Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 12 - Kralorela

[David Scott]

Index - https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6558-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-index/

• Please keep your discussions to the current section - it's easy to wander off.
• Please keep your discussions on the current section in this thread.
• Use the Deep discussion thread for related but off topic speculations and investigations.
• Please only add to this if you've read the section. I'm trying to avoid derailments by non-participants.
• If you are having difficulty finding the threads - they are all tagged: guide to glorantha group read, click the tag and the treads will all appear:
• https://basicroleplaying.org/tags/guide to glorantha group read/

-----

• Please don't forget to start reading the next section, the Lunar Empire for week 13. From page 292 up to and including page 328. You've got until Monday 18th September.
• Any errors in the next section, please put in the week 13 errors: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6745-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-13-errors/

This week we started our foray into Kralorela. The threads this week are divided into the Provinces of Boshan, Hanjan, Hum Chang, Jaubon, Puchai, Shiyang, Wanzow and Chen Durel, the Bliss of Ignorance

The links to the relevant threads are below:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6748-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-boshan/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6749-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-hanjan/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6750-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-hum-chang/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6751-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-jaubon/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6752-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-puchai/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6753-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-shiyang/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6754-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-wanzow/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6755-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-chen-durel/

-----

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6747-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-deep-discussion/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6720-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-errors/

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by David Scott

[metcalph]

p262 - the picture is interesting in that it portrays Mikaday as a contemporary of Shavaya.  Which isn't the case according to the standard Kralori myth.

p264 - the New Dragons Ring consisting of "five people from five cities" hints at the Quinpolic League.

p264 - When the Oceans closed, the False Dragon Emperor and the New Dragons Ring concealed the fact for a generation.  This is perhaps related to the siege of Diao Yu Cheng (p272).

[Joerg]

The format:

I am a bit unhappy about the province-by-province format of the Places of Interest in this chapter and the Lunar chapter. When identifying a feature on the map, you have to consult the index or the search function of your pdf reader in order to find the place, or consult the political maps of that area to find which province this place belongs to. On the other hand, the Loskalm text always had me guessing whether to look at North or South Loskalm, so I guess what I want is to have both a generalized list and one by sub-regions. Which brings me back to an interactive app reader with sort functions, commentary functions, and in-document links to other Glorantha publications.

So, when I can find the time, I probably build something like that at least for my laptop.

The content:

Kralorela hasn't seen much exploration prior to the Guide. IIRC, the detailed maps that we have seen so far were all digitized versions of Greg's master map, but the detail maps of Kralorela might be new.

Anyway, the maps were the first time to show how the Bridges of Godunya form the Dragon Rune. Basically the bridge residents all provide a huge amount of magical energy just by inhabiting this structure. This makes even the impractical parts of Godunya's bridges at least magically sensible . it's a giant mandala, just like the dragonewt rune in Dragon Pass.

I wonder whether Godunya got the idea from his time in exile in the EWF region. Dragonewt roads are supposed to be ancient, predating the arrival of humans. The ones in Kralorela don't form a nice rune, which may be why they aren't shown in any map. They don't appear to follow the hex grid, either. (Neither do Godunya's bridges - skewed right angles don't work that well on a hex grid.)

 

The East was presented from a Vithelan/East Islander perspective in Revealed Mythologies, with the draconic history of Kerandaruth just a short side issue. The history section gives a good chronology for the Sekever period which is for some reason or other absent from the emperors' list in RuneQuest Companion's Jonstown Compendium excerpts or the Prosopaedia entries for the emperors. A vast improvement compared to the original presentation of Kralorela in the RQ3 Genertela box. The Hero Wars intro to Glorantha simply didn't have the space to do this justice, either.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

p262 - the picture is interesting in that it portrays Mikaday as a contemporary of Shavaya.  Which isn't the case according to the standard Kralori myth.

The lower panel shows two (unnamed, although attributable for the Kralori observers by their accountrements) dragon emperors dancing. There was no time when there were two dragon emperors at the same time (or pre-time). The engraving apparently isn't concerned with chronology or sequence.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

p264 - the New Dragons Ring consisting of "five people from five cities" hints at the Quinpolic League.

Ruling from five different ciies - I read this as they had five Kralori cities as their individual capitals. Pasos wasn't an archipelago back then, and several of the modern port cities were land-locked.

We know ShangHsa-mhNbc, the false emperor. Was he one of this pentumvirate, or were these five governors appointees for Eest doing their own things?

Shang Hsa - I don't know any chinese except for the few snippets of Kralori names even I could make sense of. Hsa may not even be chinese, but it is the name of the tiger god of the tiger Hsunchen. No idea whether Shang has any linguistic connections to Shan (mountain), or whether this is a clever translation of Shogun Toranaga (tiger snake - and that's about 10% of my Japanese vocabulary).

Personally and sheltered by my ignorance of that language I don't mind the use of these pidginized elements of some chinese language, but I fear that a speaker of that language may have similar moments like I had when seeing the Warhammer FRP names for their continental empire. ("Spielhüter" for game keeper, etc.)

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

p264 - When the Oceans closed, the False Dragon Emperor and the New Dragons Ring concealed the fact for a generation.  This is perhaps related to the siege of Diao Yu Cheng (p272).

I wonder whether that knowledge would have been of any use to HeseroonMarn and his followers. On the other hand, Thang How of Fuknama seems to have liberated Chang Tsai earlier than that. (also p.272)

I think that Chang Tsai may have been one of those five cities mentioned on p.264. Lur Nop is a good candidate for one of the others.

[metcalph]

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There was no time when there were two dragon emperors at the same time (or pre-time). The engraving apparently isn't concerned with chronology or sequence.

Or that the standard chronology may be incorrect.

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Ruling from five different ciies - I read this as they had five Kralori cities as their individual capitals. Pasos wasn't an archipelago back then, and several of the modern port cities were land-locked.

Given that one of the leaders in the God Learner conquest was a Gillam De' Estau (of Estaurenic or the Estaurenids), I don't think the five cities have to be ports.  Several places in the Quinpolic League are not in Pasos (Nolos, Pithdaros etc).  The modern Quinpolic League could be harkening back to an earlier version.

 

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

We know ShangHsa-mhNbc, the false emperor. Was he one of this pentumvirate, or were these five governors appointees for Eest doing their own things?

They took control of Kralorela in 768 ST before Eest was set up (775 ST) and they "stopped being God Learners" before the Middle Sea Empire was set up.   As for whether ShangHsa was one of the five, the text says:

Quote

The New Dragon’s Ring, impressed and
amazed by the land’s ancient dragon magics,
soon stopped being God Learners, and
appointed ShangHsa as False Emperor to assist
them in rule.

Guide p264

If ShangHsa was appointed to assist them, it implies he was not one of the five (He could still be one of the five if it turns out the text was clumsily written, mind you).

 

[Joerg]

GIlamdestau the father or the son? The text from Revealed Mythologies p.107 indicates that the elder was killed before his plan was finished, but that ShangHsa reincarnated in a (possibly posthumous) son of Gilam by the same name, who then became the emperor. So - probably not one of the five masters of the cities, but the son of a sixth original conspirator. Quite likely from a Kralori concubine rather than a Seshnegi mother.

46 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Or that the standard chronology may be incorrect.

Reducing the two arrivals of Sekever into a single event?

46 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Given that one of the leaders in the God Learner conquest was a Gillam De' Estau (of Estaurenic or the Estaurenids), I don't think the five cities have to be ports.  Several places in the Quinpolic League are not in Pasos (Nolos, Pithdaros etc).  The modern Quinpolic League could be harkening back to an earlier version.

Estau is in Tanisor, though.

Rikard is another tiger conqueror from Estau (or at least Tanisor). Does ShangHsa mean Tigerheart?

 

 

[davecake]

Kralorelan military - presuming the Kralorelan military is not radically different from the Chinese, i guess the sword the military units wield (that are not even their primary weapon) are cheap single edged sabres, while the swords that 'swordsmen' and more heroic types might use are different, probably straight double edged blades of high quality metal, either like the Goujian Sword if you want a historical reference, or like the Green Destiny Sword from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon if you want a less realistic pop culture one. 

[Joerg]

Alphabetical order of the Kralori provinces surely is one way to present the information, but I suppose it would have been more intuitive to present them from north to south, followed by the islands (or vice versa), and finally Chen Durel. I found it disorienting to jump north and south between provinces, and then to have the two provinces of Hum Chang in a single subchapter.

Maps:

I would have liked to have an overview political map of the provinces for quick reference (other than the overview geographic map with its unreadable entries), and a large scale map of the Bridges, showing the esoteric disfunctional part and the arch openings for the war barges.

Several provinces don't get geographical color maps, only political grayscale ones, e.g. Puchai.

Are there no tidal flats in Genertela, apart from the Rightarm and Leftarm archipelagos? Or are the Rightarm and Leftarm islands really just marshy peninsulas?

 

 

Godunya's bridges have a total population of 44,000 inhabitants, not counting the urban populations at their termini and urban intersections. Their artificial island paddies must use a salt-tolerant breed of rice and might be able to go without artificial irrigation.

The Bridge of One Way has a eight mile wide gap spanned by a bronze cable, making it (the only isolated bridge, connecting the northern tip of Hum Chang with the mainland) useless for mundane traffic unless the bridge ends have ramps or at least stairways to enable ferries to take up the connecting service, or else allow travelers to step across that gap without having to do a tightrope walk.

That bronze cable must be enchanted to have the tensile strength and to withstand corrosion from the sea spray.

 

For one of the bridge termini a dragonman gate is mentioned - Lungren Men, in Boshan. The exarch of this gate (not the city, just the gate) keeps a number of mutilated scout 'newts as guides and interpreters for visitors of the dragonewt city on the far end, beyond two cities on bridge intersections.

I wonder: does this mean that at least this bridge operates like the dragonewt roads? Do all of Godunya's bridges have "dragonman gates"? The three dragonewt cities in the island provinces are connected by regular dragonewt roads.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Joerg
ottograffi

[GianniVacca]

As a big fan of Chinese history, Chinese mythology, Chinese religion, er, Chinese everything, I am rather disappointed by Kralorela as a whole. It's neither faux China nor something entirely different. Rather half-way. Also, even though Glorantha is a bronze age world and Jeff has made all efforts to erase the cod mediaeval European feeling of the West, we still have this Ming China imagery for Kralorela :-(

[davecake]

Sadly I largely agree, Gianni. Kralorela just isn't quite there - it clearly has huge differences to China, but it's very unclear how those might translate into play. And Darudism really isn't developed enough as it stands. 

[lokamayadon]

I am totaly with you Gianni (I am french but I live in china....)

[davecake]

Anyone know anything more about spearbirds? This is the only reference I am aware of. 

And what other flying creatures does the Kralorela military use?

[davecake]

I really like description of Kralori religion here, even though it's a kind of rough sketch with many details still not described. Many many minor and specialized spirits, lesser gods, and sorcerous entities. Religion as a more diverse and pragmatic matter than most of Glorantha. 

The remaining confusion around mysticism in general, and Darudism is particular, is a problem. Is mysticism something that grants very little magic, or are they 'the most powerful of all' who can 'defy any of the gods'? its unclear. And the Godunya cult seems to similar to how it as in RQ3 - a system for shuttling generic magical power around for pragmatic imperial purposes, of no practical use for most of its citizens (or for players). 

[davecake]

Metsyla's Seventeen Lessons to Perfection is perhaps the first school of mysticism known to Kralorela, perhaps still the leading non-draconic school? This is the first mention of people being taught mysticism.