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Opposed Skills Over 100%


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On 12/16/2017 at 5:16 AM, Pentallion said:

I know this:  all my players have unanimously said they hate the rule to reduce the skills.  If it also reduces the chance to crit and special that's a deal breaker.

That is why we preferred Option 1, sometimes you just habve to go Berserk with a good Bladesharp, just to increase the Critical chance and to reduce your opponent's parry chance. I have seen many RQ2 combats where going berserk was a useful tactic. In RQ3, not so much, as it didn't have anti-parry, so someone with 100% parry could fend off a berserker, so we houseruled to bring back anti-parry.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

Yeah I see your point, I don't tend to have campaigns long enough for attack skills to go that high. I would probably impose some restriction of how much the opponent's skill could be reduced to, perhaps they cannot be reduced below their Special Success chance, or something like that. I think having the option to choose between multiple attacks and reducing the opponent's roll seems to work well for me. If RQG forces you just to make only multiple attacks then that will be okay. Not a big issue, as it is often  the better option of the two anyway. But I'll just keep playing how I have for the past few years anyway.

In RQ2, Storm Bull Berserker doubled your attack skill against Chaos foes, so someone with 60% attack and Bladesharp 4 could get 60x2+20=140% and so had 40% Anti-Parry. That is not unreasonable even for a low-level campaign.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

In RQ2, Storm Bull Berserker doubled your attack skill against Chaos foes, so someone with 60% attack and Bladesharp 4 could get 60x2+20=140% and so had 40% Anti-Parry. That is not unreasonable even for a low-level campaign.

Yeah that's fine as that's the Beserk gift from worshiping the Storm Bull, it's meant to be magical so no restrictions should apply to that.

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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2 hours ago, Mankcam said:

Yeah that's fine as that's the Beserk gift from worshiping the Storm Bull, it's meant to be magical so no restrictions should apply to that.

I don't have different rules for magical.non-magical things, so a Storm Bull berserking with Bladesharp and a Rune Lord with 140% skill should use exactly the same rules when determining specials/criticals and so on.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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This may be a bit off topic, but it nice to hear how others have experiences skills around 100%. About gameplay and enjoying the game going over 75 % skill rates may make things more dull than enjoyable. However the aim is to be runelord or something, and that point maybe doing more political gaming. Some may ever retire at that point.

How gaming differs around 25 -45% skills, when fighting baboons and trollking, instead of around 90 %, when fighting greater opponents. I found out, that with RQ3 rules fights around 25-45% skill levels are suprisingly exiting. It may be, because I have played experienced characters much longer. Same spells, skill boosting, weapon boosting, great sword, which slays or debilitates normal foes easily with one blow if hits over 100%.

When starting new character, primitive herder. Only Man and his spear. It's not bad life, to have simple life. Taking care of cattle. No too much hassle about spells and boosts.

When playing RQ6 starting combatskills were around 60%. If boosting is made easy, it may lead quite soon into a bit too certain successlevels.

If that comes soon to reducing skills, I wonder if starting values are made too high. As earlier example pointed out about even 90% skill dropped to 05%, it maybe is not good development. When doing combat sports, every skilled fighter is always dangerous, if defence breaks somepoint. From logical point of view, if some person is simply better than other, does he actually affect other's skill and make him worse, or just finds out easier undefended places to attack = special and critical attacks.

Edited by Jusmak
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On 12/18/2017 at 12:06 AM, soltakss said:

I don't have different rules for magical.non-magical things, so a Storm Bull berserking with Bladesharp and a Rune Lord with 140% skill should use exactly the same rules when determining specials/criticals and so on.

I tend to view things a little differently, I would view that a 'magical beserk' to be something outside the realm of normality, so I would allow breakout rules for things like this, but that's just me.

On 12/18/2017 at 3:26 AM, Psullie said:

There is something to be said for keeping it low key. I was surprised with the QuickStart just how powerful the pregens were and while it was fun for a one-off it presented an odd view of RQ.

 I actually prefer starting skills to be a bit more powerful than the old RQ2 and RQ3 games ( like Mythras, OQ, RD100 etc where you add two characteristics together). However I prefer skill progression to be slow, and I wasn't impressed with the RQG Quickstart in how it  portrayed beginning characters. They seemed way too powerful, more suited to advanced games. I know the old zero-to-hero thing isn't in vogue anymore, however starting characters who are that powerful just doesn't feel right either. Not everyone wants to set games at that level, at least not during the early phases.

Hopefully there will be ways to tone char gen down if we want to start out with everyday folk. I don't mean inept dirtcrawlers, but starting out with highly proficient characters doesn't suit my style either as I would much rather characters progress to this level.

There is alot to be said to the BGB approach of allocating different skill point amounts during char gen, depending upon how powerful you want characters to start out at. I hope that RQG does something like this, to cater for everyone's tastes.

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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12 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

I tend to view things a little differently, I would view that a 'magical berserk' to be something outside the realm of normality, so I would allow breakout rules for things like this, but that's just me.

Nope... that is not just you ! I'm agree also about Berserk to be outside realm of normality. In RQ3, any abilities or spell which increase a combat skill beyond 100% don't permit multiples attacks of defence; BUT Berserk ignore most human limitations and attacks skills that goes over 100% allow to do multiples attack.
 

6 hours ago, Psullie said:

I was surprised with the QuickStart just how powerful the pregens were ...

Yes, they are in fact too powerful by some standard as they are 21 years old with more than 10 spells (but only 3-4 runes points !?). By RQ3 standard which create a clear link between age and skills/runes spells they should at least be 41y old to be at their levels (acolytes). But as pregens, they don't represent a standard character but more a "what your hero will be" example for players and they need high percentiles for people testing such rules as "opposed skills over 100%"

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14 hours ago, soltakss said:

That is why we preferred Option 1, sometimes you just habve to go Berserk with a good Bladesharp, just to increase the Critical chance and to reduce your opponent's parry chance. I have seen many RQ2 combats where going berserk was a useful tactic. In RQ3, not so much, as it didn't have anti-parry, so someone with 100% parry could fend off a berserker, so we houseruled to bring back anti-parry.

My group doesn't mind them parrying because you batter their parry weapon and knock them down where knockback becomes bounce off the earth so even if you parry while prone you take damage from knockback into a solid object.  

Eventually, the lost ap makes parrying useless.  

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On 17/12/2017 at 11:20 AM, soltakss said:

That is how we always played it in RQ2. Someone with a 200% skill has a Special of 40% and a Critical of 10%.

And, under my interpretation, the reason why Diamond dwarves had to reach 2000% in their craft, as it meant 100% critical chance (well, 95%, actually...).

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On 17.12.2017 at 7:26 PM, Psullie said:

There is something to be said for keeping it low key. I was surprised with the QuickStart just how powerful the pregens were and while it was fun for a one-off it presented an odd view of RQ.

When I played role(chart)master, It was quite clear, that game handled skills over 100% much better, unpredactibility remained.  So, I think, that RQ maybe is not at it's comfortable zone, when gaming reaches hero-levels, skills over 100, scaling issues. Maybe skills could indeed start from lower numbers, and mastery achieved earlier, say around 75 %? What would happen, if prieshood could be achieved, when five needed skills are at 75 instead of 90?

After all, by having large numbers in attack skills leads only, that fighting is against more experienced opponents. Same can be done otherway around, and have a bit more unpredactibilty in game, larger fumblerange for example, which I do like much in RQ.

Heroic feats, divine magic at hand, but gaming itself still would have enough randomness to be intresting. Idea, that it would be really hard to achieve skill level 90%, and after that attack split into two sound good here.

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1 hour ago, Jusmak said:

When I played role(chart)master, It was quite clear, that game handled skills over 100% much better, unpredactibility remained.  So, I think, that RQ maybe is not at it's comfortable zone, when gaming reaches hero-levels, skills over 100, scaling issues. Maybe skills could indeed start from lower numbers, and mastery achieved earlier, say around 75 %? What would happen, if prieshood could be achieved, when five needed skills are at 75 instead of 90?

After all, by having large numbers in attack skills leads only, that fighting is against more experienced opponents. Same can be done otherway around, and have a bit more unpredactibilty in game, larger fumblerange for example, which I do like much in RQ.

Heroic feats, divine magic at hand, but gaming itself still would have enough randomness to be intresting. Idea, that it would be really hard to achieve skill level 90%, and after that attack split into two sound good here.

...and then just make skill gain above those points quite hard - effectively stat-squishing RQ into its sweet-spot, instead of making the goal of getting your character to a skill level the game doesn't comfortably represent?

I can see that.  You could even smooth the whole thing into quartile tiers of 'how fast' those skills go up:

01-25 skill, you get a skill check for ANY use of the skill that's not a fumble.

26-50 you get a skill check for any success (as current RAW)

51-75 you get a skill check only for specials or crits

76-00 you get a skill check only for crits

101-125 you get a skill check only for crits, and a gain only if you fumble

Of course, this would mean that people would cluster at 50 and again pretty hard around 75. Not sure that's so great?

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9 hours ago, styopa said:

...and then just make skill gain above those points quite hard - effectively stat-squishing RQ into its sweet-spot, instead of making the goal of getting your character to a skill level the game doesn't comfortably represent?

I can see that.  You could even smooth the whole thing into quartile tiers of 'how fast' those skills go up:

01-25 skill, you get a skill check for ANY use of the skill that's not a fumble.

26-50 you get a skill check for any success (as current RAW)

51-75 you get a skill check only for specials or crits

76-00 you get a skill check only for crits

101-125 you get a skill check only for crits, and a gain only if you fumble

Of course, this would mean that people would cluster at 50 and again pretty hard around 75. Not sure that's so great?

I really like this as idea, and quartile tiers of development. It is a bit like seeing scale from 0-100, as absolute, where 0 means character knows nothing and 100 about everything of matter. So, there skills around 50 is more like, what mathematic gaussian distribution naturally shows. Only, that both ends are actually limitless. Does players enjoy playing that way, needs just testing a bit. That way it is at least easier to damage opponents weapon, when parrying missed hit, spells like bladesharp remain more useful longer., fumbles occur a bit freaquetly. From playabilyty's view, I don't see much against. Game will  work better.

Then there is this question, illusion of development, to what end. People will cluster at 50 skills, making them a bit similar. I think something has do at character creation. Enough variation should be done there, and maybe lowering development tier one decree at professional skills. I would move pressurepoint from skill development into magic, just making Glorantha a bit more magical. In RQ3 starting character had usually about 1-3 points of spirit magic, and spells capped to be maximum 3 points. If character gets at least one 3 point spell certain and other 2 point spell, I think gaming is fun and going fine.

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On 12/17/2017 at 3:43 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Yes, they are in fact too powerful by some standard as they are 21 years old with more than 10 spells (but only 3-4 runes points !?). By RQ3 standard which create a clear link between age and skills/runes spells they should at least be 41y old to be at their levels (acolytes). But as pregens, they don't represent a standard character but more a "what your hero will be" example for players and they need high percentiles for people testing such rules as "opposed skills over 100%"

I believe that RQG aims to have starting PC's (by default) to have their strongest skills around 85%, with 90% - 95% not impossible.

They intentionally are not hewing to the RQ2/RQ3 standards in this regard; those older games should not be taken as a reference-point except as a "not like that" anti-example.

The old "zero-to-hero" tropes will be presented as an "optional rule" I believe, just as "experienced adventurers" were given as optional rules under RQ2 ...

 

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7 hours ago, g33k said:

I believe that RQG aims to have starting PC's (by default) to have their strongest skills around 85%, with 90% - 95% not impossible.

They intentionally are not hewing to the RQ2/RQ3 standards in this regard; those older games should not be taken as a reference-point except as a "not like that" anti-example.

The old "zero-to-hero" tropes will be presented as an "optional rule" I believe, just as "experienced adventurers" were given as optional rules under RQ2 ...

 

I certainly hope so, but haven't seen any official comment to confirm that the zero-to-hero will even be an option - I was expecting to have to houserule that.

I personally find the 'starting as heroes' fairly odious. It's the climb that's the interesting bit for my players and I.  What's the point of a Skinner box without the reward of growing more powerful? (I recognize that plenty of gamers DO want to just step into a role and play that; it's just not what we want from our game.)

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this raises an interesting point, how important is character advancement ala D&D levels type thing to modern players. The recent trend of story being the prime driver, especially with RQ's deep dive towards HeroQuesting, could render the whole concept of slowly getting better and fighting tougher monsters redundant (from a pure skill level point of view). 

For some recent games character advancement seems like a last minute add-on rather than a core mechanic... definitely the zero-to-hero type game is very old school.

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17 minutes ago, Psullie said:

this raises an interesting point, how important is character advancement ala D&D levels type thing to modern players. The recent trend of story being the prime driver, especially with RQ's deep dive towards HeroQuesting, could render the whole concept of slowly getting better and fighting tougher monsters redundant (from a pure skill level point of view). 

For some recent games character advancement seems like a last minute add-on rather than a core mechanic... definitely the zero-to-hero type game is very old school.

My eldest son and his friends have just started a D&D campaign (none of them are experienced with D&D so it is new to them). They rotate around houses and last week they were at my house.

They had all started at first level and some have now just reached third level.

 

I was hoping to grab them for RQG, but I didn't want to have to teach them one set of rules then change the rules, so with the delay in the full version of RQG I wasn't in a suitable position to start a campaign.  I'm now hoping that by the time RQG is available their campaign may be slowing down due to an inexperienced GM.

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11 hours ago, styopa said:

I certainly hope so, but haven't seen any official comment to confirm that the zero-to-hero will even be an option - I was expecting to have to houserule that.

It's mentioned in the "Designing the New RQ" blog (where Jeff goes into why the default is NOT the "zero to hero" trope, but starting at/near "swordmaster" or comparable skills in other careers).  7th one.  Only mentioned in passing, but it DOES assert that this will be do-able:  If you want to play a "beginning" character, fine - but if you want to make a weapon master, you can! 

a Sartarite veteran warrior starts with a broadsword of 20% (with cultural modifiers). To that add a +15% Manipulation bonus. Our character is a veteran of a light infantry unit, so add another 25% to her broadsword. That gets us to 65%. She decides to be an Orlanth Adventurous initiate, so she gets another 10%, meaning 75%. Finally, she chooses to put the maximum number personal skill points - 25% - into broadsword

It's pretty clear how you'd lower the beginning PC's abilities:

  • start them before they Initiate to a cult (no bonus skills; or maybe +5% to one or two skills)
  • give them 1 or 0 prior battle actions, for 5% (or nil) bonus to apex combat skill
  • only half as much on their  "cultural" skills, to reflect basic training but no serious "experience"
  • lower the "personal skill points" both in total pool and in the max-per-skill

Similarly reduce the various Rune-affinity elements, of course.

Going by the "Broadsword 95%" Orlanthi swordmaster Jeff outlined in the blog-post, these few simple changes would turn her into 40%-skilled Uz-fodder.

I christen the aforegoing method "Appendix Nerf."

 

Edited by g33k
Appendix N
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Old french game Rêve de Dragon (aka Reve, the Dream Ouroboros in english), whose system was a mix of RuneQuest and James Bond 007 had an interesting rule concerning skill opposition.

An attacker had the opportunity to voluntarily lower his actual weapon skill level to reduce the defender's parrying weapon skill by the same amount.

Using it in RuneQuest would allow one to trade crit & special success chances only if they want to.

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