One Parry per SR?

[flynnkd]

Quote

An adventurer may attempt to parry additional attacks on subsequent strike ranks at a cumulative –20% penalty for each additional parry

So when an encounter of trollkin, which are all identical as the GM is busy and doesn't have time for details, all attack the same person (well 4-5 of them), all at the same SR, the first guy sucks up your parry and the rest hack into you?  Doesn't that imply that SR are a static measure of exact time? The 20% penalty is bad enough, and pretty much takes care of this for you.

Sometimes you can't avoid these sort of situations, and being taken down by a swarm is realistic I suppose. :).

However, it is another piece of book-keeping you have to deal with.

[soltakss]

Yes.

Being attacked by a horde of identical trollkin means they all attack on the same SR.

As a GM, I would probably vary their Strike Ranks slightly, to avoid such a situation. 

 

[DreadDomain]

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:44 PM, flynnkd said:

Doesn't that imply that SR are a static measure of exact time? The 20% penalty is bad enough, and pretty much takes care of this for you.

Hmmm, good point. The 1 party per SR might not make sense. I'm sure dropping it won't break the game. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

The printed QuickStart rules state that parry doesn't use a strike rank, however those were representative of an earlier playtest stage of the rules. I believe the finalised rules have reinstated the connection between SR's and parry. Easy to play either way I imagine 

[Psullie]

As strike ranks are simply a way to sequence events I'd stagger the Trollkin attacks as Soltakss suggested. RQ2 had equal SR's being decided by DEX so that allows multiple actions within 1 SR, only when DEX is equal are attacks simultaneous.

The QS only states that "may attempt to parry additional attacks on subsequent strike ranks", all this means to me is that your first Parry must be the one at full value, after that you can parry as many as you can, each with cumulative -20. So to use the Trollkin example, if they all attack (staggered) at SR 3 but the massive Cave Troll attacks at SR 8, by the time time the cave troll swings you'd be out of Parry's.

The one caveat here is that if indeed two attacks were deemed simultaneous, then you could not use the same weapon to parry both, but you could parry one with a shield and the other with a weapon but then you could not attack this round.

Bottom line, being outnumbered is bad, even if they are Trollkin

[g33k]

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yes.

Being attacked by a horde of identical trollkin means they all attack on the same SR.

As a GM, I would probably vary their Strike Ranks slightly, to avoid such a situation. 

Yeah; when I considered "horde of trollkin" I figured it would be a death-knell for most RQ characters below the Hero level (at the Hero level, the odds are that the character has ample Rune Magic to neutralize the "horde"); but the idea of them all going on the EXACT SAME SR seemed artificial and mechanistic to me:  they're TROLLKIN -- a disordered mob -- not a precision unit!!!

My first thought was to use a "dF" (Fudge Die, d3) to vary by +/- 1 SR.  My second thought was that this was a bit TOO much variability, and I liked 2d2-1 better, as it bells a bit.

My final thought was that I didn't actually want to assign a SR-per-trollkin, and to just roll for about-1/4 of them on the SR before their mechanically-identical SR, and about-1/4 of them on the SR after.  If the "horde" is large enough that 1/4 of them are still a "horde" then I might subdivide it even further, spreading them out over 4 SR's instead of 3.  In this case, I would skew the curve later into the round instead of symetrically (because Trollkin).

 

 

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Psullie said:

Bottom line, being outnumbered is bad, even if they are Trollkin

+1      Erm...  Sorry, wrong context.

 

+Horde  (you die).

 

[styopa]

21 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yeah; when I considered "horde of trollkin" I figured it would be a death-knell for most RQ characters below the Hero level (at the Hero level, the odds are that the character has ample Rune Magic to neutralize the "horde"); but the idea of them all going on the EXACT SAME SR seemed artificial and mechanistic to me:  they're TROLLKIN -- a disordered mob -- not a precision unit!!!

My first thought was to use a "dF" (Fudge Die, d3) to vary by +/- 1 SR.  My second thought was that this was a bit TOO much variability, and I liked 2d2-1 better, as it bells a bit.

My final thought was that I didn't actually want to assign a SR-per-trollkin, and to just roll for about-1/4 of them on the SR before their mechanically-identical SR, and about-1/4 of them on the SR after.  If the "horde" is large enough that 1/4 of them are still a "horde" then I might subdivide it even further, spreading them out over 4 SR's instead of 3.  In this case, I would skew the curve later into the round instead of symetrically (because Trollkin).

 

 

Or, don't sweat the mechanics so hard?

Simply say they all go on their designated SR, but tell the player getting whacked that 'they're not all coordinated, so you can parry X of them" (where X is an arbitrary number you come up with, or roll a d6 or 2d4 or whatever)

PERSONALLY, while I initially liked the 'additional parries at penalty' thing, the more I dislike the particularism of it.  I hate special exceptions, particularly where the motivation is likely game-based, not reality based.  If you want to parry a couple of times in a round, get your parry over 100%.  Or, if you can parry extra times at penalty, why not attack extra times at penalty?

If you're attacked by 4+ things at once, the key to survival is to either be:

- heavily armored, and/or

- a master combatant, or

- running.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

PERSONALLY, while I initially liked the 'additional parries at penalty' thing, the more I dislike the particularism of it.  I hate special exceptions, particularly where the motivation is likely game-based, not reality based.  If you want to parry a couple of times in a round, get your parry over 100%.  Or, if you can parry extra times at penalty, why not attack extra times at penalty?

I find "parry" to be a more reactive thing, relying on muscle-memory and reflex.

The "attack" calls for a certain degree of intention (yes, also with lots of muscle memory, and a nearly-reflexive "to see the opening is to exploit it", at higher levels), even if it also has reactive components; but almost nobody attacks accidentaly!

Defensive reactions?  Yeah... kinda reflex.  I recall a story about a Jiujitsu master in the States, where someone came up behind him to do the surprise-hands-over-eyes "Guess Who?!" game; before the first syllable was uttered, the prankster was airborne in a dangerous-and-possibly-lethal throw; said master recognized the prankster and managed to alter the throw to set the guy on his feet, instead...

I don't see parries with this rule as a "special exception" -- rather, I see the the "1 attack, 1 parry, or two of either" rule as encouraging an artificial likening of attacks with parries.

YGMV.

1 hour ago, styopa said:

If you're attacked by 4+ things at once, the key to survival is to either be:

- heavily armored, and/or

- a master combatant, or

- running.

No arguments!  Those are much-more-reliable ways to survive.

I think "successive parries at a penalty" rule works just fine as an "emergency defense" thing for when you AREN'T a master-combatant and/or heavily armored (and cannot run away).

This leads me to the idea of a HR of "successive parries at -30% cumulative" (note that you QUICKLY run out of "useful" parries!), unless you have hit 100%-and-better mastery, in which case it's "-15% cumulative for successive parries" (noting that "useful" parries last much longer, but still DO run out!).  i'll ponder this, maybe playtest it...

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by g33k

[styopa]

We're probably going to go with what was discussed in the SR thread, where you have 3 possible stances:

• - all out attack; you can attack & move according to available SRs.  No defensive actions are available.
• - normal: you can attack, parry, dodge (pick 2) in a round.  If you move more than 1/2 your move, you may only pick one.
• - all out defense: you can parry and/or dodge a total of twice without penalty - you may do either any number of successive times, at a cumulative -10% penalty.   If you move more than half, you may only do ONE without penalty.

Berserking gives you the attack bonus, and compels you to all out attack.

Demoralize (or failing a morale check for NPCs) compels you to all out defense.

NPCs may not pick anything but normal UNLESS they have a trait that implies it should be available (like Minotaur berserkering when injured), or are the subject of demoralize.

Of course, those will all likely be tweaked once we've played with them for a while.

[Joerg]

On 15.8.2017 at 7:04 PM, styopa said:

If you're attacked by 4+ things at once, the key to survival is to either be:

- heavily armored, and/or

- a master combatant, or

- running.

You missed "surrendering" as an option for survival. Not a good idea against single-minded or mindless foes such as storm bull berserkers regarding you as chaotic, but most intelligent opponents will take prisoners.

[soltakss]

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

You missed "surrendering" as an option for survival. Not a good idea against single-minded or mindless foes such as storm bull berserkers regarding you as chaotic, but most intelligent opponents will take prisoners.

Broos and ogres happily take prisoners, but would you want to surrender to them?

[Mad Ainsel]

I tend to view Strike Ranks as time, but only provisionally. I consider it a concept to be played with rather loosely where the vicissitudes of combat need tweaking. A horde of identical trollkin would have similar initiative (SR) with respect to other combatants, but I wouldn't have them strike simultaneously, time wise. "Identical" is a convenience of mechanics to help speed play in real time, the die rolls obfuscate such things. It also means an old man like me doesn't have to grab for the reading glasses as much, and that's a big help as I just have to remember one skill set for multiple monsters and NPCs.

I generally didn't allow anything more than one Dodge and/or one Parry in a melee round, regardless of the number of combatants, figuring if a PC had more than one opponent, "Well, it sucks to be you." But that is just my GM style. One could use defensive measures against multiple attacks. Within reasonable limits, of course. Being taken down by a horde/swarm does limit one's options to calling ransom or saying one's final prayers. Of course in Glorantha those prayers might not be so final...