Can Warding be abused this way?

[Pentallion]

So one of my players has discovered the joys of warding.  He wants to put the stakes inside a metal ring and use the huge ring, more like a hoop, as a weapon.  "Here, enter my warding 4 hoop and die."

I could easily rule, "No.  Because I said so."  But logically, it's a freaking brutal weapon that seems to work according to RAW.  And a MGF ruling says yeah, but a gee that breaks the game ruling might say otherwise.

So what would be Chaosium's take on this?

[Yelm's Light]

When I figured it out (which took a while), my initial reaction was "No, you can't have the Hula Hoop of Death."  Instead, I'd just rule that, as I'd always assumed (and may even have absorbed from somewhere in my wide reading of things RQ), Warding is stationary, i.e. the stakes must be set into the ground.  (Probably from the Issaries "Create Market" spells, come to think of it.)

Edited October 20, 2017 by Yelm's Light

[Pentallion]

50 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

When I figured it out (which took a while), my initial reaction was "No, you can't have the Hula Hoop of Death."  Instead, I'd just rule that, as I'd always assumed (and may even have absorbed from somewhere in my wide reading of things RQ), Warding is stationary, i.e. the stakes must be set into the ground.  (Probably from the Issaries "Create Market" spells, come to think of it.)

Then they're going to point out, and rightly so, that in official published material, they've seen stakes planted in lots of creative ways that don't include the ground.  They'll point out one adventure I can think of where the stakes were irremovable, having been built into the structure itself.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Pentallion

[David Scott]

RQG says

Quote

This ritual spell creates an area of safety for those inside.

who is inside the hoop? 

[Zit]

Gondo Holst has a cart protected with a warding spell. It moves, so why not a ring. I think this is a brilliant idea.

[jajagappa]

The intent with Warding is that your deity is giving you power to protect a sacred space.  As @David Scott noted above, what space within it is sanctified and who is being protected by this mobile Warding?  A mobile cart or wagon could qualify (i.e. the sacred space of a travelling merchant), but it's less clear how such a hoop would.

The other issue I see with the "hula hoop of Death" is that the person it is tossed upon doesn't actually cross the warding.  Instead, they are effectively "invited" within or "engulfed" by the caster who is dropping the sacred space onto them.  And if I had a player pursuing such, this is how I'd handle it - and let them be "surprised" when the effect isn't what they thought.

[Pentallion]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The intent with Warding is that your deity is giving you power to protect a sacred space.  As @David Scott noted above, what space within it is sanctified and who is being protected by this mobile Warding?  A mobile cart or wagon could qualify (i.e. the sacred space of a travelling merchant), but it's less clear how such a hoop would.

The other issue I see with the "hula hoop of Death" is that the person it is tossed upon doesn't actually cross the warding.  Instead, they are effectively "invited" within or "engulfed" by the caster who is dropping the sacred space onto them.  And if I had a player pursuing such, this is how I'd handle it - and let them be "surprised" when the effect isn't what they thought.

Ahhh, but now we're having a philosophical debate.  As such, I must quote the famous Magi Minestein who, when he discovered that Entropy equals Magic times Chaos squared (e=mc^2) said all things are Relative.  One could say the hoop was moving relative to the person, but it is the hoop that is the point of reference for the spell and from the hoops point of reference, everything moves but the hoop.  All of Glorantha passes under the hoop.  The target moves into the hoop.  Now much as I'd love to anchor the hoop to Glorantha and say the warding spell requires the hoop to be immobile, the great Chaos theorist Gondo Holst has already proven that the hoop can move when he created his moving Warded wagon.

If you crawled under the wagon, with no intent to enter the wagon, you still enter the Warding spells area of effect and are hit with the warding spell.  Same works for the hoop of death.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Pentallion

[Pentallion]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

RQG says

who is inside the hoop? 

That might seem like a relevant question, but actually it is not. While one might claim the caster stands inside the hoop when he casts warding it has been proven that it is not necessary.  In every instance of Warding in every RQ product ever produced, the caster need not remain within the area of the warding and in some descriptions of the layout of the warding spell, it is obvious that the caster could not have been within the warding at the time of the casting as it's dimensions are too small.  All that matters is that someone else enter the warding area, and as I said in the above post, Gondo Holst has a moving warding spell in a wagon and if someone even passed under the wagaon, per RAW, they get hit with the warding spell.

Just waving the Hoop of Death over the targets head would be enough to set it off.  I'm thinking evil frisbee at a large concert....

And just to be clear, I intend to rule that No, you can't do this.  But I'd rather have a logical reason that stands up to a rational attack on it's foundation than because it breaks the game.  I throw the latter reason out there and they call MGF and before you know it, Hula Hoop of Death gets an LLC license and every Geo's sells them.  This is why I'm taking my appeal directly to Chaosium.  Why is it, Greg, Jeff, Sandy, Rick...that Orlanthi magicians don't cast flight spells on mobile disks with Warding and toss them out there to frisbee to death the whole Lunar army?

Edited October 20, 2017 by Pentallion

[7Tigers]

Hum, rules say:

Quote

This spell requires 4 wands as “props.” They must be exactly 15 cm in length, and may be made of light wood.

=> not really great for a frisbee!

[Pentallion]

3 minutes ago, 7Tigers said:

Hum, rules say:

=> not really great for a frisbee!

Okay, so hexagonal shaped frisbee.  Or even a square frisbee.  What with flight spells, they needn't be aerodynamically designed.

[David Scott]

12 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

This is why I'm taking my appeal directly to Chaosium.

In that case you need to use the magic formula - @Jeff & @Jason Durall - they are likely busy as they along with most of Chaosium are at the Kraken...

[D]

You could make a thick arbalest bolt out of the 4 wards, with the spell effect facing backwards so  when someone tries to remove it they get hit with it.

I'd be tempted to tell the players they can do this, but then point out that npc's will also do it.

[Pentallion]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

In that case you need to use the magic formula - @Jeff & @Jason Durall - they are likely busy as they along with most of Chaosium are at the Kraken...

Well, this doesn't seem sufficient a concern to interrupt someone busy at Kraken.  If they happen upon this thread and choose to reply, then fine.  If not, then I'm going to rule no on the grounds that for unknown reasons having to do with the mystical nature of Glorantha, every person who has ever had the idea ultimately died shortly there after when a mysterious flying hula hoop passed over them.  In fact, this may even be one of the God Learner secrets people aren't supposed to know.  Even coming up with the idea gets people killed.

[David Scott]

Here's all three versions for comparison:

So RQ2 says:

Quote

WARDING Range Special Stackable up to 4 points
This spell requires 4 wands as “props.” They must be exactly 15 cm in length, and may be made of light wood. It protects an area of 81 square meters or less from spells cast into it from outside, attacking spirits, or attempts to enter it from characters outside the Warded area. The spell also protects the air space above the area for a height of 3 meters, effectively creating a cube of protection.

The area protected is defended by extension from the positioning of the wands. Each point of Warding functions as 1 point of Countermagic against spells cast from outside the lines of the Warding, 1 point of Spirit Shield against enemy spirits crossing the lines of the Warding, 1 point of Disruption against all enemies crossing the lines of the Warding, and a Detect Enemies spell to determine whether the above spirits and enemies are enemies of the caster.

A sufficiently powerful Detection Blank will allow a character to walk untouched through a Warding spell because the Detect Enemies alert will not be affected. The caster may use this spell to protect an area or an object, rather than himself. The Detect Enemies component will then detect anyone wishing to assault the area, steal an object, or whatever is appropriate to the manner of casting the spell.

If the Warding is stacked to more than 1 point Warding, treat the Disruption spell attack as if Multispell had been cast with it and combine the attacks into one attack and multiple damage value to one hit location.

Any attack spell cast across the lines of the Warding, or any attempt to cross the Warding by an enemy of the caster, will also start an intense keening noise, which should wake all within. The warning noise is not necessary and can be suppressed by the conjuring Priest if he covets sleep more than life.

Multiple point Warding can be used to double or triple the area covered by the Ward, if the user would rather cover area than increase the power of the Countermagic and Disruption. NOTE: The mage with 3 points of Warding can put 1 extra point into the expansion, covering thereby 162 square meters and 1 extra point into the Warding effects, giving the effect of 2 point Countermagic and Disruption.

The Warding spell lasts until the wands are removed and any attempt to remove the wands by anyone other than the caster will trigger the defenses. It can also be dispelled with the appropriate strength of Dispel Magic.

 

RQ3 says

Quote

Warding 1Point Ritual (Enchant) , Stackable, Conditionally Reusable Common

This ritual spell creates an area of safety for those inside. It requires four wands exactly 15 centimeters long as props. The wands can be made of any material. and can be so spaced as to enclose a maximum area of up to 81 square meters. The spell extends into the air for 3 meters, and underground to the depth of the prop stakes.

The activated wands connect invisibly to form a barrier detectable only by magical means. The protection afforded by the Warding is initiated when physical or spirit enemies of the caster cross the barrier, or when a spell is cast across the barrier from the outside. When this happens a loud noise (a keening, whistling, booming, etc.) begins which may be sup- pressed by the casting priest .

Each point of Warding counts as 1 point of Countermagic (see the spirit magic description) against spells cast across the barrier, 2 points of Spirit Resistance (see the sorcery spell description) against outside spirits, and it does as well 1D3 points of damage, ignoring armor, to one hit location of any corporal enemy that crosses the boundary.

Alternatively, the added points of Warding can be used to increase the area protected: an additional point will cover up to another 81m square, 2 more points will cover another 162m square area, and so on.

The Warding spell will remain in effect until the props are removed. Anyone but the caster who attempts to touch the stakes will touch off and be affected by the spell. But after suffering the Warding's effect, the sufferer can then remove the stakes. If the caster pulls up the stakes, he regains the use of his spell with proper prayer. The stakes need not be visible to work.

RQG

Quote

 

WARDING 1 Point Ritual (Enchant), Stackable
This ritual spell creates an area of safety for those inside. It requires four wands as props. The wands can be made of any material and can be so spaced as to enclose a maximum area of up to 100 square meters. The spell extends into the air for 3 meters above the wands, and underground to the depth of the wands.

The activated wands connect invisibly to form a barrier detectable only by magical means. The protection afforded by the Warding is initiated when physical or spirit enemies of the caster cross the barrier, or when a spell is cast across the barrier from the outside. When this happens, a loud noise (a keening, whistling, booming, etc.) begins, which may be suppressed by the casting priest.

Each point of Warding counts as 1 point of Countermagic against spells cast across the barrier, 2 points of Spirit Screen against outside spirits, and does 1D3 points of damage, ignoring armor, to one hit location of any corporal enemy unwise enough to cross the boundary.

Instead of providing additional Countermagic or Spirit Screen, any added points of Warding can be used to increase the area protected: each additional point covers another 100 square meters.

The Warding spell remains in effect until the props are removed. Anyone but the caster that attempts to touch the stakes is affected by the spell. But after suffering the Warding’s effect, the sufferer can then remove the stakes. The stakes need not be visible to work.

 

 

[7Tigers]

3 hours ago, Zit said:

Gondo Holst has a cart protected with a warding spell. It moves, so why not a ring. I think this is a brilliant idea.

Nothing in the text indicates that the Warding spell is functional when cart is moving.
As I understood it when I read Griffin Mountain a long time ago, the Warding spell was for static protection only.
As a GM, as soon as one of the wands moves, I rule that Warding spell ceases then to protect.

It is interesting to see that the RQ2 Companion (included in 2016 RQ2 edition quoted above) indicates

Quote

The caster may use this spell to protect an area or an object, rather than himself.

But it seems RQ3 & RQG ignored the Companion, being just a copy of original RQ2 text...

Edited October 20, 2017 by 7Tigers

[Pentallion]

Okay, 7 Tigers has shown me a way out.  I'll rule that Warding only works when it's not moving.  That infers Warding is a Stasis spell, dependent somewhat on the Stasis rune, but we'll cross that bridge when RQG comes out.

[Psullie]

you got to hand it to your players for seeing that loophole. However I would argue that the Warding spell is based on keeping unwanted visitors out and is therefore defensive magic. The spell uses Detect Enemies to trigger, therefore intention to gain access to the protected area for ill is a requirement of spell. Forcing a warded loop onto a victim does not have this intention

This way you could place it on a wagon or ship and it would work to keep people out but would not work if you were to push the cart on to the victim.

[styopa]

2 hours ago, 7Tigers said:

Nothing in the text indicates that the Warding spell is functional when cart is moving.
As I understood it when I read Griffin Mountain a long time ago, the Warding spell was for static protection only.
As a GM, as soon as one of the wands moves, I rule that Warding spell ceases then to protect.

So his protection could be obviated by someone leaning briefly against one of the wheels (giving the cart a little wiggle)?

Seems like a bit of a glaring loophole in his protective expectations.

[7Tigers]

Obviously, wheels have to be inside the wands, or 1 point of the Warding used to extend the protected area.

[Joerg]

The Cradle Scenario has a contest of Wardings 5, 4 and 3 vs. Warding 3 shelters set up by the defenders of the Cradle. (This rules-mechanical aspect of the battle was skipped in Prince of Sartar, we only get to see the Chain passing through and putting out Pinchining.)

This offers a semi-precedent for pushing a warding into enemies (static to the Cradle vs. static to the river banks). It doesn't tell what happens if one of the wardings is located atop one of the ladders leading down (the Cradle interior apparently has the benefit of a high-power Shield), and if an enterprising attacker enters from below - which would be the equivalent of entering the hoop from below.

[styopa]

57 minutes ago, 7Tigers said:

Obviously, wheels have to be inside the wands, or 1 point of the Warding used to extend the protected area.

I think it's pretty clear (at least by implication) that the wands are always at the corners of the protected area? 

Increasing the area by stacking would, I think, only allow the setup to cover a larger space (ie by moving the wands further apart), not allow the protected area to span beyond the wands physical locations.

I think the fact that it's always 4 runes (granted, nothing says that they have to be a square) would suggest it's primarily an Earth thing.  Earth + Stasis would be a nice symbology suggesting a protective box with a dome atop. 

Or, one could of course flavor the spell to taste: A Yelmic warding might be a single rune-stick, that casts its 'fence of protection' out in a (light/fire/sky) circle.  A warding that might be especially effective against chaos might use 3 sticks in a triangle (Law) shape.

[Pentallion]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Cradle Scenario has a contest of Wardings 5, 4 and 3 vs. Warding 3 shelters set up by the defenders of the Cradle. (This rules-mechanical aspect of the battle was skipped in Prince of Sartar, we only get to see the Chain passing through and putting out Pinchining.)

This offers a semi-precedent for pushing a warding into enemies (static to the Cradle vs. static to the river banks). It doesn't tell what happens if one of the wardings is located atop one of the ladders leading down (the Cradle interior apparently has the benefit of a high-power Shield), and if an enterprising attacker enters from below - which would be the equivalent of entering the hoop from below.

yep, good point.  The Cradle adventurers were not intending harm, they were simply flowing down the river.  Simply being made to move through the warding is enough to set it off.  And motion doesn't invalidate the warding as then, as Styopa said, all you have to do is lean against the wagon to set it in motion.  So we're back to marketing Hula Hoop of Death (tm) to all the Geo stores.  I'm back to thinking God Learner Forbidden Secret.

[Zit]

19 hours ago, 7Tigers said:

Nothing in the text indicates that the Warding spell is functional when cart is moving.
As I understood it when I read Griffin Mountain a long time ago, the Warding spell was for static protection only.
As a GM, as soon as one of the wands moves, I rule that Warding spell ceases then to protect.

and nothing indicates it is not, neither in GM nor in the rules. In GM, nothing mentions that the wagons must be static. It is mentioned that the Jack o' Bears avoid the wagons but without specifying "while static" in any way. The whole wagons glow when a detect magic is cast, and since the spell can be cast to protect "an area or an object" (RQ classic), I strongly tend to consider that the wagons can move while the warding remains on.

So nothing in the rules forbids it, and it is too much game fun to go without it.

[Psullie]

11 hours ago, Pentallion said:

yep, good point.  The Cradle adventurers were not intending harm, they were simply flowing down the river.  Simply being made to move through the warding is enough to set it off.  And motion doesn't invalidate the warding as then, as Styopa said, all you have to do is lean against the wagon to set it in motion.  So we're back to marketing Hula Hoop of Death (tm) to all the Geo stores.  I'm back to thinking God Learner Forbidden Secret.

I disagree, I think the Wardings were placed there to effect any craft attempting to sail past, and the Cradle in sailing over them sets them off, as the target is trying (intention) to cross the warding. Remember that as per the Detect Enemies spell, setting the ward means that the cater must who constitutes an enemy or else it defaults to enemies of the caster. 

The scenario also states that much of the magic in that battle are beyond the scope or standard RuneQuest, so it's not a clear example. 

I would say, if your players want a hullahoop-O-death then they must create a new Rune Spell based on Warding

[Yelm's Light]

6 hours ago, Zit said:

and nothing indicates it is not, neither in GM nor in the rules. In GM, nothing mentions that the wagons must be static. It is mentioned that the Jack o' Bears avoid the wagons but without specifying "while static" in any way. The whole wagons glow when a detect magic is cast, and since the spell can be cast to protect "an area or an object" (RQ classic), I strongly tend to consider that the wagons can move while the warding remains on.

So nothing in the rules forbids it, and it is too much game fun to go without it.

I would have absolutely no compunction about enemies of the PC's soon discovering their tactic and using it against them.  Not a good idea for a player to try to blow up game balance.

But then, as stated above, I'd never let it get that far.