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Joerg

Nochetanea

25 posts in this topic

Taken out of the Guide to Glorantha discussion thread (Week 6, Mythos) as this is veering far off the original topic of the Lightbringers' Quest:

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

They are, though its interesting how the Old Earth faction apparently goes against this tradition (and I'm sure not the first time that's happened - e.g. the Adjustment Wars).

The Adjustment Wars created a circumstance for some houses to profiteer from other houses' struggle against the Adjustment invaders, without subscribing to the Adjustment goals in the long run. I would dare say that pretty much the same houses now involved with the Red Earth Alliance were the ones cooperating with the Adjustment kings.

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I think they are crones of Asrelia/Ty Kora Tek.  I don't know that I've seen evidence that Imarja is the earth cult that is linked to the Chaos faction.  I think you could argue that its whatever land goddess dwelt between Genert's Garden and the Spike, inviting Wakboth to invade (Mavor? Envor? - certainly associated with destroyed lands, but I'm sure other possibilities exist). 

My impression is that we take the combination of Ernalda and Orlanth to be fairly universal, at least for Genertela. It doesn't matter much in the west. Pamaltela may have different rules due to Pamalt still being around, except for the coasts which have Theyalan influence (if only through God Learner introduction outside of Umathela). No idea whether the Errinoru aldryami have a connection to Ernalda with Orlanth as her primary husband, or as the earth without need for a husband.

I don't see a way for Ernalda or any of her existing land goddesses (including Dorasa) to be married to Chaos. Dorasa's infestation with Chaos (and that of the land goddess of Tork) came from human magics rather than from pre-Compromise divine activities, though.

It might be argued that Thed is Chaotic Earth, and Malia is the female principle of Chaos. The Lunar absorption of Earth mysteries sort of blurs the borders.

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Imarja seems to be much more the feminine principle as a whole, not an earth cult.

That's not quite the message I get, with all that durulz/goose stick going about.

There are possible parallels between Sedenya and Imarja.

I am trying to "date" the arrival of Imarja. The context in Esrolia - Land of the Thousand Goddesses suggests that Nochet was located at a river (possibly river mouth) when the Charter of Nochet was incubated and revealed. Contact with Imarja was limited to the six tribes. Males were present, but not involved in the decision-making, only as helpers (such as citing Lhankor Mhy as the scribe of the Charter, which is slightly conflicting with the notion that the text was already inscribed on the inside of the egg hatched by the Grandmothers).

 

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That could work well.  Of course, such a line raises a question about the origins of the Desdelaeo house/clan... Perhaps they don't really descend from Desdel after all... 

Actually, a group of widows forming a house would work quite well. All it takes is an ambitious woman of a side lineage determined to step out of the shadow of House Norinel.

The twins appear to have been only the start of a string of children, once Norinel overcame her somewhat inexplicable reluctance to accept Kimantor's secrecy.

 

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, that has to be one.  Of course, it might not be one of Hendira's favorites...

Under which rules are these plays organized? Greek theatre had its holy days, but the troupes were sponsored by hoplite class nobility. 

I have no idea about repeat performances - probably not in the same city, and probably not by the same actors touring other cities, although it is conceivable that a hegemonial city like Athens would send a troupe of the annual performance out to its dependant cities as a demonstration of cultural superiority and a gesture of goodwill combined.

The Temple of Donandar is the only big theatre in Nochet, with a capacity of maybe 10,000 spectators if crammed to the last seat or stand, from the look of the Nochet map. It wouldn't be the only place where plays are staged, though - I would guess that each Enfranchised House and all wannabe houses will have private stages for more intimate shows, and some of the guilds might have some, too.

Low entertainers will have adapted those plays, or at least key scenes of these, for street performance, maybe using a tent or performing in a tavern, and use puppets, shadow-plays or similar rather than a full cast of actors. 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Taken out of the Guide to Glorantha discussion thread (Week 6, Mythos) as this is veering far off the original topic of the Lightbringers' Quest

Yes, that did veer off into Nochetanea.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I would dare say that pretty much the same houses now involved with the Red Earth Alliance were the ones cooperating with the Adjustment kings.

That seems quite probable.  The Delaeos 'lands' from which they receive tribute (or attempt to) certainly surround Storm Hill.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I don't see a way for Ernalda or any of her existing land goddesses (including Dorasa) to be married to Chaos.

That's why I suggested those from the destroyed lands.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

It might be argued that Thed is Chaotic Earth, and Malia is the female principle of Chaos.

Might be better argued the other way.  Mallia is the fertile goddess.  Thed an animal mother.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The twins appear to have been only the start of a string of children, once Norinel overcame her somewhat inexplicable reluctance to accept Kimantor's secrecy.

Quite likely.  But perhaps Desdel was the only son?

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Temple of Donandar is the only big theatre in Nochet, with a capacity of maybe 10,000 spectators if crammed to the last seat or stand, from the look of the Nochet map. It wouldn't be the only place where plays are staged, though - I would guess that each Enfranchised House and all wannabe houses will have private stages for more intimate shows, and some of the guilds might have some, too.

There's large open ground over the ruins of Forenes across the water.  Or the fields south and west of the city.  Many of the great squares fill with people camping out for the great religious ceremonies as well.

Most of the 'palaces' of the Enfranchised Houses have large halls.  Likely the Societies of the Cloth have rooms/halls for such, or other guilds as you note.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Low entertainers will have adapted those plays, or at least key scenes of these, for street performance, maybe using a tent or performing in a tavern, and use puppets, shadow-plays or similar rather than a full cast of actors.

Very much so.

And there's no 'police' to say what you can or can't perform.  Whether word gets back to a house that you've performed something and they extract a price for you doing so is another matter.

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5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That seems quite probable.  The Delaeos 'lands' from which they receive tribute (or attempt to) certainly surround Storm Hill.

There appears to be a group of hard-nosed practical houses (or otherwise hereditary political movements) that accept foreign male intruders as a means to harm rival houses, allowing them to rule for a while - even a few generations, like the House of Kodig, or the Hendriki Readjustment lords. Sooner or later they will rise up, slaughter the invaders (and purge their houses of sympathizers), even at the price of devastating conflict inside their own domains. Only the over-kingships of Ezkankekko and Belintar which don't challenge the Grandmothers' dictatorships are tolerated as long as the interference remains tolerable.

The Grandmothers appear to be quite hostile to Arkat, despite rather short exposure to his activities in the Gbaji Wars - much less than the influence of Palangio and Lokamayadon. But then they probably had no problem with Lokamayadon suppressing the shepherds' religion and leaving their own initiatory rites of Urvarna and Demarath intact.

Of course, we don't know anything about these quests and rites - the paragraphs on p.25 under "Imarja and the Eighteen Return" mainly tell us that such a quest happened, not what stations it entailed.

But then we know as little about the Ivarne side of the Heortling initatory rites.

 

Chaos Earth Queens

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That's why I suggested those from the destroyed lands.

Unrecovered lands, pieces that weren't salvaged by the Web of Arachne Solara. The map in Heortling Mythology p.108 shows the extent of annihilation much better than the God Learner Map in the Guide on p.694.

I have some suspicion about Artmali-occupied lands, and possibly parts of Endernef as possible candidates, too. There is a reason why Moon wasn't much present before 1247.

 

Unholy Trio females as Earth and Feminine Principle:

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Might be better argued the other way.  Mallia is the fertile goddess.  Thed an animal mother.

Thed is the ravaged body of Earth, while Malia is the midwife. But the analogy is weak, and they sacrificed most of their former roles in order to enable the birth of Wakboth.

 

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Quite likely.  But perhaps Desdel was the only son?

Possible. Or the only son able to take the three Kitori forms from birth on (rather than through adoption, as the later Kitori did before breeding themselves). The Kitori shapeshifters are only a weak imitation of the demigod abilities of the Only Old One. (Demigod mainly in that he remained active under the proscriptions of the Compromise, rather than bound to the Godtime like e.g. his parents.)

 

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There's large open ground over the ruins of Forenes across the water.  Or the fields south and west of the city.  Many of the great squares fill with people camping out for the great religious ceremonies as well.

I wonder how much of the great squares really is open surface, and how much of it are permanent market stalls (though not permanently operated). Do the Nochet market traders migrate between squares for big market days, or are they mostly enfranchised in one of the markets?

Open Air theatre without rising audience ranks will have extremely limited visibility and audibility. I remember special volume training in my school choir for a gig on an open air stage with slightly raised audience area, in order to remain somewhat audible.

There aren't any speaker towers or 20 foot video screens like in Wacken. Unless Donandar provides some equivalent of this as magic, those open field spectacles work better as processions with motif wagons or palanquins.

 

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Most of the 'palaces' of the Enfranchised Houses have large halls.  Likely the Societies of the Cloth have rooms/halls for such, or other guilds as you note.

How much will such play gigs be social representation, and how much are they part of worship? A similar question goes to dance performances - Roitina ceremonies all are dance performances, right?

 

Street entertainment will be a rather mundane affair, designed to feed the entertainers and to lighten the mood of passers-by. 

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And there's no 'police' to say what you can or can't perform.  Whether word gets back to a house that you've performed something and they extract a price for you doing so is another matter.

Sure, but the question is whether there are designated days in the holy calendars for certain types of plays. Days which ask for ribaldry and disrespect.

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's not quite the message I get, with all that durulz/goose stick going about.

No expert but my emergent take on the Goose Girl / Swan Woman complex is that she reflects the female equivalent of King of Dragon Pass aggregate mastery of the realm down there, possibly as an undocumented survival of something like the archaic "stork mother" they have in the northern lowlands or some local beast/hsunchen culture now lost.

We know the durulz venerate a transcendental goddess of "nature" at the Wild Temple. Maybe Imarja initiates recognize that goddess as their goddess too. In this scenario, I always assumed an orgiastic edge to stork mother (why SurEnslib gets such bad press at home) so this may look like chaos to establishment-minded people. 

Of course cults change so we would need to look at when people pivot into Imarja when the conventional Ernalda complex doesn't give them what they need and when they pivot away. Maybe chaos gets in there at various points but I think her nature has defeated that so far. Also while I like the idea of the Goose Girl (Die Gänsemagd) being autochthonous she might have come from afar . . . perhaps from the east riding an oracular horse named something like Falada. If and when the Feathered Horse Queen ever saw the mysteries in that temple I suspect she'd understand.

The problem of chaotic earth is interesting. If I were them down there I'd look toward the Print and then back to the greatest city in the world and start pondering who krarsht really was once.

stork.png

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

the Societies of the Cloth have rooms/halls for such

Wow, those ladies can drink. 

The really wild performances seem to happen around the big fleece fairs later in the season when the girls are tired and looking for one last hurrah. Not as familiar with the linen parties but they seem a little more settled.

Edited by scott-martin
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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

There appears to be a group of hard-nosed practical houses (or otherwise hereditary political movements) that accept foreign male intruders as a means to harm rival houses, allowing them to rule for a while - even a few generations, like the House of Kodig, or the Hendriki Readjustment lords. Sooner or later they will rise up, slaughter the invaders (and purge their houses of sympathizers), even at the price of devastating conflict inside their own domains.

Makes you wonder what Queen Imarjira may have been up to (or perhaps what Reverend Grandmother Brengala feared she was up to).  Was there a plan to join Esrolia and the House of Sartar?  Was Prince Jarosar lined up to marry a daughter of Imarjira, but she was forced to abdicate before it occurred?

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Of course, we don't know anything about these quests and rites - the paragraphs on p.25 under "Imarja and the Eighteen Return" mainly tell us that such a quest happened, not what stations it entailed.

Likely there were multiple quests to restore the Sleeping Houses.  Houses Urvarnta and Serumthar claim to have followed the Beloved Path to awakening, though they are in fact post-Dawn houses.  Houses Hulta and Loma will have their independent stories.

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3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

No expert but my emergent take on the Goose Girl / Swan Woman complex is that she reflects the female equivalent of King of Dragon Pass aggregate mastery of the realm down there, possibly as an undocumented survival of something like the archaic "stork mother" they have in the northern lowlands or some local beast/hsunchen culture now lost.

For a crackpot theory, Imarja might have been a keet sage approaching the families of Nochet after following the Flow of the Sshorg river (or awash with the Solkathi current) and taking the detour into the Lykos. (I still see the second s around the k in that name as somewhat optional...)

The Stork (or Heron) mother of Suvaria is similar in appearing as a creator goddess, laying the first clutches etc. I think that the Heron Hegemony shown in the God Learner map really is a reference to Suvaria rather than to the southeastern lands of the Lozenge with their Vaybetian islanders.

Early Golden Age Glorantha was full of bird peoples and bird-descended humans. It is almost as if there was a lost Birdman form rune.

Esrolia has a tradition of parakeets at Ezel, too. The keets started the invasion of the land by waters when they angered Togaro, in the distant southeast. The Northeast had the Ratite Empire of bird riders and lots of bird cults, remnants of which are upheld in Rinliddi (the rest of their realm was depopulated by Valind, and conquered by the Horse Nomads along with Rinliddi and Dara Happa, and the remoter parts after Argentium Thri'ile). The Nogatending boat bird people of the Black Eel River may have been a similar such remnant, too. The Seabird Army appears as the foe of the Sofali Diroti of western Genertela.

 

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

We know the durulz venerate a transcendental goddess of "nature" at the Wild Temple.

As one of their many adaptations to local cults. They also worship river gods like Engizi and Zola Fel, and they worship the deities of the land where they can hold on to possession of some of the land, as around Duck Point. They might have been lake dwellers farming on artificial or floating islands like in Lake Tenochtitlan before Delecti ruined their habitat.

The Lady of the Wild aka Tara appears in the Orlanthi myths, too. Varanorlanth chases her, then Ironhoof. Tara appears to be both a daughter of Kero Fin and an aspect of Arachne Solara. (She also shares many traits with Orogeria.)

The megalithic circle of Wild Temple predates Vingkotling settlement (the Sedenorvuli) in the neighborhood. We have no clues to their architects - as usual, the Gold Wheel Dancers are a convenient suspect (also for the Feldichi remains in Dorastor), or a similar group of unrelated entities of likewise archaic form and proportion. (The Grotaron are another such improbable species.)

In the reborn world, the goddess contacted there is Arachne Solara. We have no idea which deity or pantheon was revered or contacted there before the establishment of the Sedenorvuli, and by whom.

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Maybe Imarja initiates recognize that goddess as their goddess too. In this scenario, I always assumed an orgiastic edge to stork mother (why SurEnslib gets such bad press at home) so this may look like chaos to establishment-minded people.

SurEnslib doesn't get worse press than e.g. Naveria. Unlike Biselenslib, she remains unconquered by the Green City until the Greater Darkness. Or(g)iastic rites aren't limited to Suvaria, other peasant rites of Peloria are as bad, they just lack the distinction of being picked up by an oversized beak and being swallowed.

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Of course cults change so we would need to look at when people pivot into Imarja when the conventional Ernalda complex doesn't give them what they need and when they pivot away. Maybe chaos gets in there at various points but I think her nature has defeated that so far.

The Imarja myths (apart from the Kalevala-like Creation myth) all involve destruction, starting with the hatching of the egg that spells out the Charter of Nochet. The wyter of Nochet (and surrounding lands) is born (or reborn), and its shell provides the instructions in the prophetic script that provides layers upon layers of implicable meanings.

Imarja undergoes various cycles of utuma through the agency of males, always reappearing with new insights that she teaches to her folk. (That's how she is similar to Sedenya, whose latest such experience as Rufelza has given us that nice phasing orb in the northwestern sky).

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Also while I like the idea of the Goose Girl (Die Gänsemagd) being autochthonous she might have come from afar . . . perhaps from the east riding an oracular horse named something like Falada. If and when the Feathered Horse Queen ever saw the mysteries in that temple I suspect she'd understand.

Hmm. I fail to see how to mix geese and horses in Glorantha. The closest I get is the connection between Galanin and the Loon among the First Four Companions. Western horses are a different concept, and those of the north and northeast are either former hippogriffs or otherwise solar chariot steeds (from a period of mythic reality that had the sun stationary in the sky... yeah. Such a sun god needs a chariot...).

Magasta's chariot horses with their sea connection might be a way. They might even fit my crackpot keet idea above. Another watery horse is the River Horse among the Water Spirits of Nomad Gods.

Then there is the enigmatic shell horse, which has the function as a messenger - close enough to a speaking or oracular horse. Again, a goose connection is hard to rationalize.

 

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The problem of chaotic earth is interesting. If I were them down there I'd look toward the Print and then back to the greatest city in the world and start pondering who krarsht really was once.

I usually place Krarsht with the Predark demons overcome by Umath - Chaos intruders that defy the chronology of the great Chaos intrusion. But then I am convinced that Yelm's Golden Age was only the last such cycle before Death entered the world and interrupted those cycles of Elemental rulers of the world. There is that snippet about Yelm Brighteye having to face Basko, Molandro and Jokbazi before ascending to emperorhood in the Jonstown Compendium excerpts in RuneQuest (2) Companion. And Entekosiad suggests that Brighteye wrestled guardianship of the Universe from a precursor of Sedenya.

But let's play along with this for a bit. Lodril's descent into the earth and his "wrestling" there (resulting in the brass alloy) sort of predates the Gods War by more than the destruction of Umath. The reprise of this myth is when an unnamed god picks up Lodril's/Veskarthan's spear in the aftermath of the Footprint/Foulblood incident, and releases the volcano god upon impact. (IMO the creation of the Obsidian Volcano which later (or possibly then) was beheaded by Argan Argar, who then enslaved the volcano god to raise the Obsidian Palace.) Argan Argar as the spear god might be a good candidate for this myth (in case anyone is unfamiliar with this myth, Guide p.234).

What is the source of the Foulblood fertility? My guess is the blood of Larnste as the ultimate agent of change, way more potent than quicksilver. The poison of the stamped creature just corrupts the change.

Orlanth counters this change using the volcanic ejecta and stasis (where in the world did Orlanth get this from?), creating the Stone Forest. (To be honest, this is a feat way outside of Orlanth's core capacity. Blowing the ejecta there, no problem. Plastering them in place with thunderous rainfalls, check. Altering the forest so that it becomes immune to the rampant foul change, anything but his field of competence. Mostali aid might explain this, but remains unmentioned. Amazingly enough, there are few if any stories about Orlanth confronting the mostali. Vingkot and his successors  fending off mostali constructs, plenty, but not big O himself.

Neither Ernalda nor any other earth goddess gets mentioned in this myth of cooperation (if coincidental or grudging). And that when this petrification magic sounds halfway up the competence of Earth. Ho hum.

So, with Earth absent from the main actors, taking the role of the downtrodden intruder is possible.

I wonder where in Ezel this goddess can be found. There ought to be some dark and twisted cave...

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15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wonder where in Ezel this goddess can be found. There ought to be some dark and twisted cave...

As long as not chaotic, then in the Temple of the Multitudes, dedicated to “All the gods and goddesses.” This includes enemy gods, for propitiatory worship.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Wow, those ladies can drink.

What is beer but something infused with the life of the earth?  Without the grain, you'd just have water.

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18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

For a crackpot theory, Imarja might have been a keet sage approaching the families of Nochet after following the Flow of the Sshorg river (or awash with the Solkathi current) and taking the detour into the Lykos.

Or a series of mystic keets who keep appearing on Kena Hill to reveal the stupidity of humans and offer paths (There's Always Another Way) to correct it.  Their teachings are the mystic, divine principle called Imarja.

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10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

What is beer but something infused with the life of the earth?  Without the grain, you'd just have water.

!! They have a weird call-and-response to that one they love shouting at me: what is cloth but time you can see? Without the knots we'd all go naked.

I have no idea what they get up to after I go to bed. More swan knighting later when I digest.

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22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Makes you wonder what Queen Imarjira may have been up to (or perhaps what Reverend Grandmother Brengala feared she was up to).  Was there a plan to join Esrolia and the House of Sartar?  Was Prince Jarosar lined up to marry a daughter of Imarjira, but she was forced to abdicate before it occurred?

Offering peace and admitting a fault of the Nochet/Esrolian customs? The horror!

 

 

22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Likely there were multiple quests to restore the Sleeping Houses.  Houses Urvarnta and Serumthar claim to have followed the Beloved Path to awakening, though they are in fact post-Dawn houses.  Houses Hulta and Loma will have their independent stories.

Hmm. The quest is said to have taken place at the end of the Silver Age. Urvana was the female quester, and Serumtha was the female questee. (The gender of the other two questers isn't quite clear - my first assumption was that they were female, then I looked at the names and thought they fitted the male Heortling name pattern. But then Gelstarn ends like Isbarn. Still undecided.) 

Quote

once awakened these Grandmothers brought the two together again

So the two questers were Grandmothers? Or they became Grandmothers? Or Urvana and Serumtha were the (future) Grandmothers?

Both may have greeted the Dawn before turning into the founding grandmothers of their respective houses. No problem there.

Quote

Now the quests of Urvarna and Demarath provide the structure for the initiation myths for Esrolian people. After they become adults, they are qualified to undergo the rites to learn the powers of the gods.

To me this sounds like a fairly ubiquitious rite. I wouldn't doubt that each house has their own secrets about stations and alternative path once the questers have entered the Great Stone.

Quote

transformed the Great Stone to be the Golden Egg that rose into the sky and ended the Darkness

The Grandmothers and Imarja claim that the Dawn resulted from their efforts.

Yeah. Sure. It's not like Ernalda participates in the Ritual of the Net. Never mind her lover/husband. But with "We slept/hid, they won" (including their protector Kimantor) there is little that they could have contributed, so they need to glorify what little they achieved beyond all proportions.

Yes, every great event in Glorantha is a confluence of activities by many actors and players, but not all activities have the same weight. Overall, I see the activities of Imarja as counter-productive for the whole of Glorantha, focussed on the benefit of Nochet in the first place and Esrolia in the second over all other interests.

 

This Esrolian initiation has quite a few interesting implications.

1. These rites can only be undergone by people who have received their adulthood initiation, but not yet their religious initiation.

2. The questers need to be couples, even if married only for this purpose. That too implies a previous adulthood. (Same sex couples are an option, I think.)

3. The questers get separated during their descent, and each is subjected to individual trials to find their complimentary questee.

The questers return with the secret how to awaken the sleepers/hidden houses, an activity that probably is required in the Sacred Time rites.

 

21 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Or a series of mystic keets who keep appearing on Kena Hill to reveal the stupidity of humans and offer paths (There's Always Another Way) to correct it.  Their teachings are the mystic, divine principle called Imarja.

Another way of telling the story, yes. Note that accomplished mystics don't have to experience age, but they might as well undergo a cycle of re-incarnation.

 

I like the possibility that the Grandmothers of Nochet are prey to a Durulz plot for manipulating the humans of Kethaela. They might mistake the name for a variation of Keetela.

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59 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Urvana was the female quester, and Serumtha was the female questee. (The gender of the other two questers isn't quite clear - my first assumption was that they were female, then I looked at the names and thought they fitted the male Heortling name pattern. But then Gelstarn ends like Isbarn. Still undecided.) 

The initiation quest for men and women in Nochet is based on their passage.  Urvarna and Demarath are girl and boy who set off together.  There's an opportunity for them to stay together and perhaps not mature, but if they go further, they will find what they truly seek.  Urvarna finds Gelstarn, the Beloved, who is her male counterpart.  Demarath finds Serumthar, the Lover, who is his female counterpart.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Or Urvana and Serumtha were the (future) Grandmothers?

I believe this is the correct interpretation.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Both may have greeted the Dawn before turning into the founding grandmothers of their respective houses. No problem there.

That is my thought.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I wouldn't doubt that each house has their own secrets about stations and alternative path once the questers have entered the Great Stone.

Because there were more Houses to find and Awaken.  So the quest forms both a framework for initiation and the ancestral stories for those Houses.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

But with "We slept/hid, they won" (including their protector Kimantor) there is little that they could have contributed, so they need to glorify what little they achieved beyond all proportions.

Yep.  They would have stories as to how they kept certain treasures 'safe' (i.e. they knew how to find them again without having to go to Asrelia's Cavern).  Maybe including how to make a plow, how to plant seeds, how to call the rains, etc.  Each a piece of how to restore civilization.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

1. These rites can only be undergone by people who have received their adulthood initiation, but not yet their religious initiation.

Unclear, but possible.  Or they occur simultaneously.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

2. The questers need to be couples, even if married only for this purpose. That too implies a previous adulthood. (Same sex couples are an option, I think.)

Yes, they go as pairs.  Perhaps there is a 'marriage rite' that is part of it.  I think same sex option is valid.  If you're the odd person out in a given year in village or city, you can either 1) go elsewhere for your rite (hoping to find another odd person out), or 2) wait until next year.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

3. The questers get separated during their descent, and each is subjected to individual trials to find their complimentary questee.

The questers return with the secret how to awaken the sleepers/hidden houses, an activity that probably is required in the Sacred Time rites.

Yes, and Yes.

 

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On 06/08/2017 at 2:46 PM, Joerg said:

 

I wonder how much of the great squares really is open surface, and how much of it are permanent market stalls (though not permanently operated). Do the Nochet market traders migrate between squares for big market days, or are they mostly enfranchised in one of the markets?

Just a thought...

Even in the XVIIIth century Venice, great squares were (partly) used for farming/horticulture - they are called "campo" for a reason.

 

Wouldn't it make perfect sense in Esrolia, to dedicate some urban spaces (squared-shaped as the Earth) to agricultural activities?

The blessing of the 10,000 Goddesses is ever-pervasive... Bless them all for their bounty!

:-)

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On 8/9/2017 at 0:43 PM, Patrick said:

Wouldn't it make perfect sense in Esrolia, to dedicate some urban spaces (squared-shaped as the Earth) to agricultural activities?

Oh yes, there are plenty of both public and private urban spaces for at least symbolic agriculture.  Most clan/house halls are built around a central court, typically of earth.  Most neighborhoods have some common grounds with their flocks of geese.

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Oh yes, there are plenty of both public and private urban spaces for at least symbolic agriculture.  Most clan/house halls are built around a central court, typically of earth.  Most neighborhoods have some common grounds with their flocks of geese.

Also, pigs are a common sight in the streets of Nochet, acting as the unofficial garbage collectors. They do leave some, let's say, fertilizing agent behind which might be collected by the Nochet equivalent of stickpickers, whether for vegetable plots or for tanning. Likewise the geese tend to leave lots of greenish fertilizer underfoot.

Given the popularity of geese, I would expect ponds in Nochet, possibly artificial ones like in a Persian Garden. Because of said fertilizing remains, those ponds aren't good for drinking water, but may be good fish ponds or frog ponds in addition. Water tubers also can serve as supplementary vegetables.

Talking about bodies of waters, I read your heroquest campaign over on rpggeek, and I wonder how deep below or how high aboveground the aqueducts of Nochet would be. From the map it looks as if the water is simply branched off the Lyksos River less than a mile or two upriver, and directed into the city through open canals outside of the city and through mostly underground, wide ducts or canals towards the cisterns.

My interest in this topic is partially of a professional nature, too, as my work also includes inspection of and maintenance advice for water installations (besides measurements of water quality).

Given the speciality of your campaign's House Lorionaeo, I guess you will have researched a bit about Vitruvius' De Archetectura and Frontinus' De Aquaeductu

It isn't entirely clear whether the water is simply pouring into the cisterns, or whether it is lifted up into above-ground reservoirs. From your description of the duty to carry or cart water from the cistern to the Temple of Delainea, I assume that there is no further system of water distribution to a more spread out infrastructure.

If I had to design such a system, I would feed the cisterns by lifting water from basins the aqueducts lead through, in order to control whether or not to add water to the cisterns. Depending on the technological sophistication of Nochet waterworks, there could be huge, current-driven wheels dunking amphorae into these basins and emptying them somewhat higher into the cisterns - the Roman waterworks of London had such devices.

I don't expect a network similar to that of Augusta Vindelicorum (aka Augsburg, link in German language but with a map) which has also plenty of current-driven paddle wheels powering its various industries like fullers, millers or (wood) turners (who could use the force with little if any translation, probably using leather belt transmission).

I did a short research about the history of the waterways feeding Nochet. Sestarto and Panaxles obviously constructed their aqueducts in the Silver Age (neither of them lived to see the Dawn, AFAIK). The branched distribution most likely was established already for Nochet as of Harmast's Time, but much of that would have suffered greatly from the Devastation of the Vent (which also toppled significant parts of the cyclopean city walls).

Modern Nochet is less than forty years old as of 1621. The western parts of the city had to be reclaimed from the expanding sprawl of the Antones Estate - the map of Nochet in 1200 probably was pretty much accurate for Nochet in much of Belintar's time, too. Much of the city grounds is given to agricultural use, which means that the rubble from the Devastation has been cleared away or recycled, and few if any ruins from the Imperial Age survived, or else their foundations served as garden walls. (The Lhankor Mhy temple probably didn't disappear, but parts of it may have been reduced to rubble.)

Most of the infrastructure of Nochet is either restored pre-Devastation basements, tunnels and foundations, or rather recently built. This goes pretty much for its aqueduct and drainage system, too. The open canals outside of the city probably were easily kept in shape, and the core city would have relied on the Virtuous Waters cistern or its precedessors for most of the time of the Closing, and allowing the overspill from the river to flush the cloakas.

From what I know about Harappa, the sewers are likely to start as covered canals along the main road (as in this excavation photo of Mohenjo Daro), mainly providing rainwater removal. Much like London's sewers in Terry Pratchett's Dodger, the ablutions and manure of men and beasts probably would have been collected and applied to farming, or left in the mud of the unkempt parts of the city for periodical cleansing commands in preparation of festivals (or cleaning up after them - Woodstock, Wacken or the Festival of Spears probably all share a very special soil mixture where there are no paved or drained roads).

The roadside canals may very well drain into sea-level tunnels exiting among the islands southeast of the city.

 

The Darkness Age map of Nochet probably gives us the best impression of elevations in Nochet. The aqueducts crossing the old river bed probably are elevated canals rather than underground ones.

The river level must have risen significantly after Belintar drained the waters of Creek-Stream River into the Lyksos bed. (It looks like you have a corresponding event in your house history questionnaire, the building of the river dike.) This will have required alterations to the aqueduct inlets on the river. The new start for the city under Queen Valira may have given occasion to upgrade the intakes to a higher level, avoiding problems with cloaka seeping into underground freshwater leads.

 

When discussing underground construction, there is always the question of the underlying geology. Given the proximity to the Shadow Plateau and the Vent, I would assume that Nochet and much of Esrolia will have tuff in its underbelly, a fairly easy to mine and tunnel rock made from deposits of volcanic ash. Above that, you would find fluvial sediments from riverine flood events and glacial-era loess soil carried here by the winds. And yes, that's bringing three of the best varieties of quality soil into a single place - there is a reason why small Esrolia can support such an enormous population. Much, if not all of that is of course the result of Esrola's or Ketha's marriages or marriage contests.

Riverine silt and glacial clay (in North Esrolia) will be at the heart of Esrolian pottery and brick making. The fuel for burning the bricks probably is shipped in as charcoal from the outskirts of tastolar forest, carried on rafts made of construction lumber for the shipwrights and architects.

Nochet will most likely have used quarries and forests in the Skyreach foothills for its reconstruction and expansion which may have begun by Queen (then Grandmother) Bruvala, but which exploded under Queen Valinyr as the Closing was lifted.

The presence of tuff opens the way for opus caementicium aka Roman concrete, a technology which might have been imported by the God Learners or even earlier by the Waertagi (bringing in expertise from Sog City for construction of their piers), but which could have found its application in the waterworks of the city. Tuff also enables the establishment of underground tunnel warrens and artificial caves in the Antones Estates.

Speaking of the Antones Estates - even if these are lying on a higher elevation than most of Nochet, that area is as much an urban sprawl as is the city itself, and it needs a well-maintained sewer system for rainwater unless you want to find your ancestral mummies visiting you and your house all soggy and moldy on ancestors' day.

I wonder how many permanent living residents the Antones Estates sport - sewer maintenance, guards, sweepers, toshers, ratters, ghoul hunters and grave swappers (like grave robbers, but respectfully replacing valuable gifts in ancient graves by cheap and symbolic replica in avoidance of curses).

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Questions about Nochet Urban Renewal

Nochet around 1200 S.T. probably was at its all time low. Dragon Pass was still forbidden, so the river trade with the north was a minor factor even in Karse on the far side of the Shadow Plateau. Belintar's victory over Ezkankekko re-directed the Creekstream River from Karse to Nochet, at first without any impact on the city.

By 1400 S.T. the fact that Dragon Pass was open again for trade did affect Nochet and even Karse. Durulz boaters provided goods by the riverine route, bypassing Grazer territory. Around the same time, the Grazers became both a trade opportunity and a threat to the North March. People from the North March relocated southward, and the walls of Nochet would provide a measure of safety the open border at the Crossline could not offer any more.

I wonder whether there is a group of North March refugees maintaining something like a subculture inside Nochet. A group of New or Immigrant houses to Nochet.

@jajagappaI suppose this could have become a theme in your game if your party's house had chosen not to remain in Nochet after the Devastation of the Vent. What scenarios and time frames for a return to Nochet did you have in mind?

- fleeing from Grazer aggression

- fleeing from Caladran aggression in southern Esrolia

- fleeing from increasing Ditali and Solanthi pressure

- return from Rhigos after the Opening

- returning as a minor House after being exiled from an Enfranchised House

 

The walls of modern Nochet probably are the result of Belintar taking an interest in this most ancient and recently most populous of his cities. The 1200 S.T. map shows the bastions of Kimantor towards the Blackmaw in ruins, with the Antones Estates spilling over right up to the former river-bed (as shown in the Darkness Era map). Kimantor's Walls appear to have disappeared without leaving much of a trace already in the Dawn Age. If they were constructed from chalceous rock, they might have suffered the same fate as the majority of the gallic wall of the oppidum of Manching which were calcified for fertilizer in the late Roman period, or used as quarries for the Silver Age reconstruction or for the Antones Estates.

The Citadel of Lord Victory Nightbrother which formed an urban center in Harmast's Era appears dismantled and abandoned after the Devastation of the Vent, with the Antones Estates claiming their area. Reversing that intrusion of the necropolis into the city of the living must have been a major upheaval in the Third Age history of Nochet, and would have coincided with the reconstruction of the city walls of Harmast's era (all of which are from the Silver Age or earlier).

So, when did this reversal of Necropolis extension into Walled Nochet begin? Did Belintar rebuild the old walls of Nochet to prove himself to the Charter of Nochet? We know that he did summon Silver Age heroes to prove his claim on sovereignty, so why not have him set Panaxles and Sestarto (or their hero cults) at rebuilding the Nochet fortifications of old? Other than Belintar's influence, I don't see who could have made the dead relocate to locations outside of the Nochet Walls. After all, these dead will take an active voice when decisions about their whereabouts are made.

The presence of oversized walls in Bruvala's era would have given some small encouragement for the city to be reclaimed from the agricultural use that followed the Devastation of the Vent. It would also stretch the demand of ginormous amounts of bulding materials over several centuries rather than mere 23 years between the Opening of the Seas and the Building Wall Battle, and 15 years since that.

The presence of far too big walled grounds would also have led to earlier construction of features like the seats of the Enfranchised Houses, the Nolerian Baths or the scholars' town around the Great Library.

 

I wonder about expat communities in Nochet even prior to the Opening. Phargentes' victory over Palashee Longaxe could have sent Tarshites into exile beyond the Wintertop Tribes, establishing a Hall and/or gangs in the city. Likewise, shipbuilders from Karse might relocate to Nochet now the lumber from Dragon Pass becomes available in addition to that of the Troll Woods.

Orlanthi communities in Nochet: They cannot be all Sartarite, even though Sartarite refugees or branch clans possibly make up the majority. When and where did these settle, and how much resistance can chauvinistic houses make efficient against this influx of raw masculinity?

 

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Also, pigs are a common sight in the streets of Nochet, acting as the unofficial garbage collectors.

Along with the trollkin.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

They do leave some, let's say, fertilizing agent behind which might be collected by the Nochet equivalent of stickpickers, whether for vegetable plots or for tanning. Likewise the geese tend to leave lots of greenish fertilizer underfoot.

The Temple of Black Esrola makes good use of such to enrich the farm land nearby too.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

From the map it looks as if the water is simply branched off the Lyksos River less than a mile or two upriver, and directed into the city through open canals outside of the city and through mostly underground, wide ducts or canals towards the cisterns.

Yes, they do branch off the Lyksos and run mostly aboveground until close to the city, then underground.  I do have an underground map of the series of connections between the cisterns as well (and also the sewers which receive both outflow from the cisterns/baths and their own branch lines)

 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

If I had to design such a system, I would feed the cisterns by lifting water from basins the aqueducts lead through, in order to control whether or not to add water to the cisterns. Depending on the technological sophistication of Nochet waterworks, there could be huge, current-driven wheels dunking amphorae into these basins and emptying them somewhat higher into the cisterns

I haven't explored that aspect in enough detail, but I think the cisterns are large enough to support such an approach.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

I did a short research about the history of the waterways feeding Nochet. Sestarto and Panaxles obviously constructed their aqueducts in the Silver Age (neither of them lived to see the Dawn, AFAIK). The branched distribution most likely was established already for Nochet as of Harmast's Time, but much of that would have suffered greatly from the Devastation of the Vent (which also toppled significant parts of the cyclopean city walls).

Yes, those statements are correct IMO.

Belintar of course does the work of resurrecting and rebuilding the system leading to the repopulation of neighborhoods outside the Sacred City (and within Belintar's Walls).

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Much of the city grounds is given to agricultural use, which means that the rubble from the Devastation has been cleared away or recycled, and few if any ruins from the Imperial Age survived

Correct.  And much rubble recycled into new homes (sometimes built on old foundations, sometimes expanded beyond - hence the less than optimal 'squares' of the houses).

[Some quick responses - will respond to more as I have a chance.]

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I have returned to take a closer look at Nochet because it is the setting for my work in progress about the burial of an exiled member of House Norinel in her ancestral family tomb despite being persona non grata.

Discussing the waterways in and out of Nochet and out of the Antones Estates creates an alternative route which might allow bypassing the official guards (but will instead create lots of contact with the underbelly of the city inhabiting the waterways). I might even wish to loan some of your players' characters' contacts for this kind of approach.

 

Having studied your extensive campaign background, I compared it with background info from my own adventuring in Karse.

The character's background is that of a captain's brat whose family followed the captain to various stations, including a "preschool" childhood in the Dormali barracks/quarters of the City of Wonders, semi-orphaned life in Seapolis when the captain did not return from the Kralorelan expedition and an early assignment for an apprenticehood with a maternal uncle in Karse, where the character became involved in the ethnically segregated children's street gangs, which led to automatic contacts with that city's illegal underbelly as both the character and his childhood mates, rivals and foes grew up, and a new age group brought new contacts and mentors.

I used Jenell Jacquay's Central Casting supplement for adding this background information to a RuneQuest character. The Street Gang theme inherited from "Welcome to New Pavis" and this friends/rivals/foes contacts scheme came naturally in order to explain the eclectic mix of skills and associations of the character.

Such a street gang and probably dock rat background would be less likely for a good Esrolian child of a House or Hall, but being a good child isn't exactly the stuff a future adventurer is made of.

 

The new RuneQuest Glorantha character creation adds details what your father/grandfather did in the great events leading up to the Now of the game. Creating a set of lesser local events - possibly drawn from the Regional Activity Table or an urban variant thereof - a character can have not just kinsfolk but also friends and acquaintances from other houses/guilds/tribes e.g. from the militia file or such youth gangs having undergone significant experiences in such recent events.

"In a knife fight between the Sharks and the Jets (astonishingly appropriate gang names for Pelaskites and Adjustment Hendriki) two of your childhood gang members went down - one dead, the other maimed. You have been pumped for <information about certain folk in the Jets/a modest contribution to help the cause of your landsmen>."

Such a situation could even affect a (mostly) law-abiding citizen, and even more so the kind of citizen who keeps contacts into less savory corners of society.

 

Conflicting duties (to your kin, bloodline, clan, tribe, ethnicity) and other influences (patrons, dependants, allies) are the source of drama both in popular entertainment and in ancient myths and heroic poems like the Hildebrandlied.

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13 hours ago, Joerg said:

I used Jenell Jacquay's Central Casting supplement for adding this background information to a RuneQuest character.

One of my favorite old works!  Like the old RQ Cities book too.

 

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Discussing the waterways in and out of Nochet and out of the Antones Estates creates an alternative route which might allow bypassing the official guards (but will instead create lots of contact with the underbelly of the city inhabiting the waterways). I might even wish to loan some of your players' characters' contacts for this kind of approach.

Naturally the aqueducts have bronze grill-type gates to let water in and keep people, animals, and large debris out.  And likely have other magical wardings.  Of course there are passageways under the docks and the sewer outflows (particularly down in Backside) do not have such gates.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Such a street gang and probably dock rat background would be less likely for a good Esrolian child of a House or Hall, but being a good child isn't exactly the stuff a future adventurer is made of.

Well, maybe not for an Enfranchised House, but there are lots of client houses who are very 'turf' conscious and closely guard the privileges of their house and neighborhood.  The worst area for such is between Green Rest in Tershis and Northside in Sarli.  Izork's Cross is the most notorious for street gangs to fight over.  The rivalry between House Petralaeo and the Black Crab clan is already strong.

Btw, one fact about Sarli - it's cisterns are not connected to the river, but are large catchments for rain (and water coming down from Storm Hill).  Most houses in Sarli also keep rain barrels and small cisterns in the event of drought, but don't have the capacity that the large aqueduct/cistern system has.

 

NochetRiverEdge.JPG

Edited by jajagappa
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20 hours ago, Joerg said:

Riverine silt and glacial clay (in North Esrolia) will be at the heart of Esrolian pottery and brick making. The fuel for burning the bricks probably is shipped in as charcoal from the outskirts of tastolar forest, carried on rafts made of construction lumber for the shipwrights and architects.

Nochet will most likely have used quarries and forests in the Skyreach foothills for its reconstruction and expansion which may have begun by Queen (then Grandmother) Bruvala, but which exploded under Queen Valinyr as the Closing was lifted.

There's also extensive clay pits south of the city in Meldektown. 

You're correct that charcoal is shipped in.  I think a lot comes down from the North March from around Arkat's Hold, as does construction timber.  Those get offloaded largely in the Backwater Port to avoid lowering/raising the Chain.

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

If I had to design such a system, I would feed the cisterns by lifting water from basins the aqueducts lead through, in order to control whether or not to add water to the cisterns. Depending on the technological sophistication of Nochet waterworks, there could be huge, current-driven wheels dunking amphorae into these basins and emptying them somewhat higher into the cisterns - the Roman waterworks of London had such devices.

I do like this idea a lot, and allows for some interesting/useful approaches to water storage at the cisterns.  Sounds like something they may have gained from the dwarfs.

 

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Darkness Age map of Nochet probably gives us the best impression of elevations in Nochet. The aqueducts crossing the old river bed probably are elevated canals rather than underground ones.

Yes, I drew on that map to figure out which areas were more likely elevated/lower.  Generally, Panaxles' Canal (the more southern of the two which come in from the west) follows part of the old southern river bed (which has been largely filled in due to the 7 tsunamis and Vent's ash flow) rather than crossing it.  The lowest part though (called the Trough), marks the main sewer line heading out of the city.  Aboveground, that is the path of the Way of the Pillars.

 

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

Speaking of the Antones Estates - even if these are lying on a higher elevation than most of Nochet, that area is as much an urban sprawl as is the city itself, and it needs a well-maintained sewer system for rainwater unless you want to find your ancestral mummies visiting you and your house all soggy and moldy on ancestors' day.

I wonder how many permanent living residents the Antones Estates sport - sewer maintenance, guards, sweepers, toshers, ratters, ghoul hunters and grave swappers (like grave robbers, but respectfully replacing valuable gifts in ancient graves by cheap and symbolic replica in avoidance of curses).

I think very few permanent residents in the Antones Estate itself aside from those of the Cult of Antones (and of course Ty Kora Tek's temple).  I think most working there live in the Deresagar neighborhood.

Love the ghoul hunter and grave swapper ideas! 

I hadn't really thought about sewers in the Antones Estate, but yes, they have to be there!  There's got to be a scenario episode there with your ancestor complaining about you not keeping their 'house' dry.

I generally use images from the Etruscan site of Cerveteri for my conception of the Antones Estate.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Nochet around 1200 S.T. probably was at its all time low. Dragon Pass was still forbidden, so the river trade with the north was a minor factor even in Karse on the far side of the Shadow Plateau. Belintar's victory over Ezkankekko re-directed the Creekstream River from Karse to Nochet, at first without any impact on the city.

1200 ST will be around the low point.  Post-cataclysm, post-Adjustment Wars.  Some trade with the Shadow Plateau and Karse.  But it's a period with very rich fertile soils.  Probably has doubled in population by 1300 ST just prior to Belintar's arrival.

These are my approximate dates for the Reclamation of Tershis.  Lots of activity encouraged by Belintar (along with aqueduct and sewer restoration).  There's a gap in activity during the period of Rhigos' domination of trade until the ascent of Queen Bruvala.

1330-1340

  • New temple to Lyksos upriver
  • Lyksos’ Finger reclaimed
  • Belintar’s Wall raised with new gates

1340-1350

  • Forenes and Poverri’s Seat raised
  • Chain Towers built and the Chain placed across Lyksos
  • Little Embankment constructed

1375-1390

  • Back of the Chain filled in
  • Serzengala’s Dike made
  • Redweave Run recovered
  • Old wall taken down
  • The Twisting Causeway built

1397-1400

  • Lyksos makes the New Finger
  • Brolarant’s Flood opens Lyksos’ Mouth
  • Storm Wall resurrected

1460-1470

  • Goosewalk filled in
  • Tershis marsh raised and dried
15 hours ago, Joerg said:

By 1400 S.T. the fact that Dragon Pass was open again for trade did affect Nochet and even Karse. Durulz boaters provided goods by the riverine route, bypassing Grazer territory. Around the same time, the Grazers became both a trade opportunity and a threat to the North March. People from the North March relocated southward, and the walls of Nochet would provide a measure of safety the open border at the Crossline could not offer any more.

I wonder whether there is a group of North March refugees maintaining something like a subculture inside Nochet. A group of New or Immigrant houses to Nochet.

Some useful thoughts on the arrival of migrants/refugees in this period.  I'm sure these would have settled in Sarli around the Grace Temple.  Largely subsumed into subsequent Heortling refugee hordes, but I like the idea that some may have other older traditions.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

What scenarios and time frames for a return to Nochet did you have in mind?

Hadn't overly thought about that line.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

- fleeing from Grazer aggression

- fleeing from Caladran aggression in southern Esrolia

- fleeing from increasing Ditali and Solanthi pressure

- return from Rhigos after the Opening

- returning as a minor House after being exiled from an Enfranchised House

All of these certainly work.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, when did this reversal of Necropolis extension into Walled Nochet begin? Did Belintar rebuild the old walls of Nochet to prove himself to the Charter of Nochet? We know that he did summon Silver Age heroes to prove his claim on sovereignty, so why not have him set Panaxles and Sestarto (or their hero cults) at rebuilding the Nochet fortifications of old? Other than Belintar's influence, I don't see who could have made the dead relocate to locations outside of the Nochet Walls. After all, these dead will take an active voice when decisions about their whereabouts are made.

Yes, Belintar rebuilt the walls.

Love the idea that he summoned Panaxles and Sestarto to do the rebuilding.  The Great Rivalry revived!  Some lovely conflicts inherent there.  Disputes over which aqueduct is better; debates over key projects such as the Walls or revitalized temples; etc.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

The presence of oversized walls in Bruvala's era would have given some small encouragement for the city to be reclaimed from the agricultural use that followed the Devastation of the Vent. It would also stretch the demand of ginormous amounts of bulding materials over several centuries rather than mere 23 years between the Opening of the Seas and the Building Wall Battle, and 15 years since that.

The presence of far too big walled grounds would also have led to earlier construction of features like the seats of the Enfranchised Houses, the Nolerian Baths or the scholars' town around the Great Library.

There were some who settled outside the Sacred City even in the aftermath of the Adjustment Wars, but these were effectively 'villages'.  Kalava and Old Helamta are the primary examples of these.  And there were small communities around the great temples (e.g. Grace Temple, Axe Temple).

Tershis arose during the reclamation period.  Deresagar probably similar period around the new Esrola Temple and with responsibility to keep the Antones Estate maintained (and in its borders).

Many of the Enfranchised Houses emerged to reestablish their 'hereditary' palaces in Nolerian and Dearno.  And they brought client families out with them.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Orlanthi communities in Nochet: They cannot be all Sartarite, even though Sartarite refugees or branch clans possibly make up the majority. When and where did these settle

Mostly Sarli, even though not all Sartarite.  These are some of the Sarli Clan Triads [note that some appear in multiple places]:

The Three Old Clans:  arrived 3 centuries ago following Belintar [note: could well have been fleeing the Grazers]

·         Calm Waters

·         Birch Staff

·         Bronze Scale

The Three Rich Clans: are blessed by great wealth (due primarily to control/tolls on the routes out of the Great Market)

·         Bronze Scale

·         Fresh Rain

·         Sunheart

The Three Market Clans: noted for their interests in the Great Market (closely associated to the cult of Issaries)

·         Bronze Scale

·         Green Pot

·         Calm Waters

Elmal's Triarchy: known for their devotion to Elmal

·         Sunheart

·         Vorelm

·         Eight Spoke

The Four Pillars of Grace: blessed by proximity to Grace Temple (closely associated to the cult of Ernalda)

·         Five Rings

·         Urvarestra

·         Blue Eyes

·         Vorelm

 

There are others, most more recent and of Sartarite or Heortland origin.

 

Edited by jajagappa

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34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There's also extensive clay pits south of the city in Meldektown. 

I would guess that these are primarily brick-makers' clay pits, given that pottery is a sacred craft for the earth goddessesDuck r rather than for meldek. Still, a lot of charcoal will be burnt for brick-making.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

You're correct that charcoal is shipped in.  I think a lot comes down from the North March from around Arkat's Hold, as does construction timber.  Those get offloaded largely in the Backwater Port to avoid lowering/raising the Chain.

What about the ducks? Duck river boats are the best (possibly only) means of transport through Beast Valley into Sartar. The Creekstream River is wider than the Rhine at Bacharach, yet flows at least as fast as the Rhine there. This will create almost whitewater conditions for at least part of the journey.

Upriver traffic cannot use land-based draught teams, whether of humans, oxen, gazzam or other muscle power. Neither Grazers nor Centaurs are likely to tolerate such activity without merciless taxation and harrassment. Working against that mighty current sounds like an exercise in futility, too.

However, there would be counter-currents created by eddies and similar effecgts, and these children of the river would be the perfect guides of the upriver journey, whether for Durulz reed boats or for a swimmer like Enjossi.

I would guess that Enjossi's success re-establishing the salmon in the Stream would have enriched the Lyksos riverfolk, too. Salmon season (I suppose we are talking about pacific salmon here) would be a big event even for Nochet, let alone Riverside.

So, is there a special place for the durulz in Nochet, or on the opposite bank of the Lyksos?

 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I do like this idea a lot, and allows for some interesting/useful approaches to water storage at the cisterns.  Sounds like something they may have gained from the dwarfs.

I was a bit hesitant to suggest this, given all this "Bronze Age" vibe, but a mechanism like this can work without any force translation.

Jrusteli might have introduced the water screw. 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, I drew on that map to figure out which areas were more likely elevated/lower.  Generally, Panaxles' Canal (the more southern of the two which come in from the west) follows part of the old southern river bed (which has been largely filled in due to the 7 tsunamis and Vent's ash flow) rather than crossing it.  The lowest part though (called the Trough), marks the main sewer line heading out of the city.  Aboveground, that is the path of the Way of the Pillars.

 

 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think very few permanent residents in the Antones Estate itself aside from those of the Cult of Antones (and of course Ty Kora Tek's temple).  I think most working there live in the Deresagar neighborhood.

I asked because of those reports about a population of 10k living in the Manila cementery.

Having strict rules to keep their hovels out of the Antones Estates does make sense, though.

I suppose that maintenance of the Estate is a major branch of Nochet economy. I have a couple of ideas about the Nochet necropolis activities I would like to test here.

- Food and drink catering for funerary/sacrificial feasts in the necropolis: Sharing a meal with the family dead in the estates ought to be a regular Nochet activity. Especially the poorer inhabitants of Nochet might associate their devotions to the dead with days of good chow.

- Scriptoria to leave written prayers for specific blessings with the ancestors. Possibly also shops renting out reusable clay tablets for standard requests.

- Tents or baldachins for hire.

- Transport of building materials and disposal of excavation material (probably going to Meldek Town for further use as building material).

- Messenger services to keep in contact with city activities while on funerary feasts. This applies especially to the more powerful houses and halls.

- Guard and carrier hiring places - probably around the city gates and the main inroads into the extates.

- Sale of devotional gifts (most likely terracotta or similar pottery, or various types of shrouds)

- possibly clothes rental or sale, if certain rites require some form of penitent dress-up.

- Fortune-readers and spirit-talkers making a living from relaying the replies of the honoured dead.

All of this could make the Estates a vibrant part of Nochet daily life rather than a forbidding presence of the dead. Unless in recent mourning, visits to the Estates could be a major factor in the spiritual well-being of the Nochetites, an enjoyable experience.

 

The Estates by night could be a much different proposal. Guards and patrols will be necessary. Some of the clean-up and of the preparations for next day's business will fall into the twilight times, too.

Then there is the Blackmaw.

 

On the other hand, there is Rivertown more or less directly adjacent to the Estates. Panaxles' Canal lies at a considerable distance from the Estates, and there is a lot of (presumably open) town between the Canal and the Estates.

How much has Rivertown grown in recent years, and who inhabits the area adjacent to the Estates?

This area of Riverside is anything but on the side of the river. Poverrite activities don't make sense this far from the actual river. My guess is that we find a shantytown of recent immigrants here, less wealthy and less structured than the older established presence in Sarli.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Love the ghoul hunter and grave swapper ideas! 

I cannot imagine a culture that leaves grave goods without some clandestine activity recovering some of those grave goods, but with the mindset of the Death Cult of Esrolia in general and Nochet in specific, I thought there had to be some only mildly distasteful way of doing this.

 

The Nontraya episode of Esrolian pre-history probably is extremely relevant to the necropolis culture, too. My scenario is about an ancient foe of House Norinel that has been laid to unrest again and again, only to re-appear at the most unopportune times. The rites of the Earth priestess who married his slayer averted this threat to the House and all its clients for the last seventy years, but now it is rising again.

 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I generally use images from the Etruscan site of Cerveteri for my conception of the Antones Estate.

Given the Ernaldan myths about caves and underground resting places, I have the impression that the Esrolian necropolis will have a surface place where sacrifices and feasts are held, and a vast sub-basement area where the dead are resting most of the year. There will be guardians of various kinds - ghosts, rakshasa, snakes, but also Axe Sisters and possibly kimantorings. There could be iron traps to keep out trollkin.

 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

1200 ST will be around the low point.  Post-cataclysm, post-Adjustment Wars.  Some trade with the Shadow Plateau and Karse.  But it's a period with very rich fertile soils.  Probably has doubled in population by 1300 ST just prior to Belintar's arrival.

Still thinking about the Estates, I wonder what arrangements were made by the houses that left Nochet after the Devastation. They surely won't have gathered up the generations of their dead from the Estates. More likely they would have made regular pilgrimages re-burying a few years worth of their dead in their ancient sites, or more recent expansions thereof.

A necropolis like the one I tried to describe above requires constant attention and maintenance. I wonder whether the houses that left Nochet left behind Halls which had the sole function of maintaining the necropolis assets, which were completely reliant on the agricultural production the houses established elsewhere.

 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

These are my approximate dates for the Reclamation of Tershis.  Lots of activity encouraged by Belintar (along with aqueduct and sewer restoration).  There's a gap in activity during the period of Rhigos' domination of trade until the ascent of Queen Bruvala.

1330-1340

  • New temple to Lyksos upriver
  • Lyksos’ Finger reclaimed
  • Belintar’s Wall raised with new gates

All of this deals with the consequences of the New River dug by Belintar. 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

1340-1350

  • Forenes and Poverri’s Seat raised

The area north of the Lyksos river, labeled Ferrytown in the pdf map.

Raised as in Belintar used his magic to pull this bit of land up from the new riverbottom?

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:
  • Chain Towers built and the Chain placed across Lyksos

Why so early? Long-term planning on reaping the trade tolls from the river trade? There couldn't have been much beyond the supplies from Arkat's Hold and New Crystal City. Further north, the North March had become raiding grounds for the Grazelanders.

The Chain must be the biggest chunk of Sea Metal in Glorantha. A bronze chain wouldn't work - there is no way we could construct a taut chain across the width of the combine Lyksos and Creekstream River in a way that it prevents river traffic from "escaping" into the Mirrorsea Bay past Nochet customs. A sea-metal-chain would float atop the river (regardless of its significant bulge upwards in the middle, even if it just followed gravity and did not have strands of active water from the Sky River, the Steam, the Creek and the Lyksos in it, rushing towards Magasta's Pool.

I think that the river is way too narrow along the length of the chain. At least half the water of the  Creekstream River gets added to the Lyksos water, and while the Lyksos mouth may have been placid and lazy up to 1318, the new water flow should easily demand four times the width you allow it.

For controlling the grain trade, the Lyksos is rather insignificant. 80% of the Esrolian grain will be transported past Rhigos. It is possible that Rhigos doesn't have much if any deepwater access, though, so transshipping across the Choralinthor Bay might be a necessity. Still, Nochet is the remotest possible port (apart from Karse) that could be used in this way.

The City of Wonders would be the most logical place to transship the grain from flat-bottomed Mirrorsea craft to deep water vessels, but understandably Belintar has no great desire to have foreign magic interfering with his core residence. All of that is post-Opening history, though. This far back, grain exports wouldn't have been an issue.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:
  • Little Embankment constructed

I'm curious - was this already filling up the former trench that had been bridged already in the Dawn Age? The bridge appears intact (although with the south end flooded) in the post-Devastation map.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

1375-1390

  • Back of the Chain filled in
  • Serzengala’s Dike made
  • Redweave Run recovered
  • Old wall taken down
  • The Twisting Causeway built

1397-1400

  • Lyksos makes the New Finger
  • Brolarant’s Flood opens Lyksos’ Mouth
  • Storm Wall resurrected

1460-1470

  • Goosewalk filled in
  • Tershis marsh raised and dried

I am wondering about this need to reclaim Tershis. Certainly not because of population pressure.

The river eating away chartered land, eroding the Charter itself might have been a relevant reason.

 

Overall, this land reclamation from the rivers has lots of drama. Taming a river is harder than taming a coast line.

I can only assume that the western and northern shores of Orlanth's Hill see regular re-enactments of the Thrinbarri or the Trembling Shore myths to avoid erosion. While the pre-Belintar maps show lots of marsh and wetlands, I would assume that there is a solid bedrock quite close to the surface here. 

 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Some useful thoughts on the arrival of migrants/refugees in this period.  I'm sure these would have settled in Sarli around the Grace Temple.  Largely subsumed into subsequent Heortling refugee hordes, but I like the idea that some may have other older traditions.

 

Is there a particular reason why Sarli attracts all the immigrants from neighboring countries? The Esrolian March may have its greater influence of shepherder rather than farmer culture, but still is Esrolian in nature. Storm Hill is quite a distance away.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, Belintar rebuilt the walls.

Love the idea that he summoned Panaxles and Sestarto to do the rebuilding.  The Great Rivalry revived!  Some lovely conflicts inherent there.  Disputes over which aqueduct is better; debates over key projects such as the Walls or revitalized temples; etc.

I didn't expect this to become that game relevant, especially for your RPGGeek-game. I wonder whether there is an ancient rivalry between the wall-keepers (meaning the folk ritually and materially in charge of keeping up the wall) and the aqueduct keepers. After all, Sestarto's aqueduct crosses Panaxles' wall, according to an overlaying of the Harmast era map with your current map.

 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Tershis arose during the reclamation period.  Deresagar probably similar period around the new Esrola Temple and with responsibility to keep the Antones Estate maintained (and in its borders).

I could see an argument for Deresagar being populated as soon as the non-reclaimers left, leaving behind a community of caretakers for the Estates, hopelessly overrun on Ancestors' Day while the houses and halls were in the diaspora.

Once the walls of Kimantor's Citadel were re-erected, the sprawl of the estates into the city should have come to an end. Still, there must have been a "resettlement" of probably a thousand family tombs that encroached (and undermined) Kimantor's Citadel in order to get the walls and the Blackmaw Overwatch re-instated, with at a guess about 20,000 dead to be re-patriated elsewhere in the Estates, taking the sprawl eastward.

I can only imagine that Belintar himself organized the exodus of these dead, who would have moved their mortal remains themselves to their new resting places. This must have been a busy Ancestors' Day.

 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Many of the Enfranchised Houses emerged to reestablish their 'hereditary' palaces in Nolerian and Dearno.  And they brought client families out with them.

When was the Sacred City disowned and freed from normal habitation, re-dedicated to a temple complex? Possibly already by the time Bruvala became queen.

There must be passages in the Charter of Nochet that allow annexion of Chartered Land for the purpose of temple building. The re-dedication of the Sacred City and the eviction from the Lunar Temple area must have used the same precedences (the relocation of the tombs from Kimantor's Citadel probably too).

I wonder whether the evictees were forced (are going to be forced) into settling the land between Panaxles Canal and the Estates.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Mostly Sarli, even though not all Sartarite.  These are some of the Sarli Clan Triads [note that some appear in multiple places]:

Interesting, but snipped.

 

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7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Naturally the aqueducts have bronze grill-type gates to let water in and keep people, animals, and large debris out.  And likely have other magical wardings.  Of course there are passageways under the docks and the sewer outflows (particularly down in Backside) do not have such gates.

Nochet has no sea (or river) walls to speak of, so grills on that side don't make any sense. The wall towards Orlanths Hill is mostly a cultural statement, or re-statement.

 

My story has no problem passing through any of the Nochet city gates. It is approaching the House Norinel mausoleum and subterranean tombs which might require an alternative route. The party's purpose is even sufficiently legitimate not to aggravate any magical guardians, or even triggering their attention. The current leadership of House Norinel might beg to differ, but the ancestors wouldn't necessarily.

 

Street and youth gangs

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Well, maybe not for an Enfranchised House, but there are lots of client houses who are very 'turf' conscious and closely guard the privileges of their house and neighborhood.  The worst area for such is between Green Rest in Tershis and Northside in Sarli.  Izork's Cross is the most notorious for street gangs to fight over.  The rivalry between House Petralaeo and the Black Crab clan is already strong.

I was thinking about house-sponsored or hall-transcending semi-acceptable gangs, similar to those in New Pavis. Do some bigger houses organize the streetwise of their clients in such gangs? Are these gangs an opportunity to bond with people from other houses before entering the militia or similar organisations? Perhaps before the adulthood rites?

 

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Btw, one fact about Sarli - it's cisterns are not connected to the river, but are large catchments for rain (and water coming down from Storm Hill).  Most houses in Sarli also keep rain barrels and small cisterns in the event of drought, but don't have the capacity that the large aqueduct/cistern system has.

So basically, we have four distinct sources of drinking water for the city. Rainwater catchment for Sarli - they probably have special regulations for roof drainage, and a different system of sewage - and three major aqueducts/canals feeding Nochet - Sestarto's feeding the northwest and the center, Panaxles' feeding the center south of the Sacred City all the way to Dearno, and Korlhar's feeding the southernmost districts and Meldektown from a creek south of the Antones Estate. That means there are four major houses responsible for providing water, and a number of lesser houses/halls dependent of those, like Lorionaeo.

As mentioned above, Sarli is likely to have a "clean sewer" system, possibly even above street level if rooftops are the main catchment areas. They will still have a cloaka sewer system, requiring a lot more maintenance than the constantly watered sewers elsewhere in the city.

Elsewhere there will be a constant overflow of surplus water from the canals flushing the sewers.

Trollkin might be active in the sewers. The dark provides a good environment for them, and their diminutive size might make them better reaching sites that need clearance than human Nochetites. They will probably end up in risky environments way more often than human maintenance folk on official missions. (Toshers run much higher risks than other humans, even when associated with official maintenance groups.)

 

This map has a couple of updates compared to the pdf map on glorantha.com.

Looking at the yellow band of dock area, how do I have to imagine this? Open quay- or beachside with a few lifting mechanisms, or a jumble of wooden sheds, warehouses and offices of customs and house officers tallying the goods?

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

 

NochetRiverEdge.JPG

 

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, is there a special place for the durulz in Nochet, or on the opposite bank of the Lyksos?

For the river traffic, I think the durulz probably occupy parts of the Rivertown slums, as well as Ferrytown across the Lyksos, though there are certainly some in Nochet itself. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

This map has a couple of updates compared to the pdf map on glorantha.com.

:) Yes, it's much more filled in now.

It'll take me a bit to digest and respond to the posts, and probably best done in bits and pieces.

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1 hour ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Any chance that we can see the full updated map?

I'll let @Jeff determine whether he'd like to have that posted at this point or not.

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