic pitted against another. 

That would be my RAW take, but imo it's not MGF either.  

It's inherently more fun to roll dice, generally speaking.  

Having both contestants - or the GM - rolling against each other right there on the table is SO much more inherently engaging (as well as offering a broader array of possible results, whether that's specifically useful in this case or no) than just a "roll to succeed" for one of the opponents.  Not to mention, if it's two pc's armwrestling each other, which would you have roll on the resist table.  I know the result% are exactly the same, but one player would be doing something, the other just waiting for a result.

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9 minutes ago, styopa said:

That would be my RAW take, but imo it's not MGF either

Yes you have a good point. Although I now feel clearer on the RAW rules, I think your interpretation would be more fun, and fitting having both characters roll.

Would it be an over complication to use the the resistance table to gauge both attackers chance of winning an arm wrestle, and get them both to roll on that result as an opposed roll, or are we in danger of disappearing up our own RuneQuest behinds? :) 

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4 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Yes you have a good point. Although I now feel clearer on the RAW rules, I think your interpretation would be more fun, and fitting having both characters roll.

Would it be an over complication to use the the resistance table to gauge both attackers chance of winning an arm wrestle, and get them both to roll on that result as an opposed roll, or are we in danger of disappearing up our own RuneQuest behinds? :) 

200px-Chrysopoea_of_Cleopatra_1.png

I think you've gone full Ouruboros on that one. :)

If you're going to do opposed rolls, I think it's more intuitive to simply have them roll vs STR*5 (or *4, or *3 or lower, depending on how drunk they are) than to x-ref their stats on a table then roll against those stats. 

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22 minutes ago, styopa said:

200px-Chrysopoea_of_Cleopatra_1.png

I think you've gone full Ouruboros on that one. :)

If you're going to do opposed rolls, I think it's more intuitive to simply have them roll vs STR*5 (or *4, or *3 or lower, depending on how drunk they are) than to x-ref their stats on a table then roll against those stats. 

Heh heh - yes think i turned my RPG mind accidentally inside out...I'm going to need an alka seltzer & a lie-down

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Following the discomfort of my full Ouruboros and the subsequent lie-down, I returned to RQ3 book and found this regarding arm wrestling:

"...In RuneQuest this struggle involves pitting Cormac's Str characteristic against Burly Bob's using the Resistance Table. Each player rolls D100, trying to obtain a result equal to or less then the percentile indicated on the Resistance Table. The Round that only one player succeeds determines the winning character." 

So thats how it was done in RQ3.

 

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6 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Following the discomfort of my full Ouruboros and the subsequent lie-down, I returned to RQ3 book and found this regarding arm wrestling:

"...In RuneQuest this struggle involves pitting Cormac's Str characteristic against Burly Bob's using the Resistance Table. Each player rolls D100, trying to obtain a result equal to or less then the percentile indicated on the Resistance Table. The Round that only one player succeeds determines the winning character." 

So thats how it was done in RQ3.

Nice find, lol.  Not to throw gas on the fire, but it sounds a lot like a (clumsy) RQ3 version of an opposed roll to me. :)

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I believe that the through behind this is that with an opposed Resistance table roll, you chance of success is effected by the opponents. On a straight roll of STRx5 you have the same chance of success regardless of who you're up against. The resistance table highlights differences in characteristics to skew the odds rather than the core ability.

Consider an arm-wrestling tourney at Gimpy's. your adventurer has STR 16 (80%), you are up against 3 contestants, STR 12 (60%), 16 (80%) and 18 (90%).

On the straight roll you are relying the opponent loosing (admittedly with the higher roll winning rule you have an advantage over the 12)

However on the Resistance table, you have a  70/30 advantage over the 12, 50/50 on the 16, and a 40/60 challenge against the 18. 

I guess it all boils down to how you want to stack the odds.

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Just to further add fuel to the fire, in the original BRP booklet (which accompanied the larger RQ core book in my old RQ2 Box), there was an example of an arm wrestle which used STR vs STR on the Resistance Table...

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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3 hours ago, Psullie said:

I believe that the through behind this is that with an opposed Resistance table roll, you chance of success is effected by the opponents. On a straight roll of STRx5 you have the same chance of success regardless of who you're up against. The resistance table highlights differences in characteristics to skew the odds rather than the core ability.

Consider an arm-wrestling tourney at Gimpy's. your adventurer has STR 16 (80%), you are up against 3 contestants, STR 12 (60%), 16 (80%) and 18 (90%).

On the straight roll you are relying the opponent loosing (admittedly with the higher roll winning rule you have an advantage over the 12)

However on the Resistance table, you have a  70/30 advantage over the 12, 50/50 on the 16, and a 40/60 challenge against the 18. 

I guess it all boils down to how you want to stack the odds.

Afaik the debate isn't STR roll vs resistance table, we're struggling with the choice of OPPOSED rolls using STR x5 vs resistance table.  

Frankly, since Jeff's comment rightly mentioning the more bell-curvy results you get from more dice in play, I'm inclined to use opposed rolls far more often whenever there are active agents opposing each other.... I'd still use the resistance table math for simplicity/speeds sake in simple things involving passive resistance like breaking open a door or lifting something heavy.

So in the end, for me, arm wrestling would certainly be opposed rolls.

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On ‎27‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 10:49 PM, Jason Durall said:

Generally, I tend to view it as: 

1. If your characteristic is bring pitted against its own limits, like pulling yourself up by your hands, use a characteristic roll. This also applies to rolls where there's no clear skill or opposing force, like catching something thrown at you. 

2. If there's an easily-quantified opposing/passive force, use a resistance roll. 

The "carrying someone" used as a double example isn't in the rulebook. 

Why is forcing/bashing a door open a STR X 5 roll instead of a resistance roll.

A STR X 5 roll would imply all doors are equally difficult to bash or force open. 

Of course it could be played that some doors have modifiers (+20% or -20% etc) to make them easier or harder, but then they have just been given an easily quantified passive force and the resistance table would then be appropriate.

 

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55 minutes ago, styopa said:

Afaik the debate isn't STR roll vs resistance table, we're struggling with the choice of OPPOSED rolls using STR x5 vs resistance table.  

Frankly, since Jeff's comment rightly mentioning the more bell-curvy results you get from more dice in play, I'm inclined to use opposed rolls far more often whenever there are active agents opposing each other.... I'd still use the resistance table math for simplicity/speeds sake in simple things involving passive resistance like breaking open a door or lifting something heavy.

So in the end, for me, arm wrestling would certainly be opposed rolls.

the clack drops :D

My take was as follows:

Character rolls (POW, STR etc x5 or whatever) were only used if nothing else fit. The traditional example is the luck roll or POW x5. 

Tests of characteristics using the Resistance table is the preferred option where the the GM assigns a value for the test, POW v POW etc. Where the 'defender' is passive only the 'attacker' rolls, e.g.: bashing down a door, the GM assigns a STR for the door and the player rolls the dice. Note that using POW to resist magic is passive, the defender does not roll dice.

Active tests, where both parties are actively resisting each other, means that both roll on the Resistance table where the difference in abilities matter more than their base value

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1 hour ago, Psullie said:

Active tests, where both parties are actively resisting each other, means that both roll on the Resistance table where the difference in abilities matter more than their base value

Not sure what you mean here?  I don't believe there's a "both roll on the resistance table" option.  

clippy-microsofts-talking-paperclip-is-b

Did you mean opposed rolls?

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17 minutes ago, styopa said:

Not sure what you mean here?  I don't believe there's a "both roll on the resistance table" option.  

clippy-microsofts-talking-paperclip-is-b

Did you mean opposed rolls?

If two adventurers are arm wrestling each other BOTH get to roll based in the different of their characteristics. This is how I've always interpreted the ruling. If my character had STR 12 and yours had STR 16, I'd be rolling against 30% and you'd be rolling against 70% (rather than 60% & 80%) 

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1 hour ago, Psullie said:

If two adventurers are arm wrestling each other BOTH get to roll based in the different of their characteristics. This is how I've always interpreted the ruling. If my character had STR 12 and yours had STR 16, I'd be rolling against 30% and you'd be rolling against 70% (rather than 60% & 80%) 

NAFAIK.  Opposed rolls have nothing to do with the resistance table at all.  In such an opposed roll it would be the 60 & 80.

From the QS rules text:

Quote

OPPOSED RESOLUTION
Opposed rolls are made when one character’s ability is pitched against an opponent’s ability. A simple success may not be enough to overcome the opponent. Opposed rolls are not used to resolve melee combat. To make an opposed roll, both participants roll their respective abilities. If both participants succeed, the winner is whoever rolled higher. If one participant got a special success and the other a normal success, the special success is the winner. If one participant got a critical success and the other a normal or special success, the critical success is the winner

(emph mine)
 

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Call of Cthulhu 7: It says opposed skill rolls are only for Player versus Player and Melee Combat, not for regular skill rolls or contests versus a NPC. "Outside of combat, the Keeper should avoid using opposed rolls between non-player characters and investigators", unless, and only when, an opposed roll enhance the drama.

Skill rolls

On a regular basis, CoC 7 says only players should roll dice. Before the player rolls any dice, the Keeper must determine a difficulty level: Regular, Hard and Extreme

*Regular difficulty level: You must roll equal or less your full skill or characteristic[1].
*Hard: You have to roll equal to or below a half of your skill of characteristic.
*Extreme: You need to roll equal to or below a fifth of your skill or characteristic.

[1] In Call of Cthulhu 7, characteristics and skills are both represented as a % value ranging from 0% to 100%. Characteristics are determined with 3d6 x 5. Why RQG returned to a previous modality is beyond my grasp.

Player vs NPC: If you are facing a living entity (or sort of living; it's Cthulhu, remember), the difficulty is set based on a foe's complementary skill (Stealth is opposed by Spot Hidden, for example) and you don't make opposed rolls.

*If the opponent’s skill or characteristic is below 50, the difficulty level is Regular.
*If the opponent’s skill or characteristic is equal to or above 50, the difficulty level is Hard.
*If the opponent’s skill or characteristic is equal to or above 90, the difficulty level is Extreme.

Opposed skill rolls

When you make an opposed roll, you can get one of six results:

*Fumble: the roll is 100. If the roll required for success is less than 50, a roll of 96 or over is a fumble.
*Failure: the roll is above the character’s skill or characteristic (but not a fumble).
*Regular success: the roll is equal to or below the character’s skill or characteristic.
*Hard success: the roll is equal to or below a half of the character’s skill or characteristic.
*Extreme success: the roll is equal to or below a fifth of the character’s skill or characteristic.
*Critical success: a roll of 01.

Who wins? Critical beats Extreme; Extreme beats Hard; Hard beats Regular; Regular beats Failure and Fumble. In a tie, the higher skill or characteristic wins. If again it is a tie, then the Keeper declares and impasse or the players can re-roll.

Cthulhu doesn't have criticals and specials the way RuneQuest have them, but with these elegant rules, you not only get rid of the annoying resistance table (yeah, it's annoying and you know it; it was removed from CoC because of it), but also you can equal Extreme and Hard successes as Critical and Special successes.

You can armwrestle both ways. If a player wrestles another player, they make opposed rolls, if the player wrestles an NPC, he makes a skill roll with the difficulty determined by the appropriate opposing characteristic or skill. If the NPC is an important character or somehow it will be more interesting if the player and the GM both roll dice, then it can be an opposed roll as well.

Call of Cthulhu example of armwrestling:

Harvey gets drawn into a bar with Edgar, another investigator, and after getting drunk they start to fight. Investigators tend to be fat, so they fight as kids, armwrestling. There is nothing riding on the outcome of the game, but the players still want to know who wins. Both sides have the goal ‘to win’. These goals are mutually exclusive; if one wins the other must lose. The situation is also irreversible; if Edgar wins, there is nothing Harvey can do to change that. Neither has ‘armwrestling’ as a skill, so both agree to use STR. Both players roll a Regular success. Edgar has the higher STR, and so wins the wrestle.

As a commentary aside:

On 28/6/2017 at 6:56 AM, Jeff said:

Actually, the spread of result is why both are in. The two methods end up with different statistical spreads - and POW v POW has a certain expectation of result that we do not want to alter (and opposed resolution does alter that rather substantially - in a way that would change setting assumptions). Where the Resistance Table was traditionally used, we kept it. Where the Resistance Table was not used, and where just resolving the issue fast is desired (rather than preserving a certainly predictable spread of result), use a quick opposed resolution. 

The complementary skill setting the difficulty might be not the most realistic [I understad "the spread of result is why both are in. The two methods end up with different statistical spreads" as an intent to be more realistic or fairer] way to determine the exact chance of success, but nothing else is either. The resistance table just gives the impression the chances are fairer, but it's purely by chance when you succeed or fail. There is not an exact way to determine how realistic is it for you to win a contest; you can just flip a coin or roll many dice and compare results on a table. You don't know which of those will tell you the right result if it was a real-life intent, because probability is not divination, just statistics. You can determine probability with statistics and mathematics, but you can determine the outcome, just assume one. To assume an outcome it's just as good flipping coins than rolling dice than using a super computer that takes montsh to give an answer. Choose which is funnier for you, either because it's fastest to resolver or because it's more complex and rules-based or more probable (which would seem to be fairer). That's good. But what is not good is to say that this choice (to bring the resistance table back) was made because it is more realistic. Because that's not the case. And not especially in a world where ducks can kill people with lances.

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One thing that the Resistance table does that the straight rolls doesn't do is modify your chance based on the resistance. As only once dice is rolled, the active participant, it is for example easier for your spell to work on a POW 8 target than a POW 15 target, how much easier depends of your POW.

Let's say your adventurer has a POW of 12, in CoC this would be 60%. Two possible targets, POW 8 (CoC = 40%) or 15 (CoC = 75%). In CoC your adventurer would need to roll 60% or less on the first (regular difficulty), or 30% on the second (Hard Difficulty). In RGQ your rolls are 70% or 35% respectively (taken from the table). 

Now if your adventurer had POW 18 (80%) the difficulty levels are the same (80% on the first, and 40% on the second), but in RQG it would be 95% and 65%

Also with regard to Skills, RQG has adopted the 'high-roll wins ties' from HeroQuest rather than higher Skill, which IMO provides a better mechanic by allowing weaker opponents a chance to win. 

 

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6 hours ago, Psullie said:

One thing that the Resistance table does that the straight rolls doesn't do is modify your chance based on the resistance. As only once dice is rolled, the active participant, it is for example easier for your spell to work on a POW 8 target than a POW 15 target, how much easier depends of your POW.

Let's say your adventurer has a POW of 12, in CoC this would be 60%. Two possible targets, POW 8 (CoC = 40%) or 15 (CoC = 75%). In CoC your adventurer would need to roll 60% or less on the first (regular difficulty), or 30% on the second (Hard Difficulty). In RGQ your rolls are 70% or 35% respectively (taken from the table). 

Now if your adventurer had POW 18 (80%) the difficulty levels are the same (80% on the first, and 40% on the second), but in RQG it would be 95% and 65%.

I didn't consider this, but I don't think it's that important unless you really need more realistic probabilities. I guess I will choose what my players want. The resistance table is not hard to use, it only takes a few seconds to calculate. I will run both ways in different adventures to see which they like the most or which suits better our style.

But this, on the other hand:

Quote

Also with regard to Skills, RQG has adopted the 'high-roll wins ties' from HeroQuest rather than higher Skill, which IMO provides a better mechanic by allowing weaker opponents a chance to win.

This I guess is what really matters here. As CoC is not focused in combat, it can get away with it, but RQ will benefit a lot from this.

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Perhaps the 'highest score wins ties' is a better mechanic, although some of us probably find it counter-intuitive when rolling a percentile. For this reason I prefer the 'best success level wins' approach, although it really requires that extra success level ('Hard Success') from CoC 7E to work well. I'm considering doing this with RQG.

In regards to 'Opposed Rolls vs Resistance Table', I guess the Opposed Rolls is more modern, although there is alot of nostalgic enjoyment whenever I use the Resistance Table. I'm kinda happy to see it has returned.

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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