Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 6 - The Lesser Elder Races

[David Scott]

Lesser Elder Races section comments here!

Main thread: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6547-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-6/

Deep Discussion: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6548-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-6-deep-discussion/

Errors: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6518-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-6-errors/

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by David Scott

[jajagappa]

Another section that draws upon Elder Secrets, but pulls in both some classic artwork and adds in the nice fresco of the beastmen.  The latter really looks like someone has gone to Nochet and taken a picture of an interior wall from one of the noble houses.

[Dogboy]

Yup, love the fresco too

[davecake]

Interested that the Beastmen seem to have their own opinions about who is a valid beastmen, but it seems pretty inclusive. 

I'd like to know more about beastmen outside Genertela.

[davecake]

Interesting that the keets are described as a sub-species of duck, rather than the other way around. Also, that the majority are still ducks - I would have expected duck-keets to be just another minority species. 

[davecake]

Ogres - they are in every culture apart from the Brithini, but we know relatively little about them in eg East Isles, Pamaltela, the West. 

[davecake]

Wind Children - I didn't know about the range of colours. 

The mention of mountain spirits implies they don't work only with air spirits, wh h is also news to me. 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

Interested that the Beastmen seem to have their own opinions about who is a valid beastmen, but it seems pretty inclusive. 

I'd like to know more about beastmen outside Genertela.

There are hardly any. The Rascullu of Pamaltela appear to be a God Learner creation of the Six-Legged empire, and probably have no mythical precursor. They are now honorary Fiwan (Hsunchen). Delecti might have been behind this, or a student of his.

I don't know any other Beastmen in Pamaltela, and none in either Jrustela or the East Isles. Vormain might and Kralorela certainly has Fox Women, and probably other such entities there.

[Stew Stansfield]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

Interesting that the keets are described as a sub-species of duck, rather than the other way around. Also, that the majority are still ducks - I would have expected duck-keets to be just another minority species. 

Yep, I suspect my Glorantha might vary a little there. (Albeit perhaps because I spend too much time sodding around with ducks in Dragon Pass and want to encounter something a little different.) That said, I guess 'duck' can cover a multitude of sins...

In case people weren't aware, this info isn't new – it's a mash-up of the information in Elder Secrets (our answerphone message du jour) and a textbox of Sandy's in Tales of the Reaching Moon #17 (p. 40). It's the latter piece that had the 'majority' comment – with the added clarification of '75%+'.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't know any other Beastmen in Pamaltela, and none in either Jrustela or the East Isles. Vormain might and Kralorela certainly has Fox Women, and probably other such entities there.

There are shapeshifting foxes, badgers and tigers in the Aurubdey Forest of Vormain (Guide p533).  They are not described as beastfolk but since they can shapeshift into human form, they are similar to the fox women or the swan maiden.  

The Jrusteli Beastmen are better known as Timinits, I'd think.

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Jrusteli Beastmen are better known as Timinits, I'd think.

I wouldn't call timinits beast-men, they are Gloranthan species (rather than races) of their own. They don't have any human parts or the ability to look human, either.

They may have been part of the nature (goddess) worship of Jrustela before their interaction with the humans, but that form of culture appears to have been lost.

The Guide offers rather sparse information about the Timinits - a sidebar about Lucans and a half-a-page box naming the most common ones, a few mentions in the Second Age Gazetteer of Jrustela, and mention of timinit colonies brought to Kumanku and Umathela.

The box on p.503 claims that the Timinits have no culture.

 

The Jrustela book by Mongoose pictured the timinits as an integrated part of Jrusteli Malkionism, with significant minorities in Jrusteli cities. This is sort of corroborated by their occupation of God Learner ruins both in Jrustela and Kumanku. In Umathela, they appear to have served mainly as a self-sustaining force keeping the forests at bay.

Timinit population numbers are absent from the Jrustela, and unknown for Kumanku.

 

There is no mention of interaction between the Uz of Jruztela, their cult of Gorakiki, and the timinits. One might think that these insect-like folk would be of notice to the insectivorous trolls.

[jrutila]

Following is some thoughts from the discussion in Ropecon.

It is interesting how this classification to Lesser Elder Race was decided. I was kind of expecting for example Griffins appear here and see Scorpion Men more as a monster. Is it about that they are intelligent and civilized races or is it about their influence to others? Someone has said that the Elder Races are the link to Scifi from Glorantha meaning that you can explore scifi themed issues through Elder Races. We also noted that none of the Lesser Elder Races (from Elder Races also only Mostali) are atheist. Some of the Lesser Elder Races are little hard to digest, but that resonates with our world.

With Beast Men we noted that they are appearing in areas that have experienced some kind of big havoc where humans were wiped out.
About broos: If you don't know what to do with Chaos, bring broos.
The ducks have always been the somewhat controversial part of Glorantha. They can be very well used when exploring minority questions. On the other hand the Keets have had their on islands where they are kind of majority.

Jelmres wre interesting in that they have their own magic system from the usual four.
Newtlings were said to be Dragonewts for Dummies.
Ogres are hidious creatures and bring Chaos amongst humans, hidden. Broos are corrupting the physical beings and Ogres corrupt the morality of humans.

[Dogboy]

6 minutes ago, jrutila said:

We also noted that none of the Lesser Elder Races (from Elder Races also only Mostali) are atheist.

I'd question if anyone is atheist in Glorantha. Everyone knows there are spirits, great and small, even if they think worship of them is misguided.

I'd probably use the term rationalist over atheist.

[Joerg]

47 minutes ago, jrutila said:

It is interesting how this classification to Lesser Elder Race was decided. I was kind of expecting for example Griffins appear here and see Scorpion Men more as a monster.

True, sapient "monsters" that aren't draconic or beast-man related (manticores) don't get much press here. Giants, griffins, grotaron, gorgers, gargoyles etc. are mentioned elsewhere (and probably a few species not starting with a g, too).

 

47 minutes ago, jrutila said:

Is it about that they are intelligent and civilized races or is it about their influence to others?

Having something like a culture appears to be a criterion, which seems to be the argument for excluding the timinits from population numbers. Others suffer from being rather off-focus, like the Andinni races.

 

47 minutes ago, jrutila said:

Someone has said that the Elder Races are the link to Scifi from Glorantha meaning that you can explore scifi themed issues through Elder Races.

If you mean Scifi-like cultures the Stargate or Enterprise TNG/Voyager crews might upon landfall of an unknown planet, you're probably right. Some of the "humans with plastic" cultures attempt to paste archaic-seeming societies onto space-faring ones, like the Klingons, the Drasi, or the various-themed cultist Jaffa.

 

47 minutes ago, jrutila said:

We also noted that none of the Lesser Elder Races (from Elder Races also only Mostali) are atheist.

I agree with Dan that real atheism is sort of contrary to the premise of Glorantha. The Brithini, Vadeli and a few others are non-worshipers, but acknowledge the presence of deities, and limited use thereof.

Rationalism requires quite a bit of culture. Absence of culture can result in quasi-atheism, like the timinits of the Third Age.

There might be some weak form of nihilism among some of the Andins.

 

47 minutes ago, jrutila said:

With Beast Men we noted that they are appearing in areas that have experienced some kind of big havoc where humans were wiped out.

Areas returned to the Wild goddesses. There are none in Genert's Wastes despite a massive loss in human and otherwise population (neither Pentans nor most of the Praxians were present in the Wastes at the Dawn).

 

Aldryami presence appears to be optional, although the Biturian Varosh stories makes them Children of the Forest (aka "lay initiates of Aldrya") in Cults of Prax when Morak is given over to his semi-bestial kin in the Redwood Forest of Prax/Dagori Inkarth.

It might be a case of "domestication" of genii loci as tribal deities or spirits. Once the land has been attuned to agriculture or pastoralism, the wild aspect appears to retreat. The Kralori foxwomen etc. are found among the Hsunchen in the Shan Shan valleys, and not among rice paddies.

 

47 minutes ago, jrutila said:

The ducks have always been the somewhat controversial part of Glorantha. They can be very well used when exploring minority questions. On the other hand the Keets have had their on islands where they are kind of majority.

Ducks are misfits in central Genertela. They lack the noble history of the keets (along with the ancient fault of the keets of irating Togaro), probably having forgotten it after stranding in Genertela. The Pithdarans (Agimori humans) of Seshnela are a bit similar - they too were stranded in a foreign place and gave up most of their old ways in exchange for local ones. I suppose that a keet sage could stir up the Manirian ducks just as much as Hunralki from Jolar does the Pithdarans.

 

47 minutes ago, jrutila said:

Newtlings were said to be Dragonewts for Dummies.

 

I'd rather play a magisaur if I wanted to have not quite a dragonewt in my game. Dragonewts are many things, but not at all newts. The main similarity between a newtling and a scout dragonewt are the RQ hit locations.

Newtling slaves of dragonewts might be a way to play a nonhuman character with very weak draconewt magic, however most newtlings who choose to serve the dragonewts probably do so for almost their entire bachelor stage. Given the rather short remaining time of free will before turning into a rather single-minded adult, having only one-use dragonewt effects probably is not a problem.

 

[Oracle]

As already mentioned in previous comments this section seems to be a slightly enhanced reprint of the respective information available under the same title in the Elder Races Book from the RuneQuest III box Elder Secrets of Glorantha. But there are some points, which triggered my attention:

• Beat Men/Centaurs: the Centaurs have their own entry in the Elder Races Book, although also mentioned there in the Beast Men entry. As Centaurs were alway considered as Beast Men (as far as I know), it is probably consistent to do without this extra entry. On the other hand the Mythos and History of the Centaurs entry in the Elder Races Book mentions, that Centaurs living now may be the result of some medical experiments performed by the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. And I think, I have read similar things about other Beat Mes subtypes too (but I may imagine that ). But no information in that direction in the Guide - at least not up to this point.
• Lesser Elder Races listed in the Elder Races Book but not in the Guide:
  • Baboons
  • Giants
  • Grotarons
  • Luatha (which are a race of immortals and therefore may not applicate for being a Lesser Elder Race)
  • Ludoch (but are now part of the Merfolk section in the Elder Races chapter)
  • Morocanth (do they not count any more as an Elder Race, because they are one of the Five Great Tribes of Prax?)
  • Slarges
  • Timinits
  • Tusk Riders
  • Voralans
  • Waertagi
• Lesser Elder Races listed in the Guide but not in the Elder Races Book:
  • Scorpion Men

Any reason for these differences (besides space constraints in the Guide)?

Also missing again: population table and distribution map.

[Akhôrahil]

On 2017-07-30 at 4:38 PM, Dogboy said:

I'd question if anyone is atheist in Glorantha. Everyone knows there are spirits, great and small, even if they think worship of them is misguided.

I'd probably use the term rationalist over atheist.

“Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.”
—Terry Pratchett

[Dogboy]

56 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

“Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.”
—Terry Pratchett

I remember Simon Bray telling Greg that Small Gods was a good example of how Gloranthan worship worked. He got a little flustered.

[M Helsdon]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 11:07 PM, Oracle said:

• Lesser Elder Races listed in the Elder Races Book but not in the Guide:
  • Baboons
  • Giants
  • Grotarons
  • Luatha (which are a race of immortals and therefore may not applicate for being a Lesser Elder Race)
  • Ludoch (but are now part of the Merfolk section in the Elder Races chapter)
  • Morocanth (do they not count any more as an Elder Race, because they are one of the Five Great Tribes of Prax?)
  • Slarges
  • Timinits
  • Tusk Riders
  • Voralans
  • Waertagi

Many of those are mentioned elsewhere in the Guide. So I imagine in the interests of not duplicating material they weren't included in this chapter. There are text boxes on Slarges, Luatha, and Timinit, and a subchapter under Oceans on the Waertagi.

Some others are mentioned in the Prax overview: Baboons, Morokanth; Tusk Riders are mentioned in the Troll overview; Voralans are mentioned in the Elf overview; Ludoch are mentioned in the Merfolk overview.

So the only ones 'missing' are Giants and Grotarons, and there's quite a bit about the former scattered about.

[Oracle]

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Many of those are mentioned elsewhere in the Guide. So I imagine in the interests of not duplicating material they weren't included in this chapter. There are text boxes on Slarges, Luatha, and Timinit, and a subchapter under Oceans on the Waertagi.

Some others are mentioned in the Prax overview: Baboons, Morokanth; Tusk Riders are mentioned in the Troll overview; Voralans are mentioned in the Elf overview; Ludoch are mentioned in the Merfolk overview.

So the only ones 'missing' are Giants and Grotarons, and there's quite a bit about the former scattered about.

Yes, I've seen the entries about Baboons, Morokanths, Tusk Riders, etc. So I've expected to find something about the missing entries later in the Guide. But are they classified as Lesser Elder Races anywhere?. I don't think so. So the question is: Has the classification changed or was is it just not mentioned (the latter you could say is an error ...)

[M Helsdon]

7 minutes ago, Oracle said:

But are they classified as Lesser Elder Races anywhere?. I don't think so. So the question is: Has the classification changed or was is it just not mentioned (the latter you could say is an error ...)

The Introduction to the Elder Race chapters says, discussing THE LESSER ELDER RACES: Several of the most important of the lesser Elder Races are described here: beast men, broos, ducks, jelmre, newtlings, ogres, scorpion men, and Wind Children. The more obscure races are not, for reasons of space.

Edited August 1, 2017 by M Helsdon

[Oracle]

Ok, so several lesser Elder Races are not listed in this section because of space constraints. That's fine with me. But the question still open is: Which are the more obscure races? As far as I can say, the (formerly) lesser Elder Races mentioned so far were not explicitly classified as Lesser Elder Races. So if I rely on the Guide to Glorantha only, how do I know, if e.g. Baboons or Morocanths are Lesser Elder Races or something else?

[David Scott]

I think it's important to define what this Elder and lesser elder race actually means. To me its population numbers and their impact on the world. For example, you could have a race that has a very large population, but is totally insular - making them minor, the reverse also being true. Overall it's population numbers. Anther factor would be who in glorantha is using these definitions. Some of you may remember that in traveller there was a definition of who was a major race based on whether or not you had independently discovered jump drive. Those who hadn't were categorised as a minor race and subsequently sat in the backwaters of history.

In the Wastes, the dividing line for major and minor tribes is about 18000.

Morokanth 80k

High Llama 65k

-------

Rhino riders 18k

Baboon 10k

Pol joni 10k

 

I suspect most of the Lesser Elder races are small in size.

Slarges 170k, mainly Tarien.

Timinits Vast numbers, mainly Jrustela

Tusk riders 5k

(no time to do others)