Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 3 - Western

[davecake]

Joerg says "Personally, I don't think that there are any Pamalt-worshippers who aren't descendants of Dorad or from the same generation or earlier as Dorad."

I personally think there are Pamalt-worshippers who aren't descendants of Dorad, but not many. 

Obviously its no longer canon, but in the old Pamalt writeup being a 'descendant of Dorad' meant you could automatically join, but there were procedures for foreigners and outsiders to join if they wish. I suspect this is still the case. Not just because I see no reason to change it, but because there are myths of Pamalt allowing foreigners to become part of the tribe (eg Keraun). 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Its very clear from the Mythic Maps etc that there has been extensive contact with the Vadeli in Pamaltela before the Dawn, and that this mostly was horrible for Pamaltela. There doesn't seem to have been much if any contact with other Western cultures pre-Dawn, but it makes sense that the coast would have contact with the Waertagi.

Although portrayed as such, the western cultures were hardly a monolithic bloc.  Various members of each tribe would have settled among other nations to practice their arts.  In that way the various countries had traders and interpreters (from the Kachasti), Builders from the Kadeniti, Scribes from the Kadeniti etc.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I definitely feel that the Slarges, rather than Lascerdans, are responsible for the downfall of the Vadeli empire, but we know far too little about either slarges or lascerdans.

The reason why I said Lascerdans rather than Slarges although the Slarges are mentioned as overrunning the last remnants of Oabil/Chir in the Lesser Darkness, the only trace of such a migration is the Lascerdans in the Riogache and Palau Rivers.

[davecake]

Oabil and Chir are different parts of the Vadeli Empire, and only Oabil is described as being over run by Slarges - and Oabil is the South of  the mountains part (eg see mythic map pg 691), roughly corresponding to the modern Slarge homeland of Wongarassi. 

I do think we lack useful info here. I'm not 100% sure that the pelmre and the slarges are simply the same thing - quite likely there is an unknown myth by which the pelmre acquired their odd alternating generations life cycle, and became modern slarges. Of course, its also possible that the known slarge/pelmre creation myth is just wildly inaccurate Doraddi supposition. Whether Lascerdans fit into this I have no idea - we know so little about them. 

Getting WAY off topic here though. 

 

[davecake]

19 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Although portrayed as such, the western cultures were hardly a monolithic bloc.  Various members of each tribe would have settled among other nations to practice their arts.  In that way the various countries had traders and interpreters (from the Kachasti), Builders from the Kadeniti, Scribes from the Kadeniti etc.

While I think this is true for Danmalastan/Zerendel, I am not sure it is true for the Vadeli Empire, which really only became established after the Vadeli had become hostile to the others. Though there would be slaves/captives, adventurous exiles, etc, I don't think it would be widespread. 

[metcalph]

48 minutes ago, davecake said:

Oabil and Chir are different parts of the Vadeli Empire, and only Oabil is described as being over run by Slarges - and Oabil is the South of  the mountains part (eg see mythic map pg 691), roughly corresponding to the modern Slarge homeland of Wongarassi. 

Sidebar p561 has Fonrit being called Oabil (Vadeli) and Mondator (Artmali - which according to the mythic maps is *also* south of the mountains Guide p668).  Moreover Chir is the Vadeli name for the Vadeli Empire while Oabil is the name its enemies gave it (according to Revealed Mythologies p28 and p34).  I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong just that it could be argued any way.

FWIW the Sorcerors' City ruins (Guide p615) which from the description is implied to be Vadeli is somewhat east of Wongarassi in the Tokala hills.  Elsewhere (Tokala entry) it is mentioned as having carved blue statues of "a race no one knows" indicating Blue Vadeli

48 minutes ago, davecake said:

I do think we lack useful info here. I'm not 100% sure that the pelmre and the slarges are simply the same thing - quite likely there is an unknown myth by which the pelmre acquired their odd alternating generations life cycle, and became modern slarges. Of course, its also possible that the known slarge/pelmre creation myth is just wildly inaccurate Doraddi supposition.

My problem with that myth is that it paralleled too closely Dara Happan creation of humans.  I think a more authentic Doraddi myth would have Pamalt trying to copy the elves (and end up with Hoolar), then trying to copy the Slarges and ends up with Pelmre.  He then tries to make a version of the Keets and ends up with Jelmre.  Finally he beats Bolongo up for giving bad advice and makes the first Agi.

[davecake]

I think there may well be multiple Doraddi myths of origin, especially of the other races.

I think this is probably true of many other Doraddi myths - there are local variants, and no particular cultural drive to make them consistent. The idea of imperfect copies is good too. There are different explanations of the sky, different lists of the gods, and so on. 

I agree the geographical terminology is a mess. FWIW, though, I think the Vadeli Empire variously included what is now modern Wongarassi, Umathela and Fonrit at times, but when the Guide talks about it finally being overrun by the slarges, it mens mostly the part that is now Wongarassi (and historically was the core of their empire). Fonrit was probably ruled by Vadeli at one point, but they lost control of it before they lost Wongarassi.