Date of fall of New Pavis

[Jon Hunter]

Hi All,

Do we have a precise date for the fall of New Pavis? I have references for years of 1624/1625, can anyone give in a definitive date ?

jon

[jajagappa]

Same as noted on G+:

GtG p.733 map indicates Argrath liberates Pavis in 1624.  It has to be after Seaseason since Argrath is in Esrolia fighting at the Battle of Pennel Ford.  Plus he has to meet the White Bull and summon Jaldon.
Glorantha Sourcebook p.77 also says "In 1624, Argrath summoned Jaldon Goldentooth and together they cleansed Prax of the Lunar Empire".
I'm fairly certain from unpublished material that the Siege/Sack of Pavis occurs in Stormseason, but I don't have anything more precise.
In 1625, Argrath and Jaldon march against the Lunars in Dragon Pass, I believe in Seaseason, but are defeated and driven back.

[Jon Hunter]

The guide would indicate later 1624... i bumped into another source that suggest 1625..

[MOB]

6 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Hi All,

Do we have a precise date for the fall of New Pavis? I have references for years of 1624/1625, can anyone give in a definitive date ?

jon

Here's an excerpt from the timeline in the (as-yet unpublished) "The Great Winter and the Time of Two Counts"

- 1624 -

Duke Raus sends a Grantlands delegation led by his daughter to Furthest to complain about Governor Halcyon. [Sea]

Melo Yelo brings Invictus to the Painted Wall; they return with Daga’s jar now permanently sealed. [Earth]

Laertes Coatilon is forced into retirement, Melo Yelo is sent to Pent Ridge. [Dark]

The Second Battle of Moonbroth. Count Invictus is killed. Belvani immediately declares himself the new count, announces an alliance with Argrath and the resumption of Sun Dragon worship. [Storm]

Golden Wyrm destroys the Watchdog of Corflu before the walls of Pavis. [Storm]

New Pavis falls to Jaldon’s nomad horde following a short siege. Rurik Runespear leads Suntown assault on Lunar HQ and personally kills Halcyon var Enkorth. [Storm]

Rurik enacts the Three Blows of Anger, killing the Pavis Light Captain Xendar to reclaim Rana Goldenhair as his wife. [Storm]

Duke Raus and his entourage escape downriver from the nomads. Ronegarth is razed; Grantlands settlers flee or are taken as slaves by the raiders. [Storm]

Belvani refused entry to the Sun Dome. Gaumata incinerated by Daystar, Belvani’s high priest, during the standoff. [Storm]

Vega Goldbreath proclaimed Countess. Belvani sets up rival court in the Old Sun Dome. [Storm]

- 1625 -

Argrath’s invading army is repulsed by the Lunar College of Magic in Sartar; Daystar and the Sun Dragon contingent are utterly destroyed. [Sea]

[scott-martin]

5 minutes ago, MOB said:

Belvani immediately declares himself the new count, announces an alliance with Argrath and the resumption of Sun Dragon worship.

Good God!

[MOB]

47 minutes ago, MOB said:

New Pavis falls to Jaldon’s nomad horde following a short siege. Rurik Runespear leads Suntown assault on Lunar HQ and personally kills Halcyon var Enkorth. [Storm]

*GM Note: The resourceful Halcyon cunningly switched clothes with a flunky just before the assault, and it was actually the luckless double’s head that got paraded around afterwards, not his. Halcyon managed to flee the city and eventually make his way back to the Empire, along with Marusa. Rumor has it they were also both among the very few Lunar survivors of the Dragonrise.

[David Scott]

As to the actual time in Storm season, likely around a black moon as Argrath is familiar with fighting the Lunars, also likely an auspicious day for Waha or Orlanth. 

[Jon Hunter]

17 hours ago, MOB said:

*GM Note: The resourceful Halcyon cunningly switched clothes with a flunky just before the assault, and it was actually the luckless double’s head that got paraded around afterwards, not his. Halcyon managed to flee the city and eventually make his way back to the Empire, along with Marusa. Rumor has it they were also both among the very few Lunar survivors of the Dragonrise.

I've still got them in griffin mountain ..... well Halycon arrested by the coders and Marusa in hiding

[Joerg]

 

Argrath has Jaldon by his side. Jaldon might have had a different special auspicious date to repeat his original breach of Pavis' wall.

The text says that Jaldon disappeared into eastern Genertela, and returned as a crazed mystic. Did he enter God-Learner ruled Eest or Kralorela?

[David Scott]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Argrath has Jaldon by his side. Jaldon might have had a different special auspicious date to repeat his original breach of Pavis' wall.

Jaldon is newly restored Paps Khan (again) at this moment. So he is effectively Waha. I don’t think that any other considerations count at this moment. As there are no auspicious days around the dark moon, I think that it likely that it’s in the lead up to the seven mothers holy day, so when it falls, the Lunars loose their magics and can’t regain them. I’d don’t intend to pin down the actual days of the siege and fall as it’s clearly a player led event. Up to you to decide when. 

[David Scott]

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The text says that Jaldon disappeared into eastern Genertela, and returned as a crazed mystic. Did he enter God-Learner ruled Eest or Kralorela?

Don’t think it really matters. He could return from either as a crazed mystic. For MGF I’d have him go from one to the other. One sets the scene for his enlightenment, the other triggers it. As long as it has teeth and allows him to get his cool weapons.

 

 

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

He could return from either as a crazed mystic. For MGF I’d have him go from one to the other. One sets the scene for his enlightenment, the other triggers it. As long as it has teeth and allows him to get his cool weapons.

I thought it was supposed to occur on the Plateau of Statues where he is inspired by the giant statues' teeth.

[Noita]

Yay for the grantlands being razed. Go the Nomads!

[MOB]

6 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Yay for the grantlands being razed. Go the Nomads!

More from The Great Winter & Time of Two Counts:

...as life along the River of Cradles slowly returned to normal [after the Great Winter], out on the plains the Animal Nomads began to bring their herds back to their traditional grazing lands. Though the Armistice of Prax forbade attacks on settled territory, Sor Eel’s abrupt departure with most of the Lunar garrison during the Great Winter tempted increasing numbers of nomad bands to raid along the borders. Vega Goldbreath increased patrols and vigilance in Sun County, so most of the raiders tried their luck in Pavis County or better still the Grantlands, where the Lunar forces were spread the thinnest. 

An increased reliance on mercenaries backfired, when Halcyon var Enkorth reneged on paying them what they thought their due. Even before the Great Winter the Grantlanders had led a precarious existence, and since then suffered at the hands of the governor’s pitiless tax gatherers. The Longspear Slayers and Sir Holburn’s Axe brothers simply took to plundering themselves, forcing Duke Raus and other leading landholders in the Grantlands to raise money of their own to pay them off. 

The Sun Domers knew from their Yelmalio kin among the nomads that the tribes were becoming restive. Years of overweening arrogance by the Sables and their repulsive leader, the Great Khan Inire the Red, was sure to one day come to a head now there wasn’t the same Lunar force to back up their pretensions. While Vega Goldbreath’s policy was increased vigilance on the borders, to safeguard the Sun Dome’s interests Belvani began making regular visits to the Paps, bringing the elders gifts of gold, grain and salt. On one such visit, he brought a pure white calf...

[MOB]

Just now, MOB said:

More from The Great Winter & Time of Two Counts:

Another excerpt highlighting the plight of the hapless Grantlanders once Sor Eel departs the scene:

.. while momentous events wracked Dragon Pass and the Holy County throughout 1624, tensions continued to simmer in Lunar Prax. The farmers of the Cradle Valley once again enjoyed a bumper harvest, but Governor Halcyon’s insatiable appetite to enrich himself was continually vexed by his superiors’ relentless demands for men, beasts, equipment and slaves, all needed for the Reaching Moon Temple project in Dragon Pass. 

The nomad incursions grew ever more bold. Late in Sea season, Duke Raus sought an audience with Count Invictus on his way back from Pavis. He bitterly recounted that when he told the Governor nomads were now riding with impunity through his lands, Halcyon var Enkorth said he no longer had any troops to spare for such an unimportant, far-flung outpost, suggesting if Raus was unhappy he should go hire mercenaries of his own!

In frustration, the Duke dispatched a delegation of landholders led by his daughter Lady Jezra to Furthest to beg for relief from Tatius the Bright. His family fortune all but gone, in the meantime Raus had no choice but to offer the deeds to Ronegarth as collateral for Yelmalio Templar mercenaries, and place several treasured items in the Sun Dome vaults as further surety...

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I thought it was supposed to occur on the Plateau of Statues where he is inspired by the giant statues' teeth.

I’ve a yet unpublished timeline of Jaldon, I’ll see if I can put an outline of it here. 

[Yelm's Light]

6 hours ago, MOB said:

More from The Great Winter & Time of Two Counts:

...as life along the River of Cradles slowly returned to normal [after the Great Winter], out on the plains the Animal Nomads began to bring their herds back to their traditional grazing lands. Though the Armistice of Prax forbade attacks on settled territory, Sor Eel’s abrupt departure with most of the Lunar garrison during the Great Winter tempted increasing numbers of nomad bands to raid along the borders. Vega Goldbreath increased patrols and vigilance in Sun County, so most of the raiders tried their luck in Pavis County or better still the Grantlands, where the Lunar forces were spread the thinnest. 

An increased reliance on mercenaries backfired, when Halcyon var Enkorth reneged on paying them what they thought their due. Even before the Great Winter the Grantlanders had led a precarious existence, and since then suffered at the hands of the governor’s pitiless tax gatherers. The Longspear Slayers and Sir Holburn’s Axe brothers simply took to plundering themselves, forcing Duke Raus and other leading landholders in the Grantlands to raise money of their own to pay them off. 

The Sun Domers knew from their Yelmalio kin among the nomads that the tribes were becoming restive. Years of overweening arrogance by the Sables and their repulsive leader, the Great Khan Inire the Red, was sure to one day come to a head now there wasn’t the same Lunar force to back up their pretensions. While Vega Goldbreath’s policy was increased vigilance on the borders, to safeguard the Sun Dome’s interests Belvani began making regular visits to the Paps, bringing the elders gifts of gold, grain and salt. On one such visit, he brought a pure white calf...

Getting in early on the crowdsourced editing:

1.  Shouldn't that be Sor-eel?  I see it in any number of permutations on the net, but in the official sources I've seen it was spelled that way.

2.  Second sentence, second paragraph:  the tenses of the two clauses don't match.  "suffered" should be "had suffered".

3.  Second sentence, third paragraph:  "now there" should be "now that there".

[David Scott]

23 hours ago, Joerg said:

The text says that Jaldon disappeared into eastern Genertela, and returned as a crazed mystic. Did he enter God-Learner ruled Eest or Kralorela?

Revisiting this -where is the reference for this ?

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Revisiting this -where is the reference for this ?

It was originally from Pavis: Threshold to Danger and has been reprinted ever since, the most recent iteration being:

Quote

After a troubled life of adventure, where he may have
spent several years in the far east, Jaldon returned to
his nomad brethren

Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p33

 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

Revisiting this -where is the reference for this ?

It's the text repeated verbatim from Pavis in the Moondesign Pavis Gateway to Adventure book, p.34.

Quote

Jaldon was born among the wastes around 890 (give or take a decade), in a Bison tent. He was struck mad, they say, by statues of gods he saw in the ruins of the Tunnelled Hills, whose perfect teeth and sparkling grins inspired the diet-plagued barbarian.

After a troubled life of adventure, where he may have spent several years in the far east, Jaldon returned to his nomad brethren. From that time he was called Goldentooth by contemporary chroniclers, which indicates that he had already received the symbol of his power and was striving for Hero status even then.

I have to admit that I didn't get the implication of Jaldon possibly receiving Eastern mystical training earlier, either. I was researching if the date or at least season for Jaldon's success against the Pavis wall was known.

[David Scott]

Jaldon's timeline (greatly edited down)

890 Born on Waha's Birthnight. Bison tribe.
907 initiated in to the cult of Waha (Task of Waha and the Statues). 
922 Begins raiding raiding Pavis and the river valley farmers.
923 Becomes a Waha khan (Waha the Raider). 
924 leads invasion of Bison Riders, defeated by King Yanas.
925 Waha’s Birth Night, begins the year long Task of Waha’s Visionquest.
926 Waha’s birth night he is pulled from Eiritha’s earth womb by the Earth Witch. He is Waha Reborn. He displays his worthiness to be Bison Khan with the return of the Four Weapons of Waha; an unusual three-bladed sword, his oddly-shaped throwing discs, a lance which leaps out to reach its foe, and his pole lasso made from the hair of Eiritha herself. His awkward smile is changed and from now on he is called Jaldon Goldentooth. From across Prax many rally to his cause.
927 Jaldon leads a huge army of nomads against the city of Pavis. The zebra cavalry meet them in the fields south of the city and are destroyed. Siege of Pavis begins.
928-929 EWF send three small armies to attempt to liberate the city but each is repelled.
930 to 935 Many groups try to escape. Many succeed but as many are slaughtered. Mallia rises in the city. 
Jaldon and King Yanor meet on the Summit of Small Kings outside the city where Jaldon offers terms for surrender and ransom. King Yanor rejects and vows to fight on. Later Yanor is assassinated by demons. His son Jaran becomes king.
940 Jaldon returns to the Plateau of Statues (Task of Waha and the Statues). He returns from the Otherside to his power place with the Eating Statues. Pavis falls amid a horrendous bloodbath (25k dead)
950-955 Reluctant Paps Khan. After his great successes, Jaldon was naturally a candidate for Paps Khan. In 950 on the accession of Karataan Bison Mother as Most Respected Elder, Jaldon was chosen by the Goddess to be her husband. He struggled with the position, being tied to the Paps did not suit his warrior nature. But he used his position to best support the tribes. During this time he returns from the Green Age with Home - birthed by the Goddess herself.
He spends his time training his armies, instigating war games to teach them new tactics and tricks. He established the home hearths for the five tribes to allow the nomads practice defending fixed positions. These have become mistaken by outsiders to be the Tribal Altars of the Major tribes, of which there are no such fixed things. (Nomad Gods).
On the death of the most respected Elder he was released. His unification of the divergent tribes under his rule as Paps Khan had created an efficient fighting force. His armies surged behind him into Dragon Pass. 
After many years of raiding and plundering, the desperate EWF killed and dismembered him, his remnants taken to his powerplace and the curse in place.

The only time he could be away for several years would be 940-950, but then he was cementing his power base as Bison Khan. I don't believe he ever went to the far east. That's just a rumour that foreigners put about, as how could a nomad become that powerful without help. He could of gone to the East as part of Waha's Visionquest, but that is normally based wholly in the Wastes and Prax (Waha's Demesne). But then it would of been a tiny small part.

Making him older is one option giving him time from his initiation to the start of his raiding but he could be younger as well, making him a rare old before his time child hero (for MGF). However, this timeline is the one I'm currently using.

[Joerg]

What about the years 907 - 922? Those 15 years (coinciding with the Machine Wars) will have seen his life in the tribe, or will have given him opportunities to "adventure" further east.

We still don't know how he received his steed "Home", That reeks of personal quests rather than a mainstream life in the Bison tribe.

I see some possibilities for Jaldon to have quested into Green Age myths to obtain that strange steed. The other possibility still is that he went into Teshnos, possibly picking up some Zaranistangi magics through raiding.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Joerg
premature upload

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

We still don't know how he received his steed "Home", That reeks of personal quests rather than a mainstream life in the Bison tribe.

I see some possibilities for Jaldon to have quested into Green Age 

Yes as I said in the timeline, he receives home from a quest to the Green age, between 950-955.

[David Scott]

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What about the years 907 - 922? Those 15 years (coinciding with the Machine Wars) will have seen his life in the tribe, or will have given him opportunities to "adventure" further east.

That's certainly a possibility for the "may have" years. It was a time of  "a troubled life of adventure". A lot of stuff was happening for the nomads between 907 and 920, three waves of refugees flooded into Prax and the Wastes caused by the Two-Year Winter in Dragon Pass in 907,  refugees from war-torn Peloria and the Windless Typhoon that struck Dragon Pass in 917. Pavis took as many in as they could and settled many in the lands south of the city angering the tribes, the remainder were rich pickings for the tribes as slaves to be sold on. 

WIth the founding of the Zebra tribe in 1860, the arrowsmith Dynasty became Praxians themselves and in 914 the Most Respected Elder at the Paps was a Zebra Priestess of Eiritha. The other tribes were raging. The Zebra's had sole access to Paragua's grazing within the city walls.

I see Jaldon building his power base amongst the Bison Tribe in those years. He very quickly became Tribal Khan after becoming a khan. He is the most vocal against the Zebras and the city. 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

Yes as I said in the timeline, he receives home from a quest to the Green age, between 950-955.

I was wondering whether this may have been a piece of Loper magic. While we now know that the Lopers never were a Praxian tribe (in the sense of even acknowledging Waha's Covenant), they have been perceived as another weird beast riding tribe in the past, possibly even by Greg. A powerful quester like Joraz Khyrem was able to adopt his horses into the Covenant by making them zebras. The even more powerful quester Jaldon sired a new beast on the Goddess, or brought back a forgotten one.

But then, beware of the boggles that haunt some parts of the Tunneled Hills. Part of Jaldon's mystique might just be a Boggle gift. And his steed might, too.

An even weirder idea might be that he did all those Bison tribe things while he (or a portion of him, possibly ripped off or budded by the Boggles) went to the east, and at some time returned and got re-integrated (by being eaten - tooth magics, and all).

 

I would have expected his acquisition of Home way earlier, as an early signature move to Greatness. Do you have any unpublished sources for this late acquisition, or does this simply fit your conception of his timeline better?

 

Have you given any consideration to a possible tie-in with Androgeus via the Goldtooth epithet/power?

 

I am also quite disappointed to learn that for a while Jaldon was a regular khan of the Bison riders. I always thought of him as an oddball, not quite a power in the Praxian intertribal squabbles as presented in Nomad Gods, even if some of the contests may have been set up by him.

In the old hex-based boardgames, Jaldon is the leader of the oddballs, and not of the standard Praxians. It is quite ironic that the Barbarian Horde in the Dragon Pass boardgame pairs Jaldon with the Pol Joni, anyway.