Sacrificing Power

[Orlanth]

I am considering running Runequest Classic. I started with RQ I back in 1981 and I have always been curious about whether the power sacrificed during holy days is regained like power used for casting spirit magic or if it is a permanent sacrifice. I cannot remember how we handled it back in the old days of 1981 and I didn't usually GM.

[Richard S.]

Hey there! I asked this same question a while ago on Discord. The Power sacrificed on holy days is personal power, or what was known in later editions as magic points, so yes you do regain it normally. The rules don't really do a good job explaining this so it can be a bit confusing.

However, there's nothing that says you can't sacrifice some permanent power to get a rune spell if you wanted, personally I would even attach some other bonus to sacrificing for magic on holy days, like one point sacrificed gaining two points of spells or even 3 on high holy days. It reinforces how special they are and encourages players to attend holy days for discount rune magic.

[Joerg]

The current thought is that sacrificing your non-permanent POW aka magic points on a holy day or a high holy day may gain you a POW check and regains one point of divine magic.

It could be argued that spending the holy day not in reaffirming the world but instead in increasing your magical power should be penalized rather than rewarded. Like, you forego your chance for a POW check when sacrificing POW for a new spell (point in your spell pool). That selfish activity detracts from your experience of the magic.

But then that assumes that you experience the holy day in ceremony at the temple, and not flying the winds to the nearest Holy Mountain from where you enter Orlanth's Hall.

If your holy day is spent flying on the winds and then feasting in Orlanth's hall, where do you find the time for sacrificing for a new spell? And where do you find a priest not involved in enabling that holy day magic?

Learning your new spell by exiting Orlanth's Hall into the appropriate myth could be possible, though. After all, the magic of a divine spell draws the mythic reality of that incident to the caster of the divine spell, enabling him to act like his deity. But that results in less carousing with the host of Orlanth, less strengthening of your soul. Less chance at re-gaining that point of POW you are going to transform into a spell pool point.

If you want more out of that Other Side visit, it is up to you and your supporting community (or communities) to start a heroquest on that day. That's the only way I would interfere with the point-for-point economy of divine magic in RQ.

I would agree to an argumentation that divine magic cast in ritual context on the holy day gets casting benefits.

So, whether you undergo a structured liturgy on the holy day or whether you visit the other side, your personal business is distracting from the real purpose of the holy day. Holy days are about the role of the deity in the world more than they are about the individual worshipper.

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The current thought is that sacrificing your non-permanent POW aka magic points on a holy day or a high holy day may gain you a POW check and regains one point of divine magic.

It could be argued that spending the holy day not in reaffirming the world but instead in increasing your magical power should be penalized rather than rewarded. Like, you forego your chance for a POW check when sacrificing POW for a new spell (point in your spell pool). That selfish activity detracts from your experience of the magic.

But then that assumes that you experience the holy day in ceremony at the temple, and not flying the winds to the nearest Holy Mountain from where you enter Orlanth's Hall.

If your holy day is spent flying on the winds and then feasting in Orlanth's hall, where do you find the time for sacrificing for a new spell? And where do you find a priest not involved in enabling that holy day magic?

Learning your new spell by exiting Orlanth's Hall into the appropriate myth could be possible, though. After all, the magic of a divine spell draws the mythic reality of that incident to the caster of the divine spell, enabling him to act like his deity. But that results in less carousing with the host of Orlanth, less strengthening of your soul. Less chance at re-gaining that point of POW you are going to transform into a spell pool point.

If you want more out of that Other Side visit, it is up to you and your supporting community (or communities) to start a heroquest on that day. That's the only way I would interfere with the point-for-point economy of divine magic in RQ.

I would agree to an argumentation that divine magic cast in ritual context on the holy day gets casting benefits.

So, whether you undergo a structured liturgy on the holy day or whether you visit the other side, your personal business is distracting from the real purpose of the holy day. Holy days are about the role of the deity in the world more than they are about the individual worshipper.

Just a note: this is RQ classic/2 Orlanth's asking about, the POW check mechanic was added in three so isn't technically in the rules at this point.

[Yelm's Light]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The current thought is that sacrificing your non-permanent POW aka magic points on a holy day or a high holy day may gain you a POW check and regains one point of divine magic.

It could be argued that spending the holy day not in reaffirming the world but instead in increasing your magical power should be penalized rather than rewarded. Like, you forego your chance for a POW check when sacrificing POW for a new spell (point in your spell pool). That selfish activity detracts from your experience of the magic.

But then that assumes that you experience the holy day in ceremony at the temple, and not flying the winds to the nearest Holy Mountain from where you enter Orlanth's Hall.

If your holy day is spent flying on the winds and then feasting in Orlanth's hall, where do you find the time for sacrificing for a new spell? And where do you find a priest not involved in enabling that holy day magic?

Learning your new spell by exiting Orlanth's Hall into the appropriate myth could be possible, though. After all, the magic of a divine spell draws the mythic reality of that incident to the caster of the divine spell, enabling him to act like his deity. But that results in less carousing with the host of Orlanth, less strengthening of your soul. Less chance at re-gaining that point of POW you are going to transform into a spell pool point.

If you want more out of that Other Side visit, it is up to you and your supporting community (or communities) to start a heroquest on that day. That's the only way I would interfere with the point-for-point economy of divine magic in RQ.

I would agree to an argumentation that divine magic cast in ritual context on the holy day gets casting benefits.

So, whether you undergo a structured liturgy on the holy day or whether you visit the other side, your personal business is distracting from the real purpose of the holy day. Holy days are about the role of the deity in the world more than they are about the individual worshipper.

Literally none of this is supported by RQ2.

Quote

INCREASING POW (RQ2, p.34)

...Increasing POW requires that the POW be used in situations of stress.  A character cannot attract POW from the Universe without the high emotional output found in the midst of battle.  This emotional output is not found in throwing spells at a friend who attempts to resist them, or similar "training" situations.

To increase POW in a character, he must first overcome an enemy's resistance with a spell.  ...

You can HR it all you want, of course, or perhaps argue that casting a spell on an enemy while on heroquest would invoke this.

Likewise for benefits from casting on holy days.  The spells are the spells, and their effects are clearly defined.  There's no provision in the rules that remotely justifies it.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Yelm's Light

[Richard S.]

44 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Literally none of this is supported by RQ2.

You can HR it all you want, of course, or perhaps argue that casting a spell on an enemy while on heroquest would invoke this.

Likewise for benefits from casting on holy days.  The spells are the spells, and their effects are clearly defined.  There's no provision in the rules that remotely justifies it.

And this is why we use house rules!

[Orlanth]

Thanks for all the information folks. As Richard S. pointed out the rules are a bit vague on this subject. I believe that it is only spelled out for Orlanth lay members in Cults Compendium. I guess I needed more confirmation than one isolated reference. I appreciate the extra thought that was put into the answers that you folks supplied, it is easy to just say yes to a question like that without any elaboration.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

 

[styopa]

You'd think Orlanth could pretty much do what he wanted, as long as it's within the Compromise?

RQ2 rules are only what, 80-some pages?  It leaves a fair amount to the GM to 'hand-wavy-rationalize', TBH.

[soltakss]

RQ2 was a bit vague when referring to POW and Personal Power, RQ3 cleared it up by using POW and Magic Points. If you spent all your Personal Power in RQ2 then you died, but in RQ3 reducing Magic points to 0 sends you unconscious and reducing POW to 0 makes you undead.

We played that attending a Holy Day gave you a chance of a POW gain roll, since it was a magical event.

[Psullie]

Reminder that those listed in RQ2 were just 'Sample Cults', so as Styopa said a lot of GM work was needed until Cults of Prax came out.

Still to answer the OP. The 2 POW offered are replenished as they would be by spell casting. The implication is that on holy days the initiate must pray, spend time with Orlanth and generally be pious, all costing 2 POW. Remember that as this is RQ2, that means that you are 2 POW less for resisting too, so adventuring on holy days is at a disadvantage. This is completely different from the POW sacrificed, i.e. permanently lost, for Rune Magic. 

 

[Richard S.]

28 minutes ago, soltakss said:

RQ2 was a bit vague when referring to POW and Personal Power, RQ3 cleared it up by using POW and Magic Points. If you spent all your Personal Power in RQ2 then you died, but in RQ3 reducing Magic points to 0 sends you unconscious and reducing POW to 0 makes you undead.

We played that attending a Holy Day gave you a chance of a POW gain roll, since it was a magical event.

Where did it say that 0PP meant death?

[Psullie]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Where did it say that 0PP meant death?

If any of the Characteristics reach Zero, usually form disease (see page 106 RQ2) your character will die, Ghosts and Vampires can drain POW - destroying the victim if this reaches zero. This can also happen also happen when you lose Spirit Combat (p41)

Now as written, some people felt that as casting spells reduces actual POW (rather than a temporary pool) and casting your last POW point would kill, but as you cannot voluntarily reduce any Characteristic below 3 (p9) so that's not likely to happen and that means that you can't cast spells once your POW reaches 3 (or racial minimum) - so many opt for the Magic Point version allowing voluntary expenditure of all POW causing unconsciousness 

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, Psullie said:

If any of the Characteristics reach Zero, usually form disease (see page 106 RQ2) your character will die, Ghosts and Vampires can drain POW - destroying the victim if this reaches zero. This can also happen also happen when you lose Spirit Combat (p41)

Now as written, some people felt that as casting spells reduces actual POW (rather than a temporary pool) and casting your last POW point would kill, but as you cannot voluntarily reduce any Characteristic below 3 (p9) so that's not likely to happen and that means that you can't cast spells once your POW reaches 3 (or racial minimum) - so many opt for the Magic Point version allowing voluntary expenditure of all POW causing unconsciousness 

Okay, maybe I was just unusually adept at determining when it meant personal and when it meant characteristic, because I never thought that spells reduced characteristic power.

[olskool]

I house-ruled that POW was expended in those holy day rituals.  However, this loss would net you a POW gain roll in my system.   It actually balanced out quite well during play.  

[Mugen]

On 06/12/2017 at 6:57 PM, soltakss said:

RQ2 was a bit vague when referring to POW and Personal Power, RQ3 cleared it up by using POW and Magic Points. If you spent all your Personal Power in RQ2 then you died, but in RQ3 reducing Magic points to 0 sends you unconscious and reducing POW to 0 makes you undead.

We played that attending a Holy Day gave you a chance of a POW gain roll, since it was a magical event.

It seems to me Land of Ninja Ki powers used the same confusing terminology.

French translation uses the term "POW points" instead of Magic Points. As I started playing with RQ3, it seemed to me Ki was extremely deadly to use...