1652 Great Flood

[David Scott]

On 08/11/2017 at 4:32 PM, jongjom said:

So it's a whopper.

At the "Break" around 1630, two bergs are produced together they appear about half as big again as the Wastes. They travel south and crash into old trade and Old and New Vadeli and scour them from the world. They start breaking up around 1640 (the mother of Monsters seems to be part of this along with some sort of "burning monster") the three remaining pieces head in different directions. One heads towards the rising Dwarf cube in the south west, another crashes into Jrustela destroying the northern coastal areas, the last heads to Magasta's pool (with scoured off Brithini and Dragonships from Brithos...). They are only a 100-200 miles or so across now. I have vague memories of trolls on the icebergs as well. Also before going down the hole it gets stuck on the island at the event horizon of the pool - the one that the dwarves are using for the capstan. I vaguely remember that work parties free the berg before it sheers the island off and the cable... Finally Magasta's pool is blocked causing the waters to rise. It's only when the ice melts that the waters recede. "But by them all the world's costal cities have been wiped out" - This Stafford guy sure has an epic imagination....

 

[David Scott]

Some of this is covered in the Black Dragon Mountain Pictoglyphs in the Guide page 747.

[MOB]

On 08/11/2017 at 8:09 PM, Yelm's Light said:

So long Sun County and Pavis, welcome to the Big Muddle...

Hey, the people of Pavis know just what's needed to ride out a massive flood...

[jajagappa]

34 minutes ago, MOB said:

Hey, the people of Pavis know just what's needed to ride out a massive flood...

So did Anaxial!  Time for a new Ark!  Gather the animals, the plants, and all life to preserve...

[Yelm's Light]

...and don't mind the giant baby sleeping on deck...

[boztakang]

also, if when the waters recede, you could park it just-so here on Blackorm Mountain, right next to Cliffhome, that would be very lovely, thank you! :urp!:

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, boztakang said:

also, if when the waters recede, you could park it just-so here on Blackorm Mountain, right next to Cliffhome, that would be very lovely, thank you! :urp!:

a real smorgasbord there ;-)

[jongjom]

A few thoughts 

- How do the Heroes get wind of this so, so early to prepare and deal with the truly monumental event? Smacks of the breaking of Time. Give them each a Chaos or Dragonewt Rune for their troubles? 

- The Heroes just might be distracted by events elsewhere (there's a war goin' on ya know) that look like they will cause The End of the World as We Know It. (Or don't worry about reawakened Dragons and Chaos consorting gods? After all what problems are they going to create? Argrath? Yeah, well leave him to get on with all that new weird stuff. It's not like he will do any harm to the Cosmos. etc. etc.)

- It might not be just one flood. 

- Well done for stopping the (first) flood Heroes. Now you're living on the Land that Survived how will you deal with the masses invading from parts that were not so protected? Because we all know that all those guys are our Very Best Mates. All live in Harmony and make it the Green Age again?  

- Who says the icebergs are undefended? 

- Well done for stopping the icebergs Heroes. Do you realise that your action helped at least one of the other World Ending Events? People have come to ask you why you are aiding the destruction of their world, and they're not very happy.

 

So much fun to be had!!

 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, jongjom said:

- How do the Heroes get wind of this so, so early to prepare and deal with the truly monumental event? Smacks of the breaking of Time. Give them each a Chaos or Dragonewt Rune for their troubles? 

Seers of Enervi; mad prophets; ancient prophecies; sightings from the Boat Planet; whispers from the Earth Witch; shamanic or mystic visions; lost words carried on forgotten winds...

Any of these great rituals, requiring years of preparation, seem to pull on the threads of Arachne Solara's web.

3 hours ago, jongjom said:

- The Heroes just might be distracted by events elsewhere (there's a war goin' on ya know) that look like they will cause The End of the World as We Know It.

Depends on where your heroes are.  KoS is all focused on Dragon Pass, Saird, and parts of the Lunar Empire and the Wastes.  We don't know Harrekssaga, though it overlaps some with Argrathssaga.  We don't know what's going on in the Holy Country or Maniria.  We have hints of struggles with the Elder Races (e.g. the Reforestation).  But there's a lot of places from which heroes can get involved in stemming the Flood.

3 hours ago, jongjom said:

- Well done for stopping the (first) flood Heroes. Now you're living on the Land that Survived how will you deal with the masses invading from parts that were not so protected?

Send them off to Kylerela next time it docks nearby.

[MOB]

On 09/11/2017 at 4:23 AM, Yelm's Light said:

Prax, however, isn't the Holy Country.  The Zola Fel valley would have to be near the top of the list of flood areas, although the relative flatness of the plains above the level of the valley might mitigate the depth of flooding beyond that.  I still don't see any way that the Sun Dome Temple or the Big Rubble wouldn't be swamped, or access severely limited for non-aquatic races.

The River of Cradles valley is devastated by an earlier flood, in 1622 - though the waters come from the opposite direction:

Flood follows Winter

Several days after Count Solanthos was burned, a great inundation swept down the River of Cradles valley, flooding parts of Pavis County, the Rubble, and then beyond to Sun County; these were the waters that helped Invictus contain Daga at Highwater Gorge. Lhankor Mhy scholars later concurred with Hector the Wise that the ice and snow in the Rockwoods never had a chance to melt in the Great Winter, and the Zola Fel and its mountain streams and tributaries must have frozen over. This all changed when the Windstop suddenly ended, sending the entire spring melt downstream in a vast flood, wreaking destruction from Boathouse Ruins as far as the Great Bog.

In Pavis, good progress had been made rebuilding the Lunar Bridge after the giant cradle had smashed through its central span. The construction work formed a chokepoint for the surging waters, but was eventually swept away. Floodwaters poured into the Rubble, quickly breaking the banks and inundating much of the northern side of the ruins. For a while, Badside outside the walls and Zebra Fort within became island refuges, and the rising waters forced many angry trolls out of their cellars and hidey-holes in the Troll Stronglands.

The Great Corvée

For several weeks, a great sheet of water spread far over the flatlands of Pavis County and the breadbasket of Sun County, causing further misery for the people. But when the floodwaters finally receded, they saw Zola Fel had left them with a gift: the fields were now covered in a thick layer of fertile silt. It was too late in the year for planting, so the hungry times continued, though the farmers all agreed that the next planting season offered incredible promise . In the meantime famine was kept at bay by the grateful elves, who shared the miraculous bounty from the Garden with the people of Pavis and the Sun Dome. Only in the distant Grantlands was there true starvation in the River of Cradles valley after that.

When the waters abated, there was much to be done to take advantage of the precious soil deposited by the flood. Vega Goldbreath as Guardian led the efforts to repair the damage in the Lands of the Sun. Using an ancient tattered scroll from the temple archives depicting the fabled Gods Wall in distant Dara Happa, Vega evoked the story of the Ten Sons and Servants of Lodril. The entire population was mobilized into a Great Corvée, with even Light Sons and priests putting their hands to mattock and spade. Although initially scandalized to see the Light Lady taking on the role of Morkartos the Foreman, clad only in a kilt, in a remarkably short time the people cleared away tremendous quantities of debris, dug out irrigation channels and repaired the riverbanks. Meanwhile, Penta Goldbreath formed a Ty Kora Tek sisterhood with others sharing her affliction to help the many restless ghosts and vengeful wraiths from Great Winter find their solace.

There'd be no precious silt left behind after the flood of 1652 though, quite the opposite.

Edited November 12, 2017 by MOB

[Yelm's Light]

39 minutes ago, MOB said:

The River of Cradles valley is devastated by an earlier flood, in 1622 - though the waters come from the opposite direction:

Flood follows Winter

Several days after Count Solanthos was burned, a great inundation swept down the River of Cradles valley, flooding parts of Pavis County, the Rubble, and then beyond to Sun County; these were the waters that helped Invictus contain Daga at Highwater Gorge. Lhankor Mhy scholars later concurred with Hector the Wise that the ice and snow in the Rockwoods never had a chance to melt in the Great Winter, and the Zola Fel and its mountain streams and tributaries must have frozen over. This all changed when the Windstop suddenly ended, sending the entire spring melt downstream in a vast flood, wreaking destruction from Boathouse Ruins as far as the Great Bog.

In Pavis, good progress had been made rebuilding the Lunar Bridge after the giant cradle had smashed through its central span. The construction work formed a chokepoint for the surging waters, but was eventually swept away. Floodwaters poured into the Rubble, quickly breaking the banks and inundating much of the northern side of the ruins. For a while, Badside outside the walls and Zebra Fort within became island refuges, and the rising waters forced many angry trolls out of their cellars and hidey-holes in the Troll Stronglands.

The Great Corvée

For several weeks, a great sheet of water spread far over the flatlands of Pavis County and the breadbasket of Sun County, causing further misery for the people. But when the floodwaters finally receded, they saw Zola Fel had left them with a gift: the fields were now covered in a thick layer of fertile silt. It was too late in the year for planting, so the hungry times continued, though the farmers all agreed that the next planting season offered incredible promise . In the meantime famine was kept at bay by the grateful elves, who shared the miraculous bounty from the Garden with the people of Pavis and the Sun Dome. Only in the distant Grantlands was there true starvation in the River of Cradles valley after that.

When the waters abated, there was much to be done to take advantage of the precious soil deposited by the flood. Vega Goldbreath as Guardian led the efforts to repair the damage in the Lands of the Sun. Using an ancient tattered scroll from the temple archives depicting the fabled Gods Wall in distant Dara Happa, Vega evoked the story of the Ten Sons and Servants of Lodril. The entire population was mobilized into a Great Corvée, with even Light Sons and priests putting their hands to mattock and spade. Although initially scandalized to see the Light Lady taking on the role of Morkartos the Foreman, clad only in a kilt, in a remarkably short time the people cleared away tremendous quantities of debris, dug out irrigation channels and repaired the riverbanks. Meanwhile, Penta Goldbreath formed a Ty Kora Tek sisterhood with others sharing her affliction to help the many restless ghosts and vengeful wraiths from Great Winter find their solace.

There'd be no precious silt left behind after the flood of 1652 though, quite the opposite.

That was one snow melt that continued to the ocean.  Where is the runoff from Magasta's Pool going to go?

[MOB]

Just now, Yelm's Light said:

That was one snow melt that continued to the ocean.  Where is the runoff from Magasta's Pool going to go?

Back into Magasta's Pool, eventually... taking as much of the top layers of the lowlands of Genertela with it as it can... 

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

That was one snow melt that continued to the ocean.  Where is the runoff from Magasta's Pool going to go?

The Deep Sea entities harvest the energies from whichever "Food" (dry land stuff) arrives at their realm at the bottom of the seas, then the water wells up outside in a huge circular current inside the outer Dome of Darkness to become Sramak's River (which reaches from the middle Underworld to the surface world).

The vortex of Magasta's Pool avoids being tapped by the Chaos Void as long as it continues to run with all the energies of the waters of the world. Instead, the All Waters form a huge single entity with internal vortices and currents, separated from the Void outside of the universe by Darkness (below, and outward as the lower half of the spherical dome). Varchulanga and Drospoly sit at the bottom of the bottomless oceans, below the lower limits of Earth, bordering on the Darkness below, giving birth to entities better left unencountered.

 

Sramak's River is an endless vortex of water, under a likewise endless vortex of storm. There is no reason why there couldn't be other floating islands of calmness hidden somewhere far outside, known only to the most primal expressions of these two elements, with their very own stories of creation and destruction, maybe sharing some isolated properties of the outermost entities with Glorantha (like the Deepest Underworld, the outermost sky), and entirely different stuff of their own, possibly including their own inner Sky Dome and their own Near Underworld. Possibly also an own version of the Axis Mundi rooted in the Chaosium upholding that inner Sky Dome. But possibly sharing a branch of the River Styx.

Given the wealth of weirdness and unexplored themes Glorantha offers, nobody has yet seen the need to explore such a setting. Most of us lack the time to explore what is there already.

[Yelm's Light]

2 hours ago, MOB said:

Back into Magasta's Pool, eventually... taking as much of the top layers of the lowlands of Genertela with it as it can... 

Not while the Pool is plugged, it won't, barring subsurface currents that won't affect the water level.  Unless you do what Joerg is apparently suggesting, which is to come up with some kind of mythical rationalization for why all this water will just magically disappear from the world's surface without a drain.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, MOB said:

Back into Magasta's Pool, eventually... taking as much of the top layers of the lowlands of Genertela with it as it can... 

1 hour ago, Yelm's Light said:

Not while the Pool is plugged, it won't, barring subsurface currents that won't affect the water level.  Unless you do what Joerg is apparently suggesting, which is to come up with some kind of mythical rationalization for why all this water will just magically disappear from the world's surface without a drain.

Greg's notes are quite clear that the ice eventually melts - the actually flood is only a year. once the ice has melted enough, the remainder will drop through and whoosh - the land starts to drain and as @MOB says taking the top layers with it. I think over all that the bottom of valleys will be deeper and some low lying coastal elements lost. I can see Pavis left high and dry above the Zola Fell likewise the sun dome temple.

I've still the third map to do...

 

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

I've still the third map to do...

Chop, chop! 

[David Scott]

I was reminded that I hadn't done the third map! So here is the final flood level with a special note. You'll see i've marked a red circle on the map. This place is important as its the separation pain of the Oslir river watershed and the Creek-stream-river watershed. I've chosen not to have the flood spill over at this point. If you want an Oslir catastrophe as part of this event - go ahead, but it doesnt seem to fit here unless you think otherwise.

Edited September 27, 2023 by David Scott
replaced image with corrected version

[Joerg]

Nice and scary map. Is the top of the Block flooded? I thought it would peek out.

I think that Peloria should be affected, too. The Sweet Sea is hardly elevated, and beyond it lies the Pelorian Bowl. Even if you allow a delay in propagation of the upwelling from Magasta's Pool, that effect will come - if possibly only as a giga-tsunami.

[metcalph]

41 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I was reminded that I hadn't done the third map! So here is the final flood level with a special note. You'll see i've marked a red circle on the map. This place is important as its the separation pain of the Oslir river watershed and the Creek-stream-river watershed. I've chosen not to have the flood spill over at this point. If you want an Oslir catastrophe as part of this event - go ahead, but it doesnt seem to fit here unless you think otherwise.

I think the best model for the Pelorian basin flooding (if it does) would be the Zanclean Flood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood).  Since that took anywhere betwen 2 and 10,000 years, I don't think the Pelorian basin will be as inundated as the southern coast of genertela.

[MOB]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I was reminded that I hadn't done the third map! So here is the final flood level with a special note. You'll see i've marked a red circle on the map. This place is important as its the separation pain of the Oslir river watershed and the Creek-stream-river watershed. I've chosen not to have the flood spill over at this point. If you want an Oslir catastrophe as part of this event - go ahead, but it doesnt seem to fit here unless you think otherwise.

Bear in mind this map only shows the extent of what the inundation would be like without any magical/divine/heroquesting/technological interventions, which might take place in various locations with varying degrees of success. I already have an idea what the Sun Domers of Prax might do to meet the peril. And remember, in the Cave of Serpents at Sacred Ezel the Enervi Sybil gave a prophesy, that one day "the dykes of Esrolia will save the Holy Country".

Edited July 24, 2018 by MOB

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, MOB said:

Bear in mind this map only shows the extent of what the inundation would be like without any magical/divine/heroquesting/technological interventions, which might take place in various locations with varying degrees of success.

I totally agree. These maps are to illustrate the scale of what's coming in the Hero Wars, a prompt if you like for GMs and players about the scale of operation.

Quote

I already have an idea what the Sun Domers of Prax might do to meet the peril. And remember, in the Cave of Serpents at Sacred Ezel the Enervi Sybil gave a prophesy, that one day "the dykes of Esrolia will save the Holy Country".

I suspect lots of places will rally some kind of defences, their effectiveness unknown. I don't expect total wipeout, but I suspect 50% population reduction and landscape remodelling. Lots of settlements wont survive, but will be rebuilt afterwards. The Windstop and thaw is a dress rehearsal for the return of the seas. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by David Scott

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I think the best model for the Pelorian basin flooding (if it does)

Greg's Hero Wars map for the shows:

Flooded 

• the area in map 3 (Sartar, Esrolia).
• The Janube Valley up to about Eastpoint.
• The Tanier Valley up to just before Lake Felster.
• Kralorela & Teshnos up to the Shan Shan Mountains.
• The Eastern side of the new dwarf land cube
• The Northern coasts of Pamaltela

Not Flooded

• The Pelorian Basin.
• East Isles
• Northern edge of the Dwarf land cube.
• The Wastes 

 

 

[Pentallion]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

 I suspect 50% population reduction and landscape remodelling. Lots of settlements wont survive, but will be rebuilt afterwards. The Windstop and thaw is a dress rehearsal for the return of the seas. 

Which is why it is almost mandatory that the flood encompass the Oslir as well.  Between the loss of manpower from the Windstop and then, a generation later, the incredible loss of manpower from the Flood, there is no way little Sartar can mount effective campaigns against the vast Lunar Empire.  Not unless you guys are holding out on us about catastrophe's that strike the Lunars as well.  Since Greg's map says Oslir is untouched, I guess that means there HAS to be some pretty bad stuff happen to the Lunars to allow the Orlanthi to have a fighting chance.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Pentallion

[Joerg]

Just because an area has been flooded doesn't exactly mean that all the population was lost. There are for instance the Fish Roads in Kethaela which allow land dwellers to seek refuge beneath the Choralinthor Sea, probably one of the safest place you can go while the land is flooded. There are magically sealed places like Erenplose, and similar magic could apply to other places.

The Shadow Plateau may have become a place of refuge once more, too.

The Underworld and similar magical refuge places were used in the bad winter of 1622, and could be used again.

The Seas flooding into the Dead Place will have interesting effects. Prax might emerge changed beyond recognition. So may the seas.

 

True, there will be loss of lives. This might be the magical map of future Loskalm that Snodal sought to prevent. This might be the big Waertagi invasion of Seshnela.

 

By the time of this flood, Argrath was King of Saird, and his followers may have come to displace Lunar and Dara Happan folk in the region - the flood may have caused a migration there.

Peloria has been the battlefield for a while now, and the sabotage of the Kalikos Quest had just given Dara Happa a fair taste of what the Windstop had done to Kerofinela and Kethaela. The Empire hasn't been left unscathed.

KoS p.26 describes an event roughly in 1650:

Quote

In the next spring, the Dara Happans would have liked to help their allies, the horsemen, but Argrath Storm‑maker raised the waters of the Oslir so much that every house which was not on a hillside was washed away. Anyone without boats could not move around, and so they all stayed home.

So even if this was a rainflood rather than the ice floe flood, Dara Happa had seen a frozen spring, followed by an exceptional flooding the year after, and was ruled by Sheng Seleris. There must have been a fairly high death toll there, too.

There is a chance that the battle against the Red Moon following the defeat of Sheng Seleris took place in 1651 or 52, before this Mandrenke, or that the Mandrenke was an event of his fight against Sheng. In either case, Peloria had not remained unscathed.

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

I've chosen not to have the flood spill over at this point. If you want an Oslir catastrophe as part of this event - go ahead, but it doesnt seem to fit here unless you think otherwise.

But of course we want an Oslir "catastrophe"!  Surely the sea gods are trying to reunite the primal river that is the Blue Dragon and both Oslir and Lorion.

11 hours ago, MOB said:

Bear in mind this map only shows the extent of what the inundation would be like without any magical/divine/heroquesting/technological interventions, which might take place in various locations with varying degrees of success. I already have an idea what the Sun Domers of Prax might do to meet the peril. And remember, in the Cave of Serpents at Sacred Ezel the Enervi Sybil gave a prophesy, that one day "the dykes of Esrolia will save the Holy Country".

I fully expect that there will be a concerted effort by Esrolians, perhaps years in preparation, to raise the Earth and wrap it in Ernalda's arms.  There's some epic heroquesting opportunities here which might include: having to counter the Goddess Switch (rescuing Slonta, or Wenelia, or whatever that goddess was named), maybe raising the Behemoth (of Gods War legend), bargaining for (i.e. stealing) secret plans/instructions/magic from the dwarves, learning the sorcerous secrets of the Nolos/Pasos refugees, befriending Brastalos, awakening Kodig, etc.