Quickstart - 2 Weapons Fight

[theotherrhialto]

Greetings to all. I have a little question.

I have seen that in the quickstart, a rule for 2 weapons fighting indicates the two weapons can be used for 2 attacks, 2 parries or 1 attack and 1 parry. However, I understand (or I think I do, I could very well be wrong), that a single weapon can be used for attacking and parrying except, it would seem, that it cannot both attack and parry on the same SR. A parry can be done at any time as it doesn't count for any SR.

What would therefore be the advantage of two weapons fighting in that terms, if any? Seems to me the main advantage is being able to parry a different attacker on the same SR the character is attacking another and thus has his attacking weapon engaged.

But then, I get confused:  could the attacking weapon still parry, as a single weapon would? Thus it wouldn't really be one attack and one parry but more like one attack and two parries without malus. Or two attacks and two parries without malus. It's this expression, "one attack and one parry" that confuses me, because it feels like it should be something different from the one weapon use, but with one weapon you already can perform one attack and one parry, and also, with one weapon, attack and parry are done at the full skill level, but if not trained with a second weapon, the second weapons actions are done with a serious penalty, which makes it even less attractive.

Or am I mistaken somewhere?

[styopa]

Dunno what the RQG full rules will finally say (almost certainly it'll be more fully explained there than the abbreviated qs rules), but IIRC RQ3 rules (which I think were basically the same as RQ2?) were:

A 1h weapon can attack or parry in a round, not both.  This is typically why a 1h wielder will also bear a parrying item like a shield or main gauche in the other hand.

1h wielders with a parrying item in the other hand cannot attack and parry in the same SR, nor parry 2x in the same SR.

2h weapon can attack AND parry in a round, but not do both in the same SR.

 

EDIT: I just looked in RQ2 (which is likely the primary driver of whatever RQG will have): 

TWO WEAPON USE
1. Any Adventurer using a weapon in each hand may use them for 2 attacks, 2 parries, or 1 attack and 1 parry.
...

5. When attacking with 2 weapons, the second attack is made at a strike rank equal to the strike rank of the frst attack added to the usual strike rank for the second weapon. Thus,
if the character has a strike rank of 5 for the frst weapon and a strike rank of 6 for the second, the second attack will come at strike rank 11. If the 2 strike ranks add up to more than 12, then both cannot attack in one round.
6. A character using 2 weapons at 100% or more with each weapon may attack one foe twice at full attack percentage (once with each weapon). He may attack 2 foes twice at
½ normal attack percentage (each being attacked once with each weapon). Or he may attack one at ½ attack ability with one weapon and the other at ½ attack ability with that
weapon and with full ability with the other weapon.
REMEMBER - The character must have suffcient strike ranks to encompass all of these attacks. If the character’s strike rank is 6 with each weapon, then he can only make 2 attacks (at strike rank 6 and strike rank 12), and no more.
 

So the weapon in the offhand can be used for a second attack, IF THERE ARE SUFFICIENT SR for it, and it will usually come quite late in the round.  If your SR sucks, basically an offhand weapon is really then only useful for parrying with OR if your primary gets shattered/lost/etc.  I'd rule that you can switch an offhand to main hand in combat in your DEX SR at no risk, or you can do it quick in no SR for a DEXx5 check.  

EDIT2: to answer your comments about the offhand attack penalty, in RQ2 the offhand weapon starts at a base of 5% and is trained/advanced as a separate skill from the main hand attack.

Edited June 30, 2017 by styopa

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

35 minutes ago, styopa said:

EDIT2: to answer your comments about the offhand attack penalty, in RQ2 the offhand weapon starts at a base of 5% and is trained/advanced as a separate skill from the main hand attack.

In the QS, the off hand now starts at half the % attack chance. The second attack is now made after the first weapons SR plus the SR of the second weapon.

• If your character doesn't have over 100% in attack skill ( think splitting attacks), then having 2 weapons gives you an option of having a second attack which wouldn't ordinarily be there.
• The rules for parry have now changed with the QS and refined in RQG. Unlike RQ2 you can now have multiple parries at cumulative - 20%, without the need for having over 100% to split parries. Thats a big change in the new combat rules. Not sure if there is an advantage with regards to the cumulative penalty with 2 weapons? Do you count the cumulative penalty separately for each weapon? If yes that would give a good parrying advantage.

Edit: Jason Durall has indicted that dodge is also effective in the same way as the new parry, and is inter-changeable with parry in a melee round. But the cumulative -20% penalty is counted towards any use  or combinations of parry and dodge in a melee round, so I suspect that is the same with 2 weapon parries. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

2 hours ago, theotherrhialto said:

A parry can be done at any time as it doesn't count for any SR

Its also been clarified by Jason Durall that you now have to use an SR for a parry, and you can't both attack and parry with a single weapon on the same SR.

This would lead me to believe that using two weapons, one in each hand, would give you the advantage over single weapon use of being able to both attack and parry on the same SR. 

[theotherrhialto]

53 minutes ago, styopa said:

 

A 1h weapon can attack or parry in a round, not both.  This is typically why a 1h wielder will also bear a parrying item like a shield or main gauche in the other hand.

1h wielders with a parrying item in the other hand cannot attack and parry in the same SR, nor parry 2x in the same SR.

2h weapon can attack AND parry in a round, but not do both in the same SR.

 

Thank you for your answer. Yes, that is indeed the main point of confusion for me. It  would appear, when reading about the rules for two weapons fighting, that it does imply that a 1h weapon can attack or parry in a round and not both, as per the RQ2 rules you quote, and it would thus seems logical that using two weapon has the first benefit of allowing one attack and one parry in the same round.

However, I am under the impression that the QS, and RQG are now allowing for a 1h weapon to attack and parry in the same round,  (just not in the same SR), although, as simple a thing to settle as it is, one way or the other, I didn't see it clearly established. So I could very well be mistaken. But it would be very easy to clarify by one of the authors.

[theotherrhialto]

20 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Its also been clarified by Jason Durall that you now have to use an SR for a parry, and you can't both attack and parry with a single weapon on the same SR.

This would lead me to believe that using two weapons, one in each hand, would give you the advantage over single weapon use of being able to both attack and parry on the same SR. 

We agree on that. If a 1 handed weapon can indeed attack and parry in the same round just not in the same SR, I see the fact of being able to attack and parry on the same SR becoming crucial in a fight with several opponents, allowing for the character to attack one foe and parry another who would attack him during the same SR.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Here's the link where Jason Durall goes into more detail about the new combat rules, and the changes from the abbreviated quick start:

 

[theotherrhialto]

Thank you Paid a bod yn dwp.

If I may stir some more troubles re: the rule of RQ2 about 1h weapon not able to attack and parry in the same round.

After digging into my old book rules (I am a bit rusty, I haven't played RQ since 1988 I believe). I find that in what I call RQ3, the Avalon Hill edition, there is indeed a mention that the adventurer "may not attack with a weapon with which he parries. Two-handed weapons, however, can be used to attack once and parry once." P48 of the player's guide.

However, in the 1980 RQ Chaosium Rulebook by Steve Perrin and Ray Turney (I guess it is considered as RQ1) P22, Rurik's Saga, example of fight. We have Rurik, wielding a one handed cudgel, against Herkan fighting with a rapier. And both attack and parry in the same round with their weapons. (I quote ' Second melee round, Herkan rolls 14 and Rurik's parry of 43 is another miss. The hit location is 9, abdomen, and Rurik feels the metal of the rapier enter his side. It's a shallow wound (only 2 points rolled for damage). Rurik misses his return attack and Herkan misses his parry. - I am too lazy to copy more, but on the third round, Herkan hits, Rurik misses his parry and Rurik succeeds in attack and Herkan misses his parry and gets hit. So both characters attack and parry in the same round.) Meaning one handed weapons could be both used to attack and parry. And it couldn't be argued that the weapon can be used to attack or parry in the same round because it misses its first action since, in the example I give, an attack hits, and then, the character is allowed to parry with the same one handed weapon in the same round.

So in the original RQ 1 handed weapons could be used to attack and parry in the same round. Things changed with the Avalon Hill RQ and, obviously, with the RQ2 from Mongoose. So I guess it might make sense for Chaosium to go back to the Chaosium version, i.e. RQ1, but with of course a few modern improvements.

Personnally, I can work with both, although I do prefer the 1h weapon can attack and parry in the same round. The AH version forces the character to forfet a parry if he wants to strike back when he has a slower SR than the attacker, which is very risky, or use dodge to avoid an attack instead of a parry when you are slower and still want to attack in the same round. It makes sense also, although in a "realistic way" I would see it happen in 3 or 6 seconds round and not 12, because it feels weird that you parry for 12 sec without being able to strike back. But in a shorter round unit, it feels more natural to choose between engaging your weapon in a parry or in an attack based on your speed or action/reaction.

 

 

 

 

 

[styopa]

The addition of allowing multiple parries in a round (with the -20 cumulative penalty) really does sort of obviate the value of a 2nd weapon for parrying purposes.  I would disagree that the relatively tiny additional capability of being able to parry in the same SR as being much of an advantage.  Sure it's an advantage, but that's a pretty edge case.

Having a shield for parrying purposes, well  & good, the shield has substantial utility vs missiles, but a main gauche if you can just keep parrying with the rapier anyway?  Not much point, really.   No pun intended.

[Psullie]

RQ has always taken the approach that Shields were just weapons that were better at parrying. And so the 1x parry & 1x attack = shield & sword, or 2x attacks (you could hit someone with the shield) or 2x parries. RQ3 was much more restrictive. 

I think the simplification with RQG is that while you don't need a shield it's pretty useful: higher damage resistance and protection. With the damage breaking rules using your rapid to parry the attacks may not be a wise approach in the long run. Also a main gauche (a renaissance anachronism in Glorantha) wouldn't be much use against a Great Troll's war club...

40 minutes ago, theotherrhialto said:

However, in the 1980 RQ Chaosium Rulebook by Steve Perrin and Ray Turney (I guess it is considered as RQ1)

The 1980 edition is RQ2. RQ1 is 1978 and credited to Steve Perrin & Friends. We don't mention the 'goose much in these parts (much like Ducks really :-) )

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, theotherrhialto said:

After digging into my old book rules (I am a bit rusty, I haven't played RQ since 1988 I believe). I find that in what I call RQ3, the Avalon Hill edition, there is indeed a mention that the adventurer "may not attack with a weapon with which he parries. Two-handed weapons, however, can be used to attack once and parry once." P48 of the player's guide.

Funny - you're going through the exact same issues I did when I retuned recently to the rulebooks of RuneQuest 2 and 3.

RQ2: You're totally right about the Rurik examples in RQ2. They illustrate both attacks & parries with the same single handed weapon being allowed in a melee round. Though when you nitpick the RQ2 rules you'll be hard pressed to find that specifically called out. Its only really the Rurik examples that show us properly that this is intended by the designers. 

RQ3 Avalon hill/Chaosium: You're also right in picking out that small sentence in RQ3 that says you can't both parry and attack with a single handed weapon in the same round. However that sentence was a mistakingly included in the final text of RQ3, and was removed in an errata in later publications. So RQ3 also officially used the same ruling for attacks and parries with single handed weapons as RQ2. 

Here's the specific errata correction which alters the ruling in RQ3 to fall in line with RQ2. ( tried uploading the RQ3 errata pdf but it wouldn't accept on the forum, maybe some else could direct you to an online version of the RQ3 errata?):

• Page 48:
  How to Parry. Delete the last two sentences of the first paragraph, and replace with: "In either case, no character may attack and parry with the same weapon on a single strike rank."

Edited June 30, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[theotherrhialto]

2 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

RQ3 Avalon hill/Chaosium: You're also right in picking out that small sentence in RQ3 that says you can't both parry and attack with a single handed weapon in the same round. However that sentence was a mistakingly included in the final text of RQ3, and was removed in an errata in later publications. So RQ3 also officially used the same ruling for attacks and parries with single handed weapons as RQ2. 

 

Here's the specific errata correction which alters the ruling in RQ3 to fall in line with RQ2. ( tried uploading the RQ3 errata pdf but it wouldn't accept on the forum, maybe some else could direct you to an online version of the RQ3 errata?):

• Page 48:
  How to Parry. Delete the last two sentences of the first paragraph, and replace with: "In either case, no character may attack and parry with the same weapon on a single strike rank."

Wow, thank you for the errata! And the historical lesson. I didn't take time trying to look into other versions like the gw print of RQ3 because I don't have them at hand but I remember we kept the old rule when playing with the AH version. Cheers!

[theotherrhialto]

3 hours ago, Psullie said:

The 1980 edition is RQ2. RQ1 is 1978 and credited to Steve Perrin & Friends. We don't mention the 'goose much in these parts (much like Ducks really :-) )

Yes, sorry, I get confused about this too sometimes. But it's because the goose is officially named as RQ2 so I'm not sure what is what when people mention RQ2. As for me, I'd call it RQ5, with RQ1 being indeed the 78, RQ2 the one I played with and I quoted, RQ3, the Avalon Hill, RQ4 the 1993 OGL version, RQ5 the Mongoose, version 1 and 2  (the version 2 being the one officially named RQII), RQ6 the Design Mechanism one and now we are onto RQ7 or RQG. It's just a matter or talking about the same thing. As for me, I started playing with the RQ 80s, the 2nd edition UK box version with the purple sides then used the AH box set but haven't tried any of the later versions so I'm more than happy to come home.

[styopa]

3 hours ago, Psullie said:

I think the simplification with RQG is that while you don't need a shield it's pretty useful: higher damage resistance and protection. 

FWIW in the QS rules Medium Shield and Broadsword have the same AP. :|

[styopa]

2 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Page 48:
How to Parry. Delete the last two sentences of the first paragraph, and replace with: "In either case, no character may attack and parry with the same weapon on a single strike rank."

We actually knew about the errata...and disregarded it.  We as a group thought it made sense that with a 1h article you could do one 'thing' a round, and with a 2h you could do 2 'things' a round.  It made the choice of weapons a much more interesting one than 'just pick the highest damage my STR/DEX can handle".

[theotherrhialto]

3 hours ago, styopa said:

The addition of allowing multiple parries in a round (with the -20 cumulative penalty) really does sort of obviate the value of a 2nd weapon for parrying purposes.  I would disagree that the relatively tiny additional capability of being able to parry in the same SR as being much of an advantage.  Sure it's an advantage, but that's a pretty edge case.

Having a shield for parrying purposes, well  & good, the shield has substantial utility vs missiles, but a main gauche if you can just keep parrying with the rapier anyway?  Not much point, really.   No pun intended.

I think it makes sense in the end, I agree with your and Psullie. A shield protects you from missiles and absorbs more damages. A main gauche not much and it doesn't fit in the Gloranthan style. The edge would really be either in duel with the same kind of weapon, or with multiple opponents so it would be a case by case but in general not necessary unless you are really proficient with it. And it certainly wouldn't be of much use against a troll's club.

[theotherrhialto]

3 minutes ago, styopa said:

We actually knew about the errata...and disregarded it.  We as a group thought it made sense that with a 1h article you could do one 'thing' a round, and with a 2h you could do 2 'things' a round.  It made the choice of weapons a much more interesting one than 'just pick the highest damage my STR/DEX can handle".

As I said before, I also like this system except that in my mind it doesn't fit with a 12sec round. But I do like the tactical choice of weapons and whether to use a parry, a dodge or take it all and ripost if you use a 1h weapon. Just seems more "real" on a shorter time period. I can see it in a very short round, but it is harder to imagine just parrying during 12sec. I guess it comes to the same feeling that is being discussed about multiple missile attacks on another thread.

[jajagappa]

19 minutes ago, theotherrhialto said:

But it's because the goose is officially named as RQ2 so I'm not sure what is what when people mention RQ2.

The common conventions are:  RQ2 is Chaosium RuneQuest 2nd ed. from 1980; MRQ is Mongoose RuneQuest; MRQ2 is Mongoose RQ 2nd ed.

[theotherrhialto]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

The common conventions are:  RQ2 is Chaosium RuneQuest 2nd ed. from 1980; MRQ is Mongoose RuneQuest; MRQ2 is Mongoose RQ 2nd ed.

Thanks. It does make it clear. I'll remember that.

[Mugen]

8 hours ago, theotherrhialto said:

RQ4 the 1993 OGL version

The OGL version is MRQ1. Open Gaming Licences did not exist before Wizards of the Coast released D&D 3rd edition in 2001.

Also, RQIV:Adventures in Glorantha is an unpublished game.

[Psullie]

8 hours ago, styopa said:

FWIW in the QS rules Medium Shield and Broadsword have the same AP. :|

Yes but when a shield Parries it absorbs all damage, your broadsword only current APs with the balance gong to the arm

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

12 hours ago, theotherrhialto said:

Wow, thank you for the errata! And the historical lesson. I didn't take time trying to look into other versions like the gw print of RQ3 because I don't have them at hand but I remember we kept the old rule when playing with the AH version. Cheers!

You're Welcome - I too started with the UK RQ2 edition by games workshop (just the main rulebook), then bought into RQ3 hardbacks published by GW. I didn't  try any of the other later versions, partly as they didn't appeal, and also I wasn't playing RPG's.  Only recently come out of a deep RPG freeze.

I too played RQ3 presuming the RQ2 ruling on parries was still legit, then one day I "properly" read RQ3 and was quite surprised by that sentence which didn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of the whole rulebook. Years later with the errata to hand now I see why - wish I had had the errata back in the day.

I think whether we played RQ2 or 3 we were always flexible with parries allowing their use in a fairly unrestrained way. Didn't take into consideration the need to be over 100% in parry to be able to split parries - we just parried  I like the streamlined way the new RQG rules interpret parry - you can parry & dodge  multiple times but with a cumulative -20% penalty. It has flexibility and its a simple rule to remember.

My two Blogs - I always imagined a smaller one handed weapon being much quicker and lighter to use then a two handed weapon. To my mind you're more likely to be able to parry and attack in a small space of time. Two handed weapons I associate with being heavier and slower to wield and less likely to both parry and attack in a small space of time, but perhaps doing more damage. Though its difficult to put a blanket rule on weapons types as there's always variety. I think they've got the right balance in the new rules, better to not slow down the game too much with lots of options, bit of streamlining is good and keeps the game moving fast.

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[theotherrhialto]

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

The OGL version is MRQ1. Open Gaming Licences did not exist before Wizards of the Coast released D&D 3rd edition in 2001.

Also, RQIV:Adventures in Glorantha is an unpublished game.

Right, I read a bit too fast when I went to check the story of the franchise. On the site I read it was actually MRQ1 that was called RQ4, thus me mixing up OGL and a wrong date but they also mentioned a "Runequest Slayers" in the 90s as unpublished, in between the 3rd and the 4th edition and having gone from Avalon Hill to Wizards.  A quick online search seems to indicate it has not much to do with the other versions of RQ and also indicates that RQ adventures in Glorantha was also originally commissioned by AH but never published commercially. I wonder if it shared the same system as slayers since they both originate in the same company in the same time period. Details of course and irrelevant to the conversation. The 90s is the decade when I went rpg dormant so I missed quite a few chapters in the evolution of some games I liked! But as a consequence, to me it feels like this new RQ comes right after the RQ3, so it's cool.

[Mugen]

5 hours ago, theotherrhialto said:

Right, I read a bit too fast when I went to check the story of the franchise. On the site I read it was actually MRQ1 that was called RQ4, thus me mixing up OGL and a wrong date but they also mentioned a "Runequest Slayers" in the 90s as unpublished, in between the 3rd and the 4th edition and having gone from Avalon Hill to Wizards.  A quick online search seems to indicate it has not much to do with the other versions of RQ and also indicates that RQ adventures in Glorantha was also originally commissioned by AH but never published commercially. I wonder if it shared the same system as slayers since they both originate in the same company in the same time period. Details of course and irrelevant to the conversation. The 90s is the decade when I went rpg dormant so I missed quite a few chapters in the evolution of some games I liked! But as a consequence, to me it feels like this new RQ comes right after the RQ3, so it's cool.

No, they have nothing in common. RQ4 was a percentile system and an evolution of RQ3. It was also meant to be tied to Glorantha. 

RQ Slayers was an attempt to make a RPG when AH lost the rights to use BRP, but not the RuneQuest name. It had a strange system, where you rolled d6s in combat and tried to get as many 6s as you could, and non-combat used 2d10 under attributes. It was also set in a world without any connection with Glorantha. Then Hasbro (not WotC) bought AH, and they decided to shelf the game, as they had acquired it for its boardgames. A pdf of the finished game was put online some times later.

[Atgxtg]

On 6/30/2017 at 3:37 PM, theotherrhialto said:

After digging into my old book rules (I am a bit rusty, I haven't played RQ since 1988 I believe). I find that in what I call RQ3, the Avalon Hill edition, there is indeed a mention that the adventurer "may not attack with a weapon with which he parries. Two-handed weapons, however, can be used to attack once and parry once." P48 of the player's guide.

This was changed in the RQ 3 errata: (Page 48) How to Parry. Delete the last two sentences of the first paragraph, and replace with: "In either case,
no character may attack and parry with the same weapon on a single strike rank."

 So if you were going to attack on SR 5 but had to parry in SR 5 before you attack came up, you'd have to attack on SR 6. Or, if you were attacked on SR 5 after your attack, you'd have to parry with the "other" carried weapon/shield (if any) or dodge.