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Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 13 - Carmania


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Carmania has a couple of mentions of vampires in Spol. 

It seems a reasonable speculation that the Vampire Legion might originate in Spol?

We might also speculate that, unless there are other vampiric legends, those vampires are from the Western (Vivamort) vampiric variety, rather than the southern Nontraya variety?

 

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7 minutes ago, davecake said:

Carmania has a couple of mentions of vampires in Spol. 

It seems a reasonable speculation that the Vampire Legion might originate in Spol?

We might also speculate that, unless there are other vampiric legends, those vampires are from the Western (Vivamort) vampiric variety, rather than the southern Nontraya variety?

I am not sure whether there is a significant difference between the Gbaji Wars Tanisoran and the Kethaelan varieties of vampire. (I would have called the Tanisorian one the western variety.)

Whatever bad stuff is going on in Spol has a good chance to be founded in YarGan (Vadeli) evils. Not all blues of Pelanda are Waertagi, and rivers are problematic for vampires. Unlike lakes or marshes.

The vampire of Sun County probably was a EWF era person. At least the temple it is haunting stems from that time.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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13 minutes ago, davecake said:

This chapter equates Bisos and Urox. This doesn't feel very convincing to me - sure, they are both bull gods, but many other things are quite different. 

I don't think that they are identical, either.

Both use a magic to jump back from the dead after facing his foe, IvinZoraRu. The main difference to the Praxian Storm Bull myth is the absence of the Block, and that Bisos transformed the slain enemy into a helpful deity, UpelviDedi. (Entekosiad, p.68f)

Bisos has a bit in common with the Bull Orlanth of Fronela, too. Urox wouldn't have taught the liberated peoples how to grow grain.

And neither Orlanth not Urox would have asked a wind goddess to blow away the flood of the DediZoraRu, either would have done so himself.

 

Bisos is to bulls what Odayla is to grizzlies - both the man/deity hunting/herding/sacrificing and the beast that is sacrificed/hunted.

The bull people of the Talsardian Kingdom had accepted the Theyalan missionaries, which makes me expect the Charg bull folk and the Bisosae assimilated by Karmanos to have been Theyalanized before, too. That's how much of the equation will have happened. Still, Bisos is a patron of a civilization, something Urox never was.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Whatever bad stuff is going on in Spol has a good chance to be founded in YarGan (Vadeli) evils. Not all blues of Pelanda are Waertagi, and rivers are problematic for vampires. Unlike lakes or marshes.

Your thesis that YarGan is Vadeli is solely your opinion.  He's in the wrong age (Flood Era) to be a vampire.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that they are identical, either.

Both use a magic to jump back from the dead after facing his foe, IvinZoraRu. The main difference to the Praxian Storm Bull myth is the absence of the Block, and that Bisos transformed the slain enemy into a helpful deity, UpelviDedi. (Entekosiad, p.68f)

But that isn't why Bisos isn't worshipped today.  He's worshipped because he intercedes for Idovanus (Entekosiad p75) . 

Quote

After this great Act of Justice, the good god Bisos is
rewarded for his help to Idovanus the One. Bisos is given a special blessings by the God, and is allowed to receive
worship for that help

And also: 

Quote

In return, Bisos has
received the halo which is characteristic of Carmanian divinities. Bisos
was slain by Carmanos, who declared that Idovanus was above all
other gods. Yet, when Carmanos was stymied by the powers of the
Dark Gods, he used the "Dethronement of the Unjust" Rites. This
action strengthened Bisos, for it was successful only because Bisos had
first performed it. Empowered by the Prophet of Idovanus, Bisos rose
and went to Carmanos, who saw thereby that even his own Highest
God relied upon the other gods to do his work. At this, Idovanus
blessed Bisos (and some others), as shown here.

Hence I see Bisos as being Storm Bull minus the anti-chaos fury plus the blessings of Idovanus.  But there is the presence of the Bleak Land in nearby Charg that may change things and Uroxi tribes are mentioned.

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Your thesis that YarGan is Vadeli is solely your opinion.  

There is no evidence that he is Waertagi.

After the Vadeli war, the Vadeli were put into concentration camps or otherwise forcibly resettled into Kachisti lands, where they plotted with the mostali of Nida to destroy the Kachisti kingdom. And presumably their allies, the riverine Waertagi of the Janube, Poralistor and Oronin. That's why YarGan slew King Oronin. An internecine struggle of western sorcerers, yes. An internecine struggle between Waertagi, no.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

He's in the wrong age (Flood Era) to be a vampire.

He is post Flood Era. King Oronin  (who was later slain by YarGan) overcoming Turos was late Flood Era. And he is hungry.

YarGan's DediZoraRu may have been undead cloaked in water, or they may have been aquatic Waertagi enslaved after YarGan slew Oronin. Or the combination thereof.

Is it necessary for a vampire to harken back to the Devil having taken away its sould, or are emptied Vadeli wandering about without spirit sufficiently undead/vampiric?

Vadel's energy drain magic and the hollows created by the spirit encounter did create the first undead really early, who wandered off all over the world. (Middle Sea Empire p.6) Combine the spirit trap magic with emptied Vadeli, and you have victims of soul-sucking perpretating soul sucking on others.

Unless someone starts to apply cultural relativism to the Vadeli, the general idea about them is that they are major assholes out of some weird principle. Blaming them for all manner of really bad things which happened in their vicinity rarely is wrong, and we have vicinity to the Nidan Mountains of theformer  Kachisti and thereafter Vadeli ruled sorcerer lands.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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2 hours ago, metcalph said:
9 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that they are identical, either.

Both use a magic to jump back from the dead after facing his foe, IvinZoraRu. The main difference to the Praxian Storm Bull myth is the absence of the Block, and that Bisos transformed the slain enemy into a helpful deity, UpelviDedi. (Entekosiad, p.68f)

But that isn't why Bisos isn't worshipped today.  He's worshipped because he intercedes for Idovanus (Entekosiad p75) . 

Good thing I wasn't discussing what Idovanus is worshipped for today, but what he has in common or not with Urox.

The Bisos intercessor revelation came to Carmanos after nearly eradicating his cult. To the bull folk, Bisos was the Bull. Idovanus was a distant god on a distant mountain, but Bisos was the cultural hero.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Hence I see Bisos as being Storm Bull minus the anti-chaos fury plus the blessings of Idovanus.  But there is the presence of the Bleak Land in nearby Charg that may change things and Uroxi tribes are mentioned.

Carmanian Lion Shah Bisos probably was all those things. Carmanian Bull Shah Bisos looks more like the powerful, violence is always the option ancestor.

 

The early Bull Shahs all were named after Tavar (Tawar, the Hykimi bull god, both of the Enjoreli and of the Talsardians), with Bisos appearing only with Bisoshan (the first Carmanian to succeed in the Ten Tests, and Emperor of Dara Happa before inheriting Cartavar's post as shah of the Carmanians) and his son Bisodakar. I see a slight possibility that Idovanic teachings helped Bisoshan to master the Ten Tests.

The Bull Shah Carmanians don't appear to be intercessors to Idovanus. Their greatest common ground with the Lion Shahs before them will have been their dislike of Spolite Darkness.

The Bull Lords present west of Lake Oronin when Syranthir and his ten thousand reached Lake Oronin may have been Idovanic bisosae. Charg and Brolia most likely were not, they followed Esus and Tavar. Probably with a berserk component.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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I don't buy the Blue Vadeli theory either, speculation about the Vadeli half a continent away  near Nida regardless. I think the question is are vampires in Spol related to native Spolite deities and have always been there, or did they arrive in the historical era and decide Spolite necromancy was a good cultural fit? 

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2 hours ago, davecake said:

I don't buy the Blue Vadeli theory either, speculation about the Vadeli half a continent away  near Nida regardless. I think the question is are vampires in Spol related to native Spolite deities and have always been there, or did they arrive in the historical era and decide Spolite necromancy was a good cultural fit? 

The Kachisti were occupying the Hykimi lands north and south of the Nidan mountains, all the way towards Top of the World, when the Vadeli and Mostali plot was played out. That`s including Brolia and Charg, so hardly half a continent away from Lake Oronin.

The various herder hill tribes made their appearance afterwards, including the Andam Horde and the Bisosae.

Are the Waertagi known for enslaving populations and doing terrible things to them? Or do we know other blue-skinned folk who did?

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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One might equally ask do the Vadeli have any association with water, is there anywhere else we have ever heard of Blue Vadeli operating separately to other, Vadeli. Or why you think the Kachisti territory is the same as the Vadeli and Mostali range in a story specifically about Nida. It's just not a very good fit. There is no reason why it can't be a different sorcerous squabble. 

Land its beside the point really. The question is really more about Spol. 

By all means keep pushing the Blue Vadeli theory if you wish, but I don't think the case is getting stronger. Though man, be helpful if we still had lore auctions. 

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15 hours ago, davecake said:

One might equally ask do the Vadeli have any association with water, is there anywhere else we have ever heard of Blue Vadeli operating separately to other, Vadeli.

We hnot ave heard of Blue Vadeli operating on their own since Vadel's personal journeys. I think it is accepted that Vadel was blue-skinned, and there is no indication that his family he brought on subsequent expeditions had any other skin color, so there does seem to be evidence for blue Vadeli solo enterprises. At least way back when.

15 hours ago, davecake said:

Or why you think the Kachisti territory is the same as the Vadeli and Mostali range in a story specifically about Nida.

Kachisti territory extended north and south of the range, and the range (not just Mt. Nida) was raised to separate it into a northern and a southern part, to add to the confusion the suidice and resurrection scheme of the Vadeli captives under Kachisti overwatch. Mt. Nida itself was the only pre-existing mountain in that range.

15 hours ago, davecake said:

It's just not a very good fit. There is no reason why it can't be a different sorcerous squabble. 

Sure - there might have been a different squabble involving sorcerers and enslavement. Possibly enslaved sorcerers. All of which doesn't sound like 

15 hours ago, davecake said:

Land its beside the point really. The question is really more about Spol. 

Do you mean that Spol is the only regional source for vampirism?

YarGan entered Lake Oronin on a raft, coming from outside of the Oronin valley. That doesn't make Spol his home area, but most likely an area beyond the Sweet Sea. A raft isn't a typical Sea Tribe or Waertagi vessel. It would be atypical for the Indigo Fleet, too. What remains is a sorcerous culture having stolen some rudimentary sailing knowledge and inimical to the Waertagi (and their allies). I am waiting for counter-offers.

YarGan is known as Cannibal God rather than as a blood-sucker, though. Probably close enough, but still somewhat different - more ogre than vampire.

 

15 hours ago, davecake said:

By all means keep pushing the Blue Vadeli theory if you wish, but I don't think the case is getting stronger. Though man, be helpful if we still had lore auctions. 

Yes, or some other venue for destructive and authoritative testing of theories.

 

I still maintain that the emptied victims of Vadel's group in Bamatela are good candidates for one origin of vampirism.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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It is my assumption that Spol is the regional source of vampirism. All the Guide tells us directly is that vampirism is a problem in Carmania, and Spol is associated with necromancy, Darkness, etc. so I'm joining the dots to an extent, but it doesn't seem outrageously so. 

I do think cannibalism and vampirism are generally considered the same, or even that closely related, in Glorantha. 

I think YarGan is still a better fit for Waertagi than Vadeli. He is strongly associated with underwater beings, for example. Sacrificing to dark gods is nothing new for the Waertagi (who worship Magasta etc.). 

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