Runequest is for giants

[styopa]

From the QS: Small elemental: 3m x 3m x 3m = 27cbm (the size of a 10'x10'x10' room!)

"In combat, the earth elemental uses its volume to engulf its opponents, opening a pit beneath a foe with a maximum volume equal to its own volume. "

Yet

"A small earth elemental simply engulfs the victim’s legs."

If it makes a pit that's 10'x10'x10' (basically), but only engulfs a victim's legs, HOW BIG MUST THAT VICTIM BE???

That would suggest that your average humanoid would be at least 6m tall?

 

[Mugen]

3 hours ago, styopa said:

From the QS: Small elemental: 3m x 3m x 3m = 27cbm (the size of a 10'x10'x10' room!)

"In combat, the earth elemental uses its volume to engulf its opponents, opening a pit beneath a foe with a maximum volume equal to its own volume. "

Yet

"A small earth elemental simply engulfs the victim’s legs."

If it makes a pit that's 10'x10'x10' (basically), but only engulfs a victim's legs, HOW BIG MUST THAT VICTIM BE???

That would suggest that your average humanoid would be at least 6m tall?

Well, perhaps the pit created by the elemental has the same volume, but different dimensions.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

Well, perhaps the pit created by the elemental has the same volume, but different dimensions.

Absolutely!  Everyone says how good RQ is for sandbox-y games...

[Joerg]

In case of an earth elemental, I wonder how quickly it can affect its environment - while able to affect that much of its element, how quickly can it do so, which means what can it do in a combat situation?

In preparation for an ambush, the earth elemental can provide a deep pit. Summoned to the earth of the combat ground, it may be limited to smaller volumes within the shorter time of a foe moving across the combat area. Once grabbed, it might attempt to pull its victim further down.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

In case of an earth elemental, I wonder how quickly it can affect its environment - while able to affect that much of its element, how quickly can it do so, which means what can it do in a combat situation?

The initial question came up in my game, and @Joerg's thought was what I came up with.

Eventually, an elemental can open a pit equal to its volume on the right soil, but it must be limited to something like 1cu.m per elemental size per round.

[soltakss]

It is basically because a gnome that opens up a pit and then claps it shut does damage to all affected hit locations, at least that's what we used to play. If a gnome sucked you into a pit and then smashed it shut, hitting all hit locations it would probably be instadeath. Breaking both legs is tame by comparison.

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, soltakss said:

It is basically because a gnome that opens up a pit and then claps it shut does damage to all affected hit locations, at least that's what we used to play. If a gnome sucked you into a pit and then smashed it shut, hitting all hit locations it would probably be instadeath.

Looking back to RQ2, the problem actually exists there and is carried forward.  Small elementals could damage the legs only, medium up to the chest, large would engulf completely. But the cubic meter sizes are out of proportion.  Small elemental at 3x3x3 cu.m would clearly engulf anyone.  If the size was only 1 cu.m then legs would be it.

[styopa]

14 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Looking back to RQ2, the problem actually exists there and is carried forward.  Small elementals could damage the legs only, medium up to the chest, large would engulf completely. But the cubic meter sizes are out of proportion.  Small elemental at 3x3x3 cu.m would clearly engulf anyone.  If the size was only 1 cu.m then legs would be it.

Ie if the dimensions were in feet, not meters?

Iirc rq3 solved that by simply setting the cubic volume, and not worrying about the dimensions: a small elemental was 3 cbm, a medium 6, and a large 9. Iirc this then also tracked very neatly to their stats, as a 3cbm elemental was generally 3d6 in STR/SIZ, a 6 was 6d6 and so on.  Made it pretty simple.  

And while 3cbm still is pretty large vs the SIZ of a humanoid, it was a little more easily rationalized than claiming a completely amorphous predator the size of a bedroom can only consume the legs of a humanoid target.

[Atgxtg]

20 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Looking back to RQ2, the problem actually exists there and is carried forward.  Small elementals could damage the legs only, medium up to the chest, large would engulf completely. But the cubic meter sizes are out of proportion.  Small elemental at 3x3x3 cu.m would clearly engulf anyone.  If the size was only 1 cu.m then legs would be it.

Yeah, I think it probably makes more sense, in game terms if the elemental could only affect hit locations based on the relative SIZ between the elemental and the victim-much the same way somebody has to be above a certain SIZ to hit anything other than the leg of a a Giant. For example, Fire Elementals are limited to engulfing 10 SIZ of enemy per cubic meter, but earth emental have much less of a limitation. 

The problem is that, for elementals, 1 cubic meter =1 SIZ point, and the relation is completely linear, but for characters 1 cubic meter is closer to 80 SIZ points (based on the mass of water), and the SIZ only changes by 8 per doubling/halving (per the latest SIZ table). 

 

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

For example, Fire Elementals are limited to engulfing 10 SIZ of enemy per cubic meter, ...

Not to veer too much away from Earth Elementals, but that's hardly much of a "limit"...?

A "small" fire elemental is 27cbm, meaning they can engulf 270 SIZ points of victims or 20 average-sized humans at the same time.  It's more or less RQ's 'fireball' spell but enduring, as they would all take 3-18 points of damage to general hp IGNORING ARMOR  (ie on average killing nearly everyone), and that happens EVERY ROUND for 75 rounds.  

That's a 1 point Rune Spell, btw.

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, styopa said:

Not to veer too much away from Earth Elementals, but that's hardly much of a "limit"...?

A "small" fire elemental is 27cbm, meaning they can engulf 270 SIZ points of victims or 20 average-sized humans at the same time.  It's more or less RQ's 'fireball' spell but enduring, as they would all take 3-18 points of damage to general hp IGNORING ARMOR  (ie on average killing nearly everyone), and that happens EVERY ROUND for 75 rounds.  

Yeah, it's a limit only in the literal sense. 

IMO I think elementals should be limited a bit more by relative SIZ. I could see the 3x3x3m volume mean that an elemental could only drop a victim by 3m a round (1D6 falling damage) or some such. But then I'd also be more inclined to make the smaller elementals, smaller. 1mx1mx1m  (1 cubic meter)seems like a better starting point. And we could double each of the sides per addtional Rune Point. So a 2 point elemental could be 2x2x2m (8 cubic meters), a 3 point one 4x4x4 (64 cubic meters), and so forth. 

3 hours ago, styopa said:

That's a 1 point Rune Spell, btw.

Yup, and I could see a group of characters in the new RQ each summoning up an elemental, and taking down hoards of opponents. How did they defeat such a vast array of Chaotic nasties? Elementally.. 

[Mark Mohrfield]

Elementals are one of the few things that I think should have been taken from RQ3, where their statistics increase by one level per cubic meter (i.e. an earth elemental has 1d6+6 STR per cubic meter). By changing the spell so that it summons elementals of one cubic meter per rune point they do not get so overpowered IMO.,

Edited July 3, 2017 by Mark Mohrfield

[AlbertG]

It would be interesting to read @Jason Durall take on this issue.

I agree that you cannot have a SMALL Earth elemental of 3x3x3 m, and say it can only crush your legs. But it's just a matter of scale, you could just say it's 1x1x1 and keep the remaining stats the same, and it would work better.

Edited July 4, 2017 by AlbertG

[kaydet]

27 cubic meters is a lot of anything. I think I will definitely be downsizing them in any game I run. 

[Mugen]

I wonder if the people in charge of stating elementals did not make an error, considering 3x3x3 was in fact 3 cubic meters. That would be in line with RQ3 3 cubic meters elementals, which had most of their characteristics rolled with 3d6.

And the 10 SIZ per cubic meter was also a rule in RQ3.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Mugen

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

I wonder if the people in charge of stating elementals did not make an error, considering 3x3x3 was in fact 3 cubic meters. That would be in line with RQ3 3 cubic meters elementals, which had most of their characteristics rolled with 3d6.

And the 10 SIZ per cubic meter was also a rule in RQ3.

That's what I was thinking, which would make them 3x1x1 and better fit the shapes described In RQ2.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

considering 3x3x3 was in fact 3 cubic meters

Or perhaps it was originally 3 feet x 3 feet x 3 feet (or 1 cu meter)?

[DSC1978]

Using this thread instead of opening a new one ; is it normal for some of the elementals to have 0 movement?!?

When it comes to the rest of the discussions i would go personally for level 1, 2 and 3 elemental and apply level instead of cubic meter for the effect...

[AlbertG]

19 minutes ago, DSC1978 said:

Using this thread instead of opening a new one ; is it normal for some of the elementals to have 0 movement?!?

When it comes to the rest of the discussions i would go personally for level 1, 2 and 3 elemental and apply level instead of cubic meter for the effect...

I'd say no. In the QS, some elementals erroneously list their damage modifier in the movement row, and they don't list their movement. For instance, the Earth Elemental does not have a Movement of 0/1d6/2d6 (Small, Medium, Large); instead, they have those modifiers to their damage.

[AlbertG]

18 hours ago, Richard S. said:

That's what I was thinking, which would make them 3x1x1 and better fit the shapes described In RQ2.

A pit of this size would still be enough to bury any human.

[Mugen]

38 minutes ago, AlbertG said:

A pit of this size would still be enough to bury any human.

Well, the rule being 10 SIZ per cubic meter, it will be enough to bury 2 average humans (SIZ 13).

[styopa]

10 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Well, the rule being 10 SIZ per cubic meter, it will be enough to bury 2 average humans (SIZ 13).

Not if they're GIANTS!! (cf the thread title)

[Atgxtg]

20 hours ago, Richard S. said:

That's what I was thinking, which would make them 3x1x1 and better fit the shapes described In RQ2.

1.44m x1.44m x1.44 m would do that as well, and give you something with a proportional shape similar to the default. 

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, DSC1978 said:

is it normal for some of the elementals to have 0 movement?!?

That's an error in the text.  That should be the Damage Modifier line and the Movement line is missing.  If you check the elemental listed with Vishi Dun in the supplemental character sheet, you'll find the correct information:

Damage Modifier 0
Movement 3

[DSC1978]

Thanks guys.