Resurrecting RuneQuest (Black Gate)

[David Scott]

46 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

And to your 'devolution' point, what did species devolve from, according to your theory?  What was the 'super race' of men, or bison, or merfolk?

It's covered in the Golden Age section of the Guide starting on page 116. I'd suggest you reread the whole Mythos and History chapter. It covers the creation of Glorantha. If you've questions or comments - head over to the Group Read of the Guide, week 6:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6551-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-6-mythos-history/

or for deeper discussion:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6548-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-6-deep-discussion/

 If you don't own a copy of the Guide - you can get the PDF here - https://www.chaosium.com/the-guide-to-glorantha-pdf/.

54 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

It's ludicrous to spin myths for every possible thing that could happen on the world.

Ludicrous in your opinion - fair enough. But only for things that have happened and do happen, not could happen.

36 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

But things just happen to work out mostly the same as in the RW.

Great isn't - having to create a mythology that explains why stuff happens. What a great escape from our world.

38 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Apotheosis, anyone (Sedenya being the most powerful example)?

Not with you on that one - it comes to a bad end (as did Nysalor)

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Yelm's Light said:

But things just happen to work out mostly the same as in the RW.

It's actually one of the more-fun (IMHO) if arduous and challenging chores to invent an alternate-history that ends up with Right Now looking pretty much the way it does in the Real World.

Like if you want a "Modern Urban Fantasy" world, and invent a new species "Homo aelfari" (elves) or "Homo sapiens aelfari" (elves as a subspecies of human) and then need an alt-history in which Elves are a thing -- how do you shoehorn them in?  Where is their homeland, where they stayed genetically-intact?  How did the presence of Elves -- ELVES, fer gawdsake!!! -- not change history?  Obviously they MUST have... yet we still have the major geopolitical and racial and religious and etc. groups in our modern-world setting.  Were the Elves persecuted by Hitler in WWII?  Did they side with Hitler?  Were they neutral?  Are the Elves... Swiss???!?  (ya gotta admit... it would explain some things...)

Given how much Glorantha actually diverges from the RW, I'm OK with the "it's all mytho-magical" argument.  In fact, I find it the only solution that fits.

Let's go back to my "Modern Urban Fantasy" example above, & Homo aelfari (or H. sapiens aelfari).  If our only "Fantasy" bit is the pointy-ear people, it' ain't very fantastical...  we pretty much need magic, hmm?  So let's go back and ask the same question again:  if "magic" works -- if it's even moderately predictable and reliable and repeatable -- how do you envision an alt-history that happened even vaguely akin to our own history?  All the way back to the dawn of recorded history, everything would have been different, and it would have diverged more and more and more across the years and centuries and millennia (I fully enjoy Hamilton's "Anita Blake" world, for example, but I have to work HARD to suspend my disbelief at how prosaic and normal Blake's USA is (and evidently the rest of the world, for that matter), given the open supernatural presence in the setting!) .   In fact, back into pre-history, it would have been different -- if the paleolithic hunters had had shamans with working magic, THAT WORLD would have been a very-different place... and our "dawn of history" would have been entirely other than what it was.  And if we go further back, and further still... in fact, if we look "back in time" via telescopy and see what was happening billions of years ago, billions of light-years away ...  we would necessarily have to be seeing something entirely-different than what we do see via our telescopes today.

In postulating a mytho-magical world like Glorantha -- where the fundamental underlying reality is based on Runes, not on quarks and leptons and bosons -- then the blanket assertion that "science doesn't work" isn't just a cheap excuse... it is an inevitable consequence.  "No bosons" means no gravity, or light, or even atoms.  Maybe the "scientific method" is still valid (to at least some extent); the heights of power achieved by the God Learners certainly suggests as much!  But the facts of science as we know them in the RW (and "practical science" as seen in engineering and many of our "Scientific Laws") cannot possibly exist in a Runic rather than Subatomic-Particle world.

Empirically speaking, the best observations suggest that the world is in fact NOT billions of light years in diameter; it is a lozenge of Earth, afloat in the waters, with the Sky Dome above and the Underworld below, the entirety being embedded within the creative/destructive everything/nothing that is primal Chaos.

But as I said before:  YGMV.

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by g33k

[Sean_RDP]

I suppose I wonder why there is even a debate to be had. The scientific laws of Glorantha include magic and beings called gods and this entropic force known as Chaos. It is not a thin veneer of strong belief that covers up the actual fact of a planetary accretion and axial tilts. Spirits are bound for the purposes of using their power. Trolls are not gigantopithecus  misidentified; they are their own kinds of intelligent life. So the devolution or sub-optimal mutation that is the trollkin has its roots in the physical properties of the Glorantha universe.  I m sure there may be those who seek deeper "rational" answers, but they will do so only in the context of the physical laws of the universe that Glorantha inhabits. Their answers will be defined by the actual physical laws of that universe, not our universe. And there is some theorizing on our part that other universes might have a different fundamental set of physical laws, so that seems like a rational prospect.   

As for mythology, I have always seen it merely as a lens through which we (the game designers and then us players) are able to grasp this esoteric effect that seems to have the power to alter events and or linear time and or our perceptions of both.

TLDR version: I never question the science of Glorantha as I already assumed I knew, to whatever extent it has been explained to me through rules and play, what the science of Glorantha is. And if at some point, Glorantha and its universe move to a place more resembling our physical laws than its own, then that will just be another property of the world itself and won't undermine or disenfranchise the time when it was a magical place. I have never believed Glorantha and Earth to even share the same universe, so why would their science be the same? /shrug

[goldenwheeldancer]

If we try to "science" Glorantha we'll end up with goddam midichlorians.

[Yelm's Light]

22 minutes ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

If we try to "science" Glorantha we'll end up with goddam midichlorians.

Let's 'myth' it instead.

[g33k]

27 minutes ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

If we try to "science" Glorantha we'll end up with goddam midichlorians.

Maybe Glorantha needs some goddam midichlorians... There's MONEY in midichlorians!

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-20146942

 

[Richard S.]

35 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Let's 'myth' it instead.

We already did 

In perfect honesty, even if the end results are the same, it has been said multiple times by the creators and owners of the world that the reasons for this are not the same as in our world, at least from the 100% canonical standpoint. Yes, things fall, die, decompose, and all that other stuff, but the reasons as to why are rooted in the gods' deeds during the godtime, not to laws of physics or biology.

And really, if this form needs to debate this topic again, can you at least make a separate topic for it and clearly lay it your entire argument there cuz I'm a little confused as to your point now.

[Yelm's Light]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

We already did 

In perfect honesty, even if the end results are the same, it has been said multiple times by the creators and owners of the world that the reasons for this are not the same as in our world, at least from the 100% canonical standpoint. Yes, things fall, die, decompose, and all that other stuff, but the reasons as to why are rooted in the gods' deeds during the godtime, not to laws of physics or biology.

And really, if this form needs to debate this topic again, can you at least make a separate topic for it and clearly lay it your entire argument there cuz I'm a little confused as to your point now.

YOU already did.  I didn't.

The second I bought the game, it became MY world, not the 'owners'.'  You remember YGMV, don't you?  I'm fine with canon, as long as it makes sense.  This makes none whatsoever.

And you mean the rationalizations, not reasons.  So basically you've all invented a new pseudoscience, called 'mythics.'  Witness that silly and voluminous thread about theorizing why rivers flow to the sea.

There's no point to a new thread.  I've said it numerous times already.  But at least maybe some lurker might get it.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[Richard S.]

14 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

YOU already did.  I didn't.

The second I bought the game, it became MY world, not the 'owners'.'  You remember YGMV, don't you?  I'm fine with canon, as long as it makes sense.  This makes none whatsoever.

And you mean the rationalizations, not reasons.  So basically you've all invented a new pseudoscience, called 'mythics.'  Witness that silly and voluminous thread about theorizing why rivers flow to the sea.

There's no point to a new thread.  I've said it numerous times already.  But at least maybe some lurker might get it.

Like I said. From the perspective of the CANON it doesn't follow your ideas, which doesn't say crap about your Glorantha, but if you're saying that this only applies to your interpretation then please stop bringing it up in discussions about a Glorantha that doesn't follow that model, AKA the one presented in the guide. We're talking here about the designers' Glorantha, not yours. Your deviations are fine as long as you stop trying to force them on the rest of us. I'm fine if the mods ban me or something for continuing the argument, I just don't see your point in continuing it too.

Now can we please all shut up about this?

[Mankcam]

Next we'll be back to Orlanthi Scots 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

 ... I'm fine with canon, as long as it makes sense.  This makes none whatsoever.

And you mean the rationalizations, not reasons.  So basically you've all invented a new pseudoscience, called 'mythics.'  Witness that silly and voluminous thread about theorizing why rivers flow to the sea.

To be perfectly clear, however -- Glorantha has been mythical/magical and explicitly a-scientific from the very beginning, when Greg Stafford was fumbling about with his first conceptions of a world wherein anthropology and animism were his guiding principles and Cambellian & similar myth-cycles were definitional of reality.  "We all" are working within the defined reality as best we can.

The Gloranthan cosmology & pseudoscience make (at least) as much sense most other RPGs do; and I maintain that they actually make MORE sense than most, because they don't slap a huge patch of Hulk-Green Handwavium over the magic/physics seam while desperately tap-dancing the "you don't see anything" performance.  Physics explicitly denies "magic" (the "super"natural explicitly violates "natural law" aka physics), so when you posit magic from the Very Beginning you posit a world without physics, a world where physics is NEVER the right explanation because the "laws of physics" don't exist.

We've seen some hints that Greg considers the Future of Glorantha to actually look even more like our "Real World".  I presume this would be via some "belief defines reality" collective will of the human consciousness, obscuring the "reality" of the Runes behind "subatomic particles" or even re-writing Reality itself via Heroquests/etc to make Runes be no-longer-true and creating/emplacing "Physics" as the underlying reality.

 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

Next we'll be back to Orlanthi Scots 

They're IRISH !!!

O'lanthi.

[Yelm's Light]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

To be perfectly clear, however -- Glorantha has been mythical/magical and explicitly a-scientific from the very beginning, when Greg Stafford was fumbling about with his first conceptions of a world wherein anthropology and animism were his guiding principles and Cambellian & similar myth-cycles were definitional of reality.  "We all" are working within the defined reality as best we can.

The Gloranthan cosmology & pseudoscience make (at least) as much sense most other RPGs do; and I maintain that they actually make MORE sense than most, because they don't slap a huge patch of Hulk-Green Handwavium over the magic/physics seam while desperately tap-dancing the "you don't see anything" performance.  Physics explicitly denies "magic" (the "super"natural explicitly violates "natural law" aka physics), so when you posit magic from the Very Beginning you posit a world without physics, a world where physics is NEVER the right explanation because the "laws of physics" don't exist.

We've seen some hints that Greg considers the Future of Glorantha to actually look even more like our "Real World".  I presume this would be via some "belief defines reality" collective will of the human consciousness, obscuring the "reality" of the Runes behind "subatomic particles" or even re-writing Reality itself via Heroquests/etc to make Runes be no-longer-true and creating/emplacing "Physics" as the underlying reality.

That's funny.  I'm somewhat of an expert on RQ2, and never once in any of the many supplements, mags, or the rules themselves I've owned did I see a single mention of such.  The only old-time things I've never owned are Borderlands and the WF's, although I do have Footprints.  So pretty clearly not explicit.

There must be a lot of spirits around to keep every being and other object that isn't connected to the earth from floating away like Lastday.  Tell me about handwaving.  Positing magic says nothing about physics, other than that magic may be able to violate physical laws through application.  Claiming no science is an assertion only.

It'd be interesting if he himself would comment on some of this stuff...does he ever post here?

[Steve]

57 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

There must be a lot of spirits around to keep every being and other object that isn't connected to the earth from floating away like Lastday.  Tell me about handwaving.  Positing magic says nothing about physics, other than that magic may be able to violate physical laws through application.  Claiming no science is an assertion only.

Oh dear.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la", while others provide arguments that applying scientific principles from our own world to Glorantha isn't a productive approach, isn't really a good way forward. As others have said, it's fine if you want to do that in your own Glorantha, absolutely, but you seem to want to argue that this Earth-science approach is somehow the "correct" way to go.

For a discussion on "gravity" in Glorantha, see the thread below (which you should recall, since you participated in it). You appear to be being deliberately obtuse - no-one has said that "physical" effects are always controlled by a multitude of individual spirits. It's just that these "physical" effects always have a mythical explanation that goes back to the God Time.

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Steve

[Joerg]

19 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

And to your 'devolution' point, what did species devolve from, according to your theory?  What was the 'super race' of men, or bison, or merfolk?

Super-race of men: Erasanchula (according to Zzabur, who happens to be one).

Super-race of bison: Mother Mammal, or Eiritha's Daughter(s).

Super-race of merfolk: the Niiad Triolini, themselves descended from and lesser versions of Mirintha and Phargon.

 

19 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

I don't care if it's page 1 of RQ.  It's ludicrous to spin myths for every possible thing that could happen on the world.  I suppose everything that is ever learned by a Gloranthan creature is because Lhankor Mhy or some other local god of knowledge smiled down on them.  Give me a break.

The rules of our science often fail to apply in Glorantha. Forget subatomic particles, but keep the wave/particle stuff for (to our physics) gross mis-applications. Things like parallax work fine - in the Middle World, but not for objects outside of it observed from the Middle Earth. Distances change when you approach the Outer World.

Darkness is tangible, not the mere absence of Light. (The Lunar glow might be an absence of an absence of Light, though.)

How things work can be figured out from observations through alchemy or sorcery. Deductive reason is a form of sorcery, and knowledge thus worked up has magical applications.

Asking a god of knowledge is another way, but while the deity might be partial to that knowledge, it is in no way guranteed that the answer will be understood.

Meditating on things may provide insights. As might communicating with an object's anima.

[styopa]

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

As long as physical EFFECTS are consistent - ie things fall down, convection causes movement up, light casts shadows, etc (barring magical intervention - which is almost tautologically the definition of what IS magic, btw) - the rest is just handwaving that can freely vary from campaign to campaign with ZERO impact operationally.

EITHER:

a.) physics is a thing, and it is merely people in an inherently magical world using magical/mythical explanations to describe the mechanisms by which physical reality is perceived, or

b.)  the world of Glorantha is truly inherently magical, uses magical mechanisms, and the physical reality perceived is merely analogous in many ways to our world.

In the former, for example, things are made up of atoms, molecules, etc. with their relationships the results of what we call physics, chemistry, etc. 

In the latter, things are ACTUALLY made up of (I'd guess?) something like an Aristotlean 5 elements (Air, earth, fire, water, quintessence (spirit in Glorantha?)) with their interactions and relationships the result of mythic/magical relationships whose RESULTS are merely similar to our physical world.

I think if you asked any Gloranthan, they'd almost certainly tell you the latter.  Is that the reality?  Does it ultimately matter?

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by styopa

[styopa]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The rules of our science often fail to apply in Glorantha. Forget subatomic particles, but keep the wave/particle stuff for (to our physics) gross mis-applications. Things like parallax work fine - in the Middle World, but not for objects outside of it observed from the Middle Earth. Distances change when you approach the Outer World.

For example, the God Time  being "before time" and thus essentially simultaneous is a direct violation of Newton's 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and causality....except even in our universe there's open debate amongst theoretical physicists (stated simply) if time is actually freely reversible, and entropy only an effect of our limited comprehension of the universe.

Did the God Time ACTUALLY happen, or is that merely the 'revealed truth' handed to investigators by entities incomprehensibly more powerful, for whatever reasons they had?

(shrug)

[Yelm's Light]

4 hours ago, Steve said:

Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la", while others provide arguments that applying scientific principles from our own world to Glorantha isn't a productive approach, isn't really a good way forward. As others have said, it's fine if you want to do that in your own Glorantha, absolutely, but you seem to want to argue that this Earth-science approach is somehow the "correct" way to go.

For a discussion on "gravity" in Glorantha, see the thread below (which you should recall, since you participated in it). You appear to be being deliberately obtuse - no-one has said that "physical" effects are always controlled by a multitude of individual spirits. It's just that these "physical" effects always have a mythical explanation that goes back to the God Time.

We've been over this ground before.  Others have provided arguments that NO scientific principles apply, period.  Yet somehow most basic things just happen to work exactly as in the real world.  Do you really not see the contradiction there?  And where did I say that  'all effects are due to spirits?'  I gave a single example.

 

[Jusmak]

Hmmm, not sure what is really debated here, but myths, folklore and a concept of science seen something more than another attempt to explain world is interesting subject enough. I like folklore as well as scientifical rational. As scientists are studied RW does not actually exists as we perceive it, but is a a projection of our very limited senses. Science in my liking makes very honest attempt to solve out how universe works, as have religions attempted to tell same tale by unchanging myths. Scientifical truth are told to last approx. 7 years until it's old, and new discoveries about the matter are found, new explanations get more common ground.

And still mythical explanations survive in RW. For example traditional chinese medicine is absolute, pure crap in point of view western medical science. However in some situations it does actually work better, even it's philosophical explanation is strange or crap for educated western doctor. For example anaesthesia made for a surgery made only by few acupuncture needless. Is that process of magic, when there is no scientific explanations? Science has it's limits when there cannot be found means to measure something, like emotions, thoughts.

How about placebo effect? Science cannot explain it's mechanical functions, but only seeing it's results. Is it actually work of magic, if spirit healer makes really good use of it with results unachievable to modern medicine? What is magic actually? Shamans do work still these days and are even part of healthcare in Tuva Republic.

When there is so much unexplained in RW, and scientifical truth actually number of theories agreed by most scientists, which is open to debate and change. In similar way fantasy world's functioning is good to be based on common agreement, which is open to debate and change, if it's wanted to be living. People can play their own myths, which are theirs alone.

[jajagappa]

19 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Others have provided arguments that NO scientific principles apply, period.  Yet somehow most basic things just happen to work exactly as in the real world.  Do you really not see the contradiction there?

No.  It is a FANTASY GAME.  It is not an attempt at world-building from underlying scientific principles.  Hasn't been since the beginning.  As it says way back in RQ1 "Glorantha was created by its deities from the Primal Void of Chaos."  You will not find the word 'science' in that book, but will find the word 'myth'.  Despite lots of debate on how things might work going way back to the dawn of internet communication among many of us, there's still no need to work out any level of scientific principles.  There are Runes, there are Gods, bronze comes from God's bones, magic exists and magical effects can be created.  If you want or need to work out 'scientific' principles for your version of the game, go right ahead, but there's no inherent need to do so.  As was stated in RQ, "However it is played, the primary purpose is to have fun."  I don't need to figure out Gloranthan gravity to do so, or to tell a story in it.  

[Yelm's Light]

2 hours ago, Jusmak said:

Hmmm, not sure what is really debated here, but myths, folklore and a concept of science seen something more than another attempt to explain world is interesting subject enough. I like folklore as well as scientifical rational. As scientists are studied RW does not actually exists as we perceive it, but is a a projection of our very limited senses.

Yet those limited senses have allowed us to create a huge variety of technologies through application.

2 hours ago, Jusmak said:

Hmmm, not sure what is really debated here, but myths, folklore and a concept of science seen something more than another attempt to explain world is interesting subject enough. I like folklore as well as scientifical rational. As scientists are studied RW does not actually exists as we perceive it, but is a a projection of our very limited senses. Science in my liking makes very honest attempt to solve out how universe works, as have religions attempted to tell same tale by unchanging myths. Scientifical truth are told to last approx. 7 years until it's old, and new discoveries about the matter are found, new explanations get more common ground.

That's a rather sweeping generalization.  The 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics are over 200 years old.  Some Newtonian physics is still correct, 350 years after its introduction (actually, it's all correct, but only for a specific frame of reference).  Most of relativistic physics is still true roughly a century after Einstein posited it.  Chemistry and biology generally have changed hardly at all in the last 100 years other than in the discovery of new applications and methods.

2 hours ago, Jusmak said:

And still mythical explanations survive in RW. For example traditional chinese medicine is absolute, pure crap in point of view western medical science. However in some situations it does actually work better, even it's philosophical explanation is strange or crap for educated western doctor. For example anaesthesia made for a surgery made only by few acupuncture needless. Is that process of magic, when there is no scientific explanations? Science has it's limits when there cannot be found means to measure something, like emotions, thoughts.

The fact that there are no scientific explanations for it only shows that it hasn't been studied enough, and brain scanning has proven very useful in studying emotions and to a lesser degree thoughts.

2 hours ago, Jusmak said:

How about placebo effect? Science cannot explain it's mechanical functions, but only seeing it's results. Is it actually work of magic, if spirit healer makes really good use of it with results unachievable to modern medicine? What is magic actually? Shamans do work still these days and are even part of healthcare in Tuva Republic.

Certainly the placebo effect can be explained.  The power of belief has long been known as an important factor in healing, and been proven in scientific experiments.  However, that belief is often dependent on the individual's faith, which is generally stronger overall in those cultures than in, say, the American culture.  Santeria is in wide use and acceptance through much of South and Central America.  That doesn't make it of a great deal of use in the USA.

2 hours ago, Jusmak said:

When there is so much unexplained in RW, and scientifical truth actually number of theories agreed by most scientists, which is open to debate and change. In similar way fantasy world's functioning is good to be based on common agreement, which is open to debate and change, if it's wanted to be living. People can play their own myths, which are theirs alone.

Of course science is open to change.  That does nothing to reduce its value.  But it's interesting that literally no one on this board has ever agreed with me on the subject, at least not anyone who's actually posted here.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[Yelm's Light]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

No.  It is a FANTASY GAME.  It is not an attempt at world-building from underlying scientific principles.  Hasn't been since the beginning.  As it says way back in RQ1 "Glorantha was created by its deities from the Primal Void of Chaos."  You will not find the word 'science' in that book, but will find the word 'myth'.  Despite lots of debate on how things might work going way back to the dawn of internet communication among many of us, there's still no need to work out any level of scientific principles.  There are Runes, there are Gods, bronze comes from God's bones, magic exists and magical effects can be created.  If you want or need to work out 'scientific' principles for your version of the game, go right ahead, but there's no inherent need to do so.  As was stated in RQ, "However it is played, the primary purpose is to have fun."  I don't need to figure out Gloranthan gravity to do so, or to tell a story in it.  

According to you, it's an attempt at world-building from underlying mythic principles which quite literally denies all science.  I'm still waiting to see any canonical reference that explicitly states that there is no such thing as science in Glorantha, not some conclusion that you've drawn based on some highly questionable premises.  I won't find the word 'supercalifragilisticexpialidocious' in RQ either.  So what?

You don't get it.  I don't need to work out scientific principles.  I know what they are already, well enough that I can tell where there will be violations of those laws.  You're the ones who are coming up with mythical rationalizations for concepts that I have to spend no effort on.

[Jusmak]

20 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Certainly the placebo effect can be explained.  The power of belief has long been known as an important factor in healing, and been proven in scientific experiments.  However, that belief is often dependent on the individual's faith, which is generally stronger overall in those cultures than in, say, the American culture.  

This is something I am interested with. Who and when has managed to draw a function, and explained how it works, because thats new to me? No beliefs and experiments but a formula, a function, a math, which is accepted by scientific community. Which molecule, where, how have effect on target molecule?  If something has an effect on physical world, it must have way to be calculted by physics, right?

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Jusmak said:

This is something I am interested with. Who and when has managed to draw a function, and explained how it works, because thats new to me? No beliefs and experiments but a formula, a function, a math, which is accepted by scientific community. Which molecule, where, how have effect on target molecule?  If something has an effect on physical world, it must have way to be calculted by physics, right?

???

Yelm's Light was speaking of the "placebo effect" (healing substantially-better than the statistically-predictable norm of healing, without any actual drug or other therapy, other than the patient's belief that they have received an effective therapy). You are asking for... Functions?  Formulae?  Maths?  Molecules and target molecules?  What are you asking after?   None of this has any relevance (that I can see) to the point Yelm's Light was discussing .

Or was the entirety of your point being that the mechanical methods of the "placebo effect" are not well documented, so we can call it "magic" if we want?   I understand that much; but frankly, this is the NORM in medicine:  stuff that's subtle/complex takes a LONG time to figure out (your invocation of physics and math seem... beside the point).

My daughter was just diagnosed with one such condition -- it's been given a fancy "scientific" name, but the bottom line is:

• nobody knows what causes it
• there is no cure
• the symptoms can be "managed" but only for less frequency and/or lower severity
• every patient needs a different "management strategy" -- something that works for one may or may not work for another
• the only way to determine the "strategy" is by trial and error -- does THIS cause you days of agony?  -- does THAT?

Shall we just call it an demon, or malocchio, or a hex?  Shall we seek mystical cures?

N.B. / edit -- Apologies if I come off harsh; I may be expressing my frustration with my daughter's medical situation, and neither Jusmak nor anybody else here should take it as applying to them personally...

Edited January 28, 2018 by g33k

[soltakss]

On 1/26/2018 at 6:34 PM, Yelm's Light said:

And to your 'devolution' point, what did species devolve from, according to your theory?  What was the 'super race' of men, or bison, or merfolk?

Super Men - Brithini, Agimori, Ogres

Merfolk - Tritons

Trolls - UzUz/Mistress Race

Dwarves - Original Caste Mostali (Not Clay Mostali)

Lots of devolution there.