Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 7 - Dawn Age

[metcalph]

13 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Dawn age civilisations west of Teshnos I know very little about. I can't find a single reference outside of these maps to Amtal, Inzagril, Mralani, etc. There is clearly a lot more to the story - and the history presented in the Teshnos chapter doesn't (I know I'm jumping far ahead here, but only to determine that the question won't be resolved when we get there). There is clearly some document from which the names come, but what? 

Avlor's saga.  Early Gregly writings.

[davecake]

Ok, the Mralani are present both in what will be Teshnos, and next to what will be Esrolia. There is no doubt some explanation for why the same culture is in such widely separated places. And I would guess they are pig-hsunchen? 

Amtal could conceivably be a Dune reference? http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Amtal_Rule/DE

 

[davecake]

Thanks, Peter. Any more info about these nations? 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

At the Dawn, Genertela West of Pent/The Wastes is basically mostly Elf Forest - and none of the previous discussions of the Dawn Age had ever given me that impression to this extent.

Not all of it Elf Forest, but basically lots of forest with occasional clearings. Less so north of the Rockwoods - the forests expand eastward in the second century.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The massive deforestation in the early First Age is the most obvious geographical change, and it is huge.

It might be a rough awakening of the forests that went to sleep in the Lesser Darkness, to conditions many of the trees aren't adapted to. Only a minority of trees or other plants were active in the Lesser Darkness and in the Gray Age, and possibly neither dead nor alive/awake during the vagueness of the Greater Darkness.

The plant realm knows a competition and selection at least as sharp as the animal kingdom. Good enough doesn't ensure survival.

These changes may have been much harsher than any human, troll or dwarf deforestation campaign could have wrought.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I expect to some extent this is really more de-Aldryami-isation - that is, the areas remain somewhat forested but the Aldryami are driven out or, as in the Elder WIlds, reduced to a scattered remnant - otherwise the ecological change would be even more extreme. Still, very significant.

The aldryami density cannot have been that great in territories outside of the influence of a Great Tree. Compate Moino and the rest of Laskal, or the Taluks of the Pamaltelan mountain chain, or Dragon Pass during the Inhuman Occupation.

These historical maps are political maps first and foremost. Forest reduction and expansion is documented elsewhere in Greg's master maps, and I think not consistently.

(It is a problem similar to the application of historical maps to the German North Sea coast - whenever you see modern coast lines in maps showing Roman, Saxon or Viking movements in the region, you are lied to. The problem is that we can only guess at the real topography of that time.)

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The disappearance of the entire Tallseed Forest.

That is an ecological loss. A much colder climate, much less precipitation, and axe-wielders (you don't get treestumps without those, but the harvest may have been post-mortem).

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Almost the entirety of Fronela South of the Janube. Huge swathes of North-East Ralios. The Elder WIlds.

Territory previously unoccupied by other dominant species (humans, trolls, dwarves) now get associated with their civilisations.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The entire Jorestl's Forest.

Why do you think so? Jorestl's Forest is alive and well in the Imperial Age map of Seshnela (p.411). It survives the Sinking of Seshnela on numerous of the Pasos Isles. Neither Kanthor's nor Jorestl's Forest ever disappeared, they only lie in territory claimed by the Silver Empire.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Presumably almost all of this is down to the internecine fighting of Aldrya's Woe, in which case it is was truely vicious and catastrophic. In most cases, it was too the benefit of Hsunchen - the Hykimi and Enjoreli in Fronela, the Serpent-Beasts in Ralios, the Pralori and Mraloti in Maniria. 

The Hsunchen do well in light forest with occasional clearings - even Galanini cope well. The change arises when these Hsunchen begin to follow not-quite-Hsunchen life-styles. In the Greatwood, you might want to blame the Kachisti influence for Hsumchen temple ciities and experiments with horticulture, finally agriculture.

The dominant "Hykimi" tribes of the Dawn Age West are similar to the Sable Lords of Kostaddi - living as much a Hsunchen life style as they can while lording over sedentary folk giving tribute. Neither Pendali, Enerali or Enjoreli are Hsunchen nations. They have a Hsunchen aristocracy/warrior class which gets assimilated by either Malkioni or Theyalan culture, retaining only part of their former identities if they choose to submit to the foreign influences, or they retreat into the shrinking wildlands protected by the Aldryami, only to re-emerge when Malkioni and/or Theyalan civilization is weakened.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I'm assuming this warfare is mostly fought with ecological weapons, rather than anything resembing conventional warfare. Diseases, parasites, animals that target seeds, etc. The virulent rot that the Pamaltelan elves are fighting at the Sunstop may be an example of this (and if its fungal, it does raise the issue of how the voralans fit into the whole thing). 

I see basically a failure to adapt to changed circumstances as main theme in the first two centuries. With specialisation for quite different environments, the ecology undergoes a change similar to the forest death e.g. to the bark beetle which depopulates non-native (non-adapted) generic industry plantations while barely affecting residual native (highly adapted) forests.

The aldryami and their forests are time travelers, having missed several centuries of desolation, and a world awakening to much different conditions than when they went to sleep. Even Great Trees might be unable to cope with some of those changes.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Two notable exceptions to the great forest die off. The Warm Wood in Teshnos is barely scratched - it gets a little smaller but only a little. Presumably its physical isolation sees it relatively outside of hostilities and its mild shrinkage is due to conflict with humans. And the elven forests actually significantly expand to cover the Lendarshi lands. That is worth some discussion, as it presumably tells us something significant about human/Aldryami relations in Peloria. 

The Pelandan city states lose their cohesion in the second century and drop out of the cultural focus for a while before the Dara Happan dominant culture includes them. When zooming in, you would still find agricultural areas where the humans have much activity, only the unclaimed pasture gets overrun by forest if not actively cleared. Agriculture and especially pastoralism becomes much harder work as the forests expand.

This, too, might be a case of weaker, less suitable precursor species replaced by aggressively expanding, better adapted ones. This doesn't even have to be hostility on the part of the Aldryami.

[davecake]

Talsardia - this is an Orlanthi Kingdom that suddenly appears in Hykimi territory between the Second Council and Nysalor period. It is an Orlanthi kingdom, founded by King Talsardian. Is it entirely Second Council troops moving from Council territory to the North East, or are there more local Orlanthi that for part of the kingdom? If the latter, there might also be a Vadrudi connection?

 

 

[Joerg]

21 minutes ago, davecake said:

Ok, the Mralani are present both in what will be Teshnos, and next to what will be Esrolia. There is no doubt some explanation for why the same culture is in such widely separated places. And I would guess they are pig-hsunchen? 

IMO the "Mralani" next to Esrolia are a case of mislabeling. "Mralotheni" aka Harandings would fit the region.

21 minutes ago, davecake said:

Amtal could conceivably be a Dune reference? http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Amtal_Rule/DE

Not sure. Reading ahead, the region is the seat of an acceptable dojo of the Herespur philosophy ("everything is permitted"), which might be similar to the "discovery by destruction" theme under that name in Dune. We encounter such philosophies in other popular culture settings, like Mr. Niska in Firefly.

The Inzagril kingdom (or whatever) of western coastal Teshnos doesn't get any text mention in the Guide.

3 minutes ago, davecake said:

Talsardia - this is an Orlanthi Kingdom that suddenly appears in Hykimi territory between the Second Council and Nysalor period. It is an Orlanthi kingdom, founded by King Talsardian. Is it entirely Second Council troops moving from Council territory to the North East, or are there more local Orlanthi that for part of the kingdom? If the latter, there might also be a Vadrudi connection?

I thought this would be a blend of Kereusi and Orlanthi bullishness, elevated to a kingdom. Possibly bear influences, too. Another (belated) form of not-quite-any-more Hsunchen giving the tone for a civilization, IMO.

I am not sure whether the Fronelan Orlanthi ever separated Vadrus' kin out of their central pantheon the way the Kerofinelan Vingkotlings did. The inclusion of Vorthan shows another "Violence is Always an Option" tendency, whereas the influence of the Earth Queen on the rulership appears to be a lot lesser than further south.

[davecake]

Joerg, I think you are right that these maps should be interpreted as political maps  - and as we know Aldryami are usually quite happy to cohabit with Hsunchen, I think the big changes here are best interpreted not as drastic ecological difference, but as Aldryami being supplanted by Hsunchen as the dominant force. This probably does coincide with a lot of land clearing, but not quite as drastically as the map makes it appear. 

Same goes for eg Jorestl's Forest. It is on the map as a political entity at the Dawn, and has disappeared by 265 ST - but that may indicate the loss of Aldryami, at least in numbers for political control, rather than loss of the forest itself. 

But I disagree with the idea that its just passive ecological change, due to the shock of the Dawn or otherwise, or just as an active result of Hsunchen lifestyle change. We know this period coincides with the internecine battles of Aldrya's Woe, so we don't need to seek other explanations. it is quite possible that this may manifest as the loss of the specific trees that support elves, etc. 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

This chapter makes it seem as if the Feldichi ruins and what was learnt/recovered from them were fairly significant in First Age history, but we know incredibly little about them, except that one weird sun-powered flying sled thing in Dorastor. And I kind of hate the sled thing - it seems rather too science fictional rather than magical to me. The other Feldichi magic we have described - the ice that only melts in liquid, magic translator scrolls, singing wards - don't leave me much less confused. Anyone got anything more on the Feldichi?

Only the speculation that their artefacts are transformed Gold Wheel Dancers of earlier generations. Seri-phy-ranor was only a half-blood Gold Wheel Dancer and a leader of the Dorastans. I don't think any full-bloods were still around to make the identification.

[davecake]

If the Feldichi are connected to the Gold Wheel Dancers, that is largely just combining two mysteries into one! Which kind of leaves us with very little to go on either way. 

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, davecake said:

If the Feldichi are connected to the Gold Wheel Dancers, that is largely just combining two mysteries into one! Which kind of leaves us with very little to go on either way. 

Sure, but it might explain the weirdness and un-connectedness of the artifacts.

The Gold Wheel Dancers appear to be some sort of larval stage to magical artifacts - they don't die, at some point they manifest themselves as artifacts. The Praxian Medicine Bundles might be some of them, for instance. The Elder Giants might be able to recall GWDs from this state in order to manage their cradles (though Gonn Orta used the one awakened by Urrgh the Ugly), and there might be unawakened GWDs among the toys and trinkets of the babies, and among the national treasures of many humans and nonhumans of the region.

They are one of the Eldest Races, as old as Hoolar or Grotarons, and as weird.

[davecake]

The Red City is in a number of sources about its significance in prehistoric Naveria, but the 900 ST really highlights the way it has suddenly become independent in the late Second Age, This is mentioned when we get to that area later, but we don't have much detail about why. 

 

 

[scott-martin]

54 minutes ago, davecake said:

Aldryami being supplanted by Hsunchen

This is fertile ground since we know Falamal is a secret god of Hrelar Amali, maybe the central cult.

Aeelra Aldryama, Jorestl’s daughter,
ever lovely, shining white
in her forest dance when the world was young,
unmarried, and the prey of Basmalt.
She is the mother of Pendal.
- Song of the Children of Basmalt

Of course that's Jorestl. Kanthor apparently preferred to remain aloof from Pendali territory and there's also Dontri back on Brithos, but those aldryami backed Faralz against the "Vadeli" and may no longer be extant. (I would love it if they were the forest that relocated to Jrustela.)

Early chronologies indicate "burning of Kanthor's Forest" in 59 ST at the end of a two-year war between Damolsten and the Aldryami, by the way, so that particular forest seems to have gotten a whole lot worse before it got better. 

[Steve]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

If the Feldichi are connected to the Gold Wheel Dancers, that is largely just combining two mysteries into one! Which kind of leaves us with very little to go on either way. 

I found this from Jeff in 2007

(Source http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/worldofglorantha/2007.12/4605.html#4609qlink1)

 

Quote

Here's another little mythic background piece that Greg and I came up with recently:

The Old Man and the Feldichi 
The Old Man was an ancient god that lay with Dorasa during the God Time. Together they created the Feldichi or "Wise People," the ancient inhabitants of Dorasor. Protected by Dorasa and advised by the Old Man, the Feldichi produced a spectacular civilization. However, their entire people were exterminated by Chaos during the Great Darkness and the Old Man was consumed by the Void. Other stories widespread among the survivors of Talastar call the husband of Dorasa, "the Betrayer," or The Evil One," and also Eurmal.

The Talastarings look upon the so-called "father of the Feldichi" as a treacherous, perhaps even chaotic, being whose interests were anti-human. That the elves loved him only reinforces their belief. That the dwarves hated him does the same. And the Feldichi were neither men nor gods. They were treacherous beings whose gifts invariable doomed the recipient. Many refer to them as the "damned Feldichi, fathers of ogres, canibals and seducers, they tricked the dwarfs in a contest of crafting - and won!" That's why the dwarfs hate them so and why their gifts are so deadly to their recipients.

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Steve

[KeithN]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

Talsardia - this is an Orlanthi Kingdom that suddenly appears in Hykimi territory between the Second Council and Nysalor period.

I had assumed that Talsardia was made up of Orlanthi from Peloria, primarily, plus whichever Hsunchen were conquered, or impressed by the Lightbringers and converted, or simply joined the kingdom but kept their beast totem ways and gradually assimilated. I felt that the Kingdom was really either just a powerful individual or dynasty and that it collapsed when the dynasty collapsed. 

[KeithN]

12 hours ago, davecake said:

I agree with Joerg that I would love to see similar for other areas - particularly Pamaltela, though a lozenge wide 'age of Empires' map would also be handy. My impression is the Pamaltelan history isn't in that mature a state yet, though. 

I do have a Umathela/Fonrit/Laskal/Enkloso boardgame in the pipeline, but it is in early stages. The Guide in general is excellent at inspiring game ideas, but this section is really so sweeping that there is not enough to go on. I mean, for example, the sentence on p127 "belligerent factions refounded the World Council as the High Council of the Lands of Genertela" might be an interesting set up for some sort of political/diplomatic/wargame but you would need to go and research details somewhere else (somewhere else in the Guide, mostly). 

The huge green areas at the Dawn I interpret as uninhabited (by human) wilderness rather than Aldryami "strongholds". So Aldryami are there, and are the dominant people, but there are not many of them. So a person from the Serpent Beasts in Ralios might view the Greatwood and Ballid as Aldryami forests, and be scared to enter them but once they actually enter the forests and find there are only a few hundred elves in a huge area, the 'Aldryami'ness of the forest evaporates. 

 

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

Thanks, Peter. Any more info about these nations? 

 

From the saga there are a few notes but they are kind of outdated (like being descended from Hsunchen that sort of thing).  

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

Talsardia - this is an Orlanthi Kingdom that suddenly appears in Hykimi territory between the Second Council and Nysalor period. It is an Orlanthi kingdom, founded by King Talsardian. Is it entirely Second Council troops moving from Council territory to the North East, or are there more local Orlanthi that for part of the kingdom? If the latter, there might also be a Vadrudi connection?

There's no significant human populations of Orlanthi in the area before the arrival of the Second Council.  It also has a great deal of Praxians (Guide p222).  There is a mythic presence of Vadrus that will be noticed (ie what the local Orlanthi see when they worship) and it is no coincidence that History of the Heortling Peoples p24 names the leader of the Talsardian contingent at the Battle of Night and Day as one Tuvadrus.  He's described as a brother to the King and the Guide p222 again names the ruling dynasty as being from Brolia.  

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Inzagril kingdom (or whatever) of western coastal Teshnos doesn't get any text mention in the Guide.

Its main port was probably at Chatakar (whose location and Dawn Age mention in Guide p431 places it firmly within Inzagril lands).

Its capital is mentioned in Guide p433 somewhere within the Fever Trees.

[soltakss]

On 8/8/2017 at 4:26 AM, metcalph said:

p129  Talor is Arkat's son?  Previously this was said about Gerlant.

Maybe he had two sons, it is possible, you know ...

[soltakss]

 

 

 

On 8/8/2017 at 9:29 AM, Akhôrahil said:

"first nothing happened, but then dark strands grew bolder in the sky, like huge loops of rope from the western edge of the world, and hooked over it tautly. Soon a great dark net was visible, straining to pull the Sun back to its path. Strands snapped and unearthly shadows were cast upon the world."

This is the dwarves catching it and pulling it on its correct path again, correct? Although the net or web also brings Arachne Solara to mind.

"Then a great dark spot rose into the sky upon the net. This huge bloated shadow flickered with a smoky glow. The shadow crept across the face of the Sun, blotting it out and making all the world cold for a moment."

No idea. Is this Chaos? Osentalka getting his light by taking it from the sun? 

According to the Wiki, this is Artia. How do we know, and what does that signify? What's going _on_ here?

I just assumed the web was Arachne Solara's web that held Glorantha together and the bloated shadow was Arachne Solara repairing the web. 

 

On 8/8/2017 at 9:29 AM, Akhôrahil said:

"A snapping moment of terror pierced the world, then the dark sky-web vanished, and the edge of the Sun crept past the shadow. The shadow disappeared"

I don't get this. It sounds as though the net snapped, but the sun still moved? Is this a partial success, then? Or did something happen? What happened with the shadow?

Those who wanted the Sun not to stop succeeded as the Sun carried on moving. However, the Sun had stopped and that caused a problem.

The breaking of the web allowed Chaos into the world, which is why the Bright Empire contained chaos. 

I don't think that creating a new God is particularly against the Compromise. Many demigods have been born after Time and they haven't broken the Compromise. The only times this has happened are when Nysalor was born, when Zistor was created and when the Red Goddess became a deity. Interestingly enough, each was then succeeded by a Full Lightbringers' Quest, two of which succeeded and one failed, although Argrath subsequently succeeded twice, so the Red Goddess had three LBQ attempts to unseat her.

On 8/8/2017 at 9:29 AM, Akhôrahil said:

"and the Sun brightened, but everyone thought it looked paler than it had before.

Paler is more white white-ish, or as in less bright? 

Probably both. Unless you have photographs or paintings that show the exact colour of the Sun before and after, it is very difficult to say.

 

On 8/8/2017 at 9:29 AM, Akhôrahil said:

"Some said it moved differently, too."

This seems like something that could be easily checked against astronomical records in Dara Happa.

The Dara Happan astronomers might have checked. That might be why it says "Some said".

Most people don't track the sun's path on a regular basis, why should they?

 

[soltakss]

On 8/8/2017 at 11:15 AM, Steve said:

Good point, but I can't imagine that Harmast hadn't tried some "modern" heroquesting out before undertaking his Lightbringers' Quest. I would have thought he'd have discovered the possibilities through experimentation before going for the big one.

Arkat and Harmast probably discovered modern HeroQuesting independently, as they were HeroQuesting at the same time but in very different places.

It was only when Harmast brought Arkat back from Hell when their paths crossed. As Arkat was recognised as Arkat Humaktsson and joined with the Orlanthi, I would have expected some of the secrets to have been shared.

The Lightbringer Missionaries of the First Age were HeroQuestors, in my opinion. They visited different cultures, looked at their myths and sewed them together, to remake the world. For example, they recognised Dara Happan Yelm and the Orlanthi Evil Emperor as the same deity, which seems like the result of some HeroQuesting. As the myths were all broken, I would have expected them to re-enter the myths and to bring them together. The God Learners did similar things, but from an outside point of view.

[Oracle]

I'm lagging behind a bit, but anyway this question popped up while reading this chapter in the guide:

p. 128, The Gbaji Wars:

Quote

In 365, the Orlanthi, trolls, and dragonewts rebelled against the High Council, and the Dragon Pass region, including most of the original Unity Council lands, stood against the Broken Council.

Unity Council? What Unity Council? From what I know about the Unity Council I guess, this is the same council, which was named World Council in previous sections, but the term Unity Council neither mentioned nor explained before. So is this an omission, which should be marked as an error?

[lokamayadon]

Do we know more of the civilization fond by the counsil in dorastor After the dawn ? Why the magic and knowledge fond thère seems so révolutionary ?  (P128 speaks of "secrets of the universe") and what has ben done with that by the membres of the counsil ?

[Akhôrahil]

On 2017-08-16 at 3:56 AM, lokamayadon said:

Do we know more of the civilization fond by the counsil in dorastor After the dawn ? Why the magic and knowledge fond thère seems so révolutionary ?  (P128 speaks of "secrets of the universe") and what has ben done with that by the membres of the counsil ?

If we believe the Dorastor book (which we perhaps no longer should), they had what might best be described as technomagic. The PCs can find a flying machine operated with buttons and levers, and it does work.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

History of the Heortling Peoples p14-15 describes the Feldichi artefacts of Dokat as 

• Painted poles that announced the names and virtues of anybody who travelled between them.
• Ice which didn't melt unless placed in a liquid
• A scroll which could be read by anyone.

This is a slightly retouched version of what was originally in Dorastor: Land of Doom p6.

There is also the pseudocosmic egg that was discovered at an unknown location.

Now I'm tempted to identify the painted poles as being the precursors of the warding rune magics of RQ.    What I am interested OTOH is finding out what the artefacts meant to the Feldichi and what they used them for.  Where they critical to their religion like the Firestick to the early Pelandans?  Or where they mere child's toys that somehow survived the destruction of the Feldichi (the Celestial Emgine and other Cradle treasures will fall into this category)?  What use did the First, Second and Broken Councils make of them?  What did they think it was for and to what purposes did they use them for?  What other treasures did they find elsewhere.

And of the flying machine, the actual text describes its Feldichi origins as speculative and says that it may date from the Dawn Age, the EWF, the Gbaji Wars or the God Learner Culture (Dorastor: Land of Doom p103).  I think the control panel is too modern to be Feldichi.