1652 Great Flood

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

Worcha was created with the sole intent of destroying Ernalda. The Seas have invaded the Land many times, sometimes with catastrophic results.  I think that some Sea Deities are friendly with some Earth Deities and some are hostile, depending on the cults. The Pantheons themselves are probably neutral, due to the differences within.

That seems reasonable.  All the same, I am uncertain that even land-hostile deities of the sea will tolerate being forced to war by darkness forces.  The troll plan is something akin to a Dominate spell for water forces.  I would expect that all the water forces that matter would be utterly intent on destroying the iceberg and freeing the trapped water.

[jeffjerwin]

I noticed that the Theyalan name of the Bullflood is Uxeler, i.e., Urox-heler, which implies that Heler/Eler is a Theyalan common noun meaning flood as well as the name of a god... This may be of some significance for the interpretation the Heortlings have of the event and a proper response to it.

[kalidor]

On 7/24/2018 at 12:22 PM, David Scott said:

I was reminded that I hadn't done the third map! So here is the final flood level with a special note. You'll see i've marked a red circle on the map. This place is important as its the separation pain of the Oslir river watershed and the Creek-stream-river watershed. I've chosen not to have the flood spill over at this point. If you want an Oslir catastrophe as part of this event - go ahead, but it doesnt seem to fit here unless you think otherwise.

So David, what will happen when the waters reach the Dead Bottom? Thanks.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, kalidor said:

So David, what will happen when the waters reach the Dead Bottom? Thanks.

Or rather the leak the Mostali have been trying to plug under the Long Dry?

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, kalidor said:

So David, what will happen when the waters reach the Dead Bottom? Thanks.

There’s an error in the third map, according to Greg’s notes, the Wastes don’t get flooded. However if you want it in your game I’d say the Wicked Writher escapes and roams the waters as a giant water elemental, not trapped anymore. Or some other cool story.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or rather the leak the Mostali have been trying to plug under the Long Dry?

The assembly gantry is swung back, all workers brace for impact, terminator dwarves are returned to stasis pods. The lead dwarves reverse the containment valves, the dinosaur powered capstans slowly turn the flow forcing the flood into the breech. The maelstrom gorges on the flow, sucking harder than the flood pushes. The organic material recovery filters strain as herd beasts start to clog them. Chaos monsters add to this and a chaos aquaslime starts to regulate the flow. Ultimately this is what saves Prax from loosing its top layer of earth. Prax drains faster than surrounding areas and is pretty much dry after a year. The aquaslime plug is moved onto the break, forming a gel that the plug sits on and seals. The mostali flood plan succeeds in plugging this ancient crack, the world machine repair is progressing.

By sacred time of 1654, the dwarf's complex had been repurposed and packed. The great city sphere was hitched onto its dinosaur dray and begin the slow move up from the depths. In spring* it had penetrated the deep basements of Cliffhome on the way to the Greatway. It was here that the Dwarves were instrumental in evicting Cragspider and the Black Dragon with the aid of Unstanos. The trolls had never dealt with this kind of highly trained force, however few of the terminators survived contact with the Dragon.

* it's implied that the city spent many years moving, so it's uncertain which spring it is.

Edited February 7, 2019 by David Scott

[kalidor]

20 minutes ago, David Scott said:

There’s an error in the third map, according to Greg’s notes, the Wastes don’t get flooded. However if you want it in your game I’d say the Wicked Writher escapes and roams the waters as a giant water elemental, not trapped anymore. Or some other cool story.

Sorry David it was my mistake, I meant "The dead place" in prax. Will it  be healed?. Thanks.

[David Scott]

I don’t think so without some Adventurer intervention. This was a great god time act and so I don’t believe it can be easily undone. The lifeforce is now part of Storm Bull. If he were to die there it might be restored, but getting to that point is a huge adventure. That said if you think the flood can restore the dead place then go do it. YGMV. 

[kalidor]

8 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I don’t think so without some Adventurer intervention. This was a great god time act and so I don’t believe it can be easily undone. The lifeforce is now part of Storm Bull. If he were to die there it might be restored, but getting to that point is a huge adventure. That said if you think the flood can restore the dead place then go do it. YGMV. 

Well i was not thinking about undone what was done, just that the life-giving waters just heal the " life stealing" effects of that zone on those who go there even if what it is left is only desert.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, kalidor said:

Well i was not thinking about undone what was done, just that the life-giving waters just heal the " life stealing" effects of that zone on those who go there even if what it is left is only desert.

Looking at the description on page 124 of RQG, i personally wouldn’t call it life stealing. The dead place is magically dead and as a result what’s there suffers. As it says using magic there would likely start to restore the place. I can’t see the flood restoring this magical deficit. I think what’s more likely with the flood is how the area will affect sea life there. A cool idea would be to have it become a lake. 

[Darius West]

I think I know what the Trolls are up to.  They are very likely to be well aware of the Elf Plot to superseed the world, and flooding it is their answer.  It will also cause the Dwarves a good many problems with their little plot to raise all those sunken lands.  Remember the Praxian prophecies about how the people who wish to return Prax to the Green Age will ultimately destroy everyone?  I think this may refer to the Aldryami plan to reforest Prax and the rest of the world, and the Trolls then flooding the place to stop this taking place.  

Edited February 12, 2019 by Darius West

[Roko Joko]

> [Joerg] Or rather the leak the Mostali have been trying to plug under the Long Dry?
> [David Scott] The assembly gantry ...[snip]

I don't remember ever hearing about this Mostali Prax / Dragon Pass tunneling stuff before, but it sounds cool.  Is there some background text on it somewhere?

[David Scott]

14 minutes ago, Roko Joko said:

> [Joerg] Or rather the leak the Mostali have been trying to plug under the Long Dry?
> [David Scott] The assembly gantry ...[snip]

I don't remember ever hearing about this Mostali Prax / Dragon Pass tunneling stuff before, but it sounds cool.  Is there some background text on it somewhere?

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 11/8/2017 at 10:09 AM, Yelm's Light said:

So long Sun County and Pavis, welcome to the Big Muddle...

I suppose I'll stick with a 1625-ish game, then.

It kinda does make it harder to care about a Prax/Pavis game, knowing that little to nothing will matter in 25 years.

[Richard S.]

Kind of serious question: if Glorantha is floating in an infinite water source, then how can the sea level rise? Either by plugging the whirlpool or raising lands like Slon? I know that Glorantha doesn't operate on our laws, but wouldn't the displaced water simply be displaced horizontally into the infinite river? Or is there a deeper mythological thing going on, where the seas are not being displaced, but are intentionally invading the land, either because they don't have to work on keeping the hole in the middle of the world plugged anymore or because they've lost some of the land they used to have underwater?

[Pentallion]

32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It kinda does make it harder to care about a Prax/Pavis game, knowing that little to nothing will matter in 25 years.

I take it you never played Stormbringer?  The entire multiverse doesn't matter in less than 25 years in that setting.

[GAZZA]

Honestly metaplots are a weird idea, no matter whether by the comparatively juvenile "cooler than thou" blokes at White Wolf or the comparatively better written stuff by Greg and Chaosium. RPGs are an interactive medium; you can't tell me what's going to happen in my game next week, let alone in 25 years, because it's not up to you; I don't even have to follow the rules let alone all elements of the setting.

In and of itself that doesn't make metaplots bad exactly. There are plenty of GMs that never create their own adventures and just run published material; a metaplot can serve as an overarcing plot for such GMs. Other GMs can use them as a sort of guide to "what might have happened" or even "what will happen if the PCs do nothing", and they can be useful there too. But I wish there was a lot more history and useful game material (like HeroQuests, the perpetually "out next year" feature for RuneQuest) and a lot less metaplot personally.

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It kinda does make it harder to care about a Prax/Pavis game, knowing that little to nothing will matter in 25 years.

Is it hard to play in the Roman Empire, knowing it all comes crashing down later? Or in the last decades of feudal Japan?

At least here you can change the way it goes. Heck, even if you play as a Centurion or a Samurai, you can technically change history and go into alternate histories. Sometimes it's even better.

I didn't even know there was supposed to be a flood in 1652. I don't see it list in the 3rd age timeline of Dragon Pass... where is that coming from? (edit: found it, King of Sartar)

Edited April 16, 2020 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Is it hard to play in the Roman Empire, knowing it all comes crashing down later? Or in the last decades of feudal Japan?

If the entire country was geographically lost rather than merely the current government falling, and for reasons most likely completely unrelated to anything you do in play, then yes. I had the same experience playing in Moria in Lord of the Rings Online - we know for a fact that the expedition there that you're so vigorously supporting will in fact fail.

I mean sure, as long as it's just about your characters' livelihood and personal enrichment (and possibly even personal development), as it seems the new Pavis book will focus on, then it's no problem - if by some miracle you're alive in 25 years, you can just relocate. But it does make it less important what happens to the place if it's doomed already (and it's not like you're playing out a tragedy either).

"Yay, we actually restored Genert!"
*blubblubblub*
"Damnit!"

Of course, if it's something that could actually be fought off (which it honestly should be in Glorantha - flooding can be fought by going and beating up the Sea gods, as we all know) rather than a matter of fluid dynamics, and not locked into future history, then we're good once more.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I take it you never played Stormbringer?  The entire multiverse doesn't matter in less than 25 years in that setting.

If this was fixed future metaplot, then it would make what happens to the setting feel less relevant, yes. Saving a kingdom does become a lot less relevant. It does not necessarily mean that what happens to characters becomes less interesting. 

On the other hand, it also depends on how much nihilism comes baked into things. in CoC, the whole point is that you're fighting a delaying action against the end of the world, but even there, it at least can be delayed, and your actions are specifically related to the delaying!

Edited April 16, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It kinda does make it harder to care about a Prax/Pavis game, knowing that little to nothing will matter in 25 years.

There are a number of ways to approach this kind of event in game.

Just assume it happens as written - everything flooded and destroyed followed by a new beginning.

or (as intended in the Hero Wars):

Heroes in their respective area put up defences and save their locale (I fought We Won):

 - Esrolia goes into the god time or is sealed or gets an energy dome like the city of wonders (Stargate Atlantis).

- A powerful adventurer heroforms Orlanth and fights the Dragon (rising waters) and holds them back.

- Sun County reenacts the river ritual and Zol Fel holds back the waters.

- Pavis himself begins a huge ritual that stops the city being flooded (like in GroY)

- Genert's daughter makes her first public appearance at the Paps and raises defenders shore higher.

- The Storm Bull/Waha/Eiritha cult move the Great Storm over the Paps.

- The copper caves dwarfs succeed in unblocking their drain and little of Prax is flooded.

Loads of opportunity for adventures.

Look at The Glorious Reascent of Yelm for inspiration from the Great Flood.

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Kind of serious question:

🙂

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

if Glorantha is floating in an infinite water source, then how can the sea level rise?

Mythomagical effects.

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Either by plugging the whirlpool or raising lands like Slon? I know that Glorantha doesn't operate on our laws, but wouldn't the displaced water simply be displaced horizontally into the infinite river?

The flood is actually a bulge, try not to use displaced or any science...

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Or is there a deeper mythological thing going on, where the seas are not being displaced, but are intentionally invading the land, either because they don't have to work on keeping the hole in the middle of the world plugged anymore or because they've lost some of the land they used to have underwater?

Spot on (or something like that that we don't or maybe won't ever understand).

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I didn't even know there was supposed to be a flood in 1652. I don't see it list in the 3rd age timeline of Dragon Pass... where is that coming from?

See also the Black Dragon Mountain Pictoglyphs, GtG page 747-749.

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, Richard S. said:

if Glorantha is floating in an infinite water source, then how can the sea level rise?

Multiple mythic events including:

1) the Blue Dragon crawled up onto the land in the SE and swam across all the way to DH (see Guide p.683, Late Golden Age map, and GS p.99). Also includes Togaro Ocean drowning the land of the Keets.

2) the Sea Gods rose up from both SE and NW and drowned the lands (except the mountains) until driven back by the Storm Gods (see Guide p.684, Early Storm Age map).  The Sea Gods also swam up into the Heavens to create the Celestial River.

3) plus the Seas rushed in after the Spike exploded and Zzabur unleashed his own blast to form the entire Homeward Ocean (not to mention Magasta's Pool).  And the seas still cover this entire central area that was once land (see Guide p694, Great Darkness map, and GS p.122).

And since these all occurred in the Godtime, they can occur again.

[AndreJarosch]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

Just assume it happens as written - everything flooded and destroyed followed by a new beginning.

Just an idea on how to handle it, if you don´t want to follow that way: 
In Harshax´s time it was dicovered by the editor of King of Sartar that there was a great flood... according to his sources. 
If his sources were a Praxian veteran (spending his last years in Corflu), a Sartarite chief (in exile in Corflu), a Esrolian trader (who owns a warehouse in Corflu) and a Darktroll mother (renting her trollkins as sailors to whoever pays for them, at the port of Corflu), then it looks like the four sources - Praxians, Sartarites, Esrolians and Trolls - describe a great flood, which must have covered Prax, Sartar, Esrolia, and the Troll lands of Dragon Pass (!), but in fact it was only Corflu...
 

Edited April 16, 2020 by AndreJarosch