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Jon Hunter

A Magical Economy

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I would possibly cut the prices of sprit magic spells by looking at what the temple should earn from them to avoid people to join the most lucrative profession there is (many thousands of lunars a year by sitting in a warm temple teaching students) and enjoying the fine Falangian wine and high maintenance companions. The above calculations assume that you can only teach one person at a time but most likely you could teach at least a few. At least in Glorantha we really appreciate the teaching profession...  Even assuming that you can teach only one at a time and the price is 1/10th of what is proposed in RQG - the initiate is a (very) wealthy person compared to most standard professions.  

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1 minute ago, hkokko said:

half a year's salary for farmer to learn healing 1

Ten of us get together, it's 5% held back from that harvest, literal Spare Grain. And because spirit magic is reusable that investment continues to enrich our stead week after week until the person who knows that spell dies and we need to go back to the priest. Maybe next year we apply that 5% to something else we need. Meanwhile the temple has these spell spirits just hanging around willing to be "monetized" if the priest brings someone in who passes the test and can learn. Leaving those spirits in the box while our people suffer and starve doesn't strike me as something god likes to see.

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11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:
20 hours ago, g33k said:

All it takes is 1 healing-oriented initiate of an Earth Goddess (doesn't even have to be Chalana Arroy) in a village... or a retired soldier with that critical bit of healing that makes for higher-survivability... etc.

Indeed. But most peasants/serfs/cottars won't have much if any magic, and they are the majority of any population.

If we are discussing Orlanthi culture (which makes up some 7 million of the human inhabitants of Glorantha), cottar class god talkers are quite common for the secondary or tertiary cults.

But those 7 million Orlanthi contribute the most initiates across all theist or partially theist cultures of Glorantha.

Cult initiation among the Pelorians is far from universal. Participation in communal rites there doesn't require more than a cultural/pantheon initiation, and communities are prone to switch religious affiliation if their current practice is lacking in results. Such an approach doesn't quite work with the personal monotheism practiced by the majority of the Orlanthi - while being part of a polytheist religion, the majority of the Orlanthi cultists initiate only to one deity, and the vast majority of these initiates to the cultural great deities Orlanth and Ernalda, experiencing magic and the otherworld purely through those perspectives.

Pelorian theism outside of the (nobles only) cult of Yelm is a lot more pragmatic, and it looks like the theist experience of the Pelorians is a lot more polytheistic in nature, where each participant in the rites gets exposed to the magical secrets more equally than in the Orlanthi rites.

Guide p.42:

Quote

The Pelorians are religiously practical – they sacrifice to the gods in exchange for aid. If a god fails to aid his worshipers, the Pelorians are perfectly willing to abandon that god and find a new one who can help.

The wishy-washy cult initiation of the Pelorians is reflected in the very strange cult of the Seven Mothers which is the main approach to Lunar mysteries in the Provinces. The Dara Happans have a low priesthood (the Enverinus priesthood) which officiates for all (!) state-supported cults in the Empire. That approach is closer to shamans or sorcerers dealing with deities than it is to the identification with the personal deity the Orlanthi godtalkers practice. Imagine if the "temple to all gods" in RQ Apple Lane also had a priest to all gods officiating there. That's how it works in Dara Happa for non-Yelmies.

It isn't quite clear how such things work out in the Gloranthan East, in Fonrit, or among the Doraddi. Pelorian theism appears to limit "being the deity" to the role in the rites rather than to the daily experience of life. East Islanders are default cultists of their island deities, but that's a bit similar to Sartarite clansfolk being "initiated" to the clan wyter - the adulthood and basic religious initiation rather than a specific cultic initiation with identification with a single deity.

I am curious how the shorthand "Theistic magic is something you are" works out for the Pelorian type of "representative theism". In Pelorian society, you are first and foremost a member of your social rank, counted down from 1 (yelmic nobility) to 5 or 6 (slaves, weeders, other almost non-people), only then comes your occupation (selected from acceptable choices within that rank), and perhaps a religious preference to a single deity out of the pantheons available to that part of the empire. Unless you become a Lunar, sidestepping all of that social rank system (also benefits of rank, whether high or low) and joining a special category in addition.

I wonder how this rather flexible divine identification scheme affects cult spirits of reprisal in Peloria. Will the priesthood keep those in check if the individual or the entire community switches from one acceptable deity to another? Do Pelorians expect to be able to switch cults with a one-time penalty imposed by their previous deity?

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4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

cult spirits of reprisal in Peloria

One of the best documented we have, Seven Mothers, "has no spirit of reprisal" (at least in the Cults of Prax formulation). Do ut des, as the Romans said. If I stop giving, god stops giving, but our relationship ends there. But if I come back with the sacrifice, I can buy whatever magic is on the shelf.

IMG the "uninitiated Dara Happan mob" narrative is only partially complete, with Pelorian laborers worshipping an entire complex of entities beneath the aristocratic notice of the Buserians, who scoff and see no god there at all within the block parties aping the wedding of Yelm. Likewise, there are hints that rokarite women communicate significant magical expertise outside the rules of zzabur and beneath formal notice, even though they personally never have two clacks to call their own. Cottars and shepherds aren't rich on the material scale but they get the job done. And people like Wolf Brothers may not have formal spells listed in RQ2 because their magic is invested in who they are, immunity to bronze, shapeshifting, all these wonderful exotic gifts.

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1 hour ago, scott-martin said:
1 hour ago, hkokko said:

half a year's salary for farmer to learn healing 1

In which Gloranthan culture do farmers receive a salary? I cannot think of any. More often than not, farmers are property of a land holder.

Farmers may collect a revenue, which might produce a surplus after their basic needs for living have been deducted. That surplus then will be available for "individual" acquisitions.

Battle magic is animistic, bound to charms. Unlike the Battle Magic of RQ which (in RQ3) was obtained by succeeding in spirit combat against a spell spirit, the HeroQuest charms are items which house the magic agent (spirit), which need attuning. Producing such a charm binding a spirit entity to do the caster's bidding is quite a specialist job which deserves half a year's surplus from a moderately successful small farmer. But unlike in RQ, these charms become property of the stead, kept around, and passed on to whoever is most deserving and available to carry such a charm in the interest of the stead. Hence, that spirit magic "Healing 3" equivalent charm may have been a hand-me-down from a heroic or affluent grandparent in HeroQuest. There might be several people attuned to that charm, but only the person actually holding that charm will be able to cast the magic.

In this model of common magic availablilty, each stead will own quite an array of charms that get distributed to deserving stead members, just like its stock of weapons, tools and clothing gets distributed.

That's somewhat different from the RQ3 model which, while still having a material focus required to cast a spirit spell, anchors that spell as a form of knowledge with the player rather than with the item.

I am waiting for the RQG pdf to appear to be able to form an opinion how the new RQ rules handle this side of spirit magic.

Acquisition of rune magic does include some special tithe to the temple as well, but most crucially it requires the personal sacrifice of POW. This makes rune magic personal and (except for a certain Issaries magic) non-transferable (except through a Heroquest Challenge or chaotic variations of that with the old RQ2 Vivamort cultists, or Thanatari heads).

 

Quote

Ten of us get together, it's 5% held back from that harvest, literal Spare Grain. And because spirit magic is reusable that investment continues to enrich our stead week after week until the person who knows that spell dies and we need to go back to the priest. Maybe next year we apply that 5% to something else we need. Meanwhile the temple has these spell spirits just hanging around willing to be "monetized" if the priest brings someone in who passes the test and can learn. Leaving those spirits in the box while our people suffer and starve doesn't strike me as something god likes to see.

If that spell is tied more to the person carrying the focus item of the spell and less to the charm (focus item) that the carrier needs to attune to (which may use the standard RQ spirit magic acquisition mechanic). In my model above, a charm is something less than a matrix enchantment, and requires some more effort by the bearer to attune to, but it becomes a heirloom of the stead, and doesn't get entirely lost.

Providing an existing charm, with a spirit associated to it, should lower the attuning cost your specialist magician might claim for the service. The question of several people attuning to the same magical item still needs to be resolved, though.

Edited by Joerg
corrected battle/spirit magic name
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1 minute ago, Joerg said:

Providing an existing charm

Ja, I was thinking about simply going in to have our lucky plow sharpened and blessed . . . but forgot the mechanics for that. The documents are full of fetishes and charms "providing one use of Spell X" or whatever. Maybe supporting this "chattel property" is part of what the priests do on cult time while waiting for someone who can afford spell training. It's vibrant Gloranthan peasant magic either way.

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7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In which Gloranthan culture do farmers receive a salary? I cannot think of any. More often than not, farmers are property of a land holder.

My mistake: The term in RQG is Base Income...

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2 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:
12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Everything is magical but not everyone has magic spells.

Please show me a good range of publish stats for human characters with no spells ?

Non-adults are human characters with no spells. You don't usually get stat blocks for them. We never got a stat block for Morak, the horned boy from Biturian's Saga, but he is a published character who never had any spell. His story ends with his initiation to the (basically magic-less) Children of the Forest subcult of Aldrya in Redwood.

Slaves to magical items (like "Feet", the Babeester Gor axe bearing trollkin) don't get spells. (The item has some, though.)

Devout Rokari peasants don't get spells to cast themselves, they donate their magical energy to their congregation, relying on their wizard to cast the magic for them. (I doubt that there are that many magically teetotaller Rokari peasants, though. Most will have some disapproved personal spell. Rarely anything relevant for a character sheet, though, unless it is some defensive magic against magical beings sent against them.)

But then I regard Rokarism as an intellectual exercise applied to a linealist Hrestoli society which mostly goes along with the wizardly doctrine in public, and continues the previous Makanist practices which allowed a stronger personal interaction with the magical world also outside of the wizard caste or magical orders (monasteries) which were so common in the Middle Sea Empire (and might have been open to candidates from any caste - do we know this?). I have the suspicion that the majority of Rokari peasants in Safelster are unfree serfs rather than free Enerali farmers.

The warrior societies of the Malkioni sound like a guild-like structure granting its own magical secrets to its members - providing battle magic (in the true sense of the word, in this context, and historically Hykimi magic that mirrors properties of the totemic beasts). Free peasants may join trade guilds of their own caste, with the possibility of their own spells of low magic appropriate to the purpose of that guild.

I am pretty sure that the noble caste of the Rokari has its own secret or public societies to share or trade magical and political secrets. The martial noble cavalry may have warrior society magics as well.

So yes, it is way more likely to meet a human who has a small range of spells than one who doesn't, but they exist.

 

About children and magic - I wonder whether children organized in criminal gangs (whether temporarily as a consequence of growing up in a certain quarter of the city, or permanently with joining a Lanbrili or similar parent organisation when grown up) will have some form of "guild" magic, possibly itemized little enhancers allowing them to escape, remain unnoticed or similar. But then one might argue that these kids become adults long before their bodies do. 

Edited by Joerg

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ubiquitous though it may be, it is still just another valuable resource - education for example may be ubiquitous here on earth but access in many places is controlled or the privilege of the wealthy. I see magic in Glorantha as the same, just because someone can cast Heal 2 doesn't mean they will. Gloratha has a substantial barter economy which is based more on need than value and this applies to services (magic is a service industry) too. 

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The availability discussion completely derailed the socio-econimc discussion.  It's fairly canonically grounded that even the Orlanthi peasants have access to Barntar magic and heal 2 spells.

LLet's get back to the original discussion using that as the given baseline and for those who disagree say YGMV.  I'd seriously like to analyze what such a world would be like where injuries are easily healed, tools easily repaired, productivity magically increased, etc.

For one thing, if you look at the population of Sartar from the GtG and then play RM/WB you have to acknowledge either the Sartarites reproduce like rabbits or they Resurrect a lot of dead warriors and heal up a ton of wounded on a massive scale

Edited by Pentallion
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Bah.  RQ3 is to all extents and purposes absent from RQG.  In RQ2, you learn a Battle Magic spell and can then cast it as many times as you have the POW available for.  It's a formula, and nothing more.

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29 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

For one thing, if you look at the population of Sartar from the GtG and then play RM/WB you have to acknowledge either the Sartarites reproduce like rabbits or they Resurrect a lot of dead warriors and heal up a ton of wounded on a massive scale

There's both excellent fertility (e.g. rapid rise in populations post-Dawn or post-Dragonkill) due to strong Ernalda magics, but also events that result in catastophic losses (e.g. the Great Winter).  But to get the former benefits, there's a strong need to support the temples and maintain a lifestyle in accord with the gods.  The gods can curse as well as bless.  Disease doesn't just strike because a bunch of broos show up.  Disease occurs when you offend the gods (e.g. stir up Disorder in a city) and they withdraw their protection from Mallia. 

Magic is not just the availability of spells.  It's maintaining the order of things so that you can draw upon the benefits from the gods and not incur their wrath.  And there's nothing to say that is easy to do in a world of conflicting gods and spirits.  The scenario/situation The Missing in the Eleven Lights is an example of an angry spirit extracting revenge.

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Thats another issue I have.  The great winter decimates the Orlanthi population.  Where do they get the manpower to carry out all the battles they do in the following years?  The Lunars have a vast pool of manpower to draw upon but at least they get bogged down on multiple fronts and have a civil war.  But either the gods blessed Sartar with a massive population explosion in the years running up to the great winter or else theres a lot of ressurections going on on a massive scale for them to keep fielding armies.

Then consider that with every battle lost comes the permanent loss of manpower because the enemy holds the battlefield so you cant ressurect the dead, cast regrow limbs, etc.  

Such logistical realities demand an army withdraw with as many dead and wounded as possible.  Magic thus dictates fundamental military doctrine.

Edited by Pentallion

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6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Ten of us get together, it's 5% held back from that harvest, literal Spare Grain. And because spirit magic is reusable that investment continues to enrich our stead week after week until the person who knows that spell dies and we need to go back to the priest. Maybe next year we apply that 5% to something else we need. Meanwhile the temple has these spell spirits just hanging around willing to be "monetized" if the priest brings someone in who passes the test and can learn. Leaving those spirits in the box while our people suffer and starve doesn't strike me as something god likes to see.

I think treating spell-learning as a cost-less activity is an error here.  As far as I know most spirit magic spells are learned in worship ceremonies (based on the RQ3 model of one spell point every five years).  To learn a spell outside worship is to do things out of season and that imposes a cost. The priest has to do special prayers and sacrifices to keep the gods happy and that is the cost of the spell.  The spirits aren't in a box waiting to be picked up, they are on the otherside waiting to be called at the right time. 

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3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

The availability discussion completely derailed the socio-econimc discussion.  It's fairly canonically grounded that even the Orlanthi peasants have access to Barntar magic and heal 2 spells.

Given that the Orlanthi peasant carl is the example for middle class, this much access shouldn't be surprising. And if anything, the cottars will make up a greater portion of the "weird cult" specialist magics.

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

LLet's get back to the original discussion using that as the given baseline and for those who disagree say YGMV.  I'd seriously like to analyze what such a world would be like where injuries are easily healed, tools easily repaired, productivity magically increased, etc.

For one thing, if you look at the population of Sartar from the GtG and then play RM/WB you have to acknowledge either the Sartarites reproduce like rabbits or they Resurrect a lot of dead warriors and heal up a ton of wounded on a massive scale

Ian provided one explanation with his "rattle-born" speed-bred warriors, almost reminiscent of the Union-space Azis from C.J. Cherryh.

But then WB/RM has a lot of non-regenerating attrition inflicted on the population of Sartar, and those re-filling the ranks are increasingly desperate.

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Thats another issue I have.  The great winter decimates the Orlanthi population.  Where do they get the manpower to carry out all the battles they do in the following years?  The Lunars have a vast pool of manpower to draw upon but at least they get bogged down on multiple fronts and have a civil war.  But either the gods blessed Sartar with a massive population explosion in the years running up to the great winter or else theres a lot of ressurections going on on a massive scale for them to keep fielding armies.

Yeah, the Great Winter is something we learned about fairly late, which makes the unit strengths a bit dubious. And a decimation (10% loss) is an optimistic estimate for the outcome of the Great Winter, I would expect losses more in the 30% region. But these losses (mainly to malnutrition and freezing) would be greater among the elderly and the youngest children.

But then the unit numbers are in the region Caesar reported he had to face in Gaul. The battle of Tollense would have been fought between maybe 2 to 3 Dragon Pass units per side. Megiddo might have come close.

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Then consider that with every battle lost comes the permanent loss of manpower because the enemy holds the battlefield so you cant ressurect the dead, cast regrow limbs, etc.  

Such logistical realities demand an army withdraw with as many dead and wounded as possible.  Magic thus dictates fundamental military doctrine.

Battles fought on the home soil will boost fertility, though. Even more so if you have adopted maize. There is a possibility that Maran's blessing might affect conception and health, too.

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

I think treating spell-learning as a cost-less activity is an error here.  As far as I know most spirit magic spells are learned in worship ceremonies (based on the RQ3 model of one spell point every five years).  To learn a spell outside worship is to do things out of season and that imposes a cost. The priest has to do special prayers and sacrifices to keep the gods happy and that is the cost of the spell.  The spirits aren't in a box waiting to be picked up, they are on the otherside waiting to be called at the right time. 

All magic has a time cost for your magical specialists and the infrastructure used. Shrine and temple upkeep will take considerable amounts of resources, but they serve other, more practical purposes than spell teaching as well.

But even a purely mechanistic approach illustrates the community cost of spell teaching.

Under RQ3 rules, a spirit spell taught by a priest or acolyte would cost said priest a day spent in temples business to recover the spell-teaching spell. Sounds like a zero-sum effort, but keeps this priest from doing any other magical service involving spell point expenditure/recovery. The year has only 294 days. If a priest restricts his entire spell-casting to spell-teaching, then every adult clan member will be able to learn a divine spirit spell every third year. If the priest has other duties, his spell teaching will be available at a much increased interval only, but the reality remains that the clan has to feed and equip a medium-high ranking individual for this availability of spell teaching.

Providing such teaching to an outsider must profit the clan, so the outsider has to recompense more than that single day of the magical specialist, and for the upkeep of the recipient for that day (even hospitality has to be reciprocated). That's how those high spell teaching costs come about. If you take into account that under RQ3 the higher point spells might require more than one try to master the spell spirit, the higher prices for more costly spells explain themselves.

 

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On 16/10/2017 at 11:52 PM, Jon Hunter said:

from these published examples I think its safe to say in Glorantha almost everyone has access to magic

I certainly don't disagree with this although old supplements do provide us wth some good examples, times have moved on. Using Sartar as a starting example and looking at RQ2 & Cults of Prax , to remain an initiate of Orlanth means you have to tithe 10% of your income to the temple. This income is likely to be in the form of goods as service is 6 weeks a year. Goods will be food, animals, clothing anything to support the priest in his work, likewise service will be assisting in rituals, and the ruling of the temple, being in the fyrd, etc. As for magic - I'd say some of this service is learning magic - it benefits the temple and it's members, and likewise training. Every adult will know at least 1 piece of magic. Ignite, repair being perhaps some of the most common. The next being the free magic, the next reduced cost magic. RQ3 had the right idea saying 1pt per 5 (or what ever it was) years as it gives us an average to work with. 

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12 hours ago, Pentallion said:

The great winter decimates the Orlanthi population.

Great Winter = -20% population in Sartar, Old Tarsh, Grazelands; -10% population in Esrolia, Lunar Tarsh and Prax.  These are the figures we are using and not just Orlanthi.

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How will all this magic affect the economy and society?  Obviously, healing services would be only for major injuries that the Heal spell can't handle, like Regrow Limb and Resurrect as well as diseases and spirit infestations and chaos.  Therefore safety issues become less of a concern.  Minor injuries don't take you out of the workforce and even major injuries aren't as terrifying to Gloranthans as they would be on Earth.  So you'd have more risk takers.  Also, risk takers can be ressed, patched up.   This is a big deal because sociologists on our world have often cited that many of the risk takers that existed pre-WW1 died off in the Great War and we lost more in WW2 and that since it's a genetic trait, the species is now more averse to risk than it used to be in prior centuries.  ie, less people exist nowadays who have the "Right Stuff".  Even our music bemoans "where are all the heroes/cowboys/ etc."  That's not just a sense or feeling of nostalgia, it's an actual genetic fact.

Gloranthan risk takers don't have this problem to such a high degree, which is probably what made the Hero Wars inevitable.

This, however, creates a contradiction.  We have people who are less averse to risk, but we have battlefield logistics which say we must withdraw before the battle is truly decided while we can still reclaim our wounded and dead for healing.  How does society resolve this conflict?  Battles between great heroes would be the obvious solution.  This mitigates the risk of losing large portions of an army to rout.  When one sides Ajax falls, that side withdraws, preferably with Ajax.  Nothing would be more demoralizing than to see Achilles dragging Hector behind his chariot.  You lost your Hero,  your risk taker.  Any battles now require either a new hero or the loss of many men as there's no longer a metric to decide when to retreat.  Such a loss means defeat.  So decisive battles that see the enemy routed and wiped out would be exceptionally rare.  Losses in WB/RM would be expressed in units pulling out of the fight more than they would as deaths and dismemberments.  War does not become so much a chess match of taking out the other guys king, which would increase casualties amongst the pawns, it becomes a clash of kings on the board while the others simply maneuver to do whatever damage they can, while not over committing.  When one hero or band of heroes defeat the other, that side withdraws.   This part is the actual battle:  Being in a tactical position to reclaim the body of your heroes when they go down.  That's the whole battle right there and most times, you can't win it because their hero is standing over the corpse.  Then withdraw.  There'd be no routs with cavalry rushing in to chop off the heads of the enemy fleeing as the enemy would strive to retreat in good order, never having wasted manpower in a decisive battle.

Still want to know how the ubiquitous nature of magic affects the economy.  That's a bit harder for me to think through.

 

Edited by Pentallion
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On a macro level, I tend to believe that Magic is a wash. For every Repair spell there is a renegade Gremlin running around breaking things. For every Plowsharp, there is a stubborn Stone Spirit refusing to be budged. The simple existence of Heal2 means that people are far more likely to resort to swordplay over minor disputes then they would be in our world. 

The main "economic" difference I've seen mentioned is the big reduction in child mortality. A much greater percentage of Gloranthan births result in adults than was the case in the RW until very very recently. This extra population is, of course, then "spent" on battle fields and in various natural and magical disasters. 

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1 hour ago, boztakang said:

On a macro level, I tend to believe that Magic is a wash. For every Repair spell there is a renegade Gremlin running around breaking things. For every Plowsharp, there is a stubborn Stone Spirit refusing to be budged. . 

A those extra obstacles and problems or just different explanations to events that we would explain by science.

I'd thought about disease as initially thought about all of the disease spirits as well as natural disease, but then rethought, disease spirits is the main way disease operates in Glorantha, illness spread by micro bacteria and viruses just doesn't exist in Glorantha. Magical problems are not always on top off mundane or scientific problems, often they are alternatives to them.

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On 17.10.2017 at 7:57 PM, David Scott said:

In HeroQuest terms they are the 11W levels - Devotee, shaman, Mage and positions like Khan. In RQ levels they are Rune Lords and Priests, Shaman and what ever your sorcery school has for Mages. Calculations are per relevant initiate group - Initiates, Spirit magicians, school member etc. e.g. using the data from Sartar-KoH, Cults of Sartar chapter:

Babeester Gor 250 = 2-3 Magic people

Ernalda 40,000 = 400 Magic people

Humakt 1000 = 10 Magic people - As the 1 in 100 figure is just a guideline you may want to increase a figure like this. But don't forget that lots of people remain initiates all their life and can be very powerful.

While I agree for the Ernalda numbers, I don't quite agree with the numbers for the magical combat defender cults like Humakt or Babeester. By their very nature, such cults are more magical.

What would you say to Jedi knights where only one in thousand qualifies for having a padawan? Does the 5000 population of Orathorn mean that there are only five full sorcerers? Are true mystics dependant on having a significant number of lay mystics behind them?

A cult which regularly produces martyrs (including Humakt, Storm Bull, Babeester) provides a wholly different intensity of worship than a cult of farmers (although Hon-eel's maize rites may have changed that, and Alanthore might even intensify that).

Certain professions like spirit talker, smith, alchemist, engineer are a lot more magical than others, and their cults may be seen like "break-outs" from the general population, to use the HQ ability terminology. Their presence may mean that a number of generalist positions (Ernalda, Orlanth) might be cut, since there is of course an economical maximal overhead of magical specialists one can affort, creating something of broader amount of people nearly at that "magic people" level while spending their time mostly on mundane necessities.

There will have to be uneven distribution of magical people if you want to have magical centers (like the Greenhaft temple to Ernalda, or worse temple cities like Ezel or the Paps, or Old Wind Temple.

 

What retirement options are there for magical people who cannot or will not continue their holy calling but aren't quite dead yet? Not every heroquester achieves agelessness like Hofstaring. Ernalda is the only cult with a working "senior citizen" level (Asrelia, Ty Kora Tek). Sun County has retirement towers.

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11 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

A those extra obstacles and problems or just different explanations to events that we would explain by science.

This is very much my understanding of Glorantha too. These aren’t extra obstacles, they are what happens when the world is magically alive. Everything then has a spirit/soul/essence that manifests in the world in some way. 

 

11 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

disease spirits is the main way disease operates in Glorantha, illness spread by micro bacteria and viruses just doesn't exist in Glorantha. Magical problems are not always on top off mundane or scientific problems, often they are alternatives to them

This is also the correct way to view Glorantha in my opinion, problems are magical problems and not on top of mundane or scientific problems. When you start to introduce a scientific answer to a Gloranthan problem you’ve missed the point.

Take for example infant mortality in Glorantha. Why is childbirth dangerous in Glorantha. We know the real world science reasons for this, but that’s not Glorantha. Is childbirth actually dangerous there? Disease spirits always lurk, that’s always going to be an issue. Birth defects? Blood loss? Is there a fundamental magical issue, such as the soul/spirit staying in the child’s body at birth. Is it an interaction between the life and death runes. Be clear, I’m not talking about the physical discomfort/pain of birth, I’m talking about do babies die, and if so why magically  

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Joerg said:
On 17/10/2017 at 6:57 PM, David Scott said:

Humakt 1000 = 10 Magic people - As the 1 in 100 figure is just a guideline you may want to increase a figure like this. But don't forget that lots of people remain initiates all their life and can be very powerful.

While I agree for the Ernalda numbers, I don't quite agree with the numbers for the magical combat defender cults like Humakt or Babeester. By their very nature, such cults are more magical.

As I said it’s a guideline that we use and you may want to increase some of the number. if you want to produce actual numbers go ahead, although I’m not sure it’s a useful exercise. When looking at a general overview 1 in 100 works well in practice. The numbers work very well with Babeester Gor, only large Earth temples will have rune levels or devotees and they are likely to be mobile. I suspect the main centre for the cult is in Esrolia. In the Wastelands, there are only 55 initiates. Please also note that these numbers never include PCs, so at some point there will be a devotee of Babeester Gor in the Wastes. 

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