Jump to content
David Scott

Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 3 - Pelorian

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, jrutila said:

This section was of great interest to me personally as I am planning to run the starting scenario from the "Red Sun Rising" book from D101 Games. This section paints a picture of ancient, patriarchal and conservative culture that is now influenced by Lunar religion. That is in line with the scenario. Apparently the "Lunarization" of Peloria went much more peacefully than in Sartar? Is it that the Sun and the Moon are not competing of the control of the same space like the Moon and Air are?

The Lunarization of Sartar is uniquely oppressive, isn't it, even compared to the Lunarization of the (Orlanthi-majority) Provinces? Obviously that process was often harsh at times, but there was nothing like the threat of a complete genocide of an entire country like with the Windstop.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The city wall of Alkoth is a perfect circle of green jade, presumably the armring of Shargash. This means that the size of Alkoth has remained constant throughout the ages.

Or it has grown magically over the ages and gives the appearance of being unchanging. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or rather - Herustana is the mistress of the land within the city confines, as she was of the Ark, while Thilla is the nurturing goddess of the lands around?

They seem to equate to Earth Mother/Land Goddess and Grain Goddess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Or it has grown magically over the ages and gives the appearance of being unchanging. 

Possible, but I would rather have Alkoth's otherworldly interior adapt to spatial needs than its imposing outside.

Given the martial nature of the city, there will be training or at least mustering grounds inside those walls, too. The Green City might even have pleasant parks around its huge bonehouse enclosures, which I suspect extend deeply underground and into the Underworld of the Shadzoring demons who ruled much of the surface world during the Darkness and the Gray Age.

If we are to believe the Enclosure magazine write-up, the interior of Alkoth qualifies as not quite of the Surface world. While the metropolis has a semblance of normal surface world life, there may be initiation rites to undergo upon entering the city, at least for first-time visitors, which basically are a ritual death.

The outside has areas reserved for martial training and as open fields of fire in case of sieges before giving way to the rice paddies of the normal folk of Henjarl who hold their ruling metropolis in a mixture of awe and fear.

Alkoth has been besieged for a significant fraction of its existence in Time - in sum at least a century - but never been taken by military means (or by starvation).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Herustana presumably was in charge of feeding the people and beasts on the Ark during the Flood, and her magics might still apply for the confines of the city of Yuthuppa. I read some of the passages from the Ark myths in GRoY that the Ark had an arboretum, and possibly a garden of potted plants as well. This would mean that the metropolis of Yuthuppa may have some horticulture terraces atop lower tier roofs of vaguely ziggurat-like domicils.

Thilla does fulfill the land goddess tasks - from the text I would guess for significant parts of Peloria in general, and for the surrounds of Yuthuppa in particular. Given its position smack-dash in the rice-growing area of Peloria, I expect paddies with a few dam ways in between, interrupted by canals for boating, and a few broad roads that may even accommodate gazzam (even though Yuthuppa is the newest of the three Tripolis metropolises - Raibanth has roads that have trembled under the footsteps of Gazzam carrying howdas or heavy loads).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Joerg said:

Herustana presumably was in charge of feeding the people and beasts on the Ark during the Flood, and her magics might still apply for the confines of the city of Yuthuppa.

IIRC the ark ends up on the Mound of Herustana which suggests more than just Ark Mother.

It's unclear what the extent of Thilla's position is.  Certainly Yuthuppa and immediate surroundings, but not sure about beyond that, and not sure she really has the land goddess aspect which is often the granting of sovereignty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

IIRC the ark ends up on the Mound of Herustana which suggests more than just Ark Mother.

IMO the Arc transforms into the city of Yuthuppa. Sure, the major representative buildings still need to be erected from fired mud bricks, but the overall layout and function based on a reflection of the sky world may already be a feature of the Ark's hull as it falls or lays down providing the layout for the city.

 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It's unclear what the extent of Thilla's position is.  Certainly Yuthuppa and immediate surroundings, but not sure about beyond that, and not sure she really has the land goddess aspect which is often the granting of sovereignty.

Thilla is mentioned under minor deities, alongside fairly heavy weights like Dendara, Entekos and Erissa. She is the Keeper of the Earth, not quite a land goddess/sovereignty goddess.

But then, Brighteye (young Yelm when he usurped Emperorship from the White Goddess) did away with all that stuff linking the women to sovereignty. Brighteye takes his authority from the sky, and burns dissidents away. That icky fertility stuff is left to the urban orb deities like Raibamus, Alkor or Yuthu and their consorts, or to Lodril and Oria off in the fields, and it has nothing to do with the principle of Measured Command from Above, the literal translation of Denseb, the Dara Happan term for Justice (and by extension, soverignty).

On the Gods Wall, Thilla is another name for Oropum on 1-25, one of three deities in the same costume in the top row (at the end of it), besides a separate mention as position 12 in the third row (and heavily criticized in the comment). Looks like Plentonius was confused about this. Herustana doesn't appear on the Gods Wall, and how should she when her husband Anaxial doesn't, either.

GRoY has lists of its poleis "bessed by <male deity>, nurtured by <female deitiy>". Yuthuppa first appears in Anaxial's Septopolis, inserted on the Oslir River between Raibanth and Verapur, and receives Buserian as the blessing deity and Thilla as the nurturing goddess. Note that the blessing deity is a much heavier caliber than the orb of the city god. Antirius gets to hang overhead Raibamus, and Shargash overshadows Alkor. Thilla is mentioned in the company of Lesilla, Avarnia, Dendara, Gamara and an unknown goddess for Elempur.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a bit behind in my reading this week, but I've finally managed to catch up and get my notes finished.

So many things of interest to me and this week's other sections. For example, the huge contrast between the Dara Happans and the Lodrilli. The coloured "uniforms" also stand out.

I'm not going to go on further about the "description" (art direction) and the art mismatching, but I will say that I'm a bit surprised that the artist decided not to include the henna decoration of the hands of the female cultist. I still think that the proportions have been altered on the finished art - the sketches that @David Scott has kindly provided look perfectly proportioned, but the art on p.40 doesn't (the size of the head of the female seems to be enormous).

I, too, love the mattock head on p.42. Excellent. And the Lodrilli sound so interesting. As with so many things so far, I just want to learn more!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Steve said:

I, too, love the mattock head on p.42.

When I first thought about this, it was a bucket, with the ears being used to attach the rope handle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Something I never noticed about this piece of art was who had initialled it. Along with DCB and the usual @Dogboy glyph, we've also FGS 1994. FGS is a rare sight.

When we doing the GRoY, there was a lot of too and fro, about ideas. So I signed FGS on pieces he had a hand in.
 For instance, this piece came about because we needed several pieces of regalia for the Muster of Khordavu. There were a orb and sceptre, and I thought having 3 objects that reflected the 3 Brothers was a good idea: Dayzatar as the Orb, Yelm as the Sceptre, and Lodril as.... a bucket or spade. Greg pointed out I'd drawn a mattock head not a spade head :P.
Later Dayzatar and Yelm became the Sceptre, but I only ever drew the Dayzatar side. I had some whacky idea for an abstract design for the Orb, that revealed Runes if turned in the hand, but it never made it to a full illustration (it is in the final Khordavu piece though).

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 6:34 PM, Joerg said:

Thilla does fulfill the land goddess tasks - from the text I would guess for significant parts of Peloria in general, and for the surrounds of Yuthuppa in particular. Given its position smack-dash in the rice-growing area of Peloria, I expect paddies with a few dam ways in between, interrupted by canals for boating, and a few broad roads that may even accommodate gazzam (even though Yuthuppa is the newest of the three Tripolis metropolises - Raibanth has roads that have trembled under the footsteps of Gazzam carrying howdas or heavy loads).

 

On ‎11‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 6:38 PM, jajagappa said:

It's unclear what the extent of Thilla's position is.  Certainly Yuthuppa and immediate surroundings, but not sure about beyond that, and not sure she really has the land goddess aspect which is often the granting of sovereignty.

 

On ‎11‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 8:26 PM, Joerg said:

On the Gods Wall, Thilla is another name for Oropum on 1-25, one of three deities in the same costume in the top row (at the end of it), besides a separate mention as position 12 in the third row (and heavily criticized in the comment). Looks like Plentonius was confused about this. Herustana doesn't appear on the Gods Wall, and how should she when her husband Anaxial doesn't, either.

Thilla is probably based on the same root as Esvuthil, Velthil and Althil, the northeastern lands of Dara Happa and Rinliddi, mentioned in FS mostly on the maps. 

Animals may graze here and Thilla might be an animal mother like Redalda and Avarnia (the Gods Wall suggestion would be misleading).

Rye grows in cold regions. But Lesilla is another possible candidate as goddess of rye, with her city of Mernita being the furthest north in the empire in the Dominion of Antirius.

 

 

Edited by Tcneseleis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Thilla is probably based on the same root as Esvuthil, Velthil and Althil, the northeastern lands of Dara Happa and Rinliddi, mentioned in FS mostly on the maps. 

Nice catch. Esvuthil might basically be the land dedicated to Thilla.

2 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Animals may graze here and Thilla might be an animal mother like Redalda and Avarnia (the Gods Wall suggestion would be misleading).

The old essay on horses in Glorantha had a special breed of sered horses associated to Yuthuppa, so there have to be sufficiently dry pastures in Esvuthil. Buserian is by his name and history the Sacrificer of Cattle, so it can be assumed that there will be cattle breeding in the neighborhood of the city. However, I strongly doubt that the Dara Happans have any cities predominantly relying on herds for their sustenance. Farming tends to yield more food per area.

2 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Rye grows in cold regions. But Lesilla is another possible candidate as goddess of rye, with her city of Mernita being the furthest north in the empire in the Dominion of Antirius.

If you look at the other nurturers, none of these are associated with a personal grain. Dendara is anything but an agricultural deity, her role is that of wifely fidelity and giving birth to strong sons.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Thilla is probably based on the same root as Esvuthil, Velthil and Althil

same comment as Joerg - nice catch!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Joerg said:

The old essay on horses in Glorantha had a special breed of sered horses associated to Yuthuppa, so there have to be sufficiently dry pastures in Esvuthil. Buserian is by his name and history the Sacrificer of Cattle, so it can be assumed that there will be cattle breeding in the neighborhood of the city. However, I strongly doubt that the Dara Happans have any cities predominantly relying on herds for their sustenance. Farming tends to yield more food per area.

Redalda (or Gamara) and Avarnia were, respectively, the nurturers of Nivorah and Verapur, and are not grain or plant goddesses either. Others might be, for instance Biselenslib of Alkoth is connected with weeds, and perhaps frogs and worms and the river banks, but I think people there prefer Everina the goddess of rice. The word "thil" may mean something like pasture indeed, although another goddess such as Pela may prevail among peasants.

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

If you look at the other nurturers, none of these are associated with a personal grain. Dendara is anything but an agricultural deity, her role is that of wifely fidelity and giving birth to strong sons.

The highest virtue prevails. Her role seems to merge with that of Antirius as protector and possibly the epitome of male virtues, which makes the nurturer/protector duality merely a male/female division of the city cult.

 

Edited by Tcneseleis
deleted useless sentence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's intriguing that the Lunar Way, while rotten at the core in the Heartlands, seems to produce pretty good outcomes at the more recently Lunarized outskirts. Arrolia and the Lunar Provinces (Lunar Tarsh in particular) look like among the nicest places to live in Glorantha. If the New Moon Empire mentioned in Argrath's story is indeed the breakaway Lunar Provinces, I would imagine it was not an overly bad empire.

Edited by Akhôrahil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/11/2017 at 5:37 AM, Tcneseleis said:

Lodrilli villagers live in houses made of mud-brick, reeds, or timber, depending on the local resources. Village houses are small and tightly packed together, often forming clusters of adjoined houses with the rooftops used as pathways, and the dwellings accessed by hatches in the ceiling using ladders or stairs.

Sounds like Çatal Hüyük

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Or Taos Pueblo for that matter. 

AFAIK, the Pueblo folk used mostly "doorways" in the walls, much as modern "normal" (at least in this regard) houses .

At Catal Huyuk, I believe you needed a ladder to climb out the door on the roof ...

 

Edited by g33k

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm late this week, and most of the things, that I've found were already mentioned here, but anyway ...

a lot of the descriptions for Pelorians seemed to be familiar as long as they were related to the Lunar Empire, because they matched, what I've learned about it in several Sartar based publications. The existence of the Lodrili people outside of the cities was a surprise. Never heard about them before. So there is more than just Dara Happans in Pelorian lands ...

Also new to me: the social structure with Nobles, Witnesses (?) and Officers, Headmen, Workers and Slaves. Why Witnesses? What do they witness?

The ceremonial mattock is great. Looks really authentic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Oracle said:

Also new to me: the social structure with Nobles, Witnesses (?) and Officers, Headmen, Workers and Slaves. Why Witnesses? What do they witness?

They witness the sacrifices to Yelm.  The name is unusual but there is a reason for it.  In the Imperial Age, an emperor ennobled many capable peoples by claiming their ancestors worshipped Yelm (the so-called Old Families).  The Officers were the Emperor's agents in governmental duties while the Witnesses were his stooges in priestly matters.  The Officers and Witnesses today descend from those people, doing the same jobs even because that's the kind of society Dara Happa is.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/07/2017 at 0:25 AM, Joerg said:

 

On 12/07/2017 at 0:25 AM, Joerg said:

If we are to believe the Enclosure magazine write-up, the interior of Alkoth qualifies as not quite of the Surface world. While the metropolis has a semblance of normal surface world life, there may be initiation rites to undergo upon entering the city, at least for first-time visitors, which basically are a ritual death.

These rites are described in Dara Happa Stirs. While a non-canon source, I see no reason to think that part is wrong. The visitor is struck on the neck with a fake axe made of reeds. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...