Elder Races as PC's?

[TRose]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 3:02 AM, Jon Hunter said:

I'd consider it an interesting RP challenge,

but the needs groups that make sense.

The 'human, dwarf, elf centaur and dragonewt go into pub groups' i cant see ever working.

 I agree a party mix needs to make sense or you will have half the party killing the other half, even if they are all human. A party consisting of a Lunar, an Orlanthi, a Malkioni, and a Waha worshipping shaman would only work if they where heading to wipe out a Thanatar complex and would turn on each other when they where done.

 Argan Argar worshipping Humans and Trolls easily group together . A Wind child and a group of Orlanthi would be OK. Duke Raus has Newtlings on his payroll and they can fight alongside other Zola Fel worshippers with no problem. Biturian Varosh hired Baboons to guard his caravan .

  I have no problem with players playing a non human if they can explain why. But if they want to play an Agimori because they have great stats the answer is NO

 

[David Scott]

On 27/07/2017 at 11:02 AM, Jon Hunter said:

The 'human, dwarf, elf centaur and dragonewt go into pub groups' i cant see ever working.

It sort of happens in Apple Lane - the bandits are a duck, centaur and two types of Dragonewt, now if they went in to the Tin Inn...

[styopa]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

It sort of happens in Apple Lane - the bandits are a duck, centaur and two types of Dragonewt, now if they went in to the Tin Inn...

Who wrote such an obvious disregard for the ethnic purity laws of Dragon Pass?

Clearly, some schmuck who didn't respect or understand how Glorantha REALLY works.

In fact, I think I just decided there's going to be a seething ethnocentric & irredentist movement starting in Duck Point called the QQQ.  

[Yelm's Light]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

It sort of happens in Apple Lane - the bandits are a duck, centaur and two types of Dragonewt, now if they went in to the Tin Inn...

Of course these are all canonical and deadly enemies, right?

[Psullie]

all joking aside, are the concepts of racial stereotypes grotesque broad stokes of prejudice like they are here on Earth? It seems contrary to the whole principle of Glorantha to say that all elves hate dwarves. Sure at any given time a particular group may harbour animosity towards another and with long lived species these grudges can last a long time, but these usually stem from some past slight or insult. 

Apple Lane was my first introduction to Glorantha/RuneQuest and not only was Xarban's gang an eclectic mix but having Pinfeather and Quackjohn on opposite sides clearly stated that sentient beings are free to make their own alliances, a welcome relief from the all Orcs are Chaotic Evil mindset. 

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, Psullie said:

all joking aside, are the concepts of racial stereotypes grotesque broad stokes of prejudice like they are here on Earth? It seems contrary to the whole principle of Glorantha to say that all elves hate dwarves. Sure at any given tie a particular group may harbour animosity towards another and with long lived species these grudges can last a long time, but these usually stem from some past slight or insult.

The Hellwood aldryami probably hate the Lunars more than they hate dwarves, and the elves of Erigia hate Lunars and Char-un with a passion that far exceeds their chance ever to meet a mostali.

The problem is that each of the three main Elder Races has hard-wired responses to encountering the others.

Uz: Yummy elves, and yummy and euphorizing mostali.

Mostali: grown things are raw material, and growth has exceeded all demand of the Maker, so it needs to be cut back to size. And the trolls are ravenous vermin that requires extinction.

Aldryami: Uz and Mostali are vile takers, never mind any reason or absence thereof.

 

 

[Richard S.]

33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Aldryami: Uz and Mostali are vile takers, never mind any reason or absence thereof.

I'm not sure if this is in the canonical Gloranthan but in the old Mongoose books the Assume we're said would be perfectly willing to work alongside Takers as long as they did not upset the balance of life and death. Or something like that, I'd have to check.

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I'm not sure if this is in the canonical Gloranthan but in the old Mongoose books the Assume we're said would be perfectly willing to work alongside Takers as long as they did not upset the balance of life and death. Or something like that, I'd have to check.

I am somewhat sceptical of the canonicity of that book, too - Shannon had the Red Elves as maintaining the balance between Growing and Taking, a later development, whereas the Guide has the Red Elves as the first of the plant-men. There are other theories in that book about the Brown Elves which haven't been corroborated in any other documents.

A lot of Shannon's ideas in the book are logical conclusions that are within the scope of canon.

 

But then, I think the whole concept of "takers" is from Shannon's work on the Aldryami. The ancient twins are Grower and Maker.

[MOB]

9 hours ago, Psullie said:

Apple Lane was my first introduction to Glorantha/RuneQuest and not only was Xarban's gang an eclectic mix but having Pinfeather and Quackjohn on opposite sides clearly stated that sentient beings are free to make their own alliances, a welcome relief from the all Orcs are Chaotic Evil mindset. 

I had that same reaction, all that time ago...

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Psullie said:

all joking aside, are the concepts of racial stereotypes grotesque broad stokes of prejudice like they are here on Earth? It seems contrary to the whole principle of Glorantha to say that all elves hate dwarves. Sure at any given time a particular group may harbour animosity towards another and with long lived species these grudges can last a long time, but these usually stem from some past slight or insult. 

Apple Lane was my first introduction to Glorantha/RuneQuest and not only was Xarban's gang an eclectic mix but having Pinfeather and Quackjohn on opposite sides clearly stated that sentient beings are free to make their own alliances, a welcome relief from the all Orcs are Chaotic Evil mindset. 

One of the things that I think separates "Human" outlooks from the Elder Races is that many (though not all) humans are more versatile in their outlooks, more able to adjust and adapt.  The Elves' Plant-Rune ties, Trolls' Darkness ties, etc...  These "hard-wire" some outlooks, and -- while occasional exceptions exist -- the broad-stroke mutual dislike between Uz/Mostali/Aldryami is parallel to but distinct from the Tolkienesque Dwarven/Elvish mutual dislike

It is in many ways a shame that Greg adopted that outlook in the first place, as it plays strongly to the "just like D&D" trope.

 

[Hteph]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am somewhat sceptical of the canonicity of that book, too - Shannon had the Red Elves as maintaining the balance between Growing and Taking, a later development, whereas the Guide has the Red Elves as the first of the plant-men. There are other theories in that book about the Brown Elves which haven't been corroborated in any other documents.

A lot of Shannon's ideas in the book are logical conclusions that are within the scope of canon.

 

But then, I think the whole concept of "takers" is from Shannon's work on the Aldryami. The ancient twins are Grower and Maker.

I would hesitate to use any Mongoose product as reference as the labeled Gorakkikki as a chaos god.

As for racial cooperation we have the whole Mostali-Flintnail-Pavis-Aldryami sheneigan. However that was performed, it must have included cooperation, othevise the Harmony rune would been compromised.

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, Dr. H. teph said:

I would hesitate to use any Mongoose product as reference as they labeled Gorakkikki as a chaos god.

The chaos label sits somewhat loose for a number of hell-spawned or evil cults (note that these need not overlap, even though few things out of hell are really palatable to surface dweller sensibilities). The Orlanthi accuse the Lunars of being Chaotic. Some certainly are, but a majority of the illuminated Lunars aren't - their exposure to Chaos is about the same as a deep quester on the I Fought We Won quest experiences. (Note that most Heortlings drop out before getting that deep on their initiation quest.)

Plant life has different reactions to insects and fungi. Most trees rely heavily on a symbiosis with soil fungi for gathering up their nutrients, and I am inclined to make this a mystical truth for Gloranthan botanics as well. On the other hand, only flowering plants rely on fertilization through insects (or birds or fruit bats). The rot of humus is a cooperation of all kinds of Darkness effects - fungi, invertebrates, even plant diseases that continue to putrefy the plant cells after the death of the plant. The result is the source of life for the plants, though.

Insects like the bark beetle, caterpillars and other such larval stages are mostly detrimental to their host plants, and so are a great number of fungi. This makes them evil to the aldryami who care about these plants.

 

Gorakiki is also the deity of bees and butterflies, creatures we would associate with sun and fertility, but these critters undergo the maggot phase which is a Darkness existence par excellence.

 

23 minutes ago, Dr. H. teph said:

As for racial cooperation we have the whole Mostali-Flintnail-Pavis-Aldryami shenanigan. However that was performed, it must have included cooperation, otherwise the Harmony rune would been compromised.

The Pavis project was strange indeed, and uses Green Age magics, and re-invokes the Unity that was forged by the fight against the Surface World Chaos. The main protagonists of that project were slain or enslaved by Praxians when Adari was raided, and only the prime product of this research, the young man Pavis, was left to discover more.

A strong enough Harmony influence can calm conflicts even between arch-enemies. No idea if it could get Storm Bull and Wakboth to sit down for negotiations, but then either participant in that conflict is strong in an antithesis of Harmony (Disorder for the bull, Moral Evil and Chaos for the devil).

 

[soltakss]

On 8/8/2017 at 1:04 PM, Dr. H. teph said:

I would hesitate to use any Mongoose product as reference as the labeled Gorakkikki as a chaos god.

They also gave Orlanthi a Common Magic spell that was associated with the Chaos Rune. I use their stuff as interesting guidelines but change what I want.

Edited August 12, 2017 by soltakss

[simonh]

On 08/08/2017 at 7:12 AM, g33k said:

It is in many ways a shame that Greg adopted that outlook in the first place, as it plays strongly to the "just like D&D" trope.

 

He had particular reasons for doing so though. It would have been a terrible shame if he'd compromised his particular artistic vision just to avoid it having anything in common with D&D or Tolkien.

Simon Hibbs

Edited August 18, 2017 by simonh

[g33k]

2 hours ago, simonh said:

He had particular reasons for doing so though. It would have been a terrible shame if he'd compromised his particular artistic vision just to avoid it having anything in common with D&D or Tolkien.

Fair point!

But I can still bemoan the problems with getting Gimli & Legolas out of the heads of Glorantha-n00b's...

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Fair point!

But I can still bemoan the problems with getting Gimli & Legolas out of the heads of Glorantha-n00b's...

 

Those racial hostilities are inherent in the nine worlds of Yggdrasil.

The point is that there are no Khazad or Quendi in Glorantha. There are (clay) Mostali and Vronkali, Mreli, and Embyli instead.

If a Glorantha-noob is Middle-Earth literate, tell him that the aldryami are about human-sized ents. For Noldor, use Brithini or Luatha (if you want to use the Brithini for Numenorans instead - a role also fine for the Jrusteli).

RQ3 Vikings had an aldryami race, too - the Woodwives. Slavic myth has a similar race subservient to or descended from the Leshy, the great forest spirit, and Vikings and Baltic Slavs had a lot of contact and intermarriages. And it had elves, the alfar, which come in two varieties - followers of Freyr from Alfheim, or deified ancient folk (a parallel to the Vingkotling kings and founders).