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jeffjerwin

Some miscellaneous questions about Volsaxiland

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4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

If Sanuel is Mularik, rather than simply being replaced by him, it's possible he would still be a Baron. Mularik is from Dangim, in Seshnela/Ralios, which does use the title. It's possible Mularik was a baron there, before fleeing when his lands were invaded.

Barons no longer exist in Seshnela/Ralios or Glorantha.  The Dangim March which was a Barony in the Genertela boxed set is now a County for example.

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23 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Does that mean the WBaRM and Dragon Pass (the war game) are non-canon now? Because that's where "Baron Sanuel" comes from. I suppose we out to have a Kethaelan vocabulary for titles, much as we do for Western peoples. Or did Belintar simply adapt Jrusteli titles... if so it might be a clue where he originates.

Can't say specifically why that title/name not liked, but don't believe it is coming forward.

23 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

They are said merely to worship "foreign" gods in Sartar:KoH

 Which I think just means they were one of the heavy adopters of the Lunar cults or Yelmalio or both.  But the clan has not been overly elaborated on.

 

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7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

When did Mularik arrive in Heortland?

If it wasn't until Harrek's invasion, this leaves a gap where the semi-canonical materials specified a "Baron" being overlord of the Volsaxi and guardian of the road from Whitewall to Karse. I'm tentatively thinking Gold-gotti would take his place (and I'm definitely rejecting the "call out" in naming Gold-gotti "Auric" in the Dragon Pass gazetteer...). Or should the man in charge of patrols and tolls be a Pelorian?

This has significant impact on my campaign, but I'm not at a point yet where it's come up directly.

We know that Mularik was sailing with Harrek and Argrath at least part of the way.

My old campaign had him in Heortland as a companion of Rikard until 1620.

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25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

We know that Mularik was sailing with Harrek and Argrath at least part of the way.

My old campaign had him in Heortland as a companion of Rikard until 1620.

If I recall correctly you had Rikard (and Mularik) working for the Governor-King down south in the 16-teens. Were they hired before Jar-Eel said hello to Belintar, or in the chaos that followed? I'd love to have Mularik Iron-eye in my game. He seems quite memorable. At some point he must have joined Harrek, I guess roughly when Harrek invades the Manirian coasts (c.1616), most likely when the money dried up - after Belintar's enforced retirement - while the more idealistic Rikard stayed behind to try to protect the Esvulari...

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Some notes (for critique or comment):

Currently (my game is in 1609), I've got a king who is not Broyan (his name hasn't come up in conversation yet, so if anyone has a good idea let me know) at Whitewall, who succeeded the king who (i'm positing) died at Caroman Pass in 1602. "Enfrew" - which seems to be a Jondalaring name based of the old DP gazetteer - was king way back in c.1555, but he's long dead. I think Tarkalor contemplated or even intended to become the King at Whitewall before his cousin unexpectedly died. So there may have been an interregnum around then.

Broyan is supposed to be from Markdale, which is Sylangi territory. If he's initially king of the Volsaxar Confederation rather than the Volsaxing tribe, he could be a Sylangi, though being born in an aunt or cousin's stead isn't impossible. He's just an adventurer in 1609. (This is why I was so obsessed with working out the details of the Sword and Helm, as I think having the HQ done by him and his friends - the PCs - would be a great end to the First Act of the campaign).

I have four tribes in the Volsaxar Confederation, which works more or less like a City Ring with the King at Whitewall taking the place of the Mayor. The biggest is the Volsaxing or Volsaxi tribe, which has 8 clans and a city: Smithstone. The latter has both native bloodlines and bloodlines from the surrounding clans. The other, smaller tribes are the Bacofi, who were once as mighty as the Volsaxi, but now only have 4 clans. King Hroar (from the DP book) converts to the Lunar way in 1619 and is allowed to annex three clans from the Volsaxi by the Empire. The rump of the Kultain tribe - just 1 clan - is around Derensev and Centaur Cross. The greater part of that tribe was around Two-top and consisted of three more clans. The "northern Kultain" were given to the Sylangi in 1619. Between the southern Kultain and Two-top was the Sylangi tribe of two clans, in Markdale and the Auroch Hills. The Kurtali were refounded by Tarkalor and the Night-jumpers in c.1560 and had six clans in 1621. Finally I have the Whitewall domain, where there are large bloodlines belonging to all of these tribes, as well as two independent clans directly dependent on the High King.

(I realize this is a mess, but it seemed like an organic mess, more likely to emerge over the centuries than the more cohesive Sartari situation, where not only is there a lot more real estate available, but people are more conservative and thus the cities are subordinate to the tribes.)

(There reason there's a division of the Kultain is the statement in canon materials that Derensev was guarded by the Kultain, when the library is closer to Kurtali territory. However, fragmentary tribal territories are not exactly unlikely, so I just went with it. The backstory is they originally settled unclaimed land right next to the Cross line - no one else wanted it - and allied with the Locaem - whom I had based out of Smithstone - see my question above - to seize Balmyr lands, though the Sylangi had already squeezed into the Auroch Hills along the way. They ended up with land less than a day's ride/march from their original settlements, so they sent off people to hold Two-top and kept their old steads too.)

Derensev is right up against the Cross Line. In my game, I have Scholar Wyrm living there. After the Dragonkill he guarded the place and loaned out books, but most of the building was actually forbidden to humans.

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6 hours ago, metcalph said:

Barons no longer exist in Seshnela/Ralios or Glorantha.  The Dangim March which was a Barony in the Genertela boxed set is now a County for example.

Maybe my version of the guide is out of date, but it still refers to barons on page 413 (when talking about Balifes uniting Tanisor.)

And in King of Sartar, it mentions Mularik becoming a baron before he returned to aid Argrath in the Hero Wars (Mularik fragment, pg 147)

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2 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Maybe my version of the guide is out of date, but it still refers to barons on page 413 (when talking about Balifes uniting Tanisor.)

And in King of Sartar, it mentions Mularik becoming a baron before he returned to aid Argrath in the Hero Wars (Mularik fragment, pg 147)

Barons in both cases is in lower case indicating a type of potentate (e.g. media baron in the RW) rather than a formal title of nobility.  Elsewhere Barons has been purged.  As well as the aforementioned Dangim March, there is also the Marcher Barons, now the Marcher County.  Stylistically Baron simply does not fit within the current vision of glorantha - it is too medieval, moreso than saints and knights.

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41 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Barons in both cases is in lower case indicating a type of potentate (e.g. media baron in the RW) rather than a formal title of nobility.  Elsewhere Barons has been purged.  As well as the aforementioned Dangim March, there is also the Marcher Barons, now the Marcher County.  Stylistically Baron simply does not fit within the current vision of glorantha - it is too medieval, moreso than saints and knights.

Count and duke are also used in the lower case form, and are equally medieval terms. And yet I don't think we can assume the Sun Domes are no longer ruled by a count.

While the baron is not used as much, it is still used. And I don't think in a merely comparative sense.

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13 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Count and duke are also used in the lower case form, and are equally medieval terms. And yet I don't think we can assume the Sun Domes are no longer ruled by a count.

Counts and Dukes are used far earlier than Barons were, as they were used in the late Roman Empire.  Ergo they can be understood without medieval associations.  Baron OTOH does not.

13 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

While the baron is not used as much, it is still used.

I'll believe it is used as a formal title when I see a reference in canonical material to someone being named as a Baron of place X.  Currently that does not exist and my understanding is that it is not likely to happen.

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Comes/Count and Baro[n] are both Late Latin Uses, but I suppose that the former is slightly older as it was used in the Late Roman Empire, whereas the other just mean "mercenary" back then... Hey!

We could use Baro[n] as a word meaning mercenary and it wouldn't need to change anything! Of course it seems also to have mean "idiot" in Celtic. Huh.

I'm definitely imposing some sort of mocking South Theyalan puns on the Esvulari titles in my game.

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Heroforming Vingkot: A Discussion of Broyan’s Biography

If Broyan became a Vingkotling/Kodigvari king by heroquesting, he had to seize upon certain actions and events to define himself that way.

1. Birth. Vingkot was the son of Orlanth and a woman of the On Jorri, Janerra Alone. The name Janerra appears in various variations fairly frequently among the Hendriki – that is, we have Queen Janerra in the Bull War, a figure we ironically know a little more about. Janerra was either named after the On Jorri woman or was her lineal descendant (in myth these are much the same thing). She may have had a matrilineal line, as with the stories about Argarth’s mother and the Sartari. This would make her ancestor one of Vingkot’s full sisters [could be Vinga] (!). As pointed out by Mr. Jajagappa, Ernalda, as we know from the many parallels the Herakles legend, and in Glorantha, Orlanthi law, would have cursed Vingkot and his mother for Orlanth’s adultery.

The name Janerra “Alone” surely means she would not marry.

The On Jorri, of course, have been speculated to have been an Earth clan from Holay or Saird.

If Janerra of the Volsaxi had a tradition of being descended from the On Jorri, she certainly manifests her ancestress’s characteristics of pride, sexual transgression, and beauty.

2. Childhood Gospel. Vingkot, the son of a God, is able to do marvels. [This is simply an assumption based on RW mythology.]

In this case, the parallels are with Herakles and Jesus. Vingkot is either raised by his mother alone, or by a foster family to whom he was secretly given by Orlanth.

We’ll note that Broyan was born in Markdale, in either Sylangi or the borders of Volsaxi territory. Heort’s Laws make illegitimate children a part of the mother’s clan. I strongly suspect Broyan was a child of a single mother, whose married lover died at Caroman Pass in 1602, or at Grizzly Peak in 1582. (Still working out the dates, but the latter works very well, as Grizzly Peak… was Vingkot’s northern stead and possibly the site of his death by being burned alive). If Broyan was born in 1582, and his mother did not abort him specifically because her lover died fighting alongside Tarkalor, he would be 35 when he became High King at Whitewall. That’s a very likely sounding age.

As such Broyan would have been told about Vingkot’s bastardy to give him spirit to resist the taunts of his playmates and bullies. This would have set his path in motion as he identified with the bastard son of Storm. Moreover it would have given him a powerful desire to have a “father” – and the willingness to invent one in his childhood fantasies.

3. Initiation: If he was born in 1582 he would have been 15 in 1597. I’m leaning toward this date.

If he was a youth and initiate his first wartime experience would probably have been with the two hosts of Volsaxings that fought the Lunar Empire in 1602 [he would have been 20] at Quackford and Caroman Pass, in an unsuccessful attempt to relieve Salinarg at Boldhome. These battles were a disaster for the Hendriki. I doubt if had manifested the Rune yet.

4. Receiving the Vingkot Rune. This heroquest is perhaps the one with the most possibilities. We know Harmast Barefoot accomplished this (by accident?!) after his initiation at the Verge.

Kodig went, we may note, got the runes from his father at Arrowmound.

‘After Kodig proved himself, Vingkot took Kodig to Arrowmound. There Vingkot marked Kodig with the same secret runes of power that Orlanth had marked Vingkot with. By doing this Vingkot shared with Kodig with his powers of kingship.’ [BoHM, p.91]

Note that the Rune is not the same rune as the basic tattoos of the Vingkotling tribe, or else Vingkot would not have given it to his son in secret. The Vingkot Rune, which is well known (now), is a Air Rune marked with three spokes extending from the top and lower left and right [Air + Mastery]. However this rune is discernable in many Lhankoring maps found in HotHP and other sources. Harmast’s Rune was unknown to Hendrik.

Both the Verge and Arrowmound are relatively close to Broyan’s stomping grounds in Volsaxiland. The Harmast-based heroquest, though probably more dangerous, has the advantage in specifically being a quest that intentionally or not made the enactor (who was not born a Vingkotling) a Vingkotling with the secret rune.

Broyan (like Argarth) had a profound experience in his initiation: we know this because he had extraordinary command of the wind and mastery thereafter. Whether he got drawn into Harmast’s initiation journey is unclear, but since there’s no reason to believe this could have been done deliberately, we can’t be sure that Broyan didn’t repeat the quest at the Verge site. There are a number of aspects of the Verge that are useful to this…

Chiefly, the Verge in c.1602-1613 is still under the control of the rebel Dundealos, who, like the hero band that undertook the quest in the First Age, were on the borders of a vast northern Empire – the Bright Empire.

The other reason is that the Verge is very close to Hendrikiland and is accessible through the summertime passes in the Storm Hills, via Gutlig Pass, the Skullpoint Pass, or Eurhol’s Vale.

Harmast’s initiation was very dangerous as it was assaulted by Lokomayadon himself. This means no doubt that a Lunar magician and his band were drawn into the hero quest…

Dating Broyan’s second initiation and adoption into the Vingkotlings is difficult, but I’d put it no earlier than 1608-9, when he (if we accept my dates) was 25.

5?. Broyan beheads/binds his Wind Spirit. This event is clear from the illustration from the Guide, p.250. I haven’t any information that links this to Vingkot, but the spirit he bound could have challenged his claim.

6.- Heroforming/questing events Broyan might undertake as Vingkot’s mortal proxy: (dating uncertain)

Vingkot receives the Sword and Helm from Gustbran. [Note my theories, however, about the Sword and Helm heroquest, where Broyan might also have entered the story to gain these objects.] In hero quests, of course, one carries the objects intended to heroform the artefacts from the Godtime into one’s quest. Broyan therefore probably commissioned recreations from the master smith of Smithstone, Gustbran’s sacred forge.

Vingkot kills the Grizzly (at Grizzly Peak in Tarsh). This is a defining moment in heroforming Vingkot, as it extended his sovereignty to the North. If his father died here Vingkot might visit to repatriate his ashes/bones. (If we posit he was illegitimate, his father’s ‘other family’ might seek to possess the ashes as well.) If Broyan sought his dead father this would conceivably reenact the quest of Heort at the Hill of Orlanth Victorious/Desertus, where he laid to rest the ghost of his ancestor.

Vingkot marries the two daughters of Tada after completing Three [Impossible] Tasks set by their father. I suspect he courted both and ended up marrying both, and established two steads to house his two families: Grizzly Peak in the North and Orin Jistil in what is now the Upland Marsh.

Tada, of course, may be met at his grave in Prax.

He kills the dragon Zaranforis in Peloria. Zaranforis is an ancestor of wyverns. The Lunars have a military formation that rides wyverns… [This suggests the Lunar conquest of Prax, in 1610.]

He fought the Darkmen and the Iceman. The former is easy, given the proximity of trolls to Hendrikiland. The latter… perhaps involves a visit to Inora’s summer home in the Storm Hills.

7. Broyan takes in Leika and Kallyr. This was in 1613 or a few years later. Broyan would be 31. He has enough influence to harbour them in Hendrikiland but isn’t necessarily king yet; I think he was still the notorious leader of a heroband.

This heroband would be modeled on Vingkot’s Staple Ring, naturally.

8. A Tarshite report describes Broyan in 1617: ‘One of the Kethaelan petty warlords was a powerful warrior named Broyan Volsax, who had discovered sacred artifacts of ancient kings and become very powerful. He had convinced many people of Heortland, the land atop the eastern plateau of Kethaela, that he was the reincarnation of their ancient ancestor, King Vingkot and claimed to bear the longlost Sword and Helm. This is the same demigod who had fought so hard against our ancestor, Brown Sanak Gorolfsson, the Son of Summer who rescued us from the Rebel Gods. Broyan had unified many Orlanthi clans outside of imperial control and his raiders were disturbing the peaceful tribes of Sartar. Even more problematic, Broyan was providing support and aid to the remaining rebels in Sartar.’ [Composite History of Dragon Pass, King of Sartar, 2nd ed., p.137]

9. Vingkot turns back Worcha Rage at Whitewall by hero-forming his father [summoning Orlanth]. This is clearly part of the Siege of Whitewall and battle with the Crimson Bat.

 

[to be continued…]

Edited by jeffjerwin
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Some more notes on Broyan and Vingkot, covering the period from c.1613 to his death in 1625 (and beyond):

(backtracking a bit to start tho:)

Jeff Richard's article on the Dundealos in Hearts in Glorantha states that there is a legend that Urox raised the Storm Hills to separate his quarreling friends Vingkot and Tada. This implies that Vingkot's marriage to Tada's daughter(s) was perhaps a peace weaving, and this adds to the likelihood that "The Marriage of Vingkot" might be a HQ that brings peace between Praxians and Heortlings. The cult of Vela claims credit for arranging the marriage of Vingkot and the Summer Wife (BoHM, p.163). "Onetree" is perhaps the meeting spot (BoHM, p.75).

To ideally heroform Vingkot, Broyan ought to marry at least one Praxian woman (at least temporarily).

In 1613-5 'Beti' Leika of the Colymar joined Broyan's war band.

c.1616: Jane Williams suggests that the Volsaxi king was slain and Kallyr (and presumably Leika) helped Broyan take the throne. This however could take place as early as 1613.

Broyan's accession if at the earlier date took place perhaps before Starbrow's Rebellion, so he would be ideally situated to harbour the fugitives. Becoming a king is a pivotal moment in Broyan's "hero forming" and therefore is highly likely to have been done 

c.1616-7: from the Digest, by Jeff Richard: "High King Broyan's companions would have challenged the fame of the great kings of old. There were five kings in his service: Kallyr Starbrow, the famed warrior queen, Leika the Archer, the exiled queen of the Colymar, and three kings of the Volsaxi - Daransen, Tarkalor, and Orldaran. Three great war leaders were in his service: Harasarana Red Hair, Manabrar the Ram and Orngerin Thundercape. Vestalanth, Voice of Whitewall, spoke for Broyan; Dastal Firebreath fought for Broyan; and Haadaral, Lord of the Bridge, guarded access to Whitewall.  Three great priests were there - Darlarnst, High Priest of the Volsaxi, Ferernalda, High Priestess of Ernalda, and Dinvara the heartless Chalana Arroy priestess. Even Orvanlanth the Wild Man, Aventus Hilljumper,who sees everything, and Korlmhy the Troublesome Poet, was there. Even the three famed foreigners were there - Gindaki, Champion of the Kitori, Dasvu the Urox Lord, and Kestongari, the traitor wizard. Not since High King Tarkalor has any king kept such a household." [http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd/2006.03/2244.html]

1617: Orngerin the Sophisticate dies (following the chaos of his master's dismemberment) and Broyan defeats the guardians left by Belintar to prevent a king of the Hendriki from being crowned.

1619-21: Siege of Whitewall.

In 1621 we have the Windstop. Broyan would have attempted the summoning of Orlanth via sacrifices like his hero: "In the end, Vingkot offered sacrifices to Orlanth and the Great God returned from his wanderings. Orlanth threw his thunderbolts at the lawless gods who had gathered at his court and chased off the worst of them. He then submitted himself to Ernalda and took his place beside he." (BoHM, p.81). This of course won't work on its own.

In 1621 Broyan and his followers appeared at Bullflood/ford and raised a rebellion against the Lunars. My thought is that they used the Hendriki routes through the Storm Hills and the Verge to find Hendrik's refuge on the south side of the Print after the fall of Whitewall. Assassins, traitors, and spies sent to kill Broyan all fail.

The On Jorri are said to have been joined to the Orlanthi, though they were from Peloria, by Vingkot (whose mother was one of them). [BoHM, p.75]

The "Cleansing of the Durevings" legend from the era of Kodig might have been utilised to re-convert Esvulari or, even more likely, Lunarised clans. (See BoHM, pp.85-6)

c. 1623: Liberation of Esrolia period. The Vingkotlings defeated the boar-worshipping Mraloti (Harandings), who became vassals/members of their community. This sort of action might be applicable to the war with Graymane and the Manirian Mralotling descended tribes, or to battle with the Aramites in Dragon Pass.

In 1625 Broyan's death is linked to the Kitori, though Vingkot's death at Stormfall was at the hands of a minor Chaos godling (BoHM, 104). The nature of Broyan's death suggests a geas. "In Kethaela, King Broyan marched north with a small volunteer army. Among the Kitori, a little bright light was snuffed out, and a demon which had many sharp mouths was let out of its skin. It sought vengeance, and fell upon the army of King Broyan while they slept. The king could not keep it away, because he had betrayed the City of Wonders, and he was killed there, with his army." (KoS 2e, p.125) The generally held interpretation is that Broyan failed at the Shadow Sacrifices. I believe that Broyan, as a "Vingkotling", mistakenly held himself above the oaths of Heort and Ezkankekko. One could reconstruct a geas along the lines of: "You will not fall by a friend, nor by a foe. You will die of a biting thing, but it will be impossible to see, and have neither mouth nor face. The thing that slays you will come on you unawares, and you will not know its errand, but it will not be bootless murder, but lawful feud."

1673?: Argrath when to Broyan's Hall to hide when the Lunars recovered Dragon Pass and set out from there on his Lightbringers' Quest.

c.1679: The battle of Dead Heroes - Broyan returns: probably involves the "Eternal Ring of the Vingkotlings"

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7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Some more notes on Broyan and Vingkot, covering the period from c.1613 to his death in 1625 (and beyond):

 

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

(backtracking a bit to start tho:)

Jeff Richard's article on the Dundealos in Hearts in Glorantha states that there is a legend that Urox raised the Storm Hills to separate his quarreling friends Vingkot and Tada. This implies that Vingkot's marriage to Tada's daughter(s) was perhaps a peace weaving, and this adds to the likelihood that "The Marriage of Vingkot" might be a HQ that brings peace between Praxians and Heortlings. The cult of Vela claims credit for arranging the marriage of Vingkot and the Summer Wife (BoHM, p.163). "Onetree" is perhaps the meeting spot (BoHM, p.75).

To ideally heroform Vingkot, Broyan ought to marry at least one Praxian woman (at least temporarily).

More to the point: an Eiritha priestess from the Oasis population or the sedentary Paps population. With the post of Most Reverend Mother held by a Sable queen (IIRC) and the Paps far away, he could have snuck across the Storm Mountains and have wooed an oasis priestess. Possibly Cam's Well or Pimper's Block.

But the world of Vingkot is broken inside Time. There is no way a Vingkot king can do exactly like Vingkot, unless he manages to retrieve Tada.

Basically, I read this as a wonderful character concept for a sage follower of Broyan (or later on Argrath, or any other hopeful founder of a Vingkotling dynasty) - research all those forgotten myths and suggest weird magical alliances.

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

In 1613-5 'Beti' Leika of the Colymar joined Broyan's war band.

c.1616: Jane Williams suggests that the Volsaxi king was slain and Kallyr (and presumably Leika) helped Broyan take the throne. This however could take place as early as 1613.

Broyan's accession if at the earlier date took place perhaps before Starbrow's Rebellion, so he would be ideally situated to harbour the fugitives. Becoming a king is a pivotal moment in Broyan's "hero forming" and therefore is highly likely to have been done 

So basically, you have Broyan starting out as _a_ king of the Volsaxi before 1613, and becoming _the_ King of the Volsaxi sometime after Kallyr's revolt?

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

c.1616-7: from the Digest, by Jeff Richard: "High King Broyan's companions would have challenged the fame of the great kings of old. There were five kings in his service: Kallyr Starbrow, the famed warrior queen, Leika the Archer, the exiled queen of the Colymar, and three kings of the Volsaxi - Daransen, Tarkalor, and Orldaran. Three great war leaders were in his service: Harasarana Red Hair, Manabrar the Ram and Orngerin Thundercape. Vestalanth, Voice of Whitewall, spoke for Broyan; Dastal Firebreath fought for Broyan; and Haadaral, Lord of the Bridge, guarded access to Whitewall.  Three great priests were there - Darlarnst, High Priest of the Volsaxi, Ferernalda, High Priestess of Ernalda, and Dinvara the heartless Chalana Arroy priestess. Even Orvanlanth the Wild Man, Aventus Hilljumper,who sees everything, and Korlmhy the Troublesome Poet, was there. Even the three famed foreigners were there - Gindaki, Champion of the Kitori, Dasvu the Urox Lord, and Kestongari, the traitor wizard. Not since High King Tarkalor has any king kept such a household." [http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd/2006.03/2244.html]

The liberation of the Spirit of Freedom from Belintar was what allowed Broyan to revive the Hendriking kingship in more but in title. That's a different claim to overkingship than the Vingkot myths, the historical influence of the Larnsti instituting (mythical) change in Time rather than retreading Godtime myths.

If you look at the heirs of the Larnsti kings of the Hendriki, they managed to avoid conquest by either Slontan God Learners or the EWF, although their area of influence dwindled significantly during the heyday of those empires. They remained a traditionalist spark that never was attempted to extinguish, unlike those southern Pelorians who were draconically subdued by (Isgang)Drang.

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

1617: Orngerin the Sophisticate dies (following the chaos of his master's dismemberment) and Broyan defeats the guardians left by Belintar to prevent a king of the Hendriki from being crowned.

This is blamed on the effects of Broyan acceding to the Sword and Helm (and the Kodigvari tattoo).

I am not certain what exactly Orngerin attempted. He is a much under-characterized player, and while the timeframe when he would have been met by player characters has been put ten years into the past of the current products' "now", I would like to revisit the theme of my Heortland campaign which was set in the last years of the last governor king of Heortland.

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

1619-21: Siege of Whitewall.

Cutting a lot of drama of 1619 short, with Broyan choosing to defend Whitewall rather than to disperse into the woods like the Hendriki of old did.

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

In 1621 we have the Windstop. Broyan would have attempted the summoning of Orlanth via sacrifices like his hero: "In the end, Vingkot offered sacrifices to Orlanth and the Great God returned from his wanderings. Orlanth threw his thunderbolts at the lawless gods who had gathered at his court and chased off the worst of them. He then submitted himself to Ernalda and took his place beside he." (BoHM, p.81). This of course won't work on its own.

The Windstop was created over Broyan's not quite dead yet body. The defense of Whitewall would have taxed his ability to create huge magical effects for the rest of that year.

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

In 1621 Broyan and his followers appeared at Bullflood/ford and raised a rebellion against the Lunars.

Several weeks after the Fall of Whitewall. However he and his companions managed the defense of Whitewall, they would not have come out of that struggle without a scratch.

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

My thought is that they used the Hendriki routes through the Storm Hills and the Verge to find Hendrik's refuge on the south side of the Print after the fall of Whitewall. Assassins, traitors, and spies sent to kill Broyan all fail.

This is all the Hendriki "survival in obscure places" theme. What would be a major weakness to any other claimant to Vingkotling kingship - the lack of a seat of power to rule from, like e.g. Sartar's Boldhome - works in Broyan's favor as he re-lives the Hendriki origin.

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

The On Jorri are said to have been joined to the Orlanthi, though they were from Peloria, by Vingkot (whose mother was one of them). [BoHM, p.75]

That's something that only the sage companion character I talked about earlier would have on his agenda while the king was moving from hideout to hideout. I am strongly reminded of a novel about King Sverre of Norway (one of the earliest Norwegian kings after those covered in Snorre's Heimskringla) which had him running around, creating the famous Birkebeiner event that still is remembered as a long range skiing competition. Which is very much to the point, given the conditions created by the Windfall.

Wikipedia on King Sverre

This is quite a good source of inspiration for a king having to face what Broyan did.

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

The "Cleansing of the Durevings" legend from the era of Kodig might have been utilised to re-convert Esvulari or, even more likely, Lunarised clans. (See BoHM, pp.85-6)

Hmm. Grasping at mythical straws here? Roitina's dance relies on the presence of the gods and goddesses, after all what the Durevings suffer from is their displeasure, not their absence.

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

c. 1623: Liberation of Esrolia period. The Vingkotlings defeated the boar-worshipping Mraloti (Harandings), who became vassals/members of their community. This sort of action might be applicable to the war with Graymane and the Manirian Mralotling descended tribes, or to battle with the Aramites in Dragon Pass.

The Arrowmound myth is pretty non-localized in ie in relation to the Vingkotling rulers. Jarani is a grandson or great-grandson of Jorganos, but his adventures may have taken place while Kodig was king, or after the demise of Rastagar - we simply don't know.

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

In 1625 Broyan's death is linked to the Kitori, though Vingkot's death at Stormfall was at the hands of a minor Chaos godling (BoHM, 104). The nature of Broyan's death suggests a geas. "In Kethaela, King Broyan marched north with a small volunteer army. Among the Kitori, a little bright light was snuffed out, and a demon which had many sharp mouths was let out of its skin. It sought vengeance, and fell upon the army of King Broyan while they slept. The king could not keep it away, because he had betrayed the City of Wonders, and he was killed there, with his army." (KoS 2e, p.125) The generally held interpretation is that Broyan failed at the Shadow Sacrifices. I believe that Broyan, as a "Vingkotling", mistakenly held himself above the oaths of Heort and Ezkankekko. One could reconstruct a geas along the lines of: "You will not fall by a friend, nor by a foe. You will die of a biting thing, but it will be impossible to see, and have neither mouth nor face. The thing that slays you will come on you unawares, and you will not know its errand, but it will not be bootless murder, but lawful feud."

So you want to make it personal, caused by the King, rather than an ironic back-lash from taking on an office with old debts nobody told him about, or debts that he thought he was above and beyond?

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

1673?: Argrath when to Broyan's Hall to hide when the Lunars recovered Dragon Pass and set out from there on his Lightbringers' Quest.

Apart from the bogus date based on KoS, "Broyan's Hall" might be an Other Side hide-out, similar to e.g. the Karandoli hidden valley hinted at in Jalk's Book.

 

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

c.1679: The battle of Dead Heroes - Broyan returns: probably involves the "Eternal Ring of the Vingkotlings"

That's a very Vingkot moment - Vingkot received his mortal wound in a battle long after his death/ascension.

 

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Jarani is a grandson or great-grandson of Jorganos, but his adventures may have taken place while Kodig was king, or after the demise of Rastagar - we simply don't know.

I like the idea that the dispute over Arrowmound came about due to Rastagar's demise.  It was part of Kodig's land, but when that line ended, Jarani seizes it by possession while Harand, married to Urgkronika, the sow‑wife (sounds like a good Ernaldan/Esrolian figure), claims it by establishment.  

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

That's something that only the sage companion character I talked about earlier would have on his agenda while the king was moving from hideout to hideout. I am strongly reminded of a novel about King Sverre of Norway (one of the earliest Norwegian kings after those covered in Snorre's Heimskringla) which had him running around, creating the famous Birkebeiner event that still is remembered as a long range skiing competition. Which is very much to the point, given the conditions created by the Windfall.

Wikipedia on King Sverre

This is quite a good source of inspiration for a king having to face what Broyan did.

 

There's a Heort-ski Vale on the south side of the Marzeel near the Styrman Hills. I think this might have been imagined as part of Heort's magic - and therefore a part of ancestral knowledge to the Hendriki...

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

So you want to make it personal, caused by the King, rather than an ironic back-lash from taking on an office with old debts nobody told him about, or debts that he thought he was above and beyond?

 

(in regard to the Shadow Sacrifices)

If no one told Broyan about the Shadow Sacrifices then his sages and law speakers have committed malpractice.

The Shadow sacrifices appear many times in Hendriki king lists, which I read as "in-universe". Yes, I think Broyan committed an act of hubris. He said "I am a king in the manner of Vingkot, not a Heortling chieftain!" (or some such) and dismissed the notion of continuing them. Vingkot is not an ally of trolls: he "fights the shadow men".

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

So basically, you have Broyan starting out as _a_ king of the Volsaxi before 1613, and becoming _the_ King of the Volsaxi sometime after Kallyr's revolt?

 

Well, there's only a few paths that take one to high king of a confederation...

Being a (royal) thane; being a respected chief, or, better, a tribal king, or having some sort of relationship to recent kings (and being at least a thane).

Let us look at 1613-5 - at this point Broyan sheltered Leika and Kallyr. To do so he had to have the authority, at minimum, equivalent to a Dar chief. This would allow him to offer them salt and shelter. This means that Broyan had a hearth.

By 1617 Broyan is able to challenge the provincial governor, Orngerin, and Belintar's magical wards and seize the kingship of Heortland/the Hendriki. To do so requires a massive hero quest, with many supporters. These supporters are siding with Broyan as a manifestly political act. No Lunar assassins have winnowed the numbers of the descendants of the Volsaxi kings - they can't, really, because the kingship is elective and "everyone is descended from kings" is a part of the reality in the area.

So by 1617 Broyan is a highly plausible candidate for Volsaxi king, at least among a magically potent minority of tribal leaders. Jane Williams' dates (from her Kallyr research) suggests that the old king died by possible malfeasance but we didn't know about Orngerin's possession of the regalia then. The exact means of deposing and killing Orngerin might be a version of the Bad King Urgain heroquest (in fact, his name sounds kinda similar, which would be handy for any rhymes in the chanting). If they used that one, Orngerin would be transformed from amiable bureaucrat into a cruel tyrant, but that's a mythic necessity... An even more perilous choice, however, would be confronting the Bad Emperor, and given the mythic overlap between Vingkot and his father, this might have been chosen.

By 1621 the Sartari in Whitewall are a good portion of the defenders. In fact, Broyan's power probably rests in his strange friends. It is not impossible that in 1613 Broyan, seeing his friends fleeing the Starbrow Rebellion, did a "Creation of the Clan Ring" rite and created a clan from his followers and kin somewhere in neutral or disputed ground (perhaps on the eaves of the Troll Woods) and thus arranged things to be able to legally give them refuge. If so this would fit very well with a Vingkot persona. This made his group not just a war band but also a political player.

Until 1617 there's no real Hendriki king, so the name Volsaxi/Volsaxar suggests to me that the four tribes of the north were under the customary "presidency" of the Volsaxi tribal king. Which also strongly suggests that Broyan gained that title before he could challenge Orngerin. My own campaign had/had it that the old king was murdered as a preparatory step to the Lunar invasion in 1619, a few years prior. Exposing this murder and the malfeasance of another candidate for the throne I have planned as an adventure...

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8 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

 

More to the point: an Eiritha priestess from the Oasis population or the sedentary Paps population. With the post of Most Reverend Mother held by a Sable queen (IIRC) and the Paps far away, he could have snuck across the Storm Mountains and have wooed an oasis priestess. Possibly Cam's Well or Pimper's Block.

But the world of Vingkot is broken inside Time. There is no way a Vingkot king can do exactly like Vingkot, unless he manages to retrieve Tada.

Basically, I read this as a wonderful character concept for a sage follower of Broyan (or later on Argrath, or any other hopeful founder of a Vingkotling dynasty) - research all those forgotten myths and suggest weird magical alliances.

 

 

Maybe there's a connection with Argrath White Bull - later an ally of Broyan's - and the Praxians to this attempt to "find" Tada? Maybe Broyan's decision to seek the Vingkotling mantle is a result of his partial success here? In which case the "seeking of Tada" and "Double Marriage" hero quests might have been researched and attempted in c.1610-1612... and Broyan uses the mythic power accumulated by the attempt to return to Hendrikiland and forge a new ring. I see another veteran of this quest being Argrath of Pavis... and the Healing at the Pairing Stone as being quite possibly misplaced in that narrative. The Pairing Stone may be significant to Vingkot's marriage...

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