Aldryami vs uz

[Mankcam]

8 hours ago, styopa said:

Personally, I very much liked the visual representation of elves from Guild Wars 2 for aldryami in RQ: certainly vegetal, with more-or-less humaniform features (but not too much; nobody would ever mistake them for human from any angle)

What I also found tangentially interesting was own reluctance to use them...it seems odd to want to source pnp FRPG ideas from video-game material, somehow, despite video games' tenure being only slightly shorter than FRPGs themselves.  Certainly some ... cross-pollination in that direction can be viable?

lol

Digressing off the Aldryami vs Uz title, but yes I always thought that Guild Wars plant people The Sylvari were spot on for the more mobile Gloranthan Aldryami, and I have often used pictures of them to reference such, especially the more inhuman looking ones.

(PS: Sorry about the screen space, I was unable to resize these)

Edited January 8, 2018 by Mankcam

[soltakss]

For me, Elves are as much influenced by the Man Rune as the Plant Rune, as they are the combination of Man and Plant, so I am not overkeen on very woody/planty elves.

Runners, for me, would look like the images shown above, as they are based on the Plant Rune.

Dryads would also be the same, as they are Plant based without any Man Rune Influence, but I still have the sneaking suspicion that the naked dryad bursting from a tree is how I will always perceive dryads.

Pixes are just made from leftover magic and were made to make Aldrya laugh, so are not really planty at all.

Edited January 12, 2018 by soltakss

[davecake]

I think of the Man Rune as representing being a conscious biped, and to some extent the experience of sapient mortality. RQ2 actually says the Man rune represents 'the humanoid shape'. 

In other words, I don't think elves being associated with Man makes them any less Plant, it just means they are humanoid and have a consciousness that is somewhat like a humans. 

 

[Mankcam]

19 hours ago, davecake said:

I think of the Man Rune as representing being a conscious biped, and to some extent the experience of sapient mortality. RQ2 actually says the Man rune represents 'the humanoid shape'. In other words, I don't think elves being associated with Man makes them any less Plant, it just means they are humanoid and have a consciousness that is somewhat like a humans. 

I tend to agree with this, it makes the Aldryami very alien and differentiates them from most high fantasy Elf tropes. I think the term 'mobile sentient plants' was a good one to describe them.

[g33k]

On 1/12/2018 at 11:32 AM, soltakss said:

For me, Elves are as much influenced by the Man Rune as the Plant Rune, as they are the combination of Man and Plant, so I am not overkeen on very woody/planty elves.

Runners, for me, would look like the images shown above, as they are based on the Plant Rune.

Dryads would also be the same, as they are Plant based without any Man Rune Influence, but I still have the sneaking suspicion that the naked dryad bursting from a tree is how I will always perceive dryads.

Pixes are just made from leftover magic and were made to make Aldrya laugh, so are not really planty at all.

The ones pictured above are frankly more-human-than-plant looking,  YMMV, but...

I mean... fer criminy's sake, they use the human Hit-Location-Table !!!  They are built like a Man, not a Plant.  The foliage is just window-dressing.

 

[Joerg]

On 13.1.2018 at 5:10 AM, davecake said:

I think of the Man Rune as representing being a conscious biped, and to some extent the experience of sapient mortality. RQ2 actually says the Man rune represents 'the humanoid shape'. 

The "biped" appears to be sort of optional if you think about centaurs and mermen who only have the upper body of our conscious biped. Ouori and male zabdamar take the "able to use tools with their hands" rather down, too, but still are accorded man rune status. Even Morokanth are better at manipulating tools. And herd men have the manipulating organs but lack the consciousness to do something with them.

[davecake]

Form runes are not exclusive, and are not a taxonomy. You can combine more than one form rune in a single being. But the Man rune isn't the rune for upright mammals, or hairless monkeys. "This Rune represents the humanoid shape and is common among all humanoid races." says RuneQuest classic. "This Rune represents the humanoid shape, and is common among all intelligent humanoid races." says S:KoH. It is about the shape, the experience of being in a man-shaped mortal body. Being a mammal is not mentioned.

Elves are intelligent, and man shaped, and so clearly associated with the Man rune (though also Plant).

Some beast men might be associated with the Man rune somewhat, to differing degrees depending on intelligence and shape (obviously a manticore not at all, but a minotaur somewhat), but mostly are much more connected to Beast. I think mermen of all kinds are only somewhat hunanoid, and so only loosely connected to the Man rune. Adding the word 'intelligent' in SKoH takes care of the herd man case, and I think makes it clear why its associated with Grandfather Mortal not Grandfather Monkey. , 

Now, the majority of elves are members of the Aldrya cult and have a strong magical, conscious, connection to the Plant rune, though there is a tiny minority (Rootless elves) who do not. But the majority of humans don't have a strong magical connection to the Man rune, either. 

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

Form runes are not exclusive, and are not a taxonomy. You can combine more than one form rune in a single being. But the Man rune isn't the rune for upright mammals, or hairless monkeys. "This Rune represents the humanoid shape and is common among all humanoid races." says RuneQuest classic. "This Rune represents the humanoid shape, and is common among all intelligent humanoid races." says S:KoH.

So, which species (race is definitely the wrong term) have the man rune? Humans, the three major Elder Races, mermen, wind children, a majority of the beastmen, broo, scorpionmen, ogres. Dragonewts have their own stuff, newtlings are possibly a case in between (bachelors function as if they have it, adults don't necessarily, and the pollywogs don't). Likewise undefined are the timinits. Pamalt's earlier attempts at making people don't all have the man rune - the Hoolar doesn't, Jelmre and Pelmre (Slarges) are two more undefined cases.7

 

Losing the man rune is shown for e.g. midget slashers and herd men. Winning it for the Morokanth, whose bodyplan doesn't quite conform. The Mad Sultanate grey ones aren't quite man rune owners any more, either, and I make no promises for the adherents of the Kingdom of War by 1635 or so.

Eligibility for Daka Fal membership is more a consequence of possessing the rune rather than another criterion.

 

7 hours ago, davecake said:

It is about the shape, the experience of being in a man-shaped mortal body. Being a mammal is not mentioned.

Neither for Hsunchen beasts or Praxian animals (limited to land-dwelling herbivores, though). Prior to the Covenant contest, both Beast Rider two-legs and Praxian four-legs sort of conformed with the Man Rune.

 

7 hours ago, davecake said:

Some beast men might be associated with the Man rune somewhat, to differing degrees depending on intelligence and shape (obviously a manticore not at all, but a minotaur somewhat), but mostly are much more connected to Beast. I think mermen of all kinds are only somewhat hunanoid, and so only loosely connected to the Man rune.

I am sure the Malkioni are bound to object, after all they regard themselves as maternal kin to the mermen through Warera, the Triolini (niiad) mother of Malkion (in whichever of his appearances). And her son's appearance has stamped the term Wareran on roughly a third of all humans in the known world.

 

7 hours ago, davecake said:

Adding the word 'intelligent' in SKoH takes care of the herd man case, and I think makes it clear why its associated with Grandfather Mortal not Grandfather Monkey. , 

But the baboons of Prax act like they have the man rune, and apart from the fact that they never take human form, they might be another Hsunchen type.

 

7 hours ago, davecake said:

Now, the majority of elves are members of the Aldrya cult and have a strong magical, conscious, connection to the Plant rune, though there is a tiny minority (Rootless elves) who do not.

I am not sure that the rootless elves have lost their affinity to the plant rune - what they lost is their connection to the superego of the forest. Apart from that, they still are plants, ingest leaves and compost.

 

In a way, elf aldryami are trees grown to the pattern of the man rune, developing "meat" for muscles around their "skeleton" that is grown out of the nut that their mothers (whether female brown or green elves or dryads) give body birth to. I wonder whether their wooden bones are separated into individual pieces like the separate bones of our bodies, or whether they only have non-solid cellulose fibre rather than ligaments. The menu at the troll restaurant doesn't show any joints in their depiction of the elf torso, only "bone" branches clearly hacked through. Elf hands can be fairly similar to human hands, but their feet tend to be different.

 

7 hours ago, davecake said:

But the majority of humans don't have a strong magical connection to the Man rune, either. 

Like e.g. Stom Bull Berserks?

I think that both the Praxians and the standard Hsunchen have a strong tie to their man rune.

[Richard S.]

I think having the man rune just means you're descended from grandfather mortal. 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am not sure that the rootless elves have lost their affinity to the plant rune - what they lost is their connection to the superego of the forest.

If you consider the Rune pairings in RQG, where humans have an scale based on the Man and Beast runes, then likely the elves have a similar scale between the Man and the Plant runes.  The rootless elves are those who are so far to the Man rune (e.g. 90%+) that the Plant rune connection is minimal or lost (and would also no longer have a Loyalty to their forest).

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

If you consider the Rune pairings in RQG, where humans have an scale based on the Man and Beast runes, then likely the elves have a similar scale between the Man and the Plant runes.  The rootless elves are those who are so far to the Man rune (e.g. 90%+) that the Plant rune connection is minimal or lost (and would also no longer have a Loyalty to their forest).

An interesting interpretation of that rules construct. IMO the dichotomy between Man and Beast for humans could be as easily be replaced by Man and Spirit (another of those form runes), creating a different but as Gloranthan set of implications. Do the Uz have another Darkness rune down there? What do the Mostali get?

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

IMO the dichotomy between Man and Beast for humans could be as easily be replaced by Man and Spirit (another of those form runes), creating a different but as Gloranthan set of implications.

That would be a very different dichotomy.  Man and Beast suggests a scale reflecting affinity to civilization or to the wild.  Man vs. Spirit suggests a scale reflecting mundane/worldly concerns vs. otherworldly concerns - but that raises other challenges I think in whether you're attuned to the shamanic practices.

[olskool]

On 1/12/2018 at 11:10 PM, davecake said:

I think of the Man Rune as representing being a conscious biped, and to some extent the experience of sapient mortality. RQ2 actually says the Man rune represents 'the humanoid shape'. 

In other words, I don't think elves being associated with Man makes them any less Plant, it just means they are humanoid and have a consciousness that is somewhat like a humans. 

 

  When I first saw the Rune Tree with MAN at the top and BEAST at the bottom, I thought of a similar concept.  To me, that represented "Sentient Being from Beast."  The percentage of Rune affiliation would signify how far evolved the "Being" was.  Thus Herdmen could be 5% Man and 95% Beast (based on their fixed INT).  A Baboon might be 30%/70% and a Duck 25%/75%.   Therefore, I could envision Elves and Runners being "Intelligent Being from Plant,"  with the MAN Rune at the top of the Rune Tree and the Plant Rune at the bottom.  This could work for all the races except maybe the Mostali who COULD be from Earth but I think I would create a separate Dwarf Rune instead.  I would STILL move the Chaos Rune out of the Forms section and put it with the Magic, Mastery, and Infinity CONDITION Runes.  Chaos can taint ANYTHING... including magic, elements, powers, and forms.  Because of this, Chaos should be with the other CONDITION Runes (which can affect or align with anything too)!  In fact, I have already suggested in another post that a row of vertical boxes be added between the POWER Runes and the FORM Runes at the Top and Bottom of the Tree.  Any CONDITION Runes a character gains would be placed in those boxes (which I propose denote the "evolution" of the character even further).  There would be nothing in my mind to prevent the "adding" of FORM Runes in the boxes for CONDITIONS.  Some examples of FORMS being added to the CONDITION boxes I suggest would be the Spirit Rune for a Shaman, and the Dragon Rune for the Emperor's guard (who can shape change into dragons).  If RQG doesn't do this, I'll probably just HR it.    

[Yelm's Light]

13 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I think having the man rune just means you're descended from grandfather mortal. 

Hence the naming of the Aldryami Hero Grandson in my little Dragon Pass variant.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, olskool said:

  When I first saw the Rune Tree with MAN at the top and BEAST at the bottom, I thought of a similar concept.  To me, that represented "Sentient Being from Beast."  The percentage of Rune affiliation would signify how far evolved the "Being" was.  Thus Herdmen could be 5% Man and 95% Beast (based on their fixed INT).  A Baboon might be 30%/70% and a Duck 25%/75%.   Therefore, I could envision Elves and Runners being "Intelligent Being from Plant,"  with the MAN Rune at the top of the Rune Tree and the Plant Rune at the bottom.  This could work for all the races except maybe the Mostali who COULD be from Earth but I think I would create a separate Dwarf Rune instead.  I would STILL move the Chaos Rune out of the Forms section and put it with the Magic, Mastery, and Infinity CONDITION Runes.  Chaos can taint ANYTHING... including magic, elements, powers, and forms.  Because of this, Chaos should be with the other CONDITION Runes (which can affect or align with anything too)!  In fact, I have already suggested in another post that a row of vertical boxes be added between the POWER Runes and the FORM Runes at the Top and Bottom of the Tree.  Any CONDITION Runes a character gains would be placed in those boxes (which I propose denote the "evolution" of the character even further).  There would be nothing in my mind to prevent the "adding" of FORM Runes in the boxes for CONDITIONS.  Some examples of FORMS being added to the CONDITION boxes I suggest would be the Spirit Rune for a Shaman, and the Dragon Rune for the Emperor's guard (who can shape change into dragons).  If RQG doesn't do this, I'll probably just HR it.    

Note, we don't use the Spirit Rune for corporeal beings. Even though shamans work with the Spirit Rune (ie spirits), they aren't really defined Rune except when the discorporate. I toyed around with including the Spirit Rune on the tree, but it simply didn't work very well in play (and it became clear that it would end up creating problems for future products that I'd like to avoid).

For Aldryami, Man is opposed with Plant instead of Beast. A herdman has 100% Beast, no Man (despite having a hominid form).

Now I gotta say, I wouldn't use the Rune tree and Elemental wheel to describe every NPC (or even most). I usually just write down the two or three most significant Runes. Just like I don't write down every skill a NPC might possess at a base or low rating.

[davecake]

14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Note, we don't use the Spirit Rune for corporeal beings.

I assume this has an implicit RuneQuest Glorantha context, because clearly this isn't true at all for HeroQuest. 

(and personally a wish that HeroQuest Glorantha and RuneQuest Glorantha had more conceptual consistency, I worry the Glorantha they describe is going to diverge)

14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Even though shamans work with the Spirit Rune (ie spirits), they aren't really defined Rune except when the discorporate. I toyed around with including the Spirit Rune on the tree, but it simply didn't work very well in play (and it became clear that it would end up creating problems for future products that I'd like to avoid).

For Aldryami, Man is opposed with Plant instead of Beast. A herdman has 100% Beast, no Man (despite having a hominid form).

Now I gotta say, I wouldn't use the Rune tree and Elemental wheel to describe every NPC (or even most). I usually just write down the two or three most significant Runes. Just like I don't write down every skill a NPC might possess at a base or low rating.

I personally don't like the idea that Plant and Man are opposed for elves. It kind of makes the Aldrya cult opposed to Man, which has a lot of weird implications for elven society. 

But then, I don't like the idea that Beast and Man are opposed either, it doesn't mentally work for me with eg Uralda etc, cults that are about the union of Man and Beast in a social context. 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

I assume this has an implicit RuneQuest Glorantha context, because clearly this isn't true at all for HeroQuest. 

(and personally a wish that HeroQuest Glorantha and RuneQuest Glorantha had more conceptual consistency, I worry the Glorantha they describe is going to diverge)

I personally don't like the idea that Plant and Man are opposed for elves. It kind of makes the Aldrya cult opposed to Man, which has a lot of weird implications for elven society. 

But then, I don't like the idea that Beast and Man are opposed either, it doesn't mentally work for me with eg Uralda etc, cults that are about the union of Man and Beast in a social context. 

HeroQuest has fundamentally different mechanics from RuneQuest. And yes the Aldrya cult encourages its members to be strongly in tune with Plant, not Man (especially since elf player characters start with the Plant Rune at 75%). More Man-oriented elves tend to drift away from Aldrya towards Yelmalio, Babeester Gor, Ernalda, etc. without ever leaving Aldrya entirely. Normal elves in full embrace of the Song of Aldrya tend to be pretty difficult player characters in anything other than an all-elf party, as their kinship with and understanding of Man tends to be pretty minimal.

[davecake]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, which species (race is definitely the wrong term) have the man rune? Humans, the three major Elder Races, mermen, wind children, a majority of the beastmen, broo, scorpionmen, ogres. Dragonewts have their own stuff, newtlings are possibly a case in between (bachelors function as if they have it, adults don't necessarily, and the pollywogs don't). Likewise undefined are the timinits. Pamalt's earlier attempts at making people don't all have the man rune - the Hoolar doesn't, Jelmre and Pelmre (Slarges) are two more undefined cases.7

I think many of these cases are somewhat speculative or limited, and if you make your own big and somewhat speculative list of what has the Man rune, then reason about the Man rune from that list, you run the risk of a circular argument. Are you sure all of those races have the Man rune? Why? Do you have a specific source, or just feel that they do? 

(FWIW, I think Ogres absolutely have the Man rune in the same way that normal humans do, maybe a little more, but the Chaos Rune as well). 

[davecake]

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

HeroQuest has fundamentally different mechanics from RuneQuest. 

Of course - just I find there is a frustrating avoidance of conceptual consistency, so phrases like 'has the X rune', or uses the X rune, the two runes are opposed, even the meanings of the Runes themselves will become terminology that has up to four or more somewhat inconsistent meanings. There are some similar issues with other magical terminology. And then we might start to slip into situations where some explicit statements about Gloranthan reality are no longer consistent between game systems. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

HeroQuest has fundamentally different mechanics from RuneQuest. And yes the Aldrya cult encourages its members to be strongly in tune with Plant, not Man (especially since elf player characters start with the Plant Rune at 75%). More Man-oriented elves tend to drift away from Aldrya towards Yelmalio, Babeester Gor, Ernalda, etc. without ever leaving Aldrya entirely. Normal elves in full embrace of the Song of Aldrya tend to be pretty difficult player characters in anything other than an all-elf party, as their kinship with and understanding of Man tends to be pretty minimal.

Thats helpful. 

So presumably their appearance will reflect their relationship with the plant and man runes? So those Aldryami in tune with Aldrya will appear to be more plant ( perhaps similar to the Brian Froud illustration concept i posted), and Yelmalio, Babeester Gor, Ernalda worshippers appearing more humanoid? 

look forward to seeing examples of the various forms of Aldryami in the new RuneQuest. The more accessible Aldryami could make interesting player characters. Are there examples of how to play a Yelmalio, Babeester Gor, or Ernalda Aldryami? 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Thats helpful. 

So presumably their appearance will reflect their relationship with the plant and man runes? So those Aldryami in tune with Aldrya will appear to be more plant ( perhaps similar to the Brian Froud illustration concept i posted), and Yelmalio, Babeester Gor, Ernalda worshippers appearing more humanoid? 

look forward to seeing examples of the various forms of Aldryami in the new RuneQuest. The more accessible Aldryami could make interesting player characters. Are there examples of how to play a Yelmalio, Babeester Gor, or Ernalda Aldryami? 

As a general rule, yes. Or least behave more plant. Although naturally exceptions exist.

[davecake]

There is an important, but subtle, difference between magical and physical connection to a Rune. This is most obvious with the Man rune - humans are strongly connected to the Man rune physically, but only a small minority have a strong magical connection to it. Or perhaps develop that magical connection would be a better terminology. The magical connection is what we generally track in games stats.

A magical connection can manifest as a physical change, but more often only the mental/spiritual changes are far more pronounced. 

I think this applies to elves. They always have a physical connection to the Plant rune - they are plants. But a stronger magical connection to the Plant rune doesn't necessarily manifest physically. Rather, their Plant nature manifests as listening more and more to the Song of Aldrya, communicating plant wise via slow, pre-linguistic, subtle changes via elf-sense. I'm with Jeff in that I think they behave more plant, rather than necessarily physically become more plant. 

Elves that are not strongly connected to the Plant rune are still plants, and their runic connections manifest in plant ways. An elf with a strong connections to Fire/Light will want to photosynthesize. An elf with a strong Water rune may want to stand in water. An elf with the Harmony rune may care as much, or more, about harmony with other plants than other 'people'. 

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

An elf with the Harmony rune may care as much, or more, about harmony with other plants than other 'people'. 

Is there an Elven god of flower arranging?

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Is there an Elven god of flower arranging?

Babeester Gor is widely known for arranging severed sexual appendages, and since that is what flowers are to a plant, I would say she fits the bill.

[jeffjerwin]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Babeester Gor is widely known for arranging severed sexual appendages, and since that is what flowers are to a plant, I would say she fits the bill.

On a more serious note, do Aldryami have the problems with sexual/patriarchal violence that define her mission among humans? It seems like she would operate entirely differently. Moral "Wrongness" from an Earth perspective within the forest ecosystem would - I think - be more likely to be disease, chaos, invasive species (including humans and trolls), or other disruptions. Hunting down dryad molesters alone seems awfully limited.