Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 7 - Deep Discussion

[David Scott]

This is the Deep Discussion thread for Week 7 - Feel free to speculate, move away from the Guide section under discussion and into other related areas.

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6602-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-7/

Edited August 7, 2017 by David Scott

[jrutila]

In the Third Age the Red Goddess was born. Is there some discussion thread around there where it would be opened up a little bit how new gods can be born/ascended. Didn't the Great Compromise nail the God World and Time began? Or is it that Chaos breaks the Compromise, but then all the new gods should be somehow chaotic. We still have for example Dormal and other non-chaotic new gods.

[David Scott]

The red goddess was a bit of a cheat as she was assembled from several other forgotten and broken gods from the God time. She was only inside time for 27 years before she left to sit in the Middle air - outside of time. During her 27 years she set up her new worship network, and by wining the battle of castle blue, proved she could exist. None of her followers who later ascended to the moon are gods, they cannot give rune magic, but give instead weird new magic that sort of mimics other magics. I believe it all all goes wrong in the end as Dragons tear her apart.

[David Scott]

19 minutes ago, jrutila said:

Or is it that Chaos breaks the Compromise

Chaos is part of the compromise. That it still exists is proof of that. 

[M Helsdon]

26 minutes ago, jrutila said:

In the Third Age the Red Goddess was born. Is there some discussion thread around there where it would be opened up a little bit how new gods can be born/ascended. Didn't the Great Compromise nail the God World and Time began? Or is it that Chaos breaks the Compromise, but then all the new gods should be somehow chaotic. We still have for example Dormal and other non-chaotic new gods.

Heroes can ascend to divine status, of which Dormal is an example. They need to be promoted to demigodhood, by gaining followers and worshippers. Sometimes such demigods are marked by gaining a star, but as the rise (and fall) of Sheng Seleris demonstrates, it isn't necessarily a permanent state. In comparison, the greater gods locked into the Compromise are virtually permanent, because if they were not, the Compromise would fail. The Dara Happans believe all the gods on the Gods Wall are the only permanent gods; in comparison ascended Heroes are transient entities.

Edited August 7, 2017 by M Helsdon

[metcalph]

Joerg:

Quote

The precursor civilization of Dorastor, the Feldichi. I wonder whether this was actually the Gold Wheel Dancer civilization. Dorastor is a small land, but the lack of recorded interaction of this civilization with the Vingkotlings or the Daxdarian empire is enigmatic

Well the Feldichi aren't mentioned until p712 so I'm taking this to the Deep discussion.  However Dorastor is mentioned in the Book of Heortling Mythology.  The Plundering of Aron p76-77

Quote

Finally, after he made it snow out of season, Odayla came to
the king and reported that he had found the trail. Vingkot
saw it then, too and gave Odayla the land of Sylila as a gift.

Quote

They sacrificed to Orlanth and had a great feast,
and Vingkot told everyone of what Odayla had learned.
Then Yinkin told what he had seen when he went
afterwards, and how the land was a place no tribesman had
ever been to. He described the trail over wild lands, across a
great river, to the stone cold mountains that had to be
passed somehow, where he turned back. "I can't fly," he
said, at the last.

 

The Great River is probably the Erinflarth.

 

Quote

The next day the party set out. Tatouth rode far ahead,
his steed leaping from hilltop to hilltop as he gazed through
forests, inside of hills and streams, and across the nearby
sky where hostile breezes lived. He saw where foes laid an
ambush, so they were avoided. He saw where hostile spirits
lay, and so they were avoided as well. At last they reached
the mountains, and there they saw that there were a pair of
mountain giants that were guarding the pass where many of
them, bound as they were to the earth like mortals, had to
cross. The pass is impossible for mortal humans today. The
giants were five hundred feet tall and could throw a stone
that could knock a wind out to crash into the ground.

The pass through the mountains guarded by a pair of Giants is Dorastor.  One of the Giants is killed on the head by a Thunderstone and this is probably the origin of Thunder Mountain.  Yes, it conflicts with the tale of Tobros being stabbed by Baogg and there are no apparent technological or magical marvels (but then again the Giants aren't known in mythical times for creating anything like the Celestial Engine).

[Joerg]

Carried over from the Dawn Age:

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

p.127

I wonder how the defeat of the Dara Happan horse warlords led to the downfall of the Lendarshi ones. The Battle of Eleven Beasts doesn’t mention any Pelandan urban folk at all.

The demigod brothers Hestus and Lendarsh and their Kargzanti followers each conquered and united parts of what would become Carmania in the Gray Age, presumably about the same time Jenarong re-established a Dara Happan empire.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Because the Dara Happan Empire annexed the Lendarshi in the Wars of Light and Darkness (cf Entekosiad and Fortunate Succession)

 

The map in TFS 13 shows Jenarong's Reign, with the Lendarshi sandwiched between the Oroninae occupying the Poralistor region and the Bisosi south of the Brass Mountains. To the west they are separated from the Sweet Sea by the Ker(e)usi.

The Dawn map in the Guide p.126 has Lenshis in the eastern part of this territory and an unnamed horse warlord realm around Lake Oronin. Lendarshi are shown roaming in the Poralistor valley, both north and south, whereas Veshtargos are shown roaming in Doblian.

(I wonder whether the term Lendarshi has the sme meaning in both maps, or whether Lenshi and the unnamed Oronin horse warlord realm are the Lendarshi of TFS.)

TFS p.16 shows the reign of Khordavu (i.e. around 230, after Argentium Thri'ile. The message for the Lendarshi region is "rapid expansion of forests covers this area" which reaches into Karasal and stops just before Naveria.

The Guide p.127 shows a border between Dara Happa and the Greenwood for 265, the foundation of the Second Council.

Erraibdavu 's conquest and Mahzanelm's actions against the temple of Parandol come significantly later than that. Before it comes to this, a Daxdarian general named Zeridexos overcame a Dara Happan army at the obscure places of Perduces and Undentos.

Entekosiad gives a nod toward the aldryami expansion (p.74):

Quote

The Dara Happan gods were great and arrogant. They scorned the High Gods, and acted as if the sun itself would stop overhead because of their command. They sent war gods into the forests against the cities of the High Gods.

"as if the sun itself would stop overhead" - is this just foreshadowing of the Sunstop, or does this confuse the Bright Empire with the Dara Happan invasions?

All that talk about the Dara Happan War Gods makes it sound as if deities like Daysenerus were roaming about.

 

Nothing of this tells us about the Lendarshi horse warlord tribes, though, or how Lenshi came to be part of Dara Happa by the reign of Anirmesha (according to the Guide p.127). The noble houses created by the companions of Lendarsh might have been assimilated and become Idovanic rulers.

Did the Lendarshi send their riders to Argentium Thri'ile? If so, why would they? If not, what became of them?

[metcalph]

20 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Nothing of this tells us about the Lendarshi horse warlord tribes, though, or how Lenshi came to be part of Dara Happa by the reign of Anirmesha (according to the Guide p.127). 

Instead of saying by the reign of Anirmesha, say instead 265 ST so that people know that you are referring to the map.

Secondly the Lendarshi and the Lenshi are tribes.  There are no tribal divisions among them especially at the Dawn. 

The Lenshi and Lendarshi probably paid tribute to Khordavu as soon as he asked.  Plentonius even cites the Pelandans as becoming the foremost allies and subjects of the Ten Princes (p45 Fortunate Succession PDF) which even allowing for some slipperiness on Plentonius' behalf is unlikely to be a complete fabrication

 

[Joerg]

Taking this discussion here, as it leaves the frame of the Dawn Age.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

I don't think that creating a new God is particularly against the Compromise. Many demigods have been born after Time and they haven't broken the Compromise.

Demigods are a different piece of cake, really. While divine in nature, they still have agency in the Surface World. While one may strongly disagree with a demigod, its presence doesn't mean a violation of the Compromise.

The only times this has happened are when Nysalor was born, when Zistor was created and when the Red Goddess became a deity.

IMO the Birth of Nysalor created a new reality within Glorantha, with its different magic. All the lands that had participated in the God Project (even the ones that broke away from the council) fell under this new magic. Birthing Nysalor himself was not a breach of the compromise, according to the description of the Battle of Night and Day in History of the Heortling Peoples (p.21). Daysenerus taking agency in the world was. Nysalor's self-revelation following the formation of Kyger Litor may or may not have been, but the compromise had already been broken.

The Creation of Zistor isn't entirely clear on when the compromise was broken. History of the Heortling Peoples cites the battle of Steelfall, in which Renvald summoned forth Orlanth himself. Zistor appears to have pre-existed, but his participating actively in the battle may be a major thing (same as Nysalor taking an active part in the Battle of Night and Day).

 

The Red Goddess had been at least a demigod since 1220, but it was the raising of the Red Moon from the Naverian soil which broke the Compromise. The Battle of Castle Blue had obeyed the constrictions of the Compromise, taking place on the hero plane rather than in the mundane world, but it had broken the last resistance against the raising of the moon. That act changed the world, visible to all the world.

Now the Dragonrise of 1625 is visible to all the world, too, but dragons are both of the world and not. It was a momentus event, but not necessarily a violation of the Compromise. Neither seems to have been the return of the Boat Planet - other stars and planets returned in the Dawn Age without such problems, either.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Probably both. Unless you have photographs or paintings that show the exact colour of the Sun before and after, it is very difficult to say.

Less golden? Gold used to be the epitome of light.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Dara Happan astronomers might have checked. That might be why it says "Some said".

Most people don't track the sun's path on a regular basis, why should they?

For the same reason people have tracked the sun's path since the Neolithicum - it provides the dates for seeding and other important annual events.

For Glorantha, this doesn't mean checking the places on the horizon where the sun rises and sets - those are fixed year round - but the constellation the sun rises from or sets at. (At the solstices, these are the same. Which ones are they, or is there an ever so slight precession, possibly on a 54 year cycle?)

 

[Joerg]

Instead of saying by the reign of Anirmesha, say instead 265 ST so that people know that you are referring to the map.

I had been referring to the map before, but I found it significant to link it to an emperor before the War of Light and Darkness.

Quote

Secondly the Lendarshi and the Lenshi are tribes.  There are no tribal divisions among them especially at the Dawn. 

But it is the Dawn map in the Guide that makes a distinction - Lendarshi occupying a non-yellowed area north of the yellowed (horse warlord occupied/ruled) area of Lenshi.

I'll have to scan in the maps of the original edition of TFS, the Dara Happan Book of Emperors - those were (somewhat low quality) scans of Greg's master map with the fifty year layers (although not all of those), and provided a couple more such layer informations than in the current edition of TFS with its redrawn maps.

Quote

The Lenshi and Lendarshi probably paid tribute to Khordavu as soon as he asked.  Plentonius even cites the Pelandans as becoming the foremost allies and subjects of the Ten Princes (p45 Fortunate Succession PDF) which even allowing for some slipperiness on Plentonius' behalf is unlikely to be a complete fabrication

The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm pdf p.45, not TFS.

It isn't clear whether the Pelandans are allies or subjects, and if allies, against whom.

Quote

The great success of the Ten Princes caused all the foreign nations to recognize their greatness. Many became allies and subjects at this time. Foremost among them was the land of Pelanda, the land of city states.

So the Ten Princes conquered or annected Pelanda? Or did the Pelandans simply become allies against the last Jenarong dynasty emperors?

 

[Tcneseis]

On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 8:22 AM, Joerg said:

Nothing of this tells us about the Lendarshi horse warlord tribes, though, or how Lenshi came to be part of Dara Happa by the reign of Anirmesha (according to the Guide p.127). The noble houses created by the companions of Lendarsh might have been assimilated and become Idovanic rulers.

According to the Entekosiad, the Lendarshi seem to have merged with the different social classes and tribes of Pelanda, giving up their nomadic ways.

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Tcneseis
an error

[Joerg]

When researching big numbers used by Gloranthans, I took a closer look at the Plentonic dating in the Guide. At first glance, it appears identical to the table in Glorious ReAscent of Yelm p.4, there is a significant addition:

Quote

30,000 YS – Umatum appears. 

That's 20,000 years before the first (Dara Happan) people are created (according to this timeline), and another 10,000 years earlier than Murharzarm's enthronement in 60,000 YS. It was another 15,000 years YS before Umath's encounter with the eight planetary sons and his chaining/dismemberment.

So basically, this list acknowledges the presence of Umatum alongside with the Yelmic Court for 45,000 years YS before coming into conflict.

 

Yelmic and Brithini reckoning of Godtime years aren't that far apart - the Dara Happans allow 11,000 years between the Sunset and the Dawn, the Brithini add 3,825 to the number of 14,825 Turnings of the Red Sands of Time (which get extrapolated to correspond to years in history by calculating the year 1621 to 16,446 on p.112). Comparing documented datings from Kralorela or Vormain would be interesting (but those probably don't exist anywhere in the Real World).

 

I still wonder what suggested the turn of years in Godtime. We are told that Godtime is cyclical, but what does that mean?

Cycles of harvesting and of following beast migrations (whether wild or domesticated) are dictated by the terrestrial year. We know that the people of Dara Happa and of Brithos had cultures based on a majority of people engaging in agriculture.

Murharzarm ordered canalization and irrigation when he overcame Sshorga, starting the ancient Dara Happan wet farming culture with its domesticated gazzam. This doesn't tell us anything about the rhythms and cycles of farming, though.

 

Stars were invented when Umath disturbed the planetary sons. Prior to that, there was only the Golden Dome, under which the 10 orbs would hang, so only around 75,000 YS. Apart from those ten immobile objects and the golden dome, there was nothing to see in the sky. If Arraz and the Luxites/Shanassae were active prior to the planets' fall, such activity was limited to realms above the sun dome.

 

On another note on YS dating: the Birth of the Red Goddess in 1220 almost fits into the extrapolation of the Plentonic dates. Strict Plentonian dating would have expected 1221 as the start of the 10,000 year era following the 1,000 year era of Yelm. The GRoY doesn't offer any suggestions about who should be patron of that era, but Lunar doctrine certainly will claim this for Sedenya. If not for the Carmanian occupation, the Dara Happans may have awaited that year fearfully or joyfully. The Carmanian overlords might even have used this, too, to declare this the era of Idovanus.

 

 

 

[Tcneseis]

On ‎28‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 12:59 PM, Joerg said:

I still wonder what suggested the turn of years in Godtime. We are told that Godtime is cyclical, but what does that mean?

Cycles of harvesting and of following beast migrations (whether wild or domesticated) are dictated by the terrestrial year. We know that the people of Dara Happa and of Brithos had cultures based on a majority of people engaging in agriculture.

I wonder how their put up with the birth of Time after all the God-given orders their ancestors followed.

 

[CJ]

Has the group read ended?

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, CJ said:

Has the group read ended?

The First Volume has. There will be a second volume reading at some point, but I'm looking at structuring it differently. I also intend to do some of the Stafford library. It's likely that I'll do the Glorious ReAccent as a test restructure first..

Edited May 8, 2018 by David Scott