What was Belintar up to?

[Grievous]

So, the question isn't so much the oft' repeated who IS Belintar, but what was he doing?

I'd like to think that I'm relatively well-versed in Glorantha, but compared to some of the veterans around here my knowledge is only very newly gained and it's trying to wrap my head around things like this when it shows. One of the more odd things is that what the heck was Belintar doing - or trying to do - in the Holy Country? Thus I come to you for explanations, theories, conjecture, or what have you.

I can see some hallmarks of what he was doing, but the gist of it escapes me. There's six "sixths", fitting with six elements, with Six Guardians, all doing something. Why was he a "patchwork god", yet why was he more than the sum of his parts, though? Something also tells me that the fact that the Only Old One was there (and why he had to be removed) is part of the equation. Perhaps the region itself seems special somehow. How do the governors fit in - do they have a magical role in this?

So, lots of questions. I really got more into thinking about all this after the Prince of Sartar comic, but it didn't really make it all the much clearer to me.

Then, of course, there is Belintar's nature itself. He is certainly using a serial immortality which is very similar to the Red Emperor. What exactly is the connection between Belintar's approach and the Red Goddess' aside from the fact that both seem to tap into the Moon rune? He seems to be striving for godhood, yes, but perhaps quite not as megalomaniacally.

Oh, and what was that Larnsting doing there and why how come it pissed off the Sartarites? Is this why there have been no Larnstings of late? What was the Larnsting's role in the patchwork?

This isn't really only to sate my idle curiosity. I find the high level adaptive meta-magic/philosophy that happens between some of bigger movers'n'shakers very interesting, but difficult to grasp in an actionable manner. And our gaming group tends to go for the high concept stuff, so I'd like to get my noodle wrapped around the concepts enough that I can toy with them. I mean, if all you wanna do is crawl in some ditch in rural Sartar, more power to you, but I think there's some room for higher power level gaming in Glorantha as well. I'd like to create Gods and Goddesses, do some experimental Heroquesting, and toy around with... well, whatever Belintar's doing, as well, but there doesn't seem to be as big of a toolbox for GMs or PCs for that kind of thing in the Gloranthan arsenal at the moment.

Sorry for not offering much substance outside of a (huge) bunch of questions, but this topic is one that stumps me.

[Roko Joko]

He was trying to fill in a place on a map where Greg randomly wrote "The Holy Country" because he thought it sounded cool.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

So, the question isn't so much the oft' repeated who IS Belintar, but what was he doing?

Belintar was the bringer of a manifestation of the magical Otherworld (as mapped in the "Spiral Map" in Arcane Lore) in the populations and lands of Kethaela.

It doesn't seem like this Otherworld ever was a Godtime representation of Kethaela, but rather an expression of the Godworld beyond the normal Heroplane (which basically is a visit in pre-Dawn myths more or less locatable on the map of the world).

The Spiral Map of the Godworld might even be a "pre-collision of the worlds" expression, catering to an idea endemic in the Hero Wars/HeroQuest 1 era and in the books of the Stafford Library. Basically the missing northern, Theist component that would complete the other three Revealed Mythologies approaches from a Separate Worlds model, one never explored because on his explorations of the Lunar Empire Greg lost himself in Pelorian weirdness rather than providing a unified Genertelan approach.

So, whatever roots of Creation the Lord of the Harshax has been reaching back to, it is Deep Heroquesting, different from the Green Age explorations that get hinted at in Entekosiad or shown in the Eleven Lights Quest, but as fundamental. And possibly a place Arkat never visited.

Belintar fears the return of the Destroyer (as per Prince of Sartar webcomic), and we are made to think of Arkat. I rather think of Gbaji, the bi-directional mask between Arkat and Nysalor, and, since Arkat was pushing back the Bright Empire, carried before Arkat into the lands of Kethaela. Never mind that Nysalor's enveloping Bright Empire altered the magic of the land, too. Arkat's advance destroyed those alterations, and probably some of the underlying mythical strata altered by the Bright Empire was destroyed, too.

 

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

I can see some hallmarks of what he was doing, but the gist of it escapes me. There's six "sixths", fitting with six elements, with Six Guardians, all doing something.

IMO the Sixths reflect the radiants of the Spiral Map, with five elemental sections and one mystical or empty (Meldek? although I hate that term) section (corresponding to God Forgot).

Moon is not an elemental radiant on that map, but manifest in the inner part of that map as three mountains (white, red and blue) and a missing black mountain that would be in the gap. That means that a Lunar component is immanent in all the other elemental radiants (even Storm) in that magical Otherworld of the Holy Country.

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

Why was he a "patchwork god", yet why was he more than the sum of his parts, though?

Basically, Belintar re-created this magical structure by acquiring powers from each of the six hitherto un-united populations of the Holy Country. The Kingdom of Night did not really include the Rightarm or Leftarm archipelagos, and the God Learners never managed to conquer the Shadow Plateau.

I am convinced that Jar-eel, coming from the Pelorian traditions as outlined in Entekosiad and Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, would have been rather ignorant of this special magical Otherworld which contributed the part of Belintar that she wouldn't perceive, and neither Harrek, not in 1616 and not in 1624 when plundering the City of Wonders.

Part of Belintar, and a good portion of his capital, underwent some partial form of utuma through Jar-eel's interference, trapping the essence of Belintar not composed of those Sixths in that Otherworld, along with the previous winners of the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death resident there.

 

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

Something also tells me that the fact that the Only Old One was there (and why he had to be removed) is part of the equation.

Belintar wasn't able to force the Only Old One and the Storm Sixth into his scheme without much reducing them. At some time the theory went that Belintar placed an Iron Sword in the Only Old One, preventing his Healing, and the webcomic has Belintar chaining the spirit of Freedom (and Change) in order to control at least part of the Storm worshipping Heortlanders, much reducing the magic of the Larnsti.

 

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

Perhaps the region itself seems special somehow. How do the governors fit in - do they have a magical role in this?

The governors do have a magical role in this - their ritual obligations maintain the five elemental and the non-elemental Guardians of the Sixths.

 

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

So, lots of questions. I really got more into thinking about all this after the Prince of Sartar comic, but it didn't really make it all the much clearer to me.

Then, of course, there is Belintar's nature itself. He is certainly using a serial immortality which is very similar to the Red Emperor. What exactly is the connection between Belintar's approach and the Red Goddess' aside from the fact that both seem to tap into the Moon rune? He seems to be striving for godhood, yes, but perhaps quite not as megalomaniacally.

The Red Emperor Takenegi was a manifestation of the Egi on the Red Moon. Until Shen Seleris destroyed the original Takenegi's ability to return in his original shape/mask, this immortality was more of an obnoxious reappearance of the same entity regardless how often you squashed and exterminated it. The different masks of Moonson are a much more recent development, and one might accuse the first of these masks to have imitated Belintar's established method. The details of Sheng's wars against the Lunars haven't been published, and I doubt that they are hidden in the extremely limited collections of Greg's Vault that went to maybe two dozen top supporters of the Guide kickstarter.

 

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

Oh, and what was that Larnsting doing there and why how come it pissed off the Sartarites? Is this why there have been no Larnstings of late? What was the Larnsting's role in the patchwork?

Good question. That Larnsting (in the meaning of an expression of the Celestial Court entity Larnste) is an expression of the freedom virtue of the Orlanthi which is also tied to Orlanth's ability to Create.

Then there are the Larnsti, holy people among the Hendriki tribe who embody these virtues of Orlanth and Larnste and who used to wield considerable magical power. History of the Heortling Peoples names several powerful Larnsti for the end of the Gbaji Wars and the early Imperial Age, several of them becoming kings of the Hendriki and the adjoined Foreigner Folk (Kerofinelan exiles, Esrolian exiles, Pelaskites and Esvulari).

At one time it was stated that the Sheriffs of Heortland wielded some Larnsti powers through Belintar (and presumably that chained entity). In all that time, only one free Larnsti emerged, and he manifested his powers outside of the Hendriking lands, in Dragon Pass. That individual was Sartar.

 

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

This isn't really only to sate my idle curiosity. I find the high level adaptive meta-magic/philosophy that happens between some of bigger movers'n'shakers very interesting, but difficult to grasp in an actionable manner. And our gaming group tends to go for the high concept stuff, so I'd like to get my noodle wrapped around the concepts enough that I can toy with them. I mean, if all you wanna do is crawl in some ditch in rural Sartar, more power to you, but I think there's some room for higher power level gaming in Glorantha as well. I'd like to create Gods and Goddesses, do some experimental Heroquesting, and toy around with... well, whatever Belintar's doing, as well, but there doesn't seem to be as big of a toolbox for GMs or PCs for that kind of thing in the Gloranthan arsenal at the moment.

So, in this light, you will want to explore that Magical Version of the Holy Country, a heroquesting realm of highest stakes that may eat up the questers, cripple their magic or at least aspects thereof, and at the same time may open other magical powers to them.

Whenever Belintar's latest body died, dozens of individuals in the Holy Country would be transported into that realm, struggling to reinforce their personal powers and to acquire relevant powers they did not bring into the Tournament, wrestling them from other contestants or picking them up from challenges the magical environment poses.

I always thought it would be a waste if all (or almost all) of the participants would emerge burnt out of all of their powers, so I thought long and hard how to bring back questers changed.

IMO one of the first "victims" of questing in that magical version of the Holy Country was Andrin, the Hendriki King "slain" by Belintar, and returned a year after his death, significantly altered - missing a significant part of his soul (perhaps that Larnsting chained to Belintar, bestowed on him through his coronation as King of the Hendriki?), but magically and physically as powerful as before, only now a true follower of the Godking.

Orlanthi Taliban/Fox Trumpeteers have maligned the returned King Andrin as "Zombie King". IMO this has been read in a wrong way - Andrin emerged as much alive as any other Kethaelan. His Kingship was crippled, though, a most significant part chained to Belintar, and rather than bestowed to the King channeled in trickles through his deputies, the Sheriffs.

But Andrin gained significantly during this experience, too, compensating the loss of that Freedom spirit of his kingship. He would have gained a deep insight into the greater magic of Belintar's Holy Country, and manifesting that multipart-made-into-more--than-its-sum ability.

I think that participants of the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death all gain some of this magic, which might make up for the loss of a specific (and self-defining) ability they lose to the "There Can Be Only One" (Highlander) concept of the Tournament where questers eliminate one another from the Tournament. In other words, you cannot leave the Tournament without losing some of your original and acquired power, as the remaining candidates accumulate the sum of magical properties that make up Belintar. When the winner's body has become compatible to the sum of what makes up Belintar, he is released to an Otherworld/Godworld existance retaining his Will (his ability to effect Change there) while Belintar takes along that which ties together the Sixths plus the six major and countless minor manifestations of the Holy Country into the City of Wonders, giving the next body of the Godking, for a while.

The "losers" of the Tournament - those who return from it with powers - would IMO make a cadre of Holy Country agents and facilitators supporting Belintar's rule in some way, a hero band which rarely if ever assembles completely but quite constantly on detached duty.

After Jar-eel removed the Lunar power manifesting the center of the magical Otherworld of the Holy Country, that power could no longer be obtained by a participant in the 1616/17 tournament, resulting in no quester returning hale or sound, and more significantly failing to produce a new body for the Godking.

Somehow, the six governors - often given the chance to participate in the Tournament when initiating the ritual that starts it - did not participate, or if they did, they didn't survive. I used to think that the Governor of Heortland would have participated, but History of the Heortling Peoples and the Guide tell a different story. Hendira certainly remained around after 1617, so she probably sent in some other high priestess of Ernalda.

 

It should be possible to enter that magical version of the Holy Country outside of a Tournament. Entering it through the Tournament rites will most likely result in death or spiritual dismemberment without much if any gain in compensation. Bypassing the Tournament through similar rites may put questers in a weaker or harsher starting position, may still sear of some of their selves (in game terms expressed through runes from their initiation), or alter existing runes in their expression, as it did with King Andrin's Storm and Mastery, and replacing his Mobility/Change with something else. (Possibly Moon...)

 

Gaining a knowledge of the Tournament grounds through preparatory questing there might open the way for a return of the Lord of the Harshax, if your players are inclined to go that way. If you know some French, check out Philippe Sigaud's group's experience on their (non-canonical, time-line-ignoring and therefore glorious) campaign to bring back the Godking. Some of the material on 

http://kethaela.free.fr/

is available in English, too.

 

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

Sorry for not offering much substance outside of a (huge) bunch of questions, but this topic is one that stumps me.

All of the above is my personal speculation, extremely likely to be contested by other regulars, but I think this offers a way of approaching what makes up Belintar while providing questing material.

There is hardly any information on the features of that magical Holy Country, the map in Arcane Lore has more or less colorful place (i.e. encounter) names which you would have to flesh out in creative ways, and possibly in different ways for each visit there.

I said above that this might be territory without much if any Arkati presence, so maybe Arkati training (whether in Ralios, Arkat's Hold in the Esrolian North March, or through other sources) might be a game changer when questing there. I feel that the God Learners did damage the interface to Kethaela a lot during their stranglehold on parts of Kethaela, but they never penetrated Kethaela's deepest roots, at best creating a secondary access like the Caladra and Aurelion cult at the Low Temple.

There are sealed-off or haunted remnants of God Learner activity in Kethaela. It isn't clear how much Belintar used these scars in the magical landscape to punch through to the special Otherworld, and how much the God Learner activities there may have required the Lord of the Harshax to become this re-possessing, fast-aging semi-immortal. Researching Delecti (who does a similar, much less palatable returning game using corpses) might be a good side-activity for curious questers.

Lots of potential there. Have fun with it!

[Pentallion]

4 hours ago, Grievous said:

 I think there's some room for higher power level gaming in Glorantha as well. I'd like to create Gods and Goddesses, do some experimental Heroquesting, and toy around with... well, whatever Belintar's doing, as well, but there doesn't seem to be as big of a toolbox for GMs or PCs for that kind of thing in the Gloranthan arsenal at the moment.

 

I agree.  That area of roleplaying is especially deficient right now.  I hope it opens up a lot more with the upcoming releases.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Grievous said:

So, the question isn't so much the oft' repeated who IS Belintar, but what was he doing?

We have very little understanding of the Holy Country prior to the arrival of the Seas.  There's some sense of the division of Esrolia among various goddesses, but even their background is unclear.  

Somewhere I remember seeing it suggested that Belintar was recreating the Golden Age of Kethaela when all the elements were ordered and in Harmony.  The chaining of the Larnsting (i.e. Movement) is part of the maintenance of Order (e.g. much like Yelm ruled the world with order).  Whether this mythical Golden Age actually existed is unclear.  But to at least achieve the manifestation of it, Belintar had to unite the elements under (or within) his God-soul.  The Only Old One represented a different Truth of mythical Kethaela and had to be defeated for Belintar to reach his goal.  The Pedestal raised by Belintar is very reminiscent of the Footstool of Yelm.  The City of Wonders something like the Celestial City (including connections by magical roads).

[scott-martin]

20 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Belintar was recreating the Golden Age of Kethaela

One key that turns a lot of this may be his known interest in the quasi-historical "silver" age that seems unusually prominent in the region's mythic orientation if not unique to it. Many of these entities and cult roles (arguably up to and including the OOO) don't really make it into the wider theyalan mythic diaspora but instead linger as purely local fixtures within the country that is holy. Much like the Belintar cult itself. This land is special.

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, Grievous said:

I can see some hallmarks of what he was doing, but the gist of it escapes me. There's six "sixths", fitting with six elements, with Six Guardians, all doing something. Why was he a "patchwork god", yet why was he more than the sum of his parts, though? Something also tells me that the fact that the Only Old One was there (and why he had to be removed) is part of the equation. Perhaps the region itself seems special somehow. How do the governors fit in - do they have a magical role in this?

I feel for this that there is a bigger picture pervading Glorantha. Belintar and other powerful movers and shakers are able to do a number of "basic moves" with the magical fabric of Glorantha. For example, land, peoples and things can have a magical orientation. This in turn can be harnessed by those who can "see" it (HeroQuesting) or define it in some way (ritually or ceremonially). Glorantha has a very real cumulative effect on a magical level, you can build one thing on the top of another. Arkat cumulatively gained magics, Argrath does the same. Webs and nets are another magical theme, Arachne Solara drew the world together with her net, Belintar made a web of sixths of land and identified their powers and balenced  himself at the centre. Dismemberment is another "move", and then hiding the separate pieces so they cannot be put back together again as those pieces have power. Cyclic time is another theme. Not just reincarnation although that clearly exists, but as you mentioned the Red Emperor and Belintar both do it - perhaps as a moon aspect.

6 hours ago, Grievous said:

I think there's some room for higher power level gaming in Glorantha as well. I'd like to create Gods and Goddesses, do some experimental Heroquesting, and toy around with... well, whatever Belintar's doing, as well, but there doesn't seem to be as big of a toolbox for GMs or PCs for that kind of thing in the Gloranthan arsenal at the moment.

It easy with HeroQuest. If you want to play the Gods - just build them:

I'm playing a god in a Heroquest game although not Glorantha. I'm playing Vishnu in the style of Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light. It's not too difficult to put gods together, although I'd use more descriptive Keywords instead of the runes:

Orlanth

Violence is always an option 1W

Make amends 1W

etc.

 

 

[Roko Joko]

Belintar is the only one who could see the hexes.

[metcalph]

13 hours ago, Grievous said:

Oh, and what was that Larnsting doing there and why how come it pissed off the Sartarites? Is this why there have been no Larnstings of late? What was the Larnsting's role in the patchwork?

The motion rune was imprisoned to prevent Belintar's nature from changing.  The Larnsti are Wind Lords (Sartar King of Heroes p126) who may or may not be affected by this within the boundaries of the Holy Country.

As to the Bigger Question of what Belintar is doing, my opinion is that the actual body of Belintar is the local heroplane in the Holy Country.  It is easier to access and more magical.  Something similar was done in Orlanthland when they created the Proximate Holy Realm (History of the Heortling Peoples p83 and elsewhere and this later became a foundation for the EWF's magics).  What distinguishes Belintar from the earlier efforts is that he is the Holy Realm and desires participation within him so that he becomes stronger.  He admits all people (and in some cases compels them).  Perhaps he was attempting to achieve a critical mass of awareness so that he becomes a Great God but was too cautious to gamble as the Red Goddess did.  

 

[Pentallion]

He was Stasis.  He trapped change.  He knew one day Harrek, bearing Death, would come for him as it came for Yelm.  Then change got freed and when that happened, the Hero Wars began.  He was single handedly keeping the Hero Wars at bay.

[MOB]

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

He was Stasis.  He trapped change.  He knew one day Harrek, bearing Death, would come for him as it came for Yelm.  Then change got freed and when that happened, the Hero Wars began.  He was single handedly keeping the Hero Wars at bay.

Even if this isn't actually so, a lot of present day (1628) Kethaelans probably believe it. 

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

He was Stasis.  He trapped change.  He knew one day Harrek, bearing Death, would come for him as it came for Yelm.  Then change got freed and when that happened, the Hero Wars began.

I would disagree that he was Stasis. Given his cyclical reincarnation, I like to suggest the idea that he was starting to wane, his balance of his magical bases were slender. It only needed a few upsets and he would implode. The world was moving on and new forces that he couldn't include were appearing. Jar-eel unbalanced him, Harrek was the big destabiliser - both wanted his power sources for their own reasons. Belintar likely knew this was going to happen. He knew it couldn't continue. In the grand tradition of story and TV tropes, he likely prepared and escape route that lets him come back in the next age.

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

He was single handedly keeping the Hero Wars at bay

Im sure he knew this was coming. Ultimately the Holy Country is flooded when the sea rises after the trolls block Magasta's pool. Belintar couldn't save the land so he bowed out. Like Ragnarok, I'd like to think Belintar is a born new god in the Fourth Age to oversee the New Holy Country. 

[jajagappa]

57 minutes ago, David Scott said:

In the grand tradition of story and TV tropes, he likely prepared and escape route that lets him come back in the next age.

And thus he also escaped the destruction wrought by Argrath, and becomes the foundation for the new Golden Age that is the aftermath of the Hero Wars. :-)

 

59 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Belintar couldn't save the land so he bowed out. Like Ragnarok, I'd like to think Belintar is a born new god in the Fourth Age to oversee the New Holy Country

I personally like this.  And would make an interesting premise to initiate a Fourth Age campaign.

[kaydet]

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

I would disagree that he was Stasis. Given his cyclical reincarnation, I like to suggest the idea that he was starting to wane, his balance of his magical bases were slender.

Isn't he like Sedenya in that way: though he changes form, he is always Belintar -- and isn't that a kind of Stasis?

Though Sedenya has many names and many shapes through Her lives, She is always One.

Edited November 4, 2017 by kaydet

[Pentallion]

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

I would disagree that he was Stasis. Given his cyclical reincarnation, I like to suggest the idea that he was starting to wane, his balance of his magical bases were slender. It only needed a few upsets and he would implode. The world was moving on and new forces that he couldn't include were appearing. Jar-eel unbalanced him, Harrek was the big destabiliser - both wanted his power sources for their own reasons. Belintar likely knew this was going to happen. He knew it couldn't continue. In the grand tradition of story and TV tropes, he likely prepared and escape route that lets him come back in the next age.

Im sure he knew this was coming. Ultimately the Holy Country is flooded when the sea rises after the trolls block Magasta's pool. Belintar couldn't save the land so he bowed out. Like Ragnarok, I'd like to think Belintar is a born new god in the Fourth Age to oversee the New Holy Country. 

Ah, but the moons cycles give only the illusion of change.  The moon is still there.  It always returns to full.  Thats a necessity for Belintar to establish Stasis in the Age of Time.  He can't do it without the moon.

[soltakss]

For a long time, I have thought there were many similarities between Belintar and the Red Goddess/Red Emperor:

• They were both all things to all men, proving themselves time and time again
• Belintar and the Red Emperor change bodies but their souls remain the same
• They are each at the head of a religious hierarchy
• They each rule a union of disparate states

 

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, kaydet said:

Isn't he like Sedenya in that way: though he changes form, he is always Belintar -- and isn't that a kind of Stasis?

Though Sedenya has many names and many shapes through Her lives, She is always One.

Sedenya used another "move" the many into one. retaining the aspects of the many. Belintar seems to remain the one, but sequentially changes physical form. The Red Emperor uses this "move" as well. As for Stasis - I'm still not convinced:

HeroQuest Glorantha 

Quote

Stasis
Meaning: Stasis, immobility, permanence, unchanging The various names for this Rune illustrate the ideas behind it. It is clearly connected with the art of alchemy and the dwarves. They claim that this is the First Rune, for it provided the foundation from which everything else was created, or else provided the foundation of hard laws that were used to overcome the forces of Chaos. Personality Traits: stubborn, inflexible, exacting Incompatible with: Movement

RQG

Quote

Stasis: The various names for this Rune are the ideas behind it. This Rune is closely connected with the art of alchemy, and the dwarves. They claim that this is the First Rune, for it provided the foundation from which all else was created.

Quote

To be strong with the Stasis Rune is to be resolute and unchanging. Such an adventurer may be described kindly as determined or dogged, and less kindly as doctrinaire or obstinate.

Quote

This Rune masters stability, inactivity, and motionlessness. It is the opposite of Movement.

As for the Moon Rune

7 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Ah, but the moons cycles give only the illusion of change.  The moon is still there.  It always returns to full.  Thats a necessity for Belintar to establish Stasis in the Age of Time.  He can't do it without the moon.

Belintar's association with the Moon rune doesn't have anything to do with the Red (Lunar) Moon or the Blue Moon. There were and have been many different moon forms in Glorantha (like the moon association and cyclicality of the Twinstars before their synchronisation with the Red Moon). Although I think Belintar has a cyclic side to his powers, its not the same cyclicality as the Red Moon. I'm not sure exactly what it is but it could be as few as two "phases" - Waxing and waning. He might not exhibit a Full or Dark moon at all.

My take is that Moon balance is his power not the unchanging stability of stasis. PoS offers us:

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/40-the-six-guardians/

Belintar is very elemental in his make up. Some of his form is clearly Mastery. His Eye that Pierces the Veil has the Air rune at the centre. I'd like to think that his triangular lattice structure is the Law rune with a dot (not the Hero Wars era Beast rune) and denotes the main sorcery School of God Forgot.

[jongjom]

On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:06 AM, MOB said:

Even if this isn't actually so, a lot of present day (1628) Kethaelans probably believe it. 

Present day is 1628? I thought RQG it was 1625, same as 13th Age Glorantha? HQ seems to be set whenever it want to be! 

[Joerg]

On the topic of the coming flood, I think that Belintar provided for this. I think he had two plans to deal with this (apart from evacuating folk to high grounds).

One plan was the tidal magic which raises the City of Wonders above the Choralinthor Sea. Why not think about this as an ongoing magic, adjusting itself to the water level? And I see the possibility that Belintar would have prepared "rescue sites" near other important holy centers of Kethaela.

The other plan are the Fish Roads which allow air breathers to enter the waters. There are three entry points to these roads outside of the City of Wonders - Nochet, Backford, and Seapolis. Belintar could have ordered an exodus into these roads, and a pilgrimage beyond Deeper, to petition the Sea Gods to return the land.

And then there is the escape by boats. That may have been one of his motivations to support the Dormal ventures.

With Belintar gone, the plan of raising parts of the land probably cannot be done any more, although player heroes are more than welcome to quest the Tournament Grounds for this magic and apply it to their community. Or to quest for the Fish Road magic and make their place such a nexus, welcoming the invading waters.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

With Belintar gone, the plan of raising parts of the land probably cannot be done any more, although player heroes are more than welcome to quest the Tournament Grounds for this magic and apply it to their community.

I'd expect Samastina, with a vision of what's coming, to initiate something to save the land.  Might be quests to free Veskarthan from enslavement by the dwarfs.  Might be quests to find the Old Earth gods (or endow a regiment of men with the powers of Vogarth).  Or maybe even seeking the aid of the Green Dragon!  But there are a lot of possibilities here for game play.

[MOB]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

On the topic of the coming flood, I think that Belintar provided for this. I think he had two plans to deal with this (apart from evacuating folk to high grounds).

Something like Belintar's Building Wall could also be effective at keeping out the rising waters too. Maybe the secrets of doing its magic again are hidden in the City of Wonders?

(This would put an alternative interpretation of one of the prophecies of the Enervi Sybils in the Cave of Serpents at Sacred Ezel, that one day "the dykes of Esrolia will save the Holy Country".)

[Pentallion]

7 hours ago, MOB said:

"the dykes of Esrolia will save the Holy Country".)

So many unPC ways to make a joke there.....

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, MOB said:

Something like Belintar's Building Wall could also be effective at keeping out the rising waters too. Maybe the secrets of doing its magic again are hidden in the City of Wonders?

You would need quite a bit more of a wall against that flood - according to King of Sartar it sends the Korthanings fleeing into Solthoni Valley, in southern Tarsh/the Grazelands. That's more than 2000 feet, the same general elevation as the Heortland Plateau, Duck Point or Wilmskirk,. A Manarlarvus-like dome or a "bubble of air" solution like at Erenplose might be less demanding.

That's only pertinent if it is a passive flood, however - an active flood could rise above the flat land in a jellyfish-like bulge, as happened to the Rockwoods in the Flood Age (Early Storm Age), and a "tidal wave" could sweep hundreds of miles inland if backed by sufficient power.

Orlanth has a pretty good track record dealing with active waters, but I have no idea how good much his storms will do against a "blocked drain" effect.

Maybe the "easiest" way to deal with this would be to take over one of the Firebergs and collide it with that ice.

[davecake]

FWIW, I remain fairly convinced that Belintars Moon connections are via the Right Arm islands, and those connections are strongly Blue Moon connected as the deity of tidal powers. I think the geography of the Right Arms is that a lot of it is tidal flats. 

I do think the sort of immortality through group consciousness that both Belintar and the Red Emperor practice is something that requires Illumination, and probably deeper mystic insight beyond that. It requires giving up attachment to the ego, which is a classic high mystic attainment, and then probably magical efforts beyond that. 

[soltakss]

 

On 11/6/2017 at 12:30 PM, Joerg said:

You would need quite a bit more of a wall against that flood - according to King of Sartar it sends the Korthanings fleeing into Solthoni Valley, in southern Tarsh/the Grazelands. That's more than 2000 feet, the same general elevation as the Heortland Plateau, Duck Point or Wilmskirk,. A Manarlarvus-like dome or a "bubble of air" solution like at Erenplose might be less demanding.

 

I think that a flood of the magnitude hinted at in the Hero Wars would be of the order of the floods in the God Time, those that reduced the mountains of Dragon pass to islands. A wall won;t stop that, or will delay it until it goes over the top.

That's only pertinent if it is a passive flood, however - an active flood could rise above the flat land in a jellyfish-like bulge, as happened to the Rockwoods in the Flood Age (Early Storm Age), and a "tidal wave" could sweep hundreds of miles inland if backed by sufficient power.

I agree, these floods would be catastrophic in nature and only stopped by Heroes.

 

Orlanth has a pretty good track record dealing with active waters, but I have no idea how good much his storms will do against a "blocked drain" effect.

I don't think Orlanth's Quests would help against the blockage, rather they would help by blowing the waters back. The Thunder Brothers stopped the waters when combatting Worcha, for example, so that might allow Orlanthi heroes to temporarily stop the Flood from covering some lands.

 

Maybe the "easiest" way to deal with this would be to take over one of the Firebergs and collide it with that ice.

Stopping the blockage would be the best way of stopping the Flood permanantly. Breaking the ice up, perhaps by sending True Giants against it, Firebergs would work, using Kalikos might work, putting a huge object on one side to tip it over might work as well. However, when the block if ice goes into Magasta's Pool, would it reappear again, in the same manner as the Firebergs?