Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 6 - Mythos & History

[David Scott]

Mythos & History section comments here!

Main thread: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6547-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-6/

Deep Discussion: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6548-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-6-deep-discussion/

Errors: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6518-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-6-errors/

Here is different version of Heaven's Corrupted step 8 called "Umath ravages Yelm's sons" discovered during the research by Eric Vanel:

Edited July 24, 2017 by David Scott

[David Scott]

The art was amazing in this section, Eric's Heavens Corrupted discs, Baroshi and the maggot to name but a few. Also the epic nature of the Mythology was fantastic.

Edited July 24, 2017 by David Scott

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

The art was amazing in this section, Eric's Heavens Corrupted discs, Baroshi and the maggot to name but a few. Also the epic nature of the Mythology was fantastic.

Absolutely agree.  The Lightbringer's Quest is a stunning piece and the rendering of the quest in this 'flowing' vision with 'intersecting' pieces is very different.  I particularly liked the opening pictures where you have a sense of zooming in to the demonic guardians of the gates of dusk, and the Dark King (the Only Old One?) with his fork and bottle of presumably hot sauce.

The Web of Arachne Solara with the gods pulling the net tight is another interesting piece, and very reminiscent/reflective of the cover art.  A few of the gods are obvious (Magasta, King Griffin, Chalana Arroy, Kyger Litor, Ernalda), but be interested to hear which others folk think are included (or not).

From reading the description of the Baroshi and the Maggot picture, my sense is that it was originally supposed to be full color.  It's still a wonderful picture.  And great to actually see Baroshi depicted all these many years after Snakepipe Hollow first introduced us to this story.

I like the way the traditional cosmology and mythic story is interwoven with the pictures/notes of the Heavens Corrupted, a very specific and distinct DH view of the cosmos.  Gives you the sense that beyond the God Learner view there are many other threads that could be explored.

 

[Dogboy]

page 124, best Arachne Solara. EVAH!.

[Joerg]

On 25.7.2017 at 1:23 AM, jajagappa said:

The Web of Arachne Solara with the gods pulling the net tight is another interesting piece, and very reminiscent/reflective of the cover art.  A few of the gods are obvious (Magasta, King Griffin, Chalana Arroy, Kyger Litor, Ernalda), but be interested to hear which others folk think are included (or not).

I would like to see the art direction for this. Looking at the 16 deities holding the net, I think they are dressed in styles known in the Theyalan culture, so Kethaela or Saird might be where this comes from. Given the mer-king in position 16, I think a coastal culture is more likely.

1 King Griffin? While we definitely see a sky creature, it has all the wrong features for a griffin - hind legs of a bird (rather than a lion), forearms of a humanoid or a predator, and a horned demon head rather than a beaked bird's head. Only the wings and the little bird's tail are anywhere in the right position.

2 A bearded guy with high head-dress and pointy, upcurved boots - at a guess a Zzaburi costume from God Forgot, indicating Zzabur.

3 A guy with curly beard and hair in a short tunic, leaving one shoulder free - at a guess a strongman's guise. Lodril? Barntar?

4 A haggard female in a robe with extremely wide sleeves and a crown-like hood with a beehive headdress or hairdo. A crone from Esrolia - Asrelia?

5 A rather small, beardless figure in a long, sleeve.less tunic with a cloak attached and apparently long pants. The hairdo looks like rather short rat-tails. Eurmal?

6 A wide-hipped female in a knee-length dress or skirt, with a shoulder-cover, and a wreath of flowers in the hairdo.

7 A Dara Happan male, recognizable from the curled beard, with the double crown - the Emperor, Yelm.

8 A bare-chested, tattooed (looks like Orlanthi clan tats) female in a knee-length skirt, probably Esrolian style, wearing an elaborate necklace, with an open hairdo. Esrolian Ernalda?

9 A six-breasted troll female in a ground-length skirt - Kyger Litor.

10 A full-bearded, bare-chested male with a sword on his belt and an arm-ring showing an air rune. Orlanth.

11 A rather stout full bearde male with a wild mane, wearing a knee-length tunic and leather armbands on the lower arms. The hair style is reminiscent of fire. Lodril/Vestkarthan?

12 A tattooed, barefoot male in a speedo and a very short, short-sleeved shirt, wearing a huge necklace. Bald, but with a beard on the lower jaw. The tattoos indicate waves. A sailor. Dormal??

13 A female in a frilly, knee-length skirt and little else, tattooed with vines, wearing a flower wreath over her open hair. Aldrya?

14 A beardless male in pants and a richly decorated short tunic, with chains dangling from his belt. The tunic shows a circle below his right shoulder, and a smaller, not quite circular shape below his left, possibly a light rune and something similar (earth? another light?).

15 A female in a bottom-lenght feature-less (white?) dress held to her neck on a choker. Open hair with a diadem, arm rings or tattoos.

16 A crowned triton. Magasta.

 

I wonder whether the deities are shown, or whether this is a representation of the regional questers required to perform the Sacred Time rites.

There is no obvious Mostali.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Joerg

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

6 A wide-hipped female in a knee-length dress or skirt, with a shoulder-cover, and a wreath of flowers in the hairdo.

My guess is Oria or Orana.  

 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

15 A female in a bottom-lenght feature-less (white?) dress held to her neck on a choker. Open hair with a diadem, arm rings or tattoos.

I assumed this was Chalana Arroy.

Given the presence of Magasta, a coastal culture (e.g. Heortland and vicinity) would make sense.

[metcalph]

On 26/07/2017 at 5:58 AM, Joerg said:

1 King Griffin? While we definitely see a sky creature, it has all the wrong features for a griffin - hind legs of a bird (rather than a lion), forearms of a humanoid or a predator, and a horned demon head rather than a beaked bird's head. Only the wings and the little bird's tail are anywhere in the right position.

The picture is based on Anzu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzû_(mythology)#/media/File:Chaos_Monster_and_Sun_God.png

The same figure (I dunno if this is intentional) is used for the Dragon Sun on the Fortunate Succession p36

And yes, Anzu is similar to a griffin.

On 26/07/2017 at 5:58 AM, Joerg said:

2 A bearded guy with high head-dress and pointy, upcurved boots - at a guess a Zzaburi costume from God Forgot, indicating Zzabur.

It could be Lhankor Mhy.  But I don't know where Issaries and the others are.

 

On 26/07/2017 at 5:58 AM, Joerg said:

4 A haggard female in a robe with extremely wide sleeves and a crown-like hood with a beehive headdress or hairdo. A crone from Esrolia - Asrelia?

Guide p251 - Grandmother's costume.  

On 26/07/2017 at 5:58 AM, Joerg said:

6 A wide-hipped female in a knee-length dress or skirt, with a shoulder-cover, and a wreath of flowers in the hairdo.

My guess is an Esrolian Queen (Guide p251)

On 26/07/2017 at 5:58 AM, Joerg said:

12 A tattooed, barefoot male in a speedo and a very short, short-sleeved shirt, wearing a huge necklace. Bald, but with a beard on the lower jaw. The tattoos indicate waves. A sailor. Dormal??

Diros more likely.

On 26/07/2017 at 5:58 AM, Joerg said:

15 A female in a bottom-lenght feature-less (white?) dress held to her neck on a choker. Open hair with a diadem, arm rings or tattoos.

Chalana Arroy?

 

 

[Joerg]

31 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The picture is based on Anzu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzû_(mythology)#/media/File:Chaos_Monster_and_Sun_God.png

The same figure (I dunno if this is intentional) is used for the Dragon Sun on the Fortunate Succession p36

And yes, Anzu is similar to a griffin.

I didn't make a direct connection to any Mesopotamian culture, but my first impression was something like the Cherubim of Solomon's Temple (not at all cherubs as per Renaissance and later art). Perhaps some Venebain creatures - of Hell and Sky.

 

#2

31 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It could be Lhankor Mhy.  But I don't know where Issaries and the others are.

Candidates for Issaries might be 3 or 14. There seems to be a consensus for Chalana at 15, although that could be a Sedenya/Zaytenera figure just as well. 

The beard style of #2 would be unusual for Theyalan Lhankor Mhy, which tends to long, vertically flowing facial fluff, whether home-grown or prosthetic. Other styles sported by individualist female sages probably are the equivalent to a side-shave or a mohawk in our world, a fashion statement of non-conformism.

That said, I still feel that in Esrolia the beard ethics are an ever so slight rebellious fashion statement against the grandmothers' fear of and hatred for self-determined masculinity.

 

#3

31 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Guide p251 - Grandmother's costume.  

I think I made that identification already. The question mark was about her divine representation - Great Imarja (when removed from that goofy durulz lookalike style) would be Ernalda or Arachne Solara. Grannies' Imarja would look like a slim and tall female durulz.

 

#6

31 minutes ago, metcalph said:

My guess is an Esrolian Queen (Guide p251)

I don't think so, way too little boobage, wrong type of skirt - this looks like a mini skirt, possibly because the width of that rump, even though it has roughly the same length as #8.

The short skirt might point to Pelorian dress order, so Oria might be a better fit.

 

#12

31 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Diros more likely.

Diros is a cultural hero, not a major god. But then Dormal isn't either. This guy is no Heler, either.

This guy is one of my reasons to regard these folk as participants in the ritual recreating the myth rather than as the deities themselves.

 

#15

31 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Chalana Arroy?

Or Zaytenera/Sedenya? Other than the monster at #1, I see no other candidate suitable to represent the Lunar way. #7 is pure Dara Happan Patriarch.

 

[David Scott]

On 25/07/2017 at 6:58 PM, Joerg said:

I wonder whether the deities are shown, or whether this is a representation of the regional questers required to perform the Sacred Time rites.

Here's a section of the original art direction for Mike Perry:

Quote

 

The Gods: These are all much smaller than Arachne Solara or the God of Chaos, and are around the edge of the web, supporting it and holding it taunt. They could include:

Yelm: The Sun Emperor. A bearded Assyrian or Persian emperor

Oria: The Mother of All. http://www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/hairdress_sm.jpg

Lodril: The Fire Below. A lecherous, gluttonous, but powerful bearded man. 

Orlanth: The Storm King. A bearded barbaric hero-king. Husband of Ernalda.

Ernalda: The Earth Goddess. A beautiful Minoan priestess. Wife of Orlanth.

Issaries: The Talking God. A handsome young man.

Lhankor Mhy: The Knowing God. A bearded sage.

Chalana Arroy: The Healing Goddess. A white-robed woman.

Eurmal: The Trickster. A lewd, treacherous god.

Kyger Litor: The goddess of trolls and darkness. A monstrous six-breasted troll goddess

Humakt: The God of War and Death. An armored and helmeted warrior with a sword.

Aldrya: The Goddess of Plants. A divine version of Poison Ivy.

Gold-Griffin: A griffin god 

Magasta: The Ocean God. A powerful merman with the tail of a dolphin instead of legs. 

 

Not all are needed (or we could add many many more), but this gives some idea of the variety to choose from.

 

 

[Joerg]

With most of the text familiar since Cults of Terror, there is another source of recurring discovery in this section  - the commentary (p.123) on the depiction of the Lightbringers' Quest, on p.122.

We have fairly detailed textual descriptions of the quest in King of Sartar and Heortling Mythology, after shorter ones from Cults of Prax. The stations here often have little to do with those texts, though, and the style of the depictions is different from anything else seen in the Theyalan context.

This appears to be the recollection of Harmast's journey(s). Harmast is the only known individual to undergo the Full Lightbringers Quest twice, and I would wager that the second one differed significantly from his first. So, with each of this stations, the question remains whether Harmast encountered it on his first or his second quest. (And whether Harmast could tell the difference after re-emerging from the Underworld).

Station 3: The Obsidian Mirror

Is this another version of the Gates of Dusk? Note that there comes another mirror at station 8. Neither is mentioned in the textual versions. Station 8 is quite explicit in the Eleven Lights quest, however.

Stations 6, 7: The Judge of the Dead, prior to the Bridge over the River of Swords. King of Sartar (p.59) has Janak and the bridge before you enter the Court of Silence. KoS p.72 suggests that Issaries negotiated the boat fare with Jeset the Ferryman instead, no bridge involved, but special knowledge of Lhankor Mhy involving the Elder Tree allowing the original questers to bypass the Court of Silence, it seems.

Station 9: Twin newborn gods - Arkat and Talor? Time and what?

Station 10: The Feast of the Dark King, at the bottom of the staircase of the Obsidian Palace. In KoS, this is followed by "Alone in Hell", one of the mystical stages of the quest. (One that is found in the Red Goddess Quest as well, with Yanafal taking the part of the Swan Feather.)

I always wonder why no questers skipped the Westfaring and used the Obsidian Palace as an entryway to the Underworld.

Stations 11 and 12 bear no similarity at all with the LBQ in King of Sartar - no King Griffin, and only an allusion of the Fires of Ehilm (the earliest proof of multiple suns in published Glorantha). The Hall of Dead Gods in station 13 is a lot bleaker, no Ritual of the Net, but only the casting of the web in station 14.

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I always wonder why no questers skipped the Westfaring and used the Obsidian Palace as an entryway to the Underworld.

Good question.  Certainly the Palace of Black Glass must have stairs leading directly there. 

The story of Queen Norinel and Kimantor in the Esrolia book implies that many from Nochet fled the demons there to find safety in the Obsidian Palace.  Were they among the hosts/guests offended when Orlanth arrived and offended his host?  My guess is yes.  What did Orlanth do that was so offensive?  Well, Norinel as Queen of Nochet/Esrolia was Ernalda's representative.  Maybe Orlanth saw her AS Ernalda and attempted to steal/woo/love her.  As wife of Kimantor, that would certainly betray and offend his host! 

Naturally, the OOO/Kimantor remembers Orlanth's deception and betrayal and has posted guards, bound demons, and arrayed others throughout the Palace to destroy Orlanth if he returns.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Good question.  Certainly the Palace of Black Glass must have stairs leading directly there. 

Hidden under the Tarpit since 1318, but there might be other entries from the innards of the Plateau. Blackwell might be one.

And even the Blackmaw in Nochet might have a connection.

 

There is a possibilty that the God Learners thought of this method of intruding into the Lightbringers' Quest, and anybody taking that path would have to deal with security mechanisms directed against God Learner intrusions. Which might be both a boon and a curse, since the targetting would be somewhat off, but might be erraticly on spot for personal affiliations rather than the mythical role taken by the intruders.

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The story of Queen Norinel and Kimantor in the Esrolia book implies that many from Nochet fled the demons there to find safety in the Obsidian Palace.  Were they among the hosts/guests offended when Orlanth arrived and offended his host?  My guess is yes. 

I would assume so - see below.

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

What did Orlanth do that was so offensive? 

He took responsibility for Eurmal having killed the Son of the Dark King.

Quote

Station 10. The feast of the Dark King. At a table sits the Dark King wearing a crown of rulership. At his left, the murderous Trickster reveals that he has killed the son of the Dark King. At his right, the Trickster’s liegeman, the storm god Orlanth, reacts with horror and outrage. The Dark King himself is outraged at this breach of the sacred laws of hospitality.

Heortling Mythology gets more specific (p.117):

Quote

When the Lightbringers were lulled into a sense of security in the Obsidian Castle of Only Old One, Eurmal struck. He seduced Only Old One’s son and killed Him, so that Only Old One would be the last of His line.

I am not exactly  sure whether Kimantor was Ezkankekko, and this son would have been the son of Kimantor and Norinel, or whether Kimantor was the son of Ezkankekko who was slain here. Anyway, this might explain why the Kitori returned as a race of adoptees rather than as a dynasty of children of the Only Old One. (And I suppose that his title OOO stems from his son and descendants being slain.)

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Well, Norinel as Queen of Nochet/Esrolia was Ernalda's representative.  Maybe Orlanth saw her AS Ernalda and attempted to steal/woo/love her.  As wife of Kimantor, that would certainly betray and offend his host! 

What follows is "Alone in Hell", which is where a goose feather conveys Ernalda's love to Orlanth, and sets him onto his path again.

I think that Norinel would have been definitely different from Ernalda at this point - a grieving mother or widow (depending on whether Kimantor was the son, or the OOO himself) rather than the loving wife asleep deep in Asrelia's caves, manifest only through Ginna Jar.

Norinel appears to be both Queen of Nochet and Grandmother by this time of her marriage to Kimantor. She would embody the misandristic aspect of Imarja, well suited to her temporary domicil in the Underworld.

 

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Naturally, the OOO/Kimantor remembers Orlanth's deception and betrayal and has posted guards, bound demons, and arrayed others throughout the Palace to destroy Orlanth if he returns.

Hard to say, really. Orlanth and Eurmal had not taken the Obsidian stairwell, so that route wouldn't have been guarded like that. Instead, the outer approaches to the Palace from Hell (outside of the Court of Silence) would have been guarded, and Jeset might have been instructed not to accept living passengers any more.

 

Not that Jeset being on strike means that there are no alternatives to the bridge of Janak. There might be Waertagi down there, separated from the rest of their fleet. Trickster might fell the Ellder Tree instead.

[scott-martin]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Stations 6, 7: The Judge of the Dead, prior to the Bridge over the River of Swords. King of Sartar (p.59) has Janak and the bridge before you enter the Court of Silence. KoS p.72 suggests that Issaries negotiated the boat fare with Jeset the Ferryman instead, no bridge involved, but special knowledge of Lhankor Mhy involving the Elder Tree allowing the original questers to bypass the Court of Silence, it seems.

Great catch. I wonder if the quest forks early enough that someone could succeed with either a beard or a talker, but not necessarily both.

Edited August 5, 2017 by scott-martin

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There is a possibilty that the God Learners thought of this method of intruding into the Lightbringers' Quest, and anybody taking that path would have to deal with security mechanisms directed against God Learner intrusions. Which might be both a boon and a curse, since the targetting would be somewhat off, but might be erraticly on spot for personal affiliations rather than the mythical role taken by the intruders.

Quite possible.  Also possible that Arkat set up one of the Arkati to guard this path to keep Gbaji from following it.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

He took responsibility for Eurmal having killed the Son of the Dark King.

That is certainly the known/expected story. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I am not exactly  sure whether Kimantor was Ezkankekko, and this son would have been the son of Kimantor and Norinel, or whether Kimantor was the son of Ezkankekko who was slain here. Anyway, this might explain why the Kitori returned as a race of adoptees rather than as a dynasty of children of the Only Old One. (And I suppose that his title OOO stems from his son and descendants being slain.)

It's always a bit unclear whether Kimantor is OOO or a son.  Kimantor and Norinel certainly have two children, Delargara and Desdel (girl and boy).  There's no particular indication of either child being slain.

The Esrolia book does note:  "In the fortress Lord Kimantor courageously fought his way into the temple of the missing god."  At this point, he becomes Lord Victory Nightbrother.  Does this suggest that Kimantor arrives after Eurmal has slain the Son of the Dark King?  And takes up his mantle? 

I think there's room here to create some variations as needed by a given storyline.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I think that Norinel would have been definitely different from Ernalda at this point - a grieving mother or widow (depending on whether Kimantor was the son, or the OOO himself) rather than the loving wife asleep deep in Asrelia's caves, manifest only through Ginna Jar.

If Kimantor is the son that is killed, does Eurmal do so at Orlanth's bidding to regain an Earth spouse? Or do so begins he thinks it reflects Orlanth's inner desires? Or to spite Orlanth (or Norinel!)?  Many possibilities there.

If the son is the child of Kimantor and Norinel, does Orlanth secretly want to end the relationship of Darkness with Earth and use Eurmal to do the deed?  Or again, Eurmal may do so because he thinks it is what Orlanth wants, much to Orlanth's horror.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Norinel appears to be both Queen of Nochet and Grandmother by this time of her marriage to Kimantor.

I'm not really seeing the Grandmother aspect here at the time of the marriage.  She has two kids with him, so is clearly fertile.

At the time of the departure from Nochet to the Black Palace, she might have given Queenship of Nochet to Delargara or to one of the Survivors, and so makes that journey as Grandmother, bearing the treasures of the city to safety.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Quite possible.  Also possible that Arkat set up one of the Arkati to guard this path to keep Gbaji from following it.

I'm fairly certain that Arkat did not enter the Obsidian Palace - if he had seen the option of becoming a Kitori, he might have gone that way to embrace Darkness, while retaining a human shape part of the time, and that of a Dehori Shadow at others.

On the other hand, his mysterious return to a human shape might have been based on this.

 

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

That is certainly the known/expected story. 

There is another, shorter one which tells us that the Lightbringers were betrayed by the Only Old One. I could see Norinel's hand in that version.

The Nochet grandmothers are obsessed with Kodig as the Bad Man, and they transfer this obsession to the Orlanth cult and to all of Kodig's male descendants. (That means their own sons, btw...)

I think that the war that Rastagar's wife objected to was the Vingkotling summons to the shores of Luathela, in the last stage of the Westfaring. So basically the formation of the Esrolvuli was a rebellion against the Lightbringers' Quest. And I think that that acerbated the Nontraya problem in Nochet quite a lot.

 

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

It's always a bit unclear whether Kimantor is OOO or a son.  Kimantor and Norinel certainly have two children, Delargara and Desdel (girl and boy).  There's no particular indication of either child being slain.

That makes Kimantor the likely victim of Eurmal. Even if this was no permanent death, the insult would be sufficient to send the Lightbringers to the dungeons.

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

The Esrolia book does note:  "In the fortress Lord Kimantor courageously fought his way into the temple of the missing god."  At this point, he becomes Lord Victory Nightbrother.  Does this suggest that Kimantor arrives after Eurmal has slain the Son of the Dark King?  And takes up his mantle? 

The Great Fortress is mentioned as the place where Kimantor's father lived (footnote 74). Another questionmark concerning his identiy with the ruling OOO.

The missing god might as well have been Vestkarthen, the architect of the palace, who used to be chained inside.

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

I think there's room here to create some variations as needed by a given storyline.

Sure - one of the rules of Heroquesting is that a deep quest rarely follows the rote ways of the story.

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

If Kimantor is the son that is killed, does Eurmal do so at Orlanth's bidding to regain an Earth spouse? Or do so begins he thinks it reflects Orlanth's inner desires? Or to spite Orlanth (or Norinel!)?  Many possibilities there.

 

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

If the son is the child of Kimantor and Norinel, does Orlanth secretly want to end the relationship of Darkness with Earth and use Eurmal to do the deed?  Or again, Eurmal may do so because he thinks it is what Orlanth wants, much to Orlanth's horror.

Eurmal might be about to avenge the killing of Rastagar on the Grandmothers.

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

I'm not really seeing the Grandmother aspect here at the time of the marriage.  She has two kids with him, so is clearly fertile.

oossibly Acting Grandmother, aka Ruling Queen of House Norinel. My original impression that the Grandmothers would be Crones of Asrelia or Ty Kora Tek has sort of been replaced by a deep discomfort about the Imarja cult. Basically that's the Earth cult that provide an Earth Queen to the Chaos faction in Gods War.

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

At the time of the departure from Nochet to the Black Palace, she might have given Queenship of Nochet to Delargara or to one of the Survivors, and so makes that journey as Grandmother, bearing the treasures of the city to safety.

Not sure I would overplay that Asrelia function. After all, the OOO is the son of either Asrelia or Esrola (or both).

If Delargara already has taken the mantle of queenship, then her brother might very well be Eurmal's victim.

 

The Seduction of Norinel could of course be one of the more ribald plays in Nochet. Eurmal should be able to cast a likeness of Kimantor onto himself or Orlanth (or possibly all the males Norinel encounters). Take A Midsummer Night's Dream, and turn it up to 11. Garnish with some elements of the cancan scene in Hoffmann's Erzählungen by Jacques Offenbach, no political correctness applied. Siegfried's cloak of invisibility in the interaction with Brunhilde. Merlin's alteration of Uther Pendragon at Tintagel. Zeus in various animal shapes... Niskis as surrogate husband for Orlanth during Orlanth's exile. Carry up on Cleopatra. You know the drill.

 

[jajagappa]

33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is another, shorter one which tells us that the Lightbringers were betrayed by the Only Old One. I could see Norinel's hand in that version.

The Nochet grandmothers are obsessed with Kodig as the Bad Man, and they transfer this obsession to the Orlanth cult and to all of Kodig's male descendants. (That means their own sons, btw...)

They are, though its interesting how the Old Earth faction apparently goes against this tradition (and I'm sure not the first time that's happened - e.g. the Adjustment Wars).

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I think that the war that Rastagar's wife objected to was the Vingkotling summons to the shores of Luathela, in the last stage of the Westfaring. So basically the formation of the Esrolvuli was a rebellion against the Lightbringers' Quest. And I think that that acerbated the Nontraya problem in Nochet quite a lot.

An interesting possibility.  It might also have been wars between the Kodigvari and other descendants of Vingkot (who certainly would like to claim Vingkot's gifts/blood for themselves).

36 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Great Fortress is mentioned as the place where Kimantor's father lived (footnote 74). Another questionmark concerning his identiy with the ruling OOO.

Given that Argan Argar chained Veskarthan/Lodril there, it remains ambiguous.

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Eurmal might be about to avenge the killing of Rastagar on the Grandmothers.

Yes, that would work as well.

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

My original impression that the Grandmothers would be Crones of Asrelia or Ty Kora Tek has sort of been replaced by a deep discomfort about the Imarja cult. Basically that's the Earth cult that provide an Earth Queen to the Chaos faction in Gods War.

I think they are crones of Asrelia/Ty Kora Tek.  I don't know that I've seen evidence that Imarja is the earth cult that is linked to the Chaos faction.  I think you could argue that its whatever land goddess dwelt between Genert's Garden and the Spike, inviting Wakboth to invade (Mavor? Envor? - certainly associated with destroyed lands, but I'm sure other possibilities exist).  Imarja seems to be much more the feminine principle as a whole, not an earth cult.

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If Delargara already has taken the mantle of queenship, then her brother might very well be Eurmal's victim.

That could work well.  Of course, such a line raises a question about the origins of the Desdelaeo house/clan... Perhaps they don't really descend from Desdel after all... 

 

44 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Seduction of Norinel could of course be one of the more ribald plays in Nochet. Eurmal should be able to cast a likeness of Kimantor onto himself or Orlanth (or possibly all the males Norinel encounters). Take A Midsummer Night's Dream, and turn it up to 11. Garnish with some elements of the cancan scene in Hoffmann's Erzählungen by Jacques Offenbach, no political correctness applied. Siegfried's cloak of invisibility in the interaction with Brunhilde. Merlin's alteration of Uther Pendragon at Tintagel. Zeus in various animal shapes... Niskis as surrogate husband for Orlanth during Orlanth's exile. Carry up on Cleopatra. You know the drill.

Yes, that has to be one.  Of course, it might not be one of Hendira's favorites...