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Septimus Kendaro

Deities of Beer and Wine

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Beer and wine are important elements of both ancient and modern cultures.  In ancient cultures there were often deities associate with beer or wine or the act of brewing.  Are there any canonical deities of beer and wine in Glorantha?  I assume various earth deities often encompass this role but in some cultures that may not be the case and there may be specific gods or goddesses that are the associate with brewing.  And what runes would be associated with them or with brewing?  Maybe fertility and water?

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4 minutes ago, Septimus Kendaro said:

Are there any canonical deities of beer and wine in Glorantha?  I assume various earth deities often encompass this role but in some cultures that may not be the case and there may be specific gods or goddesses that are the associate with brewing.  And what runes would be associated with them or with brewing?  Maybe fertility and water?

For Dragon Pass region, the canonical god is Minlister, one of the Household Gods, and Orlanth’s Master Brewer.  He's said to be the son of Elmal the Sun and Esrola the Grain Goddess (or Esra the Barley Mother, depending on the source).  The only book that shows a rune is Storm Tribe, which went to excess in creating new individual runes (in this case the Brewing Rune, which looks something like the Issaries/Trade rune, except instead of two vertical lines, the left side has two dots with one above and one below the horizontal line). 

The myth in Heortling Mythology p.155 states "He uses a huge magical cauldron named Karni that was taken from the water gods by Orlanth and the Thunder Brothers. He made many drinks in it, but none was perfect until once Minlister fell into the vat himself. Afterwards he could brew beer, ale, mead, or ambrosia, as he desired, without doing more than filling Karni with water and placing his hand in it."

From that I'd say that Minlister does not have the Water rune, but he uses water and transforms it.  I'd be inclined to say Light and Plant after his parents.  I don't think Fertility fits because the drinks don't make you fertile.  You might argue for Disorder given the aftereffects, but one could equally argue that the drinks only become that way when Eurmal gets involved.  Therefore, you might argue that Harmony would be the right rune for the blissful effects of the drinks (and that would likely fit with his mother's runes too).

There are other deities as well.  Fronela has an unnamed beer goddess along the Janube (GtG p.225).  Clearwine in Sartar is associated with Flamal and Ernalda.  In the Vinavale, situated between Esrolia and Caladraland, there is the Free Father (GtG p.258), a son of Ernalda and Veskarthan, who is god of wine, fertility, and freedom.  You could certainly give him the Fertility Rune, possibly with the Heat/Fire Rune.  Nothium, a city in Sylila (GtG p. 321) has Jeru the Staff, a god of wine and pleasure.  In Dara Happa, you can find Oroypsus, the Fat Man and sensual God of Pleasure. He holds grapes and an apple, or other fruit. (GtG p.675).

I'm sure many other local deities can be found (and created).

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Eurmal changed blood into beer to sate Babeester Gor's rampage through Healer valley, so Eurmali can make Blood Beer that calms Babeester Gor cultists.

I seem to remember someone who could make Mead who was associated with honey, but cannot remember who it was.

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Ernalda and Flamal are the deities of wine in Sartar. I can't recall the name of their daughter who is technically the goddess of wine.

Eurmal is generally recognized as the god of intoxication itself..

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Mee Vorala, the goddess of Dark Plants (fungi) is known to be involved in intoxicating drinks as well.

Yeasts would fall into modern fungal taxonomy, but I am not quite so sure for Glorantha. Both yeast and sourdough could be regarded as darkness-related, and other fermentation processes as well (like the production of fish sauce and spekesild, or the Inuit delicacy of whole birds fermented in sealskin), and in that case Mee Vorala would be the go-to deity of darkness.

Historically, yeast was added to beer in the form of grapes or raisins which had it growing naturally on their skins. The spent grain or the dregs can be used to cultivate the yeast.

 

On the whole, anything done with grains (whether baking or brewing) will fall under the aegis of the earth goddesses. Malting the grain is calling forth its fertility, the only alternative to malting is to have the brewer of the alcoholic drink to chew the grain and spit it out again, using the spittle enzymes to break down the starch. I suppose that there are various less civilized cultures using this approach.

Wine appears to be grown everywhere where people tend gardens, even in Fronela (Pomons). Probably not in the Praxian oases, where fermented dates appear to be the only alternative to fermented milk for booze.

While wine appears to be an exported good, brewing beer and other booze (cider, kvass, sake) probably is a household craft in most places, attracting household goddesses or spirits for the task. The presence of perfumers suggests that distillation or freeze-concentration is known, probably by the Lhankor Mhy cult and other alchemical keepers of secrets.

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One of the daughrters of Eiritha might have found the secret of ferminting herd beast milk, in the same way as Eurasian people make Koumiss from mare's milk. Pentians probably do the same to make their own Koumiss.

Agreed that oasis folk probably make their own string drinks from fermenting the fruits of the oases.

In Peloria and Kralorela, rice wine is probably made, but would they be made by cultsts of the same deity or would each area have its own rice wine deity?

Edited by soltakss

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

In Peloria and Kralorela, rice wine is probably made, but would they be made by cultsts of the same deity or would each area have its own rice wine deity?

I would think so. There are several types of rice in the Pelorian bowl, and several types of rice in Kralorela, Teshnos and Vormain. Some types may be common to both regions, others will be local variations unknown elsewhere. The Artmali or their Loper allies may have been rice farmers, too - on Melib, in the old capital Mellon, Annilla is among other functions the goddess of rice. No rice mother is given for Fonrit.

According to Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, Murharzarm introduced irrigation to Dara Happa. Rice farming may have been possible without irrigation in natural wetlands or in regularly flooded basins, and I suppose that Greg meant to include the Wild Rice farming or at least harvesting done by the native Americans of the rivers in the agricultural methods of Peloria.

In Teshnos, Calyz tamed the Tesho marsh and converted it into rice growing land, but the cult of Solf sponsors the rice festival in Taksatar - pretty clear what his role is in this business, at least as the consumer.

In Kralorela, both Emperor Shavaya and a son of Aptanace the Sage are credited with irrigation and rice paddies. Public drunkenness probably is an offense in Kralorela, and there is no mention of alcoholic beverages in either the culture section or the regional description of Kralorela. Wine is listed as one of the imports, though.

Nothing indicates the presence or absence of rice wine or other booze in Vormain.

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On 17/09/2017 at 7:38 AM, Jeff said:

Ernalda and Flamal are the deities of wine in Sartar. I can't recall the name of their daughter who is technically the goddess of wine.

Eurmal is generally recognized as the god of intoxication itself..

The Daughters of the Vine, Keranna and Vuranna, are twin daughters of  Ernalda and Flamal.

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On 17/09/2017 at 8:27 AM, Joerg said:

Yeasts would fall into modern fungal taxonomy, but I am not quite so sure for Glorantha. Both yeast and sourdough could be regarded as darkness-related, and other fermentation processes as well (like the production of fish sauce and spekesild, or the Inuit delicacy of whole birds fermented in sealskin), and in that case Mee Vorala would be the go-to deity of darkness.

Fermentation is not a thing in Glorantha, but magical transformation is. Fruit when treated correctly by ritually stamping in large tubs calls forth the to goddess reciprocate with her powers to transform the dance energy and fruit into wine. The same with grains. Alcohol production is simple ritual magic (to those who know it). When it fails or doesn't quite work, it's down to bad goings on in the village or town, secrets untold. Divinations must be held to discover what is displeasing the spirits or gods and put it right. Nothing to do with darkness spirits.

Edited by David Scott
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3 hours ago, Martin said:

The Daughters of the Vine, Keranna and Vuranna, are twin daughters of  Ernalda and Flamal.

That's them! Yes, Keranna and Vuranna are the daughters of the vine. They are the goddesses and grapes, worshiped as part of the Ernalda cult.

Intoxication though is usually the province of Eurmal, both for good or for ill. 

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Fermentation is not a thing in Glorantha, but magical transformation is.

So fermentation is a special case of naturally occurring magical transformation. As is life in general.

Fermentation isn't limited to alcohol. I specifically mentioned baking bread or aging fish or bird meat in air-tight vessels. It is also about production of vinegar, curd, cheeses, yogurts, kefir.... 

These household magics/processes have things in common.

Whether yeast doughs or sourdough, you improve your bread by adding some purposefully left-over seed material from the previous run. In case of yeast breads, you can use the leftover of the mash after separating off the beer as an alternative.

 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Fruit when treated correctly by ritually stamping in large tubs calls forth the to goddess reciprocate with her powers to transform the dance energy and fruit into wine.

Nope. That's how you get the juice, aka the must (for white wines) or just the pulp. Must is a delightful beverage already before fermentation.

Stomping doesn't help with producing cider, either. Stomping with your feet won't give you the juice, you need a mill- or quern-like crushing device. An oil mill will do.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

The same with grains.

Good luck with that. In order to brew a beer, you have to malt, to kindle the life hiding in the grain before initiating the mash. Every brewer will tell you so. Afterwards, you have to heat the mash before putting it into cool, underground or at least roofed (i.e. dark) storages.

Malt is a welcome source of sweetness, too. Brewers and distillers stop the malting process by roasting the grain before starting the mash. Stuff has to be sweet before it can be made intoxicating.

In this case, I dearly ask you not to omit tangible real life mysteries in the production of these beverages. You're losing out with your "stomping dance" travesty - when I read your suggestion of "it's about the dance", I had all kinds of unfortunate visual associations, like the Lucy episode with Lucille Ball at the vinery, or the cut scene from the Pink Panther series used in the posthumous (pertaining to Peter Sellers) hunt for inspectore Clouseau.

It's not a dance. Plowing a field is more of a dance than pulping grapes. Sowing a field is more of a dance.

You get a much better myth out of Eurmal maliciously pulping the berry harvest, and subsequent treatment of the housewife producing the beverage.

 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Alcohol production is simple ritual magic (to those who know it).

So, fermentation is a commonly known sorcery/alchemy with a bit of animism. (Something you know, with a bit of something you have - the seed to start or accelerate the fermentation.) Deities may be able to give blessings in addition to the correct procedure, or aid maintaining the correct procedure.

 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

When it fails or doesn't quite work, it's down to bad goings on in the village or town, secrets untold. Divinations must be held to discover what is displeasing the spirits or gods and put it right. Nothing to do with darkness spirits.

Disease is associated with darkness and spirits. So why would fermentation attempts gone off not be associated with such? Bad goings on in the town may have drawn their attention, or neglectful treatment of earth's bounty. If nothing else, dark earth spirits. Similar to the modern world superstitions about menstruating women and whipping cream (whether with an electric mixer or some hand-stirring kitchen tool).

Fermentation is a Fertility in Darkness transformation, often underground. Cellars, caves, huge Amphorae dug into the ground (I've seen these in a documentation on (caucasus) Georgian vineries). It isn't the warmth of the womb but the underground chill.

Fermentation aids are well known to any agricultural society. You get curd for cheese only if you store the milk in calf stomachs, or use the liquid you can extract from calf/lamb/kid stomachs e.g. with whey: the rennet. Any pastoralist culture will know this, and have myths explaining the necessity, unless heavily christianized or similarly alienated from their ancient myths. And even then it will have superstitions about it. E.g. how a bull calf is preferable (when the real cause is simple herd economy).

Sure, your average, city-bred gamer will be ignorant of such processes. (At least of the production of dairy - I find that gamers are fairly well informed on the processes of brewing beer and spirits.)

 

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Hopefully this isn't too much of a derail (and many apologies if it is), but I only tend to hang out in certain areas of Glorantha these days--none of them of great repute!--and this gives me something of a localist perspective. (Glorantha does like its localist vs globalist lozengist conundrums.) Not sure if some of the following is useful elsewhere.

In Caladraland, Veskarthan is the great father and patron of the land; not just of the human tribes, but also of the plants that suckle on the ancient lava flows, and the beasts that wander its forests. Like any children some will inherit his Fire and Disorder runes more than others.

I've thus always thought that the products of the plants and beasts are naturally 'fiery', 'spicy', 'disinhibiting', 'libido-enhancing' or 'emboldening', etc., because of those two runes. Not because of any attempt to push a certain cultural, geographical or climatological analogue (which Gloranthan musings can descend into), but just because of the Fire and Disorder runes that are Veskarthan's essential nature.

This can be 'natural', without recourse to ritual, process or preparation. (Though, of course, you can add that if you think it's fun!) A freshly butchered deer can provide the hottest curry you've ever tasted - no spices required. I imagine the juice of the fruits of the forest can work the same way. Ready-made cocktails, straight from the gourd. Yay! Caladran hunters and horticulturalists know how to spot the signs of those fruits and animals strongest in Veskarthan's magic. Outsiders can get it very badly wrong...

I'm sure it's quite different when you move into the Vinavale and Porthomeka, as Harald mentions above. But in the wilds, where the influence of the Twins and other presences is weaker, I tend to like 'natural' hotness and inebriation. Caladrians are the children and image of their volcano gods. And a rising cacophony of blustering violence, fecundity and effusions followed by comatose slumber does sound like some nights out...

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

That's them! Yes, Keranna and Vuranna are the daughters of the vine. They are the goddesses and grapes, worshiped as part of the Ernalda cult.

Intoxication though is usually the province of Eurmal, both for good or for ill. 

I know a myth about how they tricked Eurmal ... :)

Edited by Martin

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sure, your average, city-bred gamer will be ignorant of such processes. (At least of the production of dairy - I find that gamers are fairly well informed on the processes of brewing beer and spirits.)

Odd, that. :D

Personally I bristle at the idea that alll cause-and-effect processes must be magic-based, that there's no such thing as nature except as it's related to some god(dess).

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without fermentation we would not exist, it goes beyond chocolate, cheese and beer. 

that said, while the process may not be understood save perhaps by the God Learners, it does require careful management to get the desired results least you end up with a glass of meths. This is where ritual and divine guidance pays off, follow tradition and respect the gods and your bread will rise, p*** off Eurmal and you may end up with ergot in your wheat!

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Heck, enough ergot on your wheat is probably one of the surest ways to get an eurmal if your stead rolls wrong in a given year.

The whole field of "plant disease spirits" is probably relevant here, voralans and their initiatory potions, etc. 

I love Falamal as the vine king apart from the grain goddesses. Sad Minlinster has no overt relationship to Issaries (spare grain equals "beer") but the Elmal lineage is good enough.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Nope. That's how you get the juice, aka the must (for white wines) or just the pulp. Must is a delightful beverage already before fermentation.

Stomping doesn't help with producing cider, either. Stomping with your feet won't give you the juice, you need a mill- or quern-like crushing device. An oil mill will do.

Good luck with that. In order to brew a beer, you have to malt, to kindle the life hiding in the grain before initiating the mash. Every brewer will tell you so. Afterwards, you have to heat the mash before putting it into cool, underground or at least roofed (i.e. dark) storages.

Malt is a welcome source of sweetness, too. Brewers and distillers stop the malting process by roasting the grain before starting the mash. Stuff has to be sweet before it can be made intoxicating.

Yeah and it's the sugars (or carbohydrates) in that the yeast convert to alcohol (or preservative compounds) here on earth.  Even if it's a magical process it should still be the 'process' that is the ritual.  Uz have all sort of fungal farming.  Mushrooms surely exist in Glorantha and one would think even tinier organisms exist, say yeast for example.  Yes, their interactions may be magical instead of chemical (or both depending on your Glorantha). The reason I suggested fertility is specifically as related to yeast in that as a magical process of transformation in bringing forth a different type of harvest.  One would also think that the spent grains from brewing beer might well be used as fertilizers again adding to the fertility angle. 

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

In this case, I dearly ask you not to omit tangible real life mysteries in the production of these beverages. You're losing out with your "stomping dance" travesty - when I read your suggestion of "it's about the dance", I had all kinds of unfortunate visual associations, like the Lucy episode with Lucille Ball at the vinery, or the cut scene from the Pink Panther series used in the posthumous (pertaining to Peter Sellers) hunt for inspectore Clouseau.

That's pretty much exactly what came to my mind as well.  Both amusing and somewhat frightening.  If it were that easy everyone would be drunk all the time, along with the kids, and most insects in the area.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

It's not a dance. Plowing a field is more of a dance than pulping grapes. Sowing a field is more of a dance.

You get a much better myth out of Eurmal maliciously pulping the berry harvest, and subsequent treatment of the housewife producing the beverage.

I like that. Eurmal screws with the harvest, now what can be done with it?

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, fermentation is a commonly known sorcery/alchemy with a bit of animism. (Something you know, with a bit of something you have - the seed to start or accelerate the fermentation.) Deities may be able to give blessings in addition to the correct procedure, or aid maintaining the correct procedure.

Disease is associated with darkness and spirits. So why would fermentation attempts gone off not be associated with such? Bad goings on in the town may have drawn their attention, or neglectful treatment of earth's bounty. If nothing else, dark earth spirits. Similar to the modern world superstitions about menstruating women and whipping cream (whether with an electric mixer or some hand-stirring kitchen tool).

Fermentation is a Fertility in Darkness transformation, often underground. Cellars, caves, huge Amphorae dug into the ground (I've seen these in a documentation on (caucasus) Georgian vineries). It isn't the warmth of the womb but the underground chill.

Fermentation aids are well known to any agricultural society. You get curd for cheese only if you store the milk in calf stomachs, or use the liquid you can extract from calf/lamb/kid stomachs e.g. with whey: the rennet. Any pastoralist culture will know this, and have myths explaining the necessity, unless heavily christianized or similarly alienated from their ancient myths. And even then it will have superstitions about it. E.g. how a bull calf is preferable (when the real cause is simple herd economy).

Sure, your average, city-bred gamer will be ignorant of such processes. (At least of the production of dairy - I find that gamers are fairly well informed on the processes of brewing beer and spirits.)

I agree it's far too important agriculturally to dismiss as an oversimplified process.  My thoughts are that yes there is a ritualistic process for brewing beer/wine (and cheese, salami, yogurt, vinegar, pickles, etc. and so forth) making and that it was taught by the respective deities to the populace.  Going back to Minlister that @jajagappa mentioned earlier maybe he's yeast in the Orlanthi pantheon:

"Minlister has a special relationship with the natural world, coaxing out its delicious secrets in beers, ales, mead, wine, and other liquors."

Sounds like what yeast does which is great for his relationship with alcoholic beverages but less to for say Colymar Prosciutto or Culbrea Cheese.

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One thing I want to warn folk away from is treating myth as euhemerised science. The sacred stories of Dionysus is not the story of how to make wine - it is what wine does, the divine madness it brings. Most Gloranthans know that wine brings both community and disorder, inspiration and madness. So although Keranna and Vuranna are the goddesses of the grapes, one might also invoke Ernalda for the sense of community and fellowship that wine-drinking brings; but one should also be aware that Eurmal is always present when wine is consumed, and that community and fellowship might quickly become conflict and violence.

We know that there are tales of Babeester Gor getting drunk, but I am sure there are plenty of stories of Orlanth that most civilized of storm gods also over-consuming his wife's gifts and, with Eurmal's aid, drunkenly burning down forests, striking down those who were not his foes, flattening fields with rain and hail, and rampaging like a wild bull.

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

One thing I want to warn folk away from is treating myth as euhemerised science. The sacred stories of Dionysus is not the story of how to make wine - it is what wine does, the divine madness it brings. Most Gloranthans know that wine brings both community and disorder, inspiration and madness. So although Keranna and Vuranna are the goddesses of the grapes, one might also invoke Ernalda for the sense of community and fellowship that wine-drinking brings; but one should also be aware that Eurmal is always present when wine is consumed, and that community and fellowship might quickly become conflict and violence.

We know that there are tales of Babeester Gor getting drunk, but I am sure there are plenty of stories of Orlanth that most civilized of storm gods also over-consuming his wife's gifts and, with Eurmal's aid, drunkenly burning down forests, striking down those who were not his foes, flattening fields with rain and hail, and rampaging like a wild bull.

What got me started thinking about beer and wine deities, aside from actually drinking some beer the time, were deities like Ninkasi, Raugutiene and Raugupatis, and maybe Radegast but less Dionysus, Methe, or Ometochtli.  So brewing or hospitality versus drunkenness or excess, though in numerous cases the two can and do overlap in historical myth.  For example, the Hymn to Ninkasi is a recipe for brewing beer which is along the lines I was most curious about in Glorantha.

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Fermenting is extremely important for Uz, as it provides ways to "cook" without tainting your food with excessive heat. Their enhanced digestive system also permits them to enjoy many varieties of food that humans do not. Maggots and putrescence are delightful flavor enhancers, to the trollish palate. Mee Vorala and Gorakiki are important goddesses who each provide their own special food and beverage transformation magic, but shamanic insight is equally important - intoxicating beverages aren't call "Spirits" for nothing. Each clan and region has its own specialized flavors and techniques, and trolls will gleefully obsess over the fine distinctions between different varieties of "spoiled meat" in the same way that human enthusiasts do over wine and cheeses.


Spirits are important both to attract the right varieties of insects and fungi, as well as for direct effects. I believe that in Glorantha, spirits replace the effects of microscopic beasties like yeast or bacteria, but the observable effects are mostly similar, despite the well documented more extreme effects available to troll mixologists. (mmmmm, Powzie!)

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8 hours ago, Septimus Kendaro said:

What got me started thinking about beer and wine deities, aside from actually drinking some beer the time, were deities like Ninkasi, Raugutiene and Raugupatis, and maybe Radegast but less Dionysus, Methe, or Ometochtli.  So brewing or hospitality versus drunkenness or excess, though in numerous cases the two can and do overlap in historical myth.  For example, the Hymn to Ninkasi is a recipe for brewing beer which is along the lines I was most curious about in Glorantha.

OK, that I agree with. For those unfamiliar with it, here's the Hymn to Ninkasi:

1-4Given birth by the flowing water ......, tenderly cared for by Ninhursaja! Ninkasi, given birth by the flowing water ......, tenderly cared for by Ninhursaja!

5-8Having founded your town upon wax, she completed its great walls for you. Ninkasi, having founded your town upon wax, she completed its great walls for you.

9-12Your father is Enki, the lord Nudimmud, and your mother is Ninti, the queen of the abzu. Ninkasi, your father is Enki, the lord Nudimmud, and your mother is Ninti, the queen of the abzu.

13-16It is you who handle the ...... and dough with a big shovel, mixing, in a pit, the beerbread with sweet aromatics. Ninkasi, it is you who handle the ...... and dough with a big shovel, mixing, in a pit, the beerbread with sweet aromatics.

17-20It is you who bake the beerbread in the big oven, and put in order the piles of hulled grain. Ninkasi, it is you who bake the beerbread in the big oven, and put in order the piles of hulled grain.

21-24It is you who water the earth-covered malt; the noble dogs guard it even from the potentates (?). Ninkasi, it is you who water the earth-covered malt; the noble dogs guard it even from the potentates (?).

25-28It is you who soak the malt in a jar; the waves rise, the waves fall. Ninkasi, it is you who soak the malt in a jar; the waves rise, the waves fall.

29-32It is you who spread the cooked mash on large reed mats; coolness overcomes ....... Ninkasi, it is you who spread the cooked mash on large reed mats; coolness overcomes .......

33-36It is you who hold with both hands the great sweetwort, brewing it with honey and wine. Ninkasi, it is you who hold with both hands the great sweetwort, brewing it with honey and wine.

37-401 line damaged
You ...... the sweetwort to the vessel. Ninkasi, ....... You ...... the sweetwort to the vessel.

41-44You place the fermenting vat, which makes a pleasant sound, appropriately on top of a large collector vat. Ninkasi, you place the fermenting vat, which makes a pleasant sound, appropriately on top of a large collector vat.

45-48It is you who pour out the filtered beer of the collector vat; it is like the onrush of the Tigris and the Euphrates. Ninkasi, it is you who pour out the filtered beer of the collector vat; it is like the onrush of the Tigris and the Euphrates.

-------

I can certainly imagine something similar as a praise to Minlister or to Keranna and Vuranna. Note that this is a procedural explanation:- "How is beer made? By doing the following things...." You do those things, and VOILA! you have beer or wine or whatever. So while making beer, a farmer would sing songs to Minlister, which might also contain the steps for making beer. Similarly, to make wine, farmers would sing to Keranna and Vuranna (or even Ernalda and Flamal) as they harvest the grapes, again as they flatten the grapes, and each day that the women stomp on the grapes.

But when the chief gives out wine by the jug, we all hopefully offer propitiary songs to Eurmal that he not strike us mad with intoxication! Or perhaps we remind Eurmal of when intoxication is useful and maybe we sing of when Eurmal got Orlanth intoxicated so that he could understand that what Ernalda was offering him was better than violence (probably a pretty ribald song of intoxication and sex), thereby calling upon Illusion and Disorder to lead us to Harmony and Life.

 

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16 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Personally I bristle at the idea that alll cause-and-effect processes must be magic-based, that there's no such thing as nature except as it's related to some god(dess).

That's how Glorantha works though. Everything has a myth/god/spirit/sorcery-based explanation, not a science-based one. Plants grow because of myth and magic, not because they're just following natural processes. e.g. if you get ill, it's not because of some natural effect like a virus, it's because of a spirit or curse or similar.

Edited by Steve
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7 hours ago, Steve said:

That's how Glorantha works though. Everything has a myth/god/spirit/sorcery-based explanation, not a science-based one. Plants grow because of myth and magic, not because they're just following natural processes. e.g. if you get ill, it's not because of some natural effect like a virus, it's because of a spirit or curse or similar.

Which I find silly, as ridiculous as the concept of a bunch of submicroscopic runes as elementary particles.  There is, of course, RW precedent; many (if not all) cultures used myth to explain the unknown.  Doesn't mean they were right.

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1 minute ago, Yelm's Light said:

 There is, of course, RW precedent; many (if not all) cultures used myth to explain the unknown.  Doesn't mean they were right.

The big difference, though, between Glorantha and the RW is that in the former magic and gods/spirits are very real and are experienced by most inhabitants on a very regular basis.

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7 hours ago, Steve said:

That's how Glorantha works though. Everything has a myth/god/spirit/sorcery-based explanation, not a science-based one. Plants grow because of myth and magic, not because they're just following natural processes. e.g. if you get ill, it's not because of some natural effect like a virus, it's because of a spirit or curse or similar.

Or more precisely the natural processes are the result of the events of the God Time. The sun sets every day because the Sun God was killed in the God Time. It rises, because the God Time ended with the Dawn and the return of the Sun. 

The God Learners tried to systematize this to great extent, in order to understand, predict, and control "natural processes".

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