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Aldryami vs uz


Manu

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Elves and trolls are known to be ennemies. They fight each other very often

but in a rq point of view, how can elves win battles against trolls? Trolls are very strong, good armour, stealth,... elves are weak. What makes the elves good enough to win against trolls?

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I think it is a case of each race being secure in their own strongholds where they can defend with all the resources they have at their disposal in a geography suited to them. The elves are not alone in their forests.

Raiding parties have to be well prepared to venture into one another’s territories, especially Aldryami venturing underground. For instance Trolls might ready specialist magic such as Tree Chopping or fire elementals, elves would need light magic for demoralising trollkin as well as to be able to see.

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Uz may be masters of the dark, but elves are owning their environment. Intruding into an elf forest is the equivalent of raiding a high security installation where every item may start hostilities or at least provide the defenders with intelligence about the intruders. Encased in lead or chitin, the shock troups of the uz might be able to avoid most the poisonous thorns whipping at them without any humanoid aldryami in darksense sight, but actively entangling vines or roots are a different proposition. Especially when in the field of fire for their ridiculously effective elf bows. This effectively strips the uz off their trollkin support, maybe leaving them with a bunch of redshirt cave trolls that manage to regenerate as fast as those attacks sap their bodies. (Possibly literally, as their skins may sprout quick-growing plant life feeding on their bodies.)

Humanoid aldryami as melee opponents are to normal elves as a fully magicked up Brithini Horali is to a normal Malkioni farmer - tanks with incredible support (including snipers out of the range of any troll magic). Such High King Elf combatants can go root to toe with ZZ berserks or Karrg's Sons, and shamanically they ought to be evenly matched most of the time, too.

Uz can whittle down the fringes of elf forests by denuding them with hosts of trollkin and cave trolls, but the aldryami have and will use quick growth magics to counter such endeavors.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, Manu said:

From the guide, there is more than 8 millions elves and less than 4 millions uz...

On the surface world yes, but I suspect many more in the Underworlds.

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5 hours ago, Manu said:

What makes the elves good enough to win against trolls?

Personally I believe overall they are an even match. Each has their good and bad qualities in a fight. They have been fighting each other for a very long time and neither has really won out over the other. The balance is described on page 100 of the Guide, along with Dwarves. The big Rubble, although a specialist example has a troll and elf population in a state of stalemate. Looking at the bigger picture in the Hero Wars we can see what each side is needing to employ in order to gain the upperhand (not necessarily over each other). The Elves' agenda is the New Seed and Reforestation (GtG p69.), they are going to rapidly fill the land with choking forest, hostile to all including trolls. The Troll's agenda include Boztakang's Empire (GtG p94) and the Great Flood they will cause by blocking Magasta's Pool and they eating the dead (including Elves).

 

Edited by David Scott

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5 hours ago, Jim said:

The elves are not alone in their forests.

This is the essence of it in my mind.  The trees, shrubs, and vines; the spirits; quick flying and scouting pixies; fungi and molds; and even the land itself (the nymphs and dryads), are part of the collective forest that hold back the hungry forces of the darkness.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Uz may be masters of the dark, but elves are owning their environment. Intruding into an elf forest is the equivalent of raiding a high security installation where every item may start hostilities or at least provide the defenders with intelligence about the intruders. Encased in lead or chitin, the shock troups of the uz might be able to avoid most the poisonous thorns whipping at them without any humanoid aldryami in darksense sight, but actively entangling vines or roots are a different proposition. Especially when in the field of fire for their ridiculously effective elf bows. This effectively strips the uz off their trollkin support, maybe leaving them with a bunch of redshirt cave trolls that manage to regenerate as fast as those attacks sap their bodies. (Possibly literally, as their skins may sprout quick-growing plant life feeding on their bodies.)

Humanoid aldryami as melee opponents are to normal elves as a fully magicked up Brithini Horali is to a normal Malkioni farmer - tanks with incredible support (including snipers out of the range of any troll magic). Such High King Elf combatants can go root to toe with ZZ berserks or Karrg's Sons, and shamanically they ought to be evenly matched most of the time, too.

Uz can whittle down the fringes of elf forests by denuding them with hosts of trollkin and cave trolls, but the aldryami have and will use quick growth magics to counter such endeavors.

I'd agree, but I think Elves need a lot more 'love' mechanically in terms of the *actual* advantages they have in their forests.  I think a lot of it is implied in lore, but hasn't been laid out in rules (I haven't read the MRQ Aldryami books, so maybe much more is already there.)

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4 minutes ago, styopa said:

I'd agree, but I think Elves need a lot more 'love' mechanically in terms of the *actual* advantages they have in their forests.  I think a lot of it is implied in lore, but hasn't been laid out in rules (I haven't read the MRQ Aldryami books, so maybe much more is already there.)

The MRQ Aldryami book was quite good from what I remember, though I'm not sure how much it said about their forest defences besides that elves inside their forest could use whatever runes their great tree had integrated as if they had integrated them themselves.

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6 hours ago, Manu said:

Elves and trolls are known to be ennemies. They fight each other very often

but in a rq point of view, how can elves win battles against trolls? Trolls are very strong, good armour, stealth,... elves are weak. What makes the elves good enough to win against trolls?

They are not enemies... but fight very often.
-Aldryami hates Uz because they are destroyers and death bringers BUT Uz loves Aldryami because they are tasty.
-Good armor : Not enough to stop an Arrow, Stealth : as long as their take a shower every day (their odor are not as bad as broo but ...) and lose some weight...

Uz are mostly hunters and predators, they don't want to exterminate Aldryami and will protect them if they are near extinction. Only Zorak Zorani exterminate their enemies but as they are a minority, This is one of the main reason why Aldryami could win. They don't fight with the same objectives, Uz are to capture or kill a few but elves are to kill them all.

Aldryami have multiples way to win, the simplest way to define you have to follow Sun Tzu Strategy :
-Morality : Aldryami want to live, Most Uz want just a good diner.
-Climatic : Attack in fire season and by day  (uz hate heat and light)
-Geographic : Fight them in forest or narrow places as UZ are massive
-Commander : Communications by elf sense, being assisted by the knowledge of a millennia old tree...
-Organisation : The Aldraymi fight as skirmishers. Unlike Uz, Aldryami don't hates themselves nor try to kill their own commander to gain power...

Speaking of what aldryami can use as troops:
C as Cavalery : Trolls have a lot of giants insects but Aldryami like Tarzan in the jungle don't need them... But as beats men are mostly friend to them, why not a Vronkal + Grizzli pair ?
I as Infanterie : Warrior of Wood (Aldryami war trees) in RQ2 are describe to have same carac as trolls, A nearly million of Bears in North Genertela and Some Minotaurs as reinforcement
A as Artillery : Apart from their excellent skills with bows, their have their mobile ballista : the Grotaron (Also known as Maidstone Archers)

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3 hours ago, styopa said:

I'd agree, but I think Elves need a lot more 'love' mechanically in terms of the *actual* advantages they have in their forests.  I think a lot of it is implied in lore, but hasn't been laid out in rules (I haven't read the MRQ Aldryami books, so maybe much more is already there.)

It is exactly what I meant. Uz are well described in the RQ rules (whatever the version). Aldryami have poor description. If I want to play a band of elves on a mission and they meet Uz, it will be a tough challenge (Rule wise). Uz with 1 natural armor, 2-4 armor plus a protection spell is nearly unkillable

 

But thanks for all the good ideas. Food for the brain

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1 hour ago, Manu said:

It is exactly what I meant. Uz are well described in the RQ rules (whatever the version). Aldryami have poor description. If I want to play a band of elves on a mission and they meet Uz, it will be a tough challenge (Rule wise). Uz with 1 natural armor, 2-4 armor plus a protection spell is nearly unkillable

Tough challenge or not really depends on the degree of preparation before the attack.
If you are an Aldryami runelord and want to whittle down those trolls living close to the forest before they grow too large in number, you prepare yourself, your tactics and your allies, and then you go get them! ;)

An Aldryami group attacking an underground troll base has to be extremely cautious. It would be much easier for them to use guerrilla warfare against the uz who come out to the surface to hunt, trade or whatever. Use earth spirits (gnomes) against the biggest ones, so they get trapped or even swallowed whole (can a troll attack the gnome while trapped in the pit? I'd say no, he's only hitting the ground). Pepper them with arrows and Arrow Trance, Speedarted arrows, and Multimissile. Be ready for their shades with Light magic. Close on them only if you have proper Shield and Chameleon and they are already hurt by your arrows or trapped by the gnomes, and under direct sunlight.

If you really need to go into their caves, be even more ready. Sacrifice for lots of Halamalao (Yelmalio) magic to be able to see in the dark, to blind them, to scare off their trollkin and kill their shades. Draw their trollkin horde somewhere where the ambushed elves can slaughter them easily. In my Glorantha, elves have really fast-growing seeds of thorny bushes they can throw and slow down the advance of their enemies. And while they advance, you shoot them out. carry torches, send Salamanders ahead (hard to get for an Aldryami, but very handy in caves).Taunt them, retreat, ambush them (rinse and repeat). When the Zorak Zorani appear, fire poisoned arrows at them, run and fight another day.

Edited by Runeblogger
some typos

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4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

The MRQ Aldryami book was quite good from what I remember, though I'm not sure how much it said about their forest defences besides that elves inside their forest could use whatever runes their great tree had integrated as if they had integrated them themselves.

Exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.  AFAIK nothing in RQ3, even Elder Secrets, really explained any Elven special abilities within "their" forests - in fact what identified something as "their" forest, etc wasn't even really described.   Things like "automatically friendly with all nymphs, sprites, etc." or perhaps Nick Effingham's suggested ELFSENSE (SP) 
Possessed by Aldryami and other plant species. Sentient plants often have this. It allows the character, by touch, to detect the emotions of a creature, sentient or otherwise. It also allows communication with the trees within an Aldryami Forest. If a message wishes to be sent an entire MR must be spent trying to commune with the plant life around, if the skill roll is successful then the message is implanted and spreads throughout the entire forest quickly and soon reaches its intended destination. The Great Trees of the Elf Forests are the epicentre of such information flows.

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There is a quote from RQ2 Big Rubble, I think that answers this exact question, when asked why the elves of the Garden have not been attacked and killed by the larger numbers of nearby trolls, the Wood Lord says something like "Simple, we each fire 10 arrows".

Aldryami are normally defensive in nature, defending the forests from troll attacks. In the forests, they can hide and shoot, they have magical plants to help them and have magic that helps do this. The tangled forests confuse Uz Darksense, throwing up echoes everywhere and just showing a tangled mess. Most trolls are, in fact, trollkin and trollkin get spooked very easily, also an Elf is better in hand to hand than a trollkin, in RQ terms they are about the same size and strength but are far more intelligent and dextrous. So, you turn Darl Trolls into pincushions, then scare or chase the trollkin away.

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38 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Aldryami are normally defensive in nature, defending the forests from troll attacks.

So let's throw some mechanics out there?  (Just using your anecdotes as, er, idea-seeds)

In the forests, they can hide...   so let's say that due to their intimate knowledge of their own forest, and their innate coloring that's going to match the specific foliage, within a generally matching forest area (ie brown elves in deciduous, green in coniferous, etc) elves have a +20% or higher bonus to hide and sneak.  In their OWN forest (regardless if they match 'type' because there's always some mixing), it's anywhere from half-again (at the edges) up to 2x hide/sneak in the depths of the forest.  In either case, hide is at full even when moving.  Couple this with the Elfsense ability mentioned above, and elves in their home forest would have total situational awareness day or night, which should be a HUGE advantage.

...and shoot, ...  forest cover can be anywhere from -5% to -50% on missile fire, and entirely prohibits fire at extreme ranges.  Neither of these penalties apply to elves in their home forest.

they have magical plants to help them and have magic that helps do this. ....  Of course the Aldrya cult has War Trees, but there should be something far more accessible generally.  Part of this is the Elfsense, but also maybe allow Aldrya initiates (ie every non-rootless elf) in their home forest to spend mp for a list of spell-like EFFECTS that could be plant-delivered in context.  ie they could use their mp to slow a target (ground vines tripping and grabbing), disrupt (stinging nettles and poisonous plants can even work their way through the toughest armor), blur (for the elf, plants moving, distracting, and camouflaging slightly), etc.  Certainly the elves would constantly harass and guerilla-war the trolls, trying to maneuver enemies into 'setpiece' killing zones where more substantial murderous defenses were set up with War Trees, not to mention bio-versions of every nasty booby-trap that you've seen in Rambo movies, from giant spiked spring-branches to punji-trapped pits (oozing anything from soporific to lethal poisons as desired).

 The tangled forests confuse Uz Darksense, ...  I'd say that (again depending on how far 'into' the forest one was) Darksense is impaired anywhere from -10% to halved.  Earthsense too, as the ground cover and humus layers permeated with life would throw up an almost impenetrable static.

 

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11 hours ago, Pentallion said:

This is what I have to go by:  we had an all elf campaign and we had an all troll campaign.  They all hit or neared rune level.  I think our elves would beat our trolls.

I'd love it if you could elaborate a bit on both. :) I've been toying with the idea of running an all-elf campaign for years.

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11 hours ago, Pentallion said:

This is what I have to go by:  we had an all elf campaign and we had an all troll campaign.  They all hit or neared rune level.  I think our elves would beat our trolls.

yeah, put them all in an arena or in a garden and make a round by round report on this forum !!

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This is perhaps not a direct answer, but relevent I hope.

As already mentioned Aldryami animate war trees which are as powerful as cave trolls

And don't Dryads have control over all creatures born in their glades?

 

In which case even without the rather wonderful flavour ideas of muddling darksense and secure plant-based communication above (and elfbows acting as MP batteries); I'll match my Allosaurus against any size of Troll in hand-to-hand combat

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On 12/28/2017 at 5:18 PM, styopa said:

I'd agree, but I think Elves need a lot more 'love' mechanically in terms of the *actual* advantages they have in their forests.  I think a lot of it is implied in lore, but hasn't been laid out in rules (I haven't read the MRQ Aldryami books, so maybe much more is already there.)

I recently ran a skirmish between a gang of Zorak Zoran worshiping dark trolls attacking a roughly equal number of elf archers in a woods. The players had been recruited by the elves to help them out. It turns out they were completely unnecessary - the elves pretty much wiped out the trolls before they even got close.

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