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Middle-earth Basic Roleplaying preview


Fergo113

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From the little bits I've seen so far it looks as if you're basically just assuming the rights to use Tolkien's work and you're melding it with screenshots from the movies along with complete images from artists. Just adding a copyright doesn't cut it because the point of the copyright declaration is to prevent you from doing what you're doing. On top of that you're integrating your interpretations of Tolkien's work with his (and possibly also work appearing in other copyrighted sources) so that you can't see the joins and, implicitly, laying claim to it. You're also extending BRP material without any obvious right to do so and some random Tolkien lawyer might even rattle Chaosium's cage.

One should obviously respect the rights of authors and creators. Yet there are limits to copyrights and those limits are laid out by the legislator in order to promote the distribution of new art and to safeguard the interest of the rest of society. Copyrights as such do not, after all, exist primarily in the interest of the author but in the interest of society. We offer a author a copyright in order to give him an incitement to publish his work so that we may enjoy it, learn from it and use it. Copyright exists to fulfil a need of society (which is all of us).

I make this distinction because it explains why it's quite OK to take the ideas, concepts and thoughts of others and express them in your own words. It also make it clear that it's not immoral or wrong to make use of other peoples expressions, or parts of those expressions, when those expressions lack copyright protection.

A few rules of the road:

  • Making new creatures for BRP does not violate any copyright of Chaoisum's, because Chaosium does not own the way of describing a creature using their rules.
  • Describing the landscapes or creatures found in Tolkien's world does not violate any copyright, as long such expressions are just based on the ideas found in Tolkien's work and do not copy other peoples expressions of those ideas (including Tolkien's own expressions).
  • Providing a set of rules enabling people to make use of BRP plus any other material they own that describes ME is quite OK. It does not violate anyone's copyright as longs as it make use of those parts of other peoples works that are not copyright protected.

I do agree with deleriad that it's good manners to identify a work such as this, as one's own interpretation and expression of someone else's ideas and thoughts.

Creating a graphically slimmed down version of the document would also - probably - make it faster to write. Keep the full-featured version as a private document and publish a more bare-bone version here.

Peter Brink

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I suppose the thing to ask yourself is, how happy would you be to have someone doing to your work what you plan to do to Tolkien's? What you are doing would not fall into "fair use" but might be just about defensible under the conventions that generally fall into fan fiction. To be honest I suspect the only thing that would stop Tolkien's estate issuing you with a cease and desist notice is them not noticing you.

From the little bits I've seen so far it looks as if you're basically just assuming the rights to use Tolkien's work and you're melding it with screenshots from the movies along with complete images from artists. Just adding a copyright doesn't cut it because the point of the copyright declaration is to prevent you from doing what you're doing. On top of that you're integrating your interpretations of Tolkien's work with his (and possibly also work appearing in other copyrighted sources) so that you can't see the joins and, implicitly, laying claim to it. You're also extending BRP material without any obvious right to do so and some random Tolkien lawyer might even rattle Chaosium's cage.

What I would do if I were you is to keep the nicely formatted, lavishly illustrated version to yourself. Under general conventions of fan fiction you could do a more basic "here's how I might interpret some elements of Tolkien's work in a game using the BRP mechanics but of course no copyright is challenged" version and put that up here instead.

I'm saying this because fun though it is to do this sort of thing (I've done it myself with B5 stuff) you do have to act responsibly towards the creators of the work you wish to use - whether its the artists whose work you are using or the ideas of those who wrote the texts. It's not just about corporate men in suits seeking to wring every last inch of profit out of something it's also about dealing fairly with authors and artists.

One question I hav e is just what are people allowed to do who buy an RPG? For instance, I have bought both MERP and the Decipher LOTR RPG. Technically, the way the "rights" are determined, it is probably a violation of the authros rights to actually play one of the RPGs, as opposed to just reading it.

Running a RPG based in Middle Earth would require a GM to work with a write stuff using Tolkien's works. It that is not allowed then they should not allow for any RPG. If it is allowed, then does it become a question of scale? I.E. It okay to do so for your own group, but not okay to make it available to others. And if it is okay to play one of the liscened games, do we loose that right when the company that produces the RPG7s right expire?

Also, if it is okay to run a Middle Earth RPG, then are gamers allows to depart from the official mechanics?

Personally I think the who A"authors right" "Movie studio" rights thing has gotten way ouit of hand. What next? Do we forbit children from playing "Fordo" or "Aragon" in the backyard?

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I loved the barrow-wight entry. I think it well written, evocative, and enjoyably academic (tolkien-lore 50%). I especially like the hooks presented for GM's to play ME in time periods other than those focused on in LotR.

My only criticism is the art. There are six pieces for the barrow-wight, and seven for the fell beast. It's just too much, and it overwhelms an otherwise elegantly muted layout. Not to mention that it jacks up the page count quite a bit. I also am not a fan of most CGI from video games. What makes for good game art, rarely translate to good print art for static viewing.

Looking forward to seeing more.

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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One question I hav e is just what are people allowed to do who buy an RPG? For instance, I have bought both MERP and the Decipher LOTR RPG. Technically, the way the "rights" are determined, it is probably a violation of the authros rights to actually play one of the RPGs, as opposed to just reading it....

This is really rather silly.

Creators do have rights. For example, this is a BRP board and many of us will have played in Glorantha. So, how do you think Greg Stafford would feel if I took a bunch of his creations, adapted some of the material in his unfinished works, wrote it all up in d20, scanned in a lot of the good RQ3 art and gave it all away in a nice looking PDF online? I'm sure many people on this board would be all over me and rightly so. Mongoose and Issaries pay money to Greg in order to do that.

Now there is the concept of fair use and it can be a bit blurry. I personally think that the OP has used too much copyright material, especially when it comes to the art.

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So, how do you think Greg Stafford would feel if I took a bunch of his creations, adapted some of the material in his unfinished works, wrote it all up in d20, scanned in a lot of the good RQ3 art and gave it all away in a nice looking PDF online? I'm sure many people on this board would be all over me and rightly so.

Hehe, I agree. Then people would come home to you and say "Roll the d100 bitch!"

:lol:

I don't think Greg Stafford himself would mind as long as you added the fan policy disclaimers. (He even found the Morokanth "Got milk?" t-shirt funny!) The individual artists might, but Greg would not, unless you copied lots of the material directly, without using your own words.

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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One question I hav e is just what are people allowed to do who buy an RPG? For instance, I have bought both MERP and the Decipher LOTR RPG. Technically, the way the "rights" are determined, it is probably a violation of the authros rights to actually play one of the RPGs, as opposed to just reading it.

There are companies (Palladium being a good example) that claim that a consumer isn't even allowed to publish characters they have made by using the RPG's rules. That's a bogus claim. Copyright can only protect the expression of an idea - not the idea as such. When you use the rules of a game you are making use of the ideas being described and not the expression of those ideas. Also - the results of functions, mathematical formulas etc. cannot be copyrighted. There are rulings in the US proving that point and the copyright doctrine in Europe is clear on this point as well.

Running a RPG based in Middle Earth would require a GM to work with a write stuff using Tolkien's works. It that is not allowed then they should not allow for any RPG. If it is allowed, then does it become a question of scale? I.E. It okay to do so for your own group, but not okay to make it available to others. And if it is okay to play one of the liscened games, do we loose that right when the company that produces the RPG7s right expire? Also, if it is okay to run a Middle Earth RPG, then are gamers allows to depart from the official mechanics?

Again, copyright only covers the expression of an idea and not the idea itself. When you describe places and creatures in a setting _you_ express your own interpretation of the thoughts being expressed by the creator of the setting, and this is quite OK.

Peter Brink

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Now there is the concept of fair use and it can be a bit blurry. I personally think that the OP has used too much copyright material, especially when it comes to the art.

Fair use and fair dealing are common law concepts, in civil law jurisdictions (Europe and former European colonies) we use exemptions from copyright instead. But the issue here is really not about fair use, it's about using things that lack copyright protection, and as a consequence also about what, precisely, can be copyright protected and what cannot.

Peter Brink

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My only criticism is the art. There are six pieces for the barrow-wight, and seven for the fell beast. It's just too much, and it overwhelms an otherwise elegantly muted layout.

Oh, sorry man but you are going to hate the Orc entry then...:o (lots of images)

I guess I should explain to everyone that ME-BRP is actually a very selfish piece of work. I'll explain... I have notes, stats and ideas that have been floating around in their various forms clogging up my RPG cupboard for years now as well as a healthy lot of MERP, Decipher LotR and lots of Chaosium stuff.

I started working on ME-BRP some years ago and started playtesting various ideas with my RPG mates about two years ago. Over that time now they have been slogging through the wilds of Eriador with me as their GM carrying an unhealthily large stack of my notes/Runequest/BRP/MERP/LotR RPG books to each gaming session, crying "follow me, lads" and throwing together the rules as we went along, using Runequest II as the ship and the MERP adventure/campaigns as the star to sail her by. :thumb:

In the interests of preserving my back from snapping under all that load, I decided to compile all the material I wanted into one document. Either that of hire a Troll to act as my packmule, and you know how grumpy trolls can get.:focus:

Thus the idea for ME-BRP was born. :)

With all that background material at my disposal, plus my own ideas and notes, I ploughed on to get to about 10 chapters, 2 appendices and a bunch of character sheets all drafted into various states of existence.

Then something wonderful happened... Chaosium put together the BRP rule set in one comprehensive book. :eek: (not sure if anyone noticed that book, it kind of slipped under the radar a bit ;) ).

So I decided that BRP would be better for the rule set than Runequest II and started to rework my notes etc and the Word documents I was working on.

When I found this site and joined BRP Central, people were discussing what they were working on and blogged about ME-BRP. So here we are today, me trying to finish this for myself but finding out that some others would also like a copy of the work.

So the intent of ME-BRP has always been a very selfish one... ie to save my spine. So yes it containes a lot of background material from many sources and a stack of images from the internet that I thought I would use to pretty up what I was making and impress my RPG mates as they continued to stumble through the Trollshaws getting sniped by Orcs in Third Age 2740 when there is a massive invasion of Orcs into Eriador (this is several centuries before the timeframe of The Hobbit).

So where as copyright is a very important issue, ME-BRP is intended for my personal use only. I know that there are a few others who expressed an interest to have a copy and I am honoured to give it to them (I'll leave how they get it up to the very capable hands of Trifletraxor for distribution because I don't want anyone to get into trouble, least of all myself).

Hope this helps clear up the debate about copyright, worthwhile one that it is though.

Cheers

Fergo113 :thumb:

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Awesome. And I understand the reasoning, the same reason why I am doing a R--I--F--T--S-- book in a similar fashion, for me and my group only (primarily me).

I hardly feel guilty about it as I have purchased all the source books for the title that I intned to use and am following K.S's basic rule of "if you dont like a rule, change it!' Im just changing it rule by rule LOL. But I dont want a blank word document and I like the descriptions and text in the source books Im spotting from. So I am making a fully illustrated PDF/Book for my own use for the conversion.

But Id like to see ME-BRP as well.

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I hardly feel guilty about it as I have purchased all the source books for the title that I intned to use.

Ditto mate :thumb:

I think I must have personnaly kept Tolkien enterprises afloat over the years with all the MERP/LotR (and other of JRR's works) stuff I have bought. I don't feel that I have slighted anyone as I bought all the rpg material I have used to draft ME-BRP, or its freely available on the web.

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Ditto mate :thumb:

I think I must have personnaly kept Tolkien enterprises afloat over the years with all the MERP/LotR (and other of JRR's works) stuff I have bought. I don't feel that I have slighted anyone as I bought all the rpg material I have used to draft ME-BRP, or its freely available on the web.

MERP 1E, MERP 2E, Role Master (every book I could get) up until it went to Role Master the Standard System as that version really bit.

So I think I gave a good deal of money to the stocks of the Iron Crown.

As for Palladium, was a huge fan of their games (I think cause we all played D&D so I just bought what was different, which began with Palladium Fantasy). TMNT, Ninjas & Superspies, Heroes Unlimited, RIFTS and didnt get tired of the system/company until after the 4th or 5th Rifts book came out and i just said "Come on, how many freaking OCCs do we need?"

Fortunately I found Mayfair's DC Heroes in early college and the rest is history (until recently when I started writing OGL stuff).

Anyway, it is nice to see someone who has similar feelings about their conversion notes and what not.

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MERP 1E, MERP 2E, Role Master (every book I could get) up until it went to Role Master the Standard System as that version really bit.

So I think I gave a good deal of money to the stocks of the Iron Crown.

Anyway, it is nice to see someone who has similar feelings about their conversion notes and what not.

Ah, a kindred soul ;)

Well, I would have to say then PK that between the both of us Tolkien Ent and Iron Crown can cut us just a little slack as they sunbathe on some tropical beach on the Island that they bought off the proceeds from our two pay checks...lol.

I guess you can have a copy of ME-BRP then :thumb:

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This is really rather silly.

Creators do have rights. For example, this is a BRP board and many of us will have played in Glorantha. So, how do you think Greg Stafford would feel if I took a bunch of his creations, adapted some of the material in his unfinished works, wrote it all up in d20, scanned in a lot of the good RQ3 art and gave it all away in a nice looking PDF online? I'm sure many people on this board would be all over me and rightly so. Mongoose and Issaries pay money to Greg in order to do that.

Now there is the concept of fair use and it can be a bit blurry. I personally think that the OP has used too much copyright material, especially when it comes to the art.

But those who buy a product have right too, or lat least they used to. Autgros rights and copywrite laws have been rewritten in recent years to ex@pand the creators' (and the publishing companies') rights at the expanse of the people who actually pay for the product.(In fact, after the last few changes in the law, loaning out a DVD to a friend is now a violation of the law).

Tolkien died decades ago, so his wishes are not even a factor anymore. If he were alive I dobut that New Line would have ended up with the film rights.

And it is not silly. Toliens works draw from other sources. His Altantean myth, elves, his languages, acome from elsewhere. Frankly I think it would be difficult, and unwise to go after people for doing up homebrew RPG stuff for MIddle Earth. All it does it alienate your own fan base.

The is a big difference between someone making up something for use around a few gaming tables, and a company selling something professionally.

I suspect Tolkien would have been pleased to hear that fans were adapting Middle Earth for play in games, and no so please to hear that someone wall rpducing and selling the same.

Likewise, Greg has always supported other people exhanging ideas and stuff for Glorantha. There are quite a few RQ/HQ and Glorantha based sites on the net with all sorts of things from runes to maps, to cult write ups to historties. GReg doesn't go after them. Likewise, he doesn't care what system players use when playing Glorantha. If he heard that someone was running a BRP Glorantha campaign, he wouldn't be bothered by it.

Frabkly, it would be stupid to do so. If no one is allowed to work with the sertting then no one will. For anything.

In order for any RPG setting to work, it has be be kept alive and open to the players. If an author doesn't want other people to use his stuff for RPG peuposes then he should liscense it out as an RPG. The Tolkien estate has done so- twice..

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I think maybe the whole fan works/copyright issue warrants its own thread.

SGL.

Perhaps,

It seems that authors and pusblishers do not understand the interactive nature of RPGs. People read a book, or watch a movie. But they play an game. And a RPG, unlike most other types of games, is a creative effort.

ANd doesn't this argument hold for any RPG produce based on any licensed setting?

PS. Does Anyone here think that Fergo13'S BRP-ME stuff is going to be used by more than a handful of gamers?

Edited by Atgxtg

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Nice orc-ghoul Fergo113! :)

I think the creature chapter will be a great supplement for most fantasy campaigns, not just Middle Earth.

SGL.

Considering that orcs, elves, wights and several other Tolkein-based versions of creatures are staples of fantasy RPGs, you've got a good point.

One hurdle RW2 had with "mainstream" gamers was that it used a fantasy setting that was not in some way based off of the so called "generic" Tolkienequse (should we say "token") fantasy setting.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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In this case I am fully with atgxtg. In the last years the copyright madness has poisened the western information society way too much.

This whole idea of "violation" of the rights of copyright owners is retarded. In reality nobody is hurt and no-one earns only even one Euro less if a guy uploads a non-commercial free BRP conversion of Middle-Earth on a fan site.

This is just another way some greedy lawers try to grab money from fans and exert their influence at the rest of the society. Any honest and good person should stand against this.

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Sorry PK,

I kind of dumped the idea of the Nazgul as really they are not creatures as such but nine NPC characters. I was thinking of including them in something at a later date (campaign setting :confused:) and I felt I was way behind in finishing the chapter so they sort of got flicked. But I guess I could go back to put them in again, but they would be a lot of work. Wraiths as a creatures group will be in the Creatures chapter, but these are less powerful than the Nine.

The Olog-hai I'm not up to transcribing yet sadly Trifletraxor. I've just done the Spiders and will soon be around to doing the trolls section. I do have the Kraken done though (both fresh and salt water varieties), if you want me to post that.

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