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Hit location armor


styopa

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How do you handle hit locations that have been badly-damaged or severed?

Again, my main background is RQ3, but I'd appreciate any input from alternative systems.

If the target has, for example, an arm that has 3hp, and has taken 6 (so no further damage can be taken by that limb), we recognized that sort of provided an inadvertent 'hit location armor' to the target - that nasty killer-critical could, if one was lucky (?) land on the mangled limb for ultimately no effect, 'wasting' that crit.

In a game with hit-locations and where magical 'props' to durability and pain are frankly common, we recognized this as a flaw.  For creatures with many limbs (particularly trivial limbs that don't affect body hp like centipedes) this could ultimately mean a good 40%+ chance of any given strike landing on a meaningless location.

So we houseruled this into two categories:

- where the limb is disabled but still present: it still 'exists' on the hit location table, and can take strikes. After the limb is disabled, later strikes (whether they penetrate armor or not) do 1hp damage to body hp.  Yes, this could result in the faintly-ridiculous possibility that a centipede could conceivably die after like 12 hits on the same limb, but we accept that if the combat is THAT DULL we probably all want it to end anyway.

- where the limb is actually SEVERED (in our game, 3x limb hp damage in a single blow, after 2x armor value...so relatively rare), then any hit on that location is re-rolled.

I'm curious what other GMs do in this case?

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We just assume the location is hit again. Even if severed, something is left, so a severed arm might have lost a hand, the arm at the elbow or whatever.

Edited by soltakss

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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RQ2 has it that a body part can only take 2x it's HP value in damage. a 3 HP leg hit for 8 damage will only reduce the total by 6. This however incapacitates victim. Further damage to that location does not reduce the location but does reduce the total. 

You could argue that for multiple limbed critters such as centipedes can fight-on with the loss of a few legs.  

Edited by Psullie
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On 17/12/2017 at 3:40 PM, styopa said:

How do you handle hit locations that have been badly-damaged or severed?

Again, my main background is RQ3, but I'd appreciate any input from alternative systems.

If the target has, for example, an arm that has 3hp, and has taken 6 (so no further damage can be taken by that limb), ...

So we houseruled this into two categories:
- where the limb is disabled but still present...
- where the limb is actually SEVERED ...

As RQ3 Master too, I mainly houserule by type of damage and HP lost in the strike (not total HP lost).

-(Type) : equal or more than 3HP / Equal or more than 6HP
-Slash type : no FP loss / limb severed & hemorrhaging cut at -1PV per round (lost in adjacent localisation -abdomen or torso- and in general)
-Impale type : Half FP loss / limb greatly damaged, regeneration of 1D20% of the limb needed if not heal in 10 rd
-Blunt type : All FP loss / limb damaged, regeneration needed if not heal by magic

And the total HP lost indicate if the arm is disable :
-at 0HP, the limb is disable but alive;
-at -3HP or less,  limb is disable and you've got 10rd to heal it Or the limb will stay disable for life (full amputation).
 

On 18/12/2017 at 6:43 AM, SDLeary said:

We got into the habit of rolling % dice to see how much of the limb was lost. Further hits to that location went to general HP IIRC if there was something left. If there wasn't, then it went on to the abdomen or chest.

I also start with D100 % lost and after that use 3D6 x 10%. Further damage was ignored but usually rise the % of member lost by 10%.

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5 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Who continues fighting after losing a limb? 

Depends what you mean by 'limb'?  Fingers/Toes?  Almost certainly, if your life is in jeopardy.  Hand/Foot, again, if you're otherwise dead if you stop fighting?  Probably.  Half arm/leg or more?  No, I don't think anyone could expect to continue fighting in that case (I'd maybe give heroic PCs a CONx1 roll each round to do so).  And we're talking about melee, really.  There are ample stories about men in modern combat fighting (continuing to shoot) heroically after losing a limb.  I mean, it's recognized as an extraordinarily heroic thing, but it's possible.

But that's just hominids. 

I could certainly see an 'enrageable' animal like a badger (or honey badger!) continuing to fight missing an entire limb, probably even serious predators if motivated (ie protecting young) like lions, tigers, etc.  I couldn't imagine a Tyrannosaur would much care if it lost a forelimb.

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1 hour ago, styopa said:

I could certainly see an 'enrageable' animal like a badger (or honey badger!) continuing to fight missing an entire limb, probably even serious predators if motivated (ie protecting young) like lions, tigers, etc.  I couldn't imagine a Tyrannosaur would much care if it lost a forelimb.

Yeah.  Most of the mustelids have that flashpoint over to blood-frenzy.

But if a major blood vessel severs, you've only got a VERY short window before bloodpressure drops... and the organism drops.

Except, of course:  this is Runequest.  There's magic.

:D

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We always used thresholds for Location Damage. 

*If an arm could take 3 hp, then a hit OVER 3 hit points MAY INCAPACITATE IT until healed.  When Damage exceeds the base HP Threshold, compare the Damage to the Average of STR and CON adding 1 point for every 10 points of SIZ   Skills like Healing CAN heal this damage.  The total damage healed is 1 point per 5 CON with a successful Skill check.  The healing period is 1 DAY per check.  Please note, we just determine the number of days for healing to occur.  We really don't track the individual points.  For example, a person with a 15 CON gets hit for 5 points in the arm.  It will take 2 days to heal the arm if no points are restored by a Healing Skill check (First Aid doesn't restore HP).

*If an arm has 3 hp, then a hit OVER 6 hit points would not only Incapacitate the location, but would require at least Spirit Magic to heal it back to use in the near term.  The First Aid or Healing skill can be used to stop bleeding but will heal no damage.  Such a wound could heal back NATURALLY to just a basic Incapacitation IF a healer treated the wound INITIALLY AND DURING THE STANDARD HEALING PERIOD (of ONE WEEK). To heal Naturally, pit the AVERAGE of the Character's STR and CON adding 1 point for every 10 SIZ points against the damage on the Resistance Table.  Success means Natural Healing can take place under a Healer's supervision.  A person's healing rate is 1 hp per WEEK for every 5 full points of CON the wounded character has.  Natural healing requires a successful Healing Skill check to occur EACH WEEK during the healing period.  Please note, we just determine the number of weeks it will take for the wound to heal.  we don't usually track actual points. For example, a person with a 15 CON suffers a 9 point hit.  It will take 3 weeks for that wound to heal.

*If a 3 hp arm takes a hit for MORE THAN 9 points, that arm is MAIMED and only Special Rune Level Magic (like our Chalana Arroy's Regeneration spell) will heal it.  The limb may be amputated if enough damage occurs.  I use ONE HALF of the AVERAGE of CON and STR and add 1 point for every 10 points of SIZ to get the wounded target's base Resistance Table number.  I then compare this to the TOTAL DAMAGE INFLICTED by the attack on the Resistance table to determine if an amputation has occurred.  Bludgeoning Damage is HALVED for determining an amputation.  We also roll percentile dice to determine the level of amputation.  A maimed limb still takes damage (and checks for amputation when it does) while an amputated limb may be missed (if the attacker rolls under the percentage of the limb amputated.  A hit that misses an amputated limb hits the torso (chest or abdomen based on whether the hit was to an arm or a leg).

We do NOT track individual hit points on the location charts.  A Spirit Magic Healing (but NOT First Aid or Healing Skills) can heal a functionally incapacitated location while Rune Magic would be needed to heal a Maimed limb.  Amputated limbs are beyond help.   The "death of a thousand cuts" occurs on the main Hit Point Track.  When the main track reaches 0, the player is down and dying.  A character is DEAD when Damage reaches CON in negative damage (ie a CON of 10 will die at -10).

We also break the Hit Point Track into 4 Levels with EACH LEVEL taking 1/4 of the total Hit Points (Rd).  The four Levels are: Lightly Wounded, Moderately Wounded, Seriously Wounded, and Critically Wounded.  The Wound Track for a character with 12 Hit Points would be;

  • Lightly Wounded: 12 to 10
  • Moderately Wounded: 9 to 7
  • Seriously Wounded: 6 to 3
  • Critically Wounded: 3 to 1
  • Deadly Wound Threshold: 0 to -CON below 0. 

      We add extra Hit Points at the rate of 1 hp per Wound Level, starting at the LOWEST Wound level (you could make things rougher by starting at the highest Wound Level).  For example, a character with 15 hp would have 3 "surplus" hit points after dividing the total by 4.  One point would be added to the Light Level, while one point would also be added to the Moderate, and Serious Wound Levels, making those levels higher than the Critical Wound Level.  The healing period for the Wound Track is 1 Day per Skill check.  The number of Hit Points healed is 1 per 5 points of CON.  This IS MODIFIED by the Wound Level (see below).   

   Light Wounds:  These only reduce the character's Strike Rank by 1 (we use a randomized SR that counts down).  The Character also cannot Sprint.

  Moderate Wounds:  These reduce SR by 1 as well.  Any Characteristics used in tests are reduced by 1.  Wounded Limbs reduce skills tests by X 0.75.  The Character cannot Sprint or Run.

  Serious Wounds:  SR is reduced by 2.  Any tests involving Characteristics are X0.75.  Skills tests are HALVED.  The Character cannot Sprint, Run, or Trot.

  Critical Wounds:   SR is reduced by 4.  Any tests involving Characteristics are HALVED.  Skill tests are QUARTERED.  The Character cannot Sprint, Run, Trot, or Walk. 

We record all Skill Levels at full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 1/5 (special), and 1/20 (critical) on the character sheet to expedite both damage adjustments and skill difficulty adjustments. This helps speed up the game.   

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On 12/21/2017 at 9:29 AM, Iskallor said:

Who continues fighting after losing a limb? 

Berserkers, The Black Knight (as mentioned above), Arachnids, Insectoids, people with Healing, people who absolutely just have to defeat the foe. There are lots of reasons to fight without a limb. Lose a hand? Sitck the stump into your foe's eyes to blind him. Lost a foot? Attack from the ground. 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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17 hours ago, olskool said:

1/ We always used thresholds for Location Damage.
...
2/ We do NOT track individual hit points on the location charts.  A Spirit Magic Healing (but NOT First Aid or Healing Skills) can heal a functionally incapacitated location while Rune Magic would be needed to heal a Maimed limb.  Amputated limbs are beyond help.   The "death of a thousand cuts" occurs on the main Hit Point Track.  When the main track reaches 0, the player is down and dying.  A character is DEAD when Damage reaches CON in negative damage (ie a CON of 10 will die at -10).
...
3/ We also break the Hit Point Track into 4 Levels with EACH LEVEL taking 1/4 of the total Hit Points (Rd).  The four Levels are: Lightly Wounded, Moderately Wounded, Seriously Wounded, and Critically Wounded.
...
4/ We record all Skill Levels at full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 1/5 (special), and 1/20 (critical) on the character sheet to expedite both damage adjustments and skill difficulty adjustments. This helps speed up the game.

1/ Basically, Incapacitate and healing test are opposing Damage and Fatigue Pts /2 + CON/10. And Healing is scaled by CON instead of flat recuperation.
2/ You don't write Hits by location but still need to have them... you spare too count the hp lost two time but if three location are hits, you need three different healing spells or treatment...
Without tracking hit point location how do you do this ?

3/ Globally,  a good idea but a bit clumsy and complex :
Light (PV > 3/4) : SR-1, Sprint
Moderate (PV > 2/4) : SR-1, CAR-1, Skill -1/4, Run
Serious (PV > 1/4) : SR-2, CAR-1, Skill -1/2, Trot
Critical (PV > 0/4) : SR-4CAR x1/2, Skill -3/4, Walk
To sum up my point of view : SR decrease is fine, Characteristics ones is bad, skills malus are punishing and the movements limitations are fine to me.

4/ You have 4 skills levels x Critical and special levels = 8 scores for one skills ... I may have not understand well but it's a bit hellish and if I write it down ...
-Standard Healing 37%
-Olskool Healing
37% (7%, 2%) / 27% (5%, 1%) / 18% (4%, 1%) / 9% (2%, 1%)
... it is really hell !

I will personally advise you to use to create a flat modifier or at least a Ouroboros (Rêve de dragon) like table of modifier, you will gain a lot of times. In Ouroboros each -1 equal -5% of the skills but you ca easily create one for you game. You will only need to write the skill once an use this table (you can had special and critical columns to spare having 2 tables).

646176caractristique.jpg

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6 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

1/ Basically, Incapacitate and healing test are opposing Damage and Fatigue Pts /2 + CON/10. And Healing is scaled by CON instead of flat recuperation.
2/ You don't write Hits by location but still need to have them... you spare too count the hp lost two time but if three location are hits, you need three different healing spells or treatment...
Without tracking hit point location how do you do this ?

3/ Globally,  a good idea but a bit clumsy and complex :
Light (PV > 3/4) : SR-1, Sprint
Moderate (PV > 2/4) : SR-1, CAR-1, Skill -1/4, Run
Serious (PV > 1/4) : SR-2, CAR-1, Skill -1/2, Trot
Critical (PV > 0/4) : SR-4CAR x1/2, Skill -3/4, Walk
To sum up my point of view : SR decrease is fine, Characteristics ones is bad, skills malus are punishing and the movements limitations are fine to me.

4/ You have 4 skills levels x Critical and special levels = 8 scores for one skills ... I may have not understand well but it's a bit hellish and if I write it down ...
-Standard Healing 37%
-Olskool Healing
37% (7%, 2%) / 27% (5%, 1%) / 18% (4%, 1%) / 9% (2%, 1%)
... it is really hell !

I will personally advise you to use to create a flat modifier or at least a Ouroboros (Rêve de dragon) like table of modifier, you will gain a lot of times. In Ouroboros each -1 equal -5% of the skills but you ca easily create one for you game. You will only need to write the skill once an use this table (you can had special and critical columns to spare having 2 tables).

646176caractristique.jpg

I don't use RQ3's Fatigue Points rules.  I have a special system based on Fantasy Hero's Stun Damage.  The wound tests are done when the limb is damaged in combat.  A wound that can be healed by Natural/Skill-Based healing is denoted by an N with the number of days it takes to heal afterward.   A wound that requires spirit magic to heal is denoted with an S and the number of days to heal it.  A wound that requires a rune magic healing spell to cure is denoted with an R followed by the number of weeks needed to heal.  An amputated limb is denoted with an Amputated: "%"  where the percentage listed is how much limb remains.  This is resolved (by the resistance table) when the wound is inflicted and subsequent wounds to that location are ignored UNTIL a worse wound is inflicted.  Damage is still tracked on the main Damage Track in total (a 9 point hit is recorded as 9 points regardless of what damage a location can take).  This is usually what ends a fight.  

As for the Skill Reductions:

We use the RQ6/Mythras system with Difficulty Levels.   We use 7 skill Difficulty Levels and conditions will shift by level for difficulty increases.  So a small target or slippery footing may shift you one Skill Level worse.  Surprise can improve your chance by one Skill Level.  The Damage Modifiers mirror this.  Our Difficulty Levels are:

  • Very Easy:  2 X Skill %
  • Easy: 1.5 X Skill %
  • Average:  Base Skill % and the default skill for most tasks.
  • Fairly Difficult:  0.75 X Skill %
  • Difficult:   0.5 X Skill %
  • Formidable: 0.25 X Skill %
  • Impossible:  0.1 X Skill %

Tasks are set by these standard difficulties and they are recorded for EVERY SKILL (along with special success chances) during character creation.  This way, when I call for a Formidable test of Spot Hidden, the player simply looks it up on his character sheet.  The reductions due to damage are simply following the same system.  Since this system is used for all tasks (where the Difficulty Level is named along with the skill involved in a given task), it becomes quite intuitive.   

     Characteristic Score Reductions:  

 We reduce characteristic just like skills because there should be REAL CONSEQUENCES for getting wounded.  The Reduction in scores is only used for Resistance Tests or Characteristic Checks (very rare in our games).  We do NOT go back in and "refigure" skill bonuses.  As a result, this modifier really only shows up in Resistance tests.  

Yes, our house system CAN be pretty brutal.  In fact, it works fairly well because it applies to the bad guys as well.  Most bad guys will flee (or surrender) when they hit the level of a Serious Wound.  Very rarely do you see large piles of dead combatants in our campaign. 

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11 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

I will personally advise you to use to create a flat modifier or at least a Ouroboros (Rêve de dragon) like table of modifier, you will gain a lot of times. In Ouroboros each -1 equal -5% of the skills but you ca easily create one for you game. You will only need to write the skill once an use this table (you can had special and critical columns to spare having 2 tables).

646176caractristique.jpg

Hmmm, there was a few good ideas in Rêves de Dragons. You just gave me the urge to crack open the book again...

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On 12/24/2017 at 8:28 AM, styopa said:

Olskool, when people succeed at a skill check, is there any learning modifier then for the difficulty?

Ie if I pass a formidable scan test, is my later skill check just against my normal scan or is that modified'

This would depend on certain circumstances.  If the Difficulty Shift was the product of injuries, conditions or the special ability of an animal, I would not.  If the Difficulty Shift was built into a scenario as a part of the adventure, I would consider allowing it based on how difficult and how important that task was to the adventurer's progress.  The key to using Difficulty Shifts is not to OVERUSE a given difficulty level.  Average Difficulty (base skill) is the default for a reason.  Here are some notable instances where I do use a predetermined Difficulty Shift during an adventure.

  • Shimmer Cats:  I don't use Defense in my games (preferring Dodge instead).  I simply give the Shimmer Cat a magic ability that causes a 2 Difficulty Level shift in an attacker's chance to hit.  Thus, an Average chance to hit (Base Skill) becomes Difficult (1/2 Base Skill) when trying to hit a Shimmer Cat.
  • Hidden Doors: I frequently use Difficulty Shifts for concealed or hidden items.  Some hidden items are just easier to find than others.
  • Locks or Traps: I had a strong box that required a Formidable Lockpicking to open.  The characters couldn't open it and had to lug that strong box back to Pavis and pay a locksmith to open it.   

This does work both ways and I do put Easy Skill Tests in my adventures as well.  The players once had to get past a disgruntled Trollkin guard.  They had watched him be bullied by a Troll and could see he was mad.  They decided to try a Persuasion test on him and sweetened the pot with a bribe of Silver Guilders.  This made the Persuasion test to convince the Trollkin to let them pass and remain silent about it an Easy Difficulty Test.  The plan worked flawlessly.  

 

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