My map of Volsaxiland

[jeffjerwin]

I call on Chalana Arroy to resurrect this thread...

(Mainly so I can include another promised map)

This is my map of Hendrikiland during the Orlanthland period. I've marked the Orlanthland/EWF settlements. What this does show is that when one draws a ten mile radius around the Orlanthland cities (and the temple on Mt Quivin) - mostly post-Dawn and probably post-Bright Empire - and perhaps directly derived from Issaries trading posts on the rivers, the outline of the "benighted pagans" - the Old Traditionalists - are quite clear. It also shows why the Kitori salient existed in Forthanland and the Neutral Hills up till Tarkalor's War (c.1560): because those regions were beyond the hinterlands of the cities. The three northern Hendriki tribes, the Volsaxi, Sylangi, and Bacofi, are also discernible in their original stomping grounds: it's clear they retained their identity because of the absence of direct Orlanthland/EWF influence. The hollowing out of the core Garanvuli/Hendriki centre around Whitewall is also apparent, which is why the surviving tribes are all descended from clans that bordered the sacred centre rather than having a direct link to the Gavrenings (which are now (c.1610-25) a remnant of their former glory).

[Note: the Kitori of the Neutral Hills presumably had to withdraw into the chunk of their territory south of the Stone Cross, but it would not surprise me if their entry into the Forbidden Lands to reclaim their territory was even earlier than the Colymar as they had the direct support of the Uz around Blackwell.]

[Note 2: The Kitori presumably rejected Draconic mysticism as they had access to Darker secrets as well as the knowledge of Black Arkat. I wonder how Darkness secrets and Black Arkatism interface with Argrath's revival of Draconic magic in the mid-1620s...?]

Edited March 13, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[Joerg]

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I call on Chalana Arroy to resurrect this thread...

(Mainly so I can include another promised map)

This is my map of Hendrikiland during the Orlanthland period.

I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't undo the topographical changes made by the death of the serpent which destroyed Akez Loradak and created the Lead Hills.

From the travelogue of the God Learner expedition to Hendrikiland, I get the impression that Zatan Lake (now in Kitori lands) was part of the core Hendriki lands, and not really troll-dominated.

The Sylangi and Bacofi appear to have been tributary tribes of the Kitori (almost like Vendref) before Tarkalor ousted the Kitori from the Amber Fields around Vaantar. The Kitori may have had an unfair advantage in the Crossline, providing a border they could cross (at least in troll shape), but their enemies couldn't.

It isn't quite clear what there was before the Lead Hills collapsed across the Creek-Stream River. It may have been agricultural land used by Hendriki or Kitori. The Kitori certainly lost big way when Akez Loradak collapsed, and probably were more than just decimated. It took less than a century before Belintar supported them over the rebellious Volsaxi.

We do know that there was a sufficiently large troll and/or Kitori population in the woods inside the Crossline that they formed a major faction in the troll conflicts that followed the Dragonkill. They appear to have acted independent from the Kingdom of Night, and without direct support from the Shadow Plateau. We learn from the God Learner expedition that even Hendriki lands were much heavier forested than what is shown on Third Age maps.

 

 

Speaking of the Crossline - Centaur Cross was just one of many such crosses, and only received individual importance by the rite of neighborhood performed there by Belintar and the centaur king.

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I've marked the Orlanthland/EWF settlements. What this does show is that when one draws a ten mile radius around the Orlanthland cities (and the temple on Mt Quivin) - mostly post-Dawn and probably post-Bright Empire - and perhaps directly derived from Issaries trading posts on the rivers, the outline of the "benighted pagans" - the Old Traditionalists - are quite clear. It also shows why the Kitori salient existed in Forthanland and the Neutral Hills up till Tarkalor's War (c.1560): because those regions were beyond the hinterlands of the cities. The three northern Hendriki tribes, the Volsaxi, Sylangi, and Bacofi, are also discernible in their original stomping grounds: it's clear they retained their identity because of the absence of direct Orlanthland/EWF influence. The hollowing out of the core Garanvuli/Hendriki centre around Whitewall is also apparent, which is why the surviving tribes are all descended from clans that bordered the sacred centre rather than having a direct link to the Gavrenings (which are now (c.1610-25) a remnant of their former glory).

I wonder why you chose to use Derensev as part of the urban territory. I suspect that Derensev was the Lhankor Mhy library of least use to the God Learners since they couldn't just copy the oral tradition kept there, and that may have been a deliberate decision by those priests.

The Hendriki survived the Slontan activities further south once again by decentralizing and refusing to offer cities which could easily be taken over. Their neutrality to the dragons may have been bought with the Kitori tribute to the Kingdom of Night.

 

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

[Note: the Kitori of the Neutral Hills presumably had to withdraw into the chunk of their territory south of the Stone Cross, but it would not surprise me if their entry into the Forbidden Lands to reclaim their territory was even earlier than the Colymar as they had the direct support of the Uz around Blackwell.]

The Kitori are sufficiently non-human not to have been excluded by the Crossline. They may have had to don troll or dehori shape to cross it, but once north of it they may have reverted to human shape. That means they only would have had to arrange their bit of the depopulated lands with the dragonewts of the Quivin mountains in the north, the beastfolk in the west and their troll allies in the east, and that translates to Sun Dome County.

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

[Note 2: The Kitori presumably rejected Draconic mysticism as they had access to Darker secrets as well as the knowledge of Black Arkat. I wonder how Darkness secrets and Black Arkatism interface with Argrath's revival of Draconic magic in the mid-1620s...?]

Darker secrets and dragon secrets aren't mutually exclusive. The monster slain by Belintar whose body and bones form the lead hills may very well have been such a draconic cum darkness secret. The role of the Kitori in the defense of Akez Loradak against Belintar is unknown, as are their losses when the obsidian palace collapsed.

 

 

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

 

[jeffjerwin]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't undo the topographical changes made by the death of the serpent which destroyed Akez Loradak and created the Lead Hills.

From the travelogue of the God Learner expedition to Hendrikiland, I get the impression that Zatan Lake (now in Kitori lands) was part of the core Hendriki lands, and not really troll-dominated.

I wonder why you chose to use Derensev as part of the urban territory. I suspect that Derensev was the Lhankor Mhy library of least use to the God Learners since they couldn't just copy the oral tradition kept there, and that may have been a deliberate decision by those priests.

The Hendriki survived the Slontan activities further south once again by decentralizing and refusing to offer cities which could easily be taken over. Their neutrality to the dragons may have been bought with the Kitori tribute to the Kingdom of Night.

I'll fix the river soonish and post along with the Hendrik-Harmast-Arkat map I'm working on right now.

Zatarn's people may have looked quite human to outsiders. Dekko, where I place a Kitori presence, however, is a deeply Darkness-rune connected location (and Zatarn is descended from the Styx...). Thus while Kitori lived around the Neutral Hills and Forthanland in perhaps greater numbers, the Kitori would have also clustered around the sacred sites. The Shadow Sacrifice sites (save one at the Syphon) are all located between Whitewall, the Fossil Forest and Zatarn, after all.

Derensev appears on the Second Age map in GS's Esrolia map as a major landmark. In my interpretation, it was a sacred site not just to the God of Knowledge, but to others, built on a tribal boundary. However it lies adjacent to Centaur Cross, suggesting that the city was bisected by the Cross Line and destroyed. The library may have been on the safe side of the line (or not...? if Scholar Wyrm can be connected to it). In any case Whitewall is called out as "ruins" in the Esrolian map (and was forbidden to the Hendriki would-be kings), and Derensev might serve to replace it. Either way there was some sort of control exerted over the remains of Ilisbervor.

[jeffjerwin]

A couple more things: Darkness mysticism is plausibly linked to Darkness as the first elemental form; if the Draconic Egg/Universe emerged out of Darkness, suspended in Chaos, it might be said to be the child of the primeval Abyss.

Cragspider notably "enslaved" a True Dragon which is suggestive as well.

As to "My Travels in Hendrikiland" (HotHP) there are two observations I'd make about it. First, the author has only an imperfect understanding of the "krjalki" among the Hendriki. This is not surprising given Jrusteli biases. "We did not go there" is pretty telling regarding Sen Senrenen and the Kitor Wilds... It is also interesting that Derensev's links to Kerofinela are underscored in terms of their language, as Kerofinela was then under EWF domination; given this shared mode of communication - which is distinct it seems from Nochet's "philosophers" I think it likely that Derensev was an intellectual interface between the cities of the north and the Hendriki. Again, Heremel has only a superficial look at the inner activities of the Hendriki there.

---

Below is a map with the river corrected and the Lead Hills effaced. Looking at the map in the Guide (V.II, p.715) we see that a lower range of hills, covered in light forest, extended from the Destor Hills toward the river. The forest suggests agriculture was not intensive to me. However, the rich soil born of the beheading of Veskarthen's volcano would have been ideal for farming. I tentatively suggest Basalt for the Plateau and Gabbro in the fields below (I am not a geologist, mind you).

Note that Anjoralin[n]i is placed differently on different maps. Perhaps the settlement moved due to flooding? I have it at the confluence of the Creek-Stream and the Dreven, but the map I cite above places it near Blackwell.

[This is where the post Dragonkill armies of the Heortlings would have crossed the river to reach northern Esrolia, btw.]

The name Derensev is probably linked to 'Dreven' (*D[e]re[n]) and hence I speculate to Durev, the stead-man, who was carved from wood. I suspect the root word is connected to hardwood. At the Dawn the area was on the boundary of the Orgovaltes, the Koroltes, and the Garanvuli (and the Shadow Plateau) and probably involved a ford towards Akez Loradak.

I would therefore link the western Kitori to the Durevings, a subject people. The whole area between the Plateau and the Dragon's Eye is seemingly linked to the Durevings, who were the farmer caste among the Storm Tribe and were ruled by descendants of Vingkot.

Edited March 14, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[jeffjerwin]

This is a map of the era of the Bight Empire:

I place the Creek Stream ford battle near Olorost; the site is somewhere below the confluence of the Creek and Stream, and Olorost guarded the ford that led to the Dragon Pass itself, which was the area of the Arkati-BE's battles in that decade.

Bonn Kanach appears on the map in the Guide, p.714, which may be an alternate name or a mistake for Bonn Karpach. Voss Varainu appears as Voss Varaina; these may be linguistic changes over the centuries and the other forms contemporary with the EWF. It is possible that the EWF altered the names of places to fit with Auld Wyrmish meanings.

Two-top, Ulaninstead, Brondagal, and Seriasdova are all Vingkotling hillforts. The Shadow Sacrifice cites tended by the Garanvuli and proto-Kitori are marked in blue. The Summer-Winter Owl trails I identify with the white tracings across the Storm Hills that link Old Wind, Last Cast, and the Verge to Sen Senrenen. We know that Hendrik used both the heights of the mountains and the Steal Woods south of the Print as refuges against Fendal Gbaji.

Maps in the guide suggest to me that the Garanvuli used slash and burn to clear the hills around Seriasdova/Ilisbervor for their needs; certainly there's a gap of about 10 miles around the settlement that has little forest cover. This would also have given the women and men posted on the walls of the fortress a fairly clear view of approaching enemies. However, Hendrik as a Hunter/Gavrening clansman would have been safer and more accustomed to the seclusion of the forests that rise beyond Finovan's Grove.

Hendrik to me suggests a Finn mac Cumhail-like figure, and his band is very reminiscent of the Fianna. I'm sure there are analogues in other cultures.

 

[Joerg]

19 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

A couple more things: Darkness mysticism is plausibly linked to Darkness as the first elemental form; if the Draconic Egg/Universe emerged out of Darkness, suspended in Chaos, it might be said to be the child of the primeval Abyss.

Cragspider notably "enslaved" a True Dragon which is suggestive as well.

To be fair, it is the Black Dragon, the one tied to Darkness (Red: Fire, Green: Earth, Brown: Storm). The Blue Dragon Aroka had been transformed into the Oslir River, and later Engizi brought Lorian's water down.

 

19 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

As to "My Travels in Hendrikiland" (HotHP) there are two observations I'd make about it. First, the author has only an imperfect understanding of the "krjalki" among the Hendriki. This is not surprising given Jrusteli biases. "We did not go there" is pretty telling regarding Sen Senrenen and the Kitor Wilds...

Sure. His report gives about as much a full picture of the region as do the Persian and Cordoban reports on Hedeby. But unlike the rest of History of the Heortling Peoples, this report gives a description of the land, its settlement patterns, and the claim of Hendriki rule.

I am far from clear whether the Tax Slaughter ended the Kitori tribute for the Hendriki, or whether they chose to continue to maintain their loyalty to the Only Old One through at least a semblance of this tribute. The Foreigner Laws of Aventus fail to mention Kitori, but that may just mean that Aventus did not claim authority over the OOO's kin at any time, and neither did future Hendriki kings. In that case, having Kitori holy places in Hendrikiland may have been just the natural consequence of their allegiance to the Kingdom of Night.

I wouldn't necessarily equate these holy places with population centers, though. Dekko Crevice is a gateway to the Underworld that plays a role in Hendriki religious life.

 

19 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

It is also interesting that Derensev's links to Kerofinela are underscored in terms of their language, as Kerofinela was then under EWF domination; given this shared mode of communication - which is distinct it seems from Nochet's "philosophers" I think it likely that Derensev was an intellectual interface between the cities of the north and the Hendriki. Again, Heremel has only a superficial look at the inner activities of the Hendriki there.

Does it say that Derensev used Auld Wyrmish? I don't think so. "The same curious script as the Kerofinelans" probably means that Heremel was served Western transscripts of Nochet volumes rather than the original documents in the Lhankor Mhy scratches.

There is still some lingering confusion due to the claims in earlier documents (Uz Lore in Troll Pak and the Glorantha Book in Genertela Box) that "God Learners" inflicted Auld Wyrmish on scholars in Nochet in 575, significantly before the Jrusteli movement was even conceived. But Vistikos Left-Eye came from Nochet before he went into the wilds to establish the Hunting and Waltzing Bands, so the Nochet library would have documents about Auld Wyrmish that summarize Vistikos' knowledge.

 

I am more disturbed by his claim that the "Imprinting One" was central to the Great Library famed for its maintenance of oral tradition.

 

19 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

 

Below is a map with the river corrected and the Lead Hills effaced. Looking at the map in the Guide (V.II, p.715) we see that a lower range of hills, covered in light forest, extended from the Destor Hills toward the river. The forest suggests agriculture was not intensive to me. However, the rich soil born of the beheading of Veskarthen's volcano would have been ideal for farming. I tentatively suggest Basalt for the Plateau and Gabbro in the fields below (I am not a geologist, mind you).

Akez Loradak is also named the Obsidian Palace. Greg Stafford is not a geologist either. Myself, I am a chemist with part-time knowledge of geochemistry, and Obsidian is basically slightly impure silica glass, whereas basalt is the silica-poor form of eruptive rock, and those two never occur side by side in our world. Both Stewart Stanfield (of duxploitation fame/notoriety) and Andreas Pittelkow (well known to the regulars of Eternal Convention), who are professionals on this field, have confirmed this.

If Gloranthan magma is anything similar to terrestrial magma, then obsidian won't come out of the same magma chamber as basalt. Felsic lava is well suited to produce the phallic original mountain that was truncated by Argan Argar, before "chaining" Veskarthan to produce another, though slimmer and hollow, phalic extrusion, the Obsidian Palace aka Akez Loradak.

I do wonder now, though, whether "Lodril's/Vestkarthan's spear lying about" in the Footprint myth might have been the shorn-off top of the Shadow Plateau.

 

19 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Note that Anjoralin[n]i is placed differently on different maps. Perhaps the settlement moved due to flooding? I have it at the confluence of the Creek-Stream and the Dreven, but the map I cite above places it near Blackwell.

That city is admittedly difficult to place. "The Sun sets early in Anjoralini" clearly indicates that it lies east of the plateau cliffside, and not north of it. "on the left side" refers to the eastern shore of the river, yet "half a mile from the plateau" indicates that the river must lick the base of the plateau at Anjoralini. From talking to Greg about the Creekstream River while overlooking the Rhine at Bacharach, a river width of merely half a mile would indicate a narrow passage of the river rather than its usual wide bank - a situation not unlike the Lorely promontory a little to the north of Bacharach. 

 

19 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

[This is where the post Dragonkill armies of the Heortlings would have crossed the river to reach northern Esrolia, btw.]

Further north, if the travelogue in King of Sartar is correct.

 

19 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

The name Derensev is probably linked to 'Dreven' (*D[e]re[n]) and hence I speculate to Durev, the stead-man, who was carved from wood. I suspect the root word is connected to hardwood. At the Dawn the area was on the boundary of the Orgovaltes, the Koroltes, and the Garanvuli (and the Shadow Plateau) and probably involved a ford towards Akez Loradak.

Hmm. I could back slurring "Durev" to "Drev", and hence "Durevan" to "Dreven", but barring strange strong declinations that insert an extra syllable in a word, I don't see any way to go the other way and insert lots of sounds to get towards Derensev. I'm not a linguist, but I learn related languages among other ways by using observations of linguistic shifts to guess at unfamiliar words. Simplification of words is the usual direction, and to get more complexity, chained words are collapsed into a single word, from which complexity slowly gets eroded. (Like in Pendle Hill.)

The initial "Der" also occurs in "Derik". There is a possibility of that Der coming from Dur, with the "-ev" being omitted when chaining the word with whatever "ensev" may stand for, but the seconde "-ev" will hardly be related to the front "Dur". (Unless this is something like Dur-fucking-ev... Sorry about the f-bomb, but that's the only case of random insertion between two syllables of a name that I am aware of.)

19 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I would therefore link the western Kitori to the Durevings, a subject people. The whole area between the Plateau and the Dragon's Eye is seemingly linked to the Durevings, who were the farmer caste among the Storm Tribe and were ruled by descendants of Vingkot.

Ho hum. I don't think that the term "caste" is really applicable to Orlanthi. High status usually is inherited only when the office goes to the same household. The Vingkotling lineages are a distinct exception from this rule.

It is clear that the Durevings are the Orlanthi of the Downland Migration. The wedding of Durev and Orane basically is the Wedding of Orlanth and Ernalda, on the demigod level.

Heortling Mythology places the Downland Migration in the Discovery Age, aka Late Golden age, after the chaining of Umath, but well before the third and fatal contest. As far as linear sequence, or even sequence on a section of a cycle, can be asserted for Godtime.

Janerra Alone's dalliance with Orlanth is from the onset of the Flood Age. The On Jorri are one of the northernmost peoples in Saird exempted from being flooded. The On Jorri don't seem to be of Dureving descent. It isn't even clear whether they were storm worshippers, agriculturalists, and/or pastoralists. They may even have been an offshoot of the gazzam-herding river basin culture that we call Dara Happa, with inheritance being a pre-requisite for chiefhood. (The entire story is sort of reprised by Denesia, the ancestress of the Dara Happan Denesiod dynasty...)

Somehow, Vingkot's maternal people's traditions may have intruded into a much different Orlanthi culture.

But basically, the Durevings are the traditional and original Orlanthi (demigods and mortals). The Vingkotlings are a later distinction for those of them who accept the rule of Vingkot's offspring (are blessed with it, or are forced to bear it like the Kodigvari who seem to have included indigenes from Kethaela who possibly never migrated northward to get there). But other than Vingkot's direct offspring, I don't see much of a Vingkotling ethnicity. Over the generations, descent from Vingkot spread out in those tribes, but quite likely also outside of those tribes if Orlanthi exogamy was practiced.

The Helerings are a migratory group of blue-skinned folk that (if we can trust Malkioni mentions and the God Learner maps) migrated out of the lower sky into the southwestern corner of Glorantha, got into conflict with the Malkioni and Waertagi, and ended up making landfall in Maniria, preparing for battle against the Vingkotlings. That sounds like the Reclaimed Lands, after the Flood receded. Their genetic heritage can apparently be triggered by being strong in the Water rune. They are a different ethnicity at first, but apparently there are intermarriages with Durevings/Vingkotlings or indigenous earth folk (who also contribute big time to Dureving ancestry - the entire theme of the male hero going out and finding a wife in distant lands can be read as marriages to the land goddesses, repeated over and over again, like with Heort, Arim, or Sartar).

Are the Aramites and the Harandings Durevings? Quite likely, though not necessarily. The same goes for the original human Kitori (who I suspect to have been Esrolvuli who had fled to Akez Loradak following Norinel and Kimantor, though possibly an ethnic minority who had joined the Esrolvuli as the Darkness proceded).

 

I don't share your enthusiasm to make Derensev a second Hrelar Amali. The Hendriki de-centralized their holy places, almost to a migratory pattern that could be followed by pastoralists and hunters (and the Larnsti) through the seasons. And the God Learners would have noticed other major temples there.

 

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

But basically, the Durevings are the traditional and original Orlanthi (demigods and mortals). The Vingkotlings are a later distinction for those of them who accept the rule of Vingkot's offspring (are blessed with it, or are forced to bear it like the Kodigvari who seem to have included indigenes from Kethaela who possibly never migrated northward to get there). But other than Vingkot's direct offspring, I don't see much of a Vingkotling ethnicity. Over the generations, descent from Vingkot spread out in those tribes, but quite likely also outside of those tribes if Orlanthi exogamy was practiced.

....

Are the Aramites and the Harandings Durevings? Quite likely, though not necessarily. The same goes for the original human Kitori (who I suspect to have been Esrolvuli who had fled to Akez Loradak following Norinel and Kimantor, though possibly an ethnic minority who had joined the Esrolvuli as the Darkness proceded).

 

One note: Orane is clearly the source of the Oraneo, who are the core group of the Durevings, and were inhabitants of Nochet... so either way, the Kitori are likely Durevings in origin.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

One note: Orane is clearly the source of the Oraneo, who are the core group of the Durevings, and were inhabitants of Nochet... so either way, the Kitori are likely Durevings in origin.

There's a lot of connections there that I don't think are proven (or guaranteed to be canon as I don't think Heortling Myths is considered wholly canon).  Orane/Orana is considered the divine ancestress of the Oranaeo.  And they were one of the groups resident in Nochet.  I've generally accepted that Durev is name/title for the humans that formed the Oranaeo.  

Yes, Norinel led some folk from Nochet to the Shadow Plateau to escape chaos.  Are some of those the progenitors of the Kitori?  I haven't seen anything that would confirm that, or provide any further link to the Oranaeo/Durevings.

[jeffjerwin]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There's a lot of connections there that I don't think are proven (or guaranteed to be canon as I don't think Heortling Myths is considered wholly canon).  Orane/Orana is considered the divine ancestress of the Oranaeo.  And they were one of the groups resident in Nochet.  I've generally accepted that Durev is name/title for the humans that formed the Oranaeo.  

Yes, Norinel led some folk from Nochet to the Shadow Plateau to escape chaos.  Are some of those the progenitors of the Kitori?  I haven't seen anything that would confirm that, or provide any further link to the Oranaeo/Durevings.

It is possible, I'll grant, given the fact this is deep, distant history, and the Esrolian grandmothers are understood to have rewritten history in other contexts, that the connection between Norinel and Kimantor and the Kitori is fabricated to give the Kitori a matriline to an important Esrolian demigoddess and tribe. Given the importance of mothers to both Darkness and Earth cultures, this would create assumed ties of mythic kinship, which would be useful to the Esrolians (and perhaps also for the Kitori). But anything understood as true is as good as true for purposes of magic and ancestral worship.

[jajagappa]

16 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

It is possible, I'll grant, given the fact this is deep, distant history, and the Esrolian grandmothers are understood to have rewritten history in other contexts, that the connection between Norinel and Kimantor and the Kitori is fabricated to give the Kitori a matriline to an important Esrolian demigoddess and tribe.

Probably something I'd leave as a myth that might or might not be true, depending on the game.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Probably something I'd leave as a myth that might or might not be true, depending on the game.

Few modern Gloranthans have a clear idea about what happened an age ago, let alone two ages ago. What Arkat and his contemporaries did is mostly forgotten even by those who worship Arkat in the Modern Age. Harmast's efforts are best known from alliterative verse or poetic lists. Lokamayadon's methods are forgotten (much to the chagrin of the Lunars, assuming they remember that barbarian companion of Nysalor and Palangio at all).

Unlike the Godtime, historical events usually cannot be visited in heroquests, although timeless events when gods walk the earth might be an exception. If so, there don't seem to be widespread quests to get to say the battle of Night and Day, although the uz efforts to undo D'Wargon's damage may have led them there. Godtime events may be better known even though only experienced through individual context of the questers.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unlike the Godtime, historical events usually cannot be visited in heroquests

I was referencing the idea that the Kitori lineage derives from the Esrolians, which would have been Godtime.

[soltakss]

On 3/16/2018 at 10:19 PM, Joerg said:

Unlike the Godtime, historical events usually cannot be visited in heroquests

Except where they can.

Trolls visit the Cursing of Kyger Litor on a regular basis. The Nights of Horror happened within Time and had HeroQuestors from other periods interacting with the event.

although timeless events when gods walk the earth might be an exception. 

 

I think that when an event is powerful enough to make a mark on God Time, it can be visited on a HeroQuest, as it is now part of God Time.

Even a minor Hero can make a slight mark and his/her followers can HeroQuest to that point, as can enemies.

 

[jeffjerwin]

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Except where they can.

Trolls visit the Cursing of Kyger Litor on a regular basis. The Nights of Horror happened within Time and had HeroQuestors from other periods interacting with the event.

 

I think that when an event is powerful enough to make a mark on God Time, it can be visited on a HeroQuest, as it is now part of God Time.

Even a minor Hero can make a slight mark and his/her followers can HeroQuest to that point, as can enemies.

 

There is also the matter than when a hero within Time enters the God Time they actually are present. It isn't a hallucination: Harmast is there, eating at the board below Orlanth. A part of Harmast is now eternally a part of Orlanth's band. Thus any hero that entered the God-Time and made a mark - as soltakss mentions above - can now be sought there as well as within Time, if they are still extant there. Also, the dead go to the God-Time, in as much as the Underworld overlaps with both worlds and the highest and lowest fates of the deceased are clearly linked to the homes of deities and great spirits...

Kyger Litor and the Gods at Castle Blue (for example) are always of the "God-time" so when the compromise is broken in that moment that moment itself can be said to enter into the God-time... Otherwise the wounding of KL would have had no effect and the LG's victory would not have been complete. Of course this means that by following the path of the god one can find your way into Historic moments, if the God somehow was there - chiefly through the Compromise being breached. Or this is my notion of it anyway.

[g33k]

On 3/15/2018 at 5:29 PM, jajagappa said:

... as I don't think Heortling Myths is considered wholly canon...

Are you conflating "canon" (exists within the setting) with "true" (factual within the setting)?

Because plenty of both "falsehood" and "true from one POV but not another" exist canonically within the setting.

I had understood BoHM to be wholly "canonical" (mythologically-known to the Heortling peoples) but a nigh-untangleable knot of true-within-Glorantha, mythically-important-and-impactful,,  "it depends," and "yeah, that's what they WANT everyone to think," where the question of which-is-which is made of pure YGMV.

Edited March 24, 2018 by g33k

[jajagappa]

26 minutes ago, g33k said:

I had understood BoHM to be wholly "canonical" (mythologically-known to the Heortling peoples) but a nigh-untangleable knot of true-within-Glorantha, mythically-important-and-impactful,,  "it depends," and "yeah, that's what they WANT everyone to think," where the question of which-is-which is made of pure YGMV.

I do not believe it is all considered canon.  My understanding is that it was more an assemblage of many available myths, but that included stuff from Thunder Rebels/Storm Tribe (including many of the little subcult figures) which may or may not be valid.

Personally, I use much of it in my game.  But you can't necessarily rely on it to make generalized statements as definitive fact.

[Steve]

Re: BoHM. From http://www.glorantha.com/docs/canon/ :

Quote

Are The Book of Heortling Mythology and Esrolia:Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses considered canonical?

Yes. I didn’t include them in the list because:

1. Esrolia: The Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses is very incomplete. It is more complete for the God Time and the First Age, less complete for the Second Age, and not at all complete for the Third Age. As a result, elements in it could change.
2. The Book of Heortling Mythology is a collection of myths. It is not comprehensive – just all the stories we had at that time. Those stories will get contradicted because that is in the nature of myth.

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Steve

[blackyinkin]

On 23/12/2017 at 4:31 AM, jeffjerwin said:

 The Tarsh map in Sartar:KoH is clipped from the original by Wesley Quadros and thus is missing a fair bit. It's easy to find around the net however...

I have HotHP and thankfully I can read the map therein. Tracking down the Bray map of Heortland is a long term goal, but since the part where my campaign is set (the north) is on the Dragon Pass map and covered by multiple other sources as well, this isn't crucial.

 

[blackyinkin]

Hi guys,

if you’re looking for the Bray Map of Heortland, just say hi. I think I can get hind of the map. I may still have the original art files. I have got several of the original maps and copies of them in my studio.

We did Heortland, Imther, Pavis County, Tarsh, Dagori Inkarth, The Wastes, Esrolia, Mirins Cross and Pamaltela in total. Oh and of course the Lunar Empire.

I still have a few of these available. Ask me if you’re interested.

Simon Bray

 

 

 

[m0n0cular]

Hi Simon,

 

I haven't got the Mirin's Cross or Pamaltela maps - I'm definitely interested in them.

 

Graeme 

[jeffjerwin]

I've mapped the Gavrening Tula. This is a rough draft - I'm letting players invent and name steads and other geographical features. The spiritual geography is delineated by Gavren and Eneera, the cave woman.

Gavrening tula map.tiff

Edited September 13, 2018 by jeffjerwin
pic didn't upload

[Joerg]

A nice approach to mapping, and one I haven't used yet - probably because my artistic talent is more suited to abstract shapes like runes.

The landscape glyphs in the Atacama are visible to humans from the hills nearby, but to be able to perceive this, you need to look down from at least the Middle Air. Which might be one reason I haven't used this kind of landscape naming for a fantasy setting yet.

Straight lines and great circles are the kind of geometry I expect Bronze Age cultures to be able to understand and to produce in the landscape. Abstracting a two-dimensional bird's view map is quite a progressive achievement, but that kind of map-making is well established in RQ publications. Map-makers often have raptor familiars which do give them the literal bird's view.

Orlanthi have an alternative by visiting Orlanth's Palace in sky world, looking down from Orlanth's Ring.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

Orlanthi have an alternative by visiting Orlanth's Palace in sky world, looking down from Orlanth's Ring.

Also, Whitewall is just to the north. Flying devotees of Orlanth Thunderous may be more common than usual.

Plus, Derensev is the the north west... They, of all people, would have mapped the nearby tulas. Particularly since Scholar Wyrm may be teaching there.

Edited September 13, 2018 by jeffjerwin