Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 3 - Western

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

I read all this stuff as how an observant outsider in 1625 Seshnela (Tanisor) would describe local cultural norms -- the facts on the ground -- while including local explanations and accounts of alternative Western practices where they support or at least fill voids in that narrative.

I wonder how "Malkioni" the Tanisorans are in their ancestry, and how well that preserves their (rather diminutive) stature, when there are so many Hykimi and Chthonic influences.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

Obviously the chapter reflects the "all you malestini must listen" Brithinocentric puritanical party line coming down from Leplain because that's what the wizards say, but the narrator is good to let facts that don't fit the dogma remain unchallenged.

The Malkioni schools entering into the Hero Wars are all heavily modified versions. The Waertagi version might be the best approximation to an original version that includes worship or veneration rather than atheism. Zzabur appears to have demonized all forms of veneration (except possibly of himself).

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

Modern Seshegi talars engage in war all the time.

Brithini Talars have been in charge of Horali operations since before Time.

An observation about the need for a warrior caste - does this make more sense for the Late Golden Age, or for the onset of the Storm Age?

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

At best, the historical "use of weapons" in the shape of regalia defies strict caste boundaries,

This comes down to the question what business does a general have on the front line? Leadership by example is the job of Horali champions or Men-of-all. Only by the dissolution of the Men-of-all was the opener for the Kshatriya combination of noble and warrior.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

and then you've got the cavalry (to satisfy some ghost of the old "knights on horseback" image?). 

I am thinking about kshatryan cavalry here rather than anything European middle ages.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

These facts are gold because they trace some of the ways their society has deviated from the Brithini ideal Since Time and may yet do so again. Maybe at some point the Tanisorians ran out of "legitimate" talars and these are really the heirs of the old horal caste (*) doing the best they can.

I wonder how closely related the Tanisorans are to the Brithini who first settled Frowal and expanded from there. There is a chance that descendants of emigrants to Jrustela during Nralar's reign returned to the area during the Return to Rightness crusade, but otherwise I would expect the majority of the population to be descendants of the people of the Vampire Kings and of the Enerali.

When Old Seshnela drowned, a majority of the original families will have been hit before they could seek refuge on higher land, and I guess that side effects like tidal waves drowned many more. The old, pagan-tainted places in the western highlands appear to have been sparsely populated at best, and for some reason or other these lands appear to have been abandoned even after the lands stopped sinking. The former eastern fringe became the new heartlands of Seshnela.

The last wave of Brithini emigrants appears to have gone to Jrustela rather than Seshnela, so that this blood refresh was lost in the Closing and the drowning of Jrustela. So how comes that the Seshnegi remained so short? Can't be their diet, from the text I get the impression that Seshnegi peasants eat better than warriors or bureaucrats in Peloria.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

They aren't censured for fighting because the wizards know the truth, but as the local gentry they're also happy to make someone else do the fighting first, which is where the people with hykimite lineage get pressed into service. Or something like that. 

I really like how you make the Rokari wizards' celibacy an admission of their inadequate ancestry. I wonder how much they select their wizards in training for physical characteristics...

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

Anyhow, the point is that the rokarites are doing it wrong and I'm happy the text supports this reading.

Yes - seeing the Rokari way presented as the standard way goes a gainst my grain, and then some. But then I probably spent too much time thinking about henotheist Malkioni in Ralios and elsewhere.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I really like how you make the Rokari wizards' celibacy an admission of their inadequate ancestry. I wonder how much they select their wizards in training for physical characteristics...

Thanks. Even my hatred for them observes a certain delicacy around their obvious intellectual failures. But it's interesting that if the ancestral "zzaburites" have such a Napoleon complex need to be taller for the magic to work, that sounds like a different original gene pool from the baseline Brithini type. Whether that's simply a separate bride of Malkion bringing height (and probably blueness) into the system or something more sinister in its complications, I don't want to read ahead.

(I've never seen a reference to the old Vadeli being low in SIZ and I seem to recall the Veldang are relatively tall, for what that's worth. Height might also come to signify facility with magic at a certain historical moment, possibly with tall wizards staging some sort of coup within the blue caste. Also we are dealing with a civilization singled out in the texts for turning "ancestor worship" or genealogy into a military science, so these questions are important.)

The notion of them swiping perfectly good children from the other castes because there's a chance they'll turn out taller is a good one. I think we tend to imagine them only picking the smartest kids but I see little evidence of that in their society. In some eras we know that zzabur have taken women, presumably selecting for actual magical talent there. 

Thanks also for bringing up the kshatriya -- as you are aware, some theories have posited that the vedic castes evolved separately and came together in a pattern of conquests, alliances and other amalgamations, so at various points in history the proto-kshatriya tribes in particular might formally outrank the proto-brahmin, for example. In this model, while each caste now plays a stereotyped professional role (priest, warrior, bourgeois, peasant), each had or could evolve an independent cultural apparatus that substitutes or compensates for the other castes if cooperation breaks down. I'm most familiar with the concept in modern arguments that the brahmin are effete parasites and the kshatriya with their muscular, chivalric ethos really know what's going on. I'd forgotten this earlier so maybe that makes the deep analogy to archaic Brithos a little more direct. 

Cutting a lot to avoid turning this into a drastic resolution (too late) but it's probably pretty easy to evaluate a population's physical drift from the classic Brithini type by prevalence of various skin tones as well as SIZ. I'd probably start in Sog. We know the percentage dice for that, at least. And as for your henotheists, definitely my idealists in the far north. One thing we can always agree on is that Tanisor is a serious pain.

Edited July 11, 2017 by scott-martin
sog as demographic control population

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

“The talars are the rulers, administrators, governors, generals, and merchant-princes. They are trained in horsemanship, combat, wrestling, music, and poetry ...”

I have no problem at all with the first sentence in that quote, but the second sentence is wrong about the combat training as far as Malkioni in general are concerned. Talars trained in combat goes against the principles of Malkionism.

No.  It goes against Brithini Tradition.  The Rokari are following the Abiding Book, a more authentic tradition.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Anyway, traditionally the talar caste has no business taking up weapons. In the old Hrestoli school, they were encouraged to become men-of-all, though, combining the horse riding privilege of the Talar caste with the combat skills of the Horal caste, the magic of the Zzabur caste and the horsekeeping skills of the Dronar caste.

Careful now.  You are basing this on the How the West was One freeform which describes the Castle Coasters along those lines.  We don't know how the Seshnegi practised caste before the Abiding Book nor do we know the Hrestoli attitudes towards it.  On the subject of Arkat becoming a man-of-all, the Guide p129 has "Within a year he mastered all the crafts, demonstrated his mastery of soldierly sciences, and studied the sorcerous arts as he campaigned" whereas the original was "Within a year he mastered all the difficult trade of the farmer [...]"

 

 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

 They elevated the Horali to a warrior nobility, and even allowed then to join their cavalry, although much less protected, or to wear the heavy protection of the traditional Horal caste as heavy foot soldiers, in turn supported by peasant auxiliary with light or improvised weaponry and armor at best.

I wouldn't call the Rokari Horals a warrior nobility.  It's not even clear on whether most of them ride (the Horse and Mammoth warriors probably do, the others look more like heavy or light foot).  They are professional warriors, not lesser aristocracy that was depicted in Genertela: Crucible to the Hero Wars

 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Rokari school of Malkionism has destroyed most hereditary wizard orders within their reach. I wonder what the hereditary wizard caste families did when Bailifes supported Mardron in abolishing the Zzabur caste as a self-perpetuating caste.

Where's the evidence for hereditary wizard orders?  I'm far from convinced by your assertions about the caste practices of God Forgot, the Valkarists and other places in that they simply haven't been described with anything like the required detail.

 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Dronar caste in Rokari society appears to be split into enfranchised urban citizens amassing wealth through respected trades who take an active role in decision making, and impoverished serf peasants, bereft of any influence or voice towards the other castes.

There is no mention of Serfdom in the Guide.  Serfs were described in prior versions of Seshnela but those are rather outdated.

 

[Joerg]

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

No.  It goes against Brithini Tradition.  The Rokari are following the Abiding Book, a more authentic tradition.

Froalar was a Brithini, and so was Hrestol, when they emigrated to what became Frowal. It isn't quite irrelevant how they had their state organized.

The Abiding Book "wrote itself" by a hand of magic after there had been deliiberations and debate among the wizards and monastic orders of Jrustela, in a time when the homeland their ancestors two or three generations ago had left in imitation of Froalar was ruled by vile Tanisorans, under the influence of the Stygian Autarchy.

Would I be very wrong if I said that the previous activity and the conclaves summoned that Hand of the Invisible God? Through their sorcery?

 

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Careful now.  You are basing this on the How the West was One freeform which describes the Castle Coasters along those lines.

Actually, I don't. I am basing this on the same sources Nick and David used when designing that Malkioni sect. The outcome is more or less the same, though.

 

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

We don't know how the Seshnegi practised caste before the Abiding Book nor do we know the Hrestoli attitudes towards it.  

There are no published sources how the Seshnegi practised caste before the Abiding Book except for the short legend below the depiction of King Ylream, which does mention quite a few characters and their ranks from early writings on the West. Parts of my source have been published since, others (the novella part) still haven't, and probably won't see widespread publication, either.

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

On the subject of Arkat becoming a man-of-all, the Guide p129 has "Within a year he mastered all the crafts, demonstrated his mastery of soldierly sciences, and studied the sorcerous arts as he campaigned" whereas the original was "Within a year he mastered all the difficult trade of the farmer [...]"

Arkat was not your typical student, but a prodigy - he mastered the Horali trade in years rather than centuries. "All the crafts" is the equivalent for "trade of the farmer". As a Horali with years of training and campaigning under his belt, I don't expect him to have to do little more than demonstrate his ability there. I am more concerned about his acquisition of the noble arts (like e.g. horsemanship).

But still, the early companions of Hrestol spent a few years before qualifying as men-of-all, too. I don't have information when exactly Hrestol himself started on his concept.

Horali may not be any kind of ruling nobility, but they are one of the three minority castes. Samurai, yeomen, hirdmen, Some of the chosen few privileged for their contribution in their field, just like wizards or judges.

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It's not even clear on whether most of them ride (the Horse and Mammoth warriors probably do, the others look more like heavy or light foot).  They are professional warriors, not lesser aristocracy that was depicted in Genertela: Crucible to the Hero Wars

The Horali soldiers saw little if any mention in the Hedenveld (sp?) text. That Sir Hedenveld was a petty talar-class Rokari noble rather than a Man-at-Arms.

The text is pretty clear about the Horali caste roles - some are medium cavalry, the others are heavy infantry and/or missile troops. There don't appear to be mounted missile troops in Tanisor, but I expect those in Ralios - javelins at least, possibly bows.

The text tells us nothing about ownership of a warrior's equipment, housing, or who exactly provides their food. Property laws in general aren't clear.

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Where's the evidence for hereditary wizard orders?  I'm far from convinced by your assertions about the caste practices of God Forgot, the Valkarists

I learned about the Valkarist hereditary caste practices in this section of the Guide. For God Forgot we have meagre information about their apparently ageless zzabur caste.

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

and other places in that they simply haven't been described with anything like the required detail.

The Esvulari are detailed later, as three endogamous castes without a Horali caste - all Aeolians are warriors when needed, pretty much like the theists around them.

 

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There is no mention of Serfdom in the Guide.  Serfs were described in prior versions of Seshnela but those are rather outdated.

Serfs are mentioned only rarely elsewhere in the Guide, too - describing Vendref, indentured Carmanian Lodrili, and a comparison of elevated Fonritian slaves with serfs in "barbarian lands".

There still is a difference between affluent and influential burghers and drudging field workers.

We don't know who owns and assigns this access to arable land, housing, animal husbandry, tools, or even clothes.

Concepts of property wiil differ from our modern experiences. Getting this across to players and narrators might be the biggest "Bronze Age" hurdle.

[metcalph]

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Actually, I don't. I am basing [my statements about the Castle Coast - PHM] on the same sources Nick and David used when designing that Malkioni sect. The outcome is more or less the same, though.

But still uncanonical.  The Guide p405 says the Castle-Coasters are a fractured aristocracy of sorceror warriors still aping Jrusteli ways (although not God-Learnerism).  It does not call them Men-of-All.  Therefore assertions that the Castle-Coasters progress through the castes should be avoided until further information comes to light.

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There are no published sources how the Seshnegi practised caste before the Abiding Book except for the short legend below the depiction of King Ylream, which does mention quite a few characters and their ranks from early writings on the West. Parts of my source have been published since, others (the novella part) still haven't, and probably won't see widespread publication, either.

Therefore you should not be making statements that the early Seshnegi practiced such and such.  Nobody knows until Jeff or whomever writes it up.  The details have changed dramatically since the earliest Seshnegi stories were written down and they have changed dramatically since the web article the Kings of Seshnela was put up (and I think they have changed since Revealed Mythologies).  Hence it is unwise you or I can declare that this is what the Seshnegi (or anybody else) did without admitting the probability that they may have done things much differently.

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Arkat was not your typical student, but a prodigy - he mastered the Horali trade in years rather than centuries. "All the crafts" is the equivalent for "trade of the farmer".

So why make the change then if it means the same thing?

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The text is pretty clear about the Horali caste roles - some are medium cavalry, the others are heavy infantry and/or missile troops.

What text are you referring to?  Please get into the habit of providing sources with the page numbers.  

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I learned about the Valkarist hereditary caste practices in this section of the Guide. For God Forgot we have meagre information about their apparently ageless zzabur caste.

The section on the Valkarists says (Guide p53)

Quote

This School in the
East Isles has three castes: the Magic Men
who rule, supported by Spearmen and Fishers.
Mobility between the castes is permitted at the
discretion of the Magic Men.

Mobility between the castes refers to changing caste once one has been assigned (like say a Fisher to a Spearman).  It does not say anything about how the castes are assigned or even if the castes are hereditary!  We don't know for example if the Magic Men can marry or if they select the most promising children for each caste regardless of their parents.

Where is your reference for the Zzaburi of God Forgot being hereditary?

 

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Serfs are mentioned only rarely elsewhere in the Guide, too - describing Vendref, indentured Carmanian Lodrili, and a comparison of elevated Fonritian slaves with serfs in "barbarian lands".

In which case, you still shouldn't be saying that the peasants of Seshnela are serfs (the terms are not synonyms).  The material has changed dramatically since the Genertela boxed set which was largely a medieval society used as filler to plug the gaps and had some absurdities.

 

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

What text are you referring to?  Please get into the habit of providing sources with the page numbers.

This will make it easier for everyone to understand and follow discussions. 

[lokamayadon]

Globally I liked this part. It is a clean,  consistent and quite new way of describing western culture

I particularly enjoy the western warrior societies

[Akhôrahil]

I really wish that at some point, someone would have bitten the bullet and re-transcribed Zzabur's name in a way that doesn't scream "SILLY FANTASY NAME!!" at you. It always feels completely out of place when I read it. What's the "zz" even supposed to represent? A particularly long "z" sound?

Edited July 12, 2017 by Akhôrahil

[JanPospisil]

For those wondering about western cavalry, the one I painted was somewhat based on Kushan or Bactrian cataphracts. The Western art had quite a bit of northern India in it, so we went for those Indian/Greek/Eastern overlaps.

The art direction only said the warrior was from an animal worshipping society, and I was to pick one.

Quote

His arms and armor should sport an animal motif, like deer, horse, bear, boar, lion, or wolf - but pick one and stay with it (Western soldiers belong to hereditary societies with animal totems).

For whatever reason (can't remember really, maybe it just seemed funny) I chose peacock. I think I liked the idea of the feathered helmet, but it also seemed like a cool and unusual animal for such a cult.

[Steve]

p.48 - The story in the sidebar of the Battle of Tanian's Victory is, like so many things here, tantalising, and really fires the imagination. Hope to learn more on this at some point.

Up till now I've known nothing of the Brithini and other things described here, so it's very interesting to start to hear about them.

Loskalm sounds particularly interesting.

 

[Byll]

I knew (know) next to noting about Westerners, so please bear with my ignorance. Overall I felt that their defining craracteristic of humanism still gave them an early-modern/late-medieval flavour despite rumours of them having been turned more Hellenistic. Things like the "Zzaburi of the Rokari  school must remain celibate and seek to free themselves of all worldly concerns" P49 "the aristocracy is inordinately fond of martial games" P52 "Each community performs regular ceremonies where they provide magical energy to the Zzaburi wizard priests", "Temples to the Invisible God ...consist of an inner sanctum... a congregation hall and sometimes antechamber or porches ...the inner sanctum is crowned by a tower built to be the tallest structure in the city" P53 all sound very like Europe at the start of the Renaissance, but I suppose are also true of many other historical societies.

I am interested in their attachment to colours, has this always been a theme? "Malkioni society is divided into castes (or 'colors') each with its own taboos, secrets clothing..." P48, "The noble caste is called Talars and is the 'Yellow Caste' P48, Wizards are called Zzaburi and constitute the 'Blue Caste'." P49, "Soldiers are called Horali and constitute the 'Red Caste'." P49, "The vast majority of Western society are workers called Dronars. They form the 'Brown Caste'." P49. "In Seshnela each caste and sub caste has its own distinctive clothing and attire which are strictly regulated by the Rokari wizards" P51 (those guys who must seek to free themselves of all worldly concerns are going to be checking your hem length, perhaps it's the celibacy thing) "Yellow is the preferred [Talar] color" P51, "The preferred [Zzaburi] textile is wool or silk dyed either a blue so dark it is almost black or dyed white to emphasise their purity" P51, "The precise [Horali] attire depends upon the War Society, although the color red is preferred." P51 "The [Dronar] textile colors and design depend upon the sub caste: farmers wear homespun linen, usually coarse and undyed grey and brown. Wealthier townsfolk ...prefer finer textiles and dye their cloth in those colors allowed for their sub caste (yellow blue and red being strictly forbidden." P51 

How well defined are Malkioni color hues? When does brown become red? When does red become orange, or orange become yellow? is blue distinct from cyan? Are foriegners allowed to wear any Caste Color?

Could there be any connection between the Malkioni caste colours and the skin colours of Brithini and Vadeli? 

Are the immortal blue Brithini in any way connected to the Spiral Path to immortality said to have been taught by 'the Great Princess' in the Entekosiad Ent:P32 "they changed color as they grew older first being white as children, red as adults and blue as elders... But they were hated for this by everyone else [who] poured a burning liquid on the Spiral Path... everyone was forced to swear away their belief and ancestry..." 

I like the idea of the Seshnelan War Societies with animal totems. Is this a regional thing or do Horali of other Western peoples have animal War Societies?

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Byll
Spellcheck woes red as ->reads

[metcalph]

 

13 minutes ago, Byll said:

I am interested in their attachment to colours, has this always been a theme? "Malkioni society is divided into castes (or 'colors') each with its own taboos, secrets clothing..." P48, "The noble caste is called Talars and is the 'Yellow Caste' P48, Wizards are called Zzaburi and constitute the 'Blue Caste'." P49, "Soldiers are called Horali and constitute the 'Red Caste'." P49, "The vast majority of Western society are workers called Dronars. They form the 'Brown Caste'." P49. "In Seshnela each caste and sub caste has its own distinctive clothing and attire which are strictly regulated by the Rokari wizards" P51

It's new.  It had previously been a thing about the Vadeli (who were originally described as the only westerners with coloured skins - Genertela: Boxed set Book 3).

13 minutes ago, Byll said:

Could there be any connection between the Malkioni caste colours and the skin colours of Brithini and Vadeli? 

In Seshnela, the people have the skins colours relevant to their caste (see piccie on the Guide p405).  It may not necessary be inherited but a byproduct of blessing spells (with an ample opportunity for things to go wrong).  

Quote

Are the immortal blue Brithini in any way connected to the Spiral Path to immortality said to have been taught by 'the Great Princess' in the Entekosiad Ent:P32 "they changed color as they grew older first being white as children, red as adults and blue as elders... But they were hated for this by everyone else [who] poured a burning liquid on the Spiral Path... everyone was forced to swear away their belief and ancestry..." 

No.  The Spiral Path is related to the Great Lunar Cycle (White Moon to Red Moon to Blue Moon).  The Brithini wizards were Blue long before the Spiral Path was taught.  The Blue Colour probably is related to the Sea (the Sky was originally golden so it's probably not from there either) although there's no known explanation for it.

Quote

I like the idea of the Seshnelan War Societies with animal totems. Is this a regional thing or do Horali of other Western peoples have animal War Societies?

It's probably a regional thing.  There aren't that many entrenched warrior castes elsewhere.  The Loskalmi and Jonatelans don't seem to have any animal war societies.  The Carmanians do have a Bull Order but many of their military orders don't seem to be beast-related.  I don't think the Safelstrans practice Malkioni caste - the social division is between the city dwellers and the peasants.  The Umathelans despise violence and prefer to leave that to mercenaries.

 

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

I knew (know) next to noting about Westerners, so please bear with my ignorance.

Actually, that is a great place to come from with the Guide as your starting point, and to test our assumptions against, so please keep asking.

Defining the western culture of Glorantha has been a guessing game for the vast majority of us roleplayers basically since RQ3 Gods of Glorantha presented the Invisible God and RQ3 Genertela Box described the western lands of Genertela and their role in the formation of the God Learners.

 

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

Overall I felt that their defining craracteristic of humanism still gave them an early-modern/late-medieval flavour despite rumours of them having been turned more Hellenistic.

 

That's one side of them, but only if early modern/late medieval folk had to debate not only about their own monotheistic truths but also about dealing with the polytheist reality outside of their borders or in their conquered lands.

IMO their descent from the Brithini cannot be stressed enough.

The caste system is the other, defining characteristic of the Westerners. To be Malkioni means to adhere to some caste system, and be it in transcendence or transgression of it. True, there are other Gloranthan societies with a de-facto caste system and with nominal ones, but caste is one of their major inheritances from their forefathers, the Brithini. Unlike the medieval humanists, they have the advantage and disadvantage that some of those forefathers are still around, unaging (or aging very very slowly).

 

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

all sound very like Europe at the start of the Renaissance, but I suppose are also true of many other historical societies.

True. And I think that it is fair to say that these themes would have influenced Greg's writing back when most of the original Malkioni stories were written. Snodal, Hrestol, Arkat, Jonat are those early heroes upon whom these stories are focussed. They all deal with very mythical circumstances and opposition, though.

 

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

I am interested in their attachment to colours, has this always been a theme?

Both no - not for the mortal Malkioni of the modern era, or even the Second Age - and yes, it had always been a theme for the immortal Logicians (Vadeli and Brithini).

Skin coloration has been a case of miscommunication between Greg Stafford and the Glorantha Tribe for quite a while. Greg's writings haven't been that consistent, either, at least those leaked to a wider public. As a result, some westerners are described as conforming to the "fair of skin and hair" prototype (like e.g. the Loskalmi, GtG p.51, the Loskalmi female man-of-all) while others retain the rainbow hues of the castes that are also found among the Brithini and Vadeli.

 

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

"Malkioni society is divided into castes (or 'colors') each with its own taboos, secrets clothing..." P48, 

As I said above, this caste system has always been a major tenet of the Westerners. And overcoming its limitations has been the first major Malkioni activity in History, through the revelation and deeds of Prince Hrestol.

The color code for caste-appropriate clothing hasn't been made that explicit before. The residual hues of the castes in Tanisor/Seshnela were a bit of a surprise to me, too, especially given their history of assimilating a non-Malkioni people ruled by a lion-worshipping dynasty of Hykimi rulers.

But then, the fact of an almost entire tribe of the original Malkioni (the Kachisti/Kachasti) being dispersed among the peoples of western Genertela (well into western Peloria, central Ralios and probably parts of Maniria) during the Gods War hasn't been that well known before, either.

 

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

"The noble caste is called Talars and is the 'Yellow Caste' P48, Wizards are called Zzaburi and constitute the 'Blue Caste'." P49, "Soldiers are called Horali and constitute the 'Red Caste'." P49, "The vast majority of Western society are workers called Dronars. They form the 'Brown Caste'." P49.

These colors are the ancient and traditional Brithini descriptors for the castes. The use of the colors to designate non-Vadeli castes is new. For the Vadeli it has always been used.

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

"In Seshnela each caste and sub caste has its own distinctive clothing and attire which are strictly regulated by the Rokari wizards" P51 (those guys who must seek to free themselves of all worldly concerns are going to be checking your hem length, perhaps it's the celibacy thing) "Yellow is the preferred [Talar] color" P51, "The preferred [Zzaburi] textile is wool or silk dyed either a blue so dark it is almost black or dyed white to emphasise their purity" P51, "The precise [Horali] attire depends upon the War Society, although the color red is preferred." P51 "The [Dronar] textile colors and design depend upon the sub caste: farmers wear homespun linen, usually coarse and undyed grey and brown. Wealthier townsfolk ...prefer finer textiles and dye their cloth in those colors allowed for their sub caste (yellow blue and red being strictly forbidden." P51 

How well defined are Malkioni color hues? When does brown become red? When does red become orange, or orange become yellow? is blue distinct from cyan?

I guess that there are regulations for dyes and pigments, based on availability. I guess that all shades of indigo are reserved for Zzaburi use. The Talars wouldn't have to suffer the fishy stench of purple made from snails.

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

Are foreigners allowed to wear any Caste Color?

Excellent question. I suppose it depends on their rank equivalent. Displays of exotic otherness may be excused, and possibly ridiculed, like the Lunar penchant to wear warriors' colors for their magicians. Zzaburi may very well take exception to Orlanthi in woad-dyed clothing (or skin), and being taller than them.

 

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

Could there be any connection between the Malkioni caste colours and the skin colours of Brithini and Vadeli? 

Definitely - that's the origin.

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

Are the immortal blue Brithini in any way connected to the Spiral Path to immortality said to have been taught by 'the Great Princess' in the Entekosiad Ent:P32 "they changed color as they grew older first being white as children, red as adults and blue as elders... But they were hated for this by everyone else [who] poured a burning liquid on the Spiral Path... everyone was forced to swear away their belief and ancestry..." 

I think that is part of the Lunar mystery, and the spiral in Lunar mystery is a topic well suited for a spin-off discussion.

 

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

I like the idea of the Seshnelan War Societies with animal totems. Is this a regional thing or do Horali of other Western peoples have animal War Societies?

It dates back to their earliest foes, who then got assimilated as the Malkioni expanded. The Malkioni always regarded their neighboring non-Malkioni humans as descended from beasts, and as it happens, the Hykimi of the region were. The Fronelan Malkioni fought the bull people at the Dawn and later bear people, the Seshnelans the lion people, then horse, wolf and other people. All of their initial foes had deviated from the pure Hsunchen ways but retained quite a lot of their animal or animal companion magic.

By overcoming and assimilating these foes, they adopted their ways of warfare, and potentially some non-wizard magics for combat that nobody speaks about.

[M Helsdon]

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I guess that there are regulations for dyes and pigments, based on availability. I guess that all shades of indigo are reserved for Zzaburi use.

The inhabitants of Halkomelem, severely Tapped by their overlords in the past, dress in extremely garish blue clothes, despite being dronari.

[Jeff]

For what it is worth, my strongest reference point for West society is ancient India, with the rigid caste-heirarchy of Vedic Brahmanism challenged by heterodox sects such as Buddhism and Jainism. The word for caste in Sanskrit ("varna") means "color", which we ran with for the Malkioni. Add a variety of Greek philosophers (particularly Plotinus) and you are much of the way there.

Foreigners are problematic in every society. They are outside the caste structure, causing constant offense, and subject to whatever protections the local talars grants. In a place like Noloswal, they have extensive protection and are even allowed their barbaric religious practice within designated polluted areas. In a place like   Leplain, I suspect foreigners need to be much more circumspect (or under the direct protection of the king).

[Byll]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

In Seshnela, the people have the skins colours relevant to their caste (see piccie on the Guide p405).  It may not necessary be inherited but a byproduct of blessing spells (with an ample opportunity for things to go wrong).  

No doubt I'd admired that picture when I got my shiny reprint copy of the guide, but I hadn't realised from the text in PP 48-53 that there was any skin color variation between Western Genertelan Malkioni castes (though the art direction does say that the Seshnelan Zzaburi is dark skinned now that I look again). My first reading was just that the Westerners associated the roles and responsibilities of ruler, wizard, soldier and worker with the colours yellow blue red and brown, and that in Seshnela (unusually amongst the rest) this was extended to the colour of clothing that people were allowed to wear.

I wonder if the War Societies also have functional specialisms as well as being basic-training competent troops. For example that the Horse society makes the best cavalry, that the Wolf and Lion societies are the best drilled infantry, the Deer make the best field-scouts  the Mammoths are the best in defence or the Snakes are good at penetrating enemy positions.

[jajagappa]

34 minutes ago, Byll said:

I wonder if the War Societies also have functional specialisms as well as being basic-training competent troops.

I assume so.  In my Nochet work, among the folk from Nolos who settled outside the city in Meldektown before 1621, I included two of these societies, both infantry:

House of the Stag.  The warrior society of the Stag meets here to learn and practice its skills.  They are known for their speed and maneuverability and serve the Caprati family.  Horali of the Stag regiment never sport beards or mustaches and keep their hair cropped.

House of the Boar.  The warrior society of the Boar is housed here.  Known for their tenacious and ferocious attacks, as well as their thick and bristly mustaches, they are sworn to the du Tumerine family.

[Steve]

Wait. So the castes are tied directly to the skin colours? I didn't get that from the text either. On p.48, third column, it says that the castes have their own "marriage laws, and other regulations of behavior and attire". It doesn't have "skin colour" in that list, it's only attire that seems to have a colour.

I realise that it does mention on p.48 (bottom of second column) that there are different skin hues, but it doesn't specifically mention yellow there, even though yellow is one of the caste colours.

I hadn't skipped ahead, but now that it's been mentioned and I look at p.406, the wizard is described as having brown-black skin (not blue), and the noble has light brown skin (not yellow), with the workers being described as having "light greenish to muddy brown" skin.

So I can't see anything that says that skin colours are tied to the caste colours. Have I missed something?

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Steve

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Steve said:

Wait. So the castes are tied directly to the skin colours? I didn't get that from the text either. On p.48, third column, it says that the castes "marriage laws, and other regulations of behavior and attire". It doesn't have "skin colour" in that list, it's only attire that seems to have a colour.

I realise that it does mention on p.48 (bottom of second column) that there are different skin hues, but it doesn't specifically mention yellow there, even though yellow is one of the caste colours.

I hadn't skipped ahead, but now that it's been mentioned and I look at p.406, the wizard is described as having brown-black skin (not blue), and the noble has light brown skin (not yellow), with the workers being described as having "light greenish to muddy brown" skin.

So I can't see anything that says that skin colours are tied to the caste colours. Have I missed something?

 

The original Brithini castes each had skin colors associated with that caste. The talars had light golden skin, the zzaburi light blue, etc. Only the Vadeli were able to preserve that pronounced color differentiation through the Great Darkness - even the Brithini now rely more on clothing to mark the castes than skin color. Make what you will of that.

[Oracle]

So far the longest cultural description. And although the structure is similar to the original Western description in the Player's Book from the RuneQuest III box Genertela, Crucible of the Hero Wars, the contents is completely overhauled. No medieval references, no churches. Castes instead of social classes. It's now much more original with history heavily based on a sorcerous heritage.

Interesting are the connections to Pamaltela: there are references to Vadeli as well as to Agimori/Dorradi people. So obviously there was contact to that areas in ancient times (before the Closing).

The description of Malkioni Wizardy is quite similar to the Sorcery description in HeroQuest:Glorantha (which is no coincidence probably )

The Writings of Zzabur - something a aspiring PC sorcerer would look for?

Several short descriptions of Wizardry Schools. Enough to pique your interest, too little to satisfy you ...

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Steve said:

Wait. So the castes are tied directly to the skin colours? I didn't get that from the text either. On p.48, third column, it says that the castes have their own "marriage laws, and other regulations of behavior and attire". It doesn't have "skin colour" in that list, it's only attire that seems to have a colour.

The castes have been swelled by non-Malkioni, so that the original skin colors have been lost among the Malkioni.

GtG p.53 (first paragraph)

Quote

Converts to Rokarism are assigned to the most appropriate caste by the local ruler whose decision is final.

There are e.g. the black-skinned Pithdarans who are now members of the various Malkioni castes, and they can intermarry with other Malkioni from those castes without restriction. Before them, the people of the Pendali city-states were adopted into the kingdom of Seshnela, and later the Tanisorans who were descendants of the Enerali horse folk. All of these were of different skin coloration, even if they might have had some Kachisti in their ancestry.

 

3 hours ago, Steve said:

I hadn't skipped ahead, but now that it's been mentioned and I look at p.406, the wizard is described as having brown-black skin (not blue), and the noble has light brown skin (not yellow), with the workers being described as having "light greenish to muddy brown" skin.

So I can't see anything that says that skin colours are tied to the caste colours. Have I missed something?

Yes - the illustration on p.406 has brownish, greenish and grayish skinned workers, a somewhat ruddy warrior (whose description probably makes him a foot taller than he should be), and a dark golden skinned noble. The wizard is of Agimori race, of pure ancestry, so he logically cannot have the bluish skin of Brithos-descended Zzaburi. Given the celibacy of Rokari wizards, any blue skin among them would be a rare coincidence or the result of some indescretion.

 

Seshnegi sexuality appears to be fairly licentious within their own castes, but is strictly avoiding encounters across caste boundaries. Which means that a horny zzaburi would probably summon a minor goddess, nymph or similar if he wanted to fornicate without caste violation.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, Byll said:

 (though the art direction does say that the Seshnelan Zzaburi is dark skinned now that I look again).

The dark-skinned Zzaburi is from Pithdaros whose ancestors originally came from Pamaltela.  

 

5 hours ago, Byll said:

I wonder if the War Societies also have functional specialisms as well as being basic-training competent troops. For example that the Horse society makes the best cavalry, that the Wolf and Lion societies are the best drilled infantry, the Deer make the best field-scouts  the Mammoths are the best in defence or the Snakes are good at penetrating enemy positions.

It wouldn't be as cool if they didn't, so they must do.

[metcalph]

42 minutes ago, Oracle said:

Interesting are the connections to Pamaltela: there are references to Vadeli as well as to Agimori/Dorradi people. So obviously there was contact to that areas in ancient times (before the Closing).

There's been contact with Pamaltela before the Dawn (through the Vadeli).  After their kingdom was destroyed by the Lascerdans (I think!), the next wave of contact came from Slontos then the Jrusteli/Seshnegi/God Learners.  Then came the Closing.

The Agimori have made a reverse migration when they sent an army to Seshnela to fight Gbaji (long after Arkat had killed him).  After being lied to, they then became the Pithdarans.

[davecake]

The war societies have specialties I would assume, but any given regiment seems to be taken only from a single society, so the societies must be able to muster an attempt at filling all military specialties at needs. The Snakes might make the best spies, but even the Mammoths can spy at need, etc. Whatever magic the societies have, it no doubt is best at their traditional specialties, but thats certainly not all they can muster. 

 

[davecake]

On 16/07/2017 at 6:03 AM, metcalph said:

There's been contact with Pamaltela before the Dawn (through the Vadeli).  After their kingdom was destroyed by the Lascerdans (I think!), the next wave of contact came from Slontos then the Jrusteli/Seshnegi/God Learners.  Then came the Closing.

The Agimori have made a reverse migration when they sent an army to Seshnela to fight Gbaji (long after Arkat had killed him).  After being lied to, they then became the Pithdarans.

Its very clear from the Mythic Maps etc that there has been extensive contact with the Vadeli in Pamaltela before the Dawn, and that this mostly was horrible for Pamaltela. There doesn't seem to have been much if any contact with other Western cultures pre-Dawn, but it makes sense that the coast would have contact with the Waertagi. I definitely feel that the Slarges, rather than Lascerdans, are responsible for the downfall of the Vadeli empire, but we know far too little about either slarges or lascerdans. The big wave of contact with the Malkioni seems to have been almost entirely historical, I'm not sure if there was ever contact between the Brithini and Pamaltela. 

And yes, the Pithdarans are an entirely separate group to the Danmalastan peoples, and their racial background is unrelated. Its interesting to me that they are specifically Doraddi, are a different group culturally and ethnically from other groups that have migrated from Pamaltela and Genertela, and might retain some remnants of Doraddi culture, such as a different approach to lineage.