Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 4 - Dragons

[Yelm's Light]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Was Delecti a renegade Waertagi?

It's possible he defected when the God Learners defeated the Waertagi, I guess, but everything 'canon' I've ever seen indicated he was a God Learner.  Granted, he's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, and there was contact between the God Learners and the Waertagi.  And he does control an undead orca...

[Oracle]

This chapter seems to be an extension of the Dragonewt chapter, as Dragons are not one of the Elder Races – they some completely different. Added because you can not talk about Dragonnewts without at least a minor understanding of Dragons.

Again this is a text from the RuneQuest III Elder Secrets of Glorantha box. This time it’s a version of Secrets of Dragonkind text from the Secrets Book.

It seems there are more True Dragons in Dragon Pass than I was aware of. The Black, Green and Red Dragon I knew as well as the one awakened with the Dragonrising, but the Dragon of Jarn was new to me. Beside the description of Garstal Shavetop is it mentioned in any other source?

True Dragons in Kralorela. As already mentioned this is another reason to learn more about this area, which so far I did ignore way too much.

According to the description in HeroQuest Glorantha Wyrms are

Quote

… a misguided attempt by the Second Council to create new dragons after the ancestral dragons either went away or went to sleep. ...

This reads a bit different here. at least from the description in this chapter I got the impression, that Wyrms may have existed already before the Empire of the Wyrms Friend. According to what living Wyrms say, they are just using a different path than other dragonkind. Is that true? Can we believe, what Wyrms are telling us. (Or is the whole topic open to interpretation? )

Also interesting the connection between Dragons/Dragonewts and Dinosaurs … although I tend to follow Garstal Shavetop’s comment in the sidebar ...

[jajagappa]

59 minutes ago, Oracle said:

the Dragon of Jarn was new to me. Beside the description of Garstal Shavetop is it mentioned in any other source?

That text/description was out of the Elder Secrets book as I recall.

[Oracle]

17 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That text/description was out of the Elder Secrets book as I recall.

Yes, that's true, but I've never read the Elder Secrets books as extensively as I currently do with the Guide. And the Black, Green and Red Dragons are also mentioned in other sources (e.g. HeroQuest Glorantha), but I'm not aware of any other source (that I know of ) mentioning the Dragon of Jarn ...

[Joerg]

11 minutes ago, Oracle said:

Yes, that's true, but I've never read the Elder Secrets books as extensively as I currently do with the Guide. And the Black, Green and Red Dragons are also mentioned in other sources (e.g. HeroQuest Glorantha), but I'm not aware of any other source (that I know of ) mentioning the Dragon of Jarn ...

There isn't any other source corroborating this, other than the  Brown Dragon Lair in the Dragon Pass boardgame.

Which sort of asks the question whether the Dragonrise dragon returns to its resting place after ascending to the heavens in that ritual, and how that would have been perceived in the neighborhood.

[jajagappa]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

whether the Dragonrise dragon returns to its resting place

I believe it does.  GS p.14 says "The Brown Dragon: This True Dragon awoke in 1625 and devoured the New Lunar Temple in Dragon Pass. It currently resides in a vast and deep gap in the earth called the Dragonrise Chasm."  And on p.160, "The True Dragon spiraled around Dragon Pass, circled Mount Kero Fin and then returned to the huge crevice it had made where once stood the New Lunar Temple."

Edited July 23, 2017 by jajagappa

[Oracle]

13 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I believe it does.  GS p.14 says "The Brown Dragon: This True Dragon awoke in 1625 and devoured the New Lunar Temple in Dragon Pass. It currently resides in a vast and deep gap in the earth called the Dragonrise Chasm."  And on p.160, "The True Dragon spiraled around Dragon Pass, circled Mount Kero Fin and then returned to the huge crevice it had made where once stood the New Lunar Temple."

So this means the Dragon of Jarn is the Brown Dragon is the Dragon of the Dragonrise?

BTW: GS is the Gloranthan Sourcebook from the 13th Age in Glorantha Kickstarter (which is still not available for late starter like me ...)?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Oracle said:

So this means the Dragon of Jarn is the Brown Dragon is the Dragon of the Dragonrise?

I think it remains a mystery.  I would probably play it as distinct (though whether it is a True Dragon, a Dream Dragon, a Dragon in process of becoming a True Dragon, or something else, is unclear), or suggest that Garstal made his works up and never figured out the location of the Brown Dragon.  But it's equally valid to say that it is the Brown Dragon, which certainly is the Dragon of the Dragonrise.

1 hour ago, Oracle said:

GS is the Gloranthan Sourcebook from the 13th Age in Glorantha Kickstarter

Yes.  Sorry to quote from something that is not yet fully available. :-(

[Oracle]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

...

Yes.  Sorry to quote from something that is not yet fully available. :-(

That's ok as long as I understand, where it comes from. Everything else is just a matter of time ...

[David Scott]

50 minutes ago, Oracle said:

BTW: GS is the Gloranthan Sourcebook from the 13th Age in Glorantha Kickstarter (which is still not available for late starter like me ...)?

Whilst I can't speak for this particular Kickstarter, most kickstarters allow those who missed the boat to pre-order through Backerkit (or similar) when that time comes around. The Gloranthan Sourcebook is not listed as only available to backers, so IMHO it's likely to be available likely for the $15 PDF and $30 PDF plus P&P, but what do I know.

[davecake]

13 hours ago, Oracle said:

 

This reads a bit different here. at least from the description in this chapter I got the impression, that Wyrms may have existed already before the Empire of the Wyrms Friend. According to what living Wyrms say, they are just using a different path than other dragonkind. Is that true? Can we believe, what Wyrms are telling us. (Or is the whole topic open to interpretation? )

It is interesting that dragonnewts are notable avoiders of elemental magic (right from RQ1 days), while wyrms are significant enthusiasts, the Guide mentions Orlanth as popular with them, and the Sun Dragon cult in the Paris reprint we know of mostly about through Wyrmish adherent Windwhistler. It does make me think that EWF magic may have had more to do with wyrms than dragonnewts. 

[Joerg]

Peter @metcalphpointed out to me that the definition of dinos in Glorantha may differ from ours (re: ichthyo- and plesiosaurs in Hot Lake in Pent).

My Gloranthan definition of dinos is "big hulking, egg-laying creatures covered in scale and/or downs". Both ichthyo- and plesiosaurs never leave their wet element and are viviparous, like certain snakes, but no birds or proper (terrestrial) dinos.

Which leads to the question how important the "egg" stage of the draconic life cycle is. With dragonewts, it is all about the eggs. Dragons hatch from eggs, unless they hatch from a cocoon materializing around a meditating draconic mystic, basically an ersatz-egg.

Reformed draconic dinos (failed warrior 'newts) may spin such a cocoon around themselves and emerge as pteranodons, according to White Bear and Red Moon/Dragon Pass.

(Interestingly I read that ruler-dragonewts appear to spin such a cocoon when their meditations approach dragonhood, too, giving them a second, adult egg-like vessel. The source for this may have been @Loz' non-canonical MRQ dragonewt book, though. But like with the MRQ Elf book by Shannon Appel, this book is in all likelihood based on more unpublished crypto-canon than available to your less prvileged Glorantha sage.)

EWF leaders could manifest a draconic body similar to the Immanent Masters of Kralorela (and in fact Isgangdrang's method was described as a variant of Immanent Mastery in History of the Heortling Peoples p.48) without the concept of an egg. So could Ingolf, who was more "orthodox" (using a non-short cut practice similar to the successful hence orthodox method of Obduran), but Ingolf acknowledged that his spiritual development was lacking when he succumbed to repeated temptation to use his draconic powers outside of his draconic pilgrimage to the Ultimate.

For a human to achieve true dragonhood, it is possible that there has to be an experience as an egg. A deep meditation inside a manifested cocoon could qualify for that.

 

So, how is a dragon defined in Glorantha?

In contact with the Ultimate or at least the One (possessing full mystics' powers)

Immense - dragons may merge with the topography, and draw geographic features to their "bodies" when rising up. See Ormsgone Valley.

Fear-inducing.

Egg-laying, or at least hatched from an egg.

Winged.

Scaled skin, providing a nigh-impenetrable armor. Feathers or downs might grow beyond that, but haven't been documented. On the other hand, a phoenix is not quite a bird of fire, and may be a form of dragon. (Dragons and fire may have a closer relationship than suspected, if you look at the Solar Emperor's representation in Gods War. On the Gods Wall, Yelm (or Murharzarm?) sits on the dragon throne.)

Fire-breathing, or possibly some similar caustic breath/emanation weapon.

Based on a skeleton of dragonbone,  a proto-metallic substance which can be sung into tools, armor and weapons by suitably attuned draconic mystics (like dragonewts), but by nobody else (or the huge vertebrae in western Dinacoli lands would have been mined for good).

 

The Sea Dragons slain by Waertag and his descendants are described as true dragons. While we don't get to see any wings on the great image of the Dragon City-Ship, that is supposed to be a reanimated Frankenstein of the former sea dragon, with parts of the sea dragon body used for other building projects, and the wings may have been re-purposed (either by the dragon or his conquerors) into huge flippers or keels.

From the description, Sea Dragons used to be common enough for the Waertagi to base their material culture on them as their main source of raw material. Their interaction with the sea dragons may have been as fatal to the sea dragon population as the Maori interaction with the Moas turned out, though. The Aftal fragment from Missing Lands has Waertagi shored up by the Closing on the lookout for sea dragons passing by, though, far out in the Homeward Ocean.

I wonder whether those sea dragons hunted in the Aftal story would be True Dragons or some lesser draconic kin of the Sea Dragons, possibly some analog to mosasaurs.

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Joerg
stuck editor