Resurrecting RuneQuest (Black Gate)

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

According to you, it's an attempt at world-building from underlying mythic principles which quite literally denies all science.  I'm still waiting to see any canonical reference that explicitly states that there is no such thing as science in Glorantha, not some conclusion that you've drawn based on some highly questionable premises.  I won't find the word 'supercalifragilisticexpialidocious' in RQ either.  So what?

Of course there is science in Glorantha.

Mostali and Brithini use science all the while.

Science is Knowledge, classification, experimentation and so on.

Of course, in Glorantha, science is different than in the real world.

In the real world, if you chop the tails off 10 generations of mice you get tailed mice, same as Glorantha, but if you cut off Mother Mouse's tail in Glorantha then her children will be born with no tails. 

[styopa]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

In the real world, if you chop the tails off 10 generations of mice you get tailed mice, same as Glorantha, but if you cut off Mother Mouse's tail in Glorantha then her children will be born with no tails. 

As long as you survive the almost certain retribution by the angry Mouse King Spirit.  All science has dangerous consequences.

[Jusmak]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

Or was the entirety of your point being that the mechanical methods of the "placebo effect" are not well documented, so we can call it "magic" if we want?   I understand that much; but frankly, this is the NORM in medicine:  stuff that's subtle/complex takes a LONG time to figure out (your invocation of physics and math seem... beside the point).

My daughter was just diagnosed with one such condition -- it's been given a fancy "scientific" name, but the bottom line is:

• nobody knows what causes it
• there is no cure
• the symptoms can be "managed" but only for less frequency and/or lower severity
• every patient needs a different "management strategy" -- something that works for one may or may not work for another
• the only way to determine the "strategy" is by trial and error -- does THIS cause you days of agony?  -- does THAT?

Shall we just call it an demon, or malocchio, or a hex?  Shall we seek mystical cures?

N.B. / edit -- Apologies if I come off harsh; I may be expressing my frustration with my daughter's medical situation, and neither Jusmak nor anybody else here should take it as applying to them personally...

My effort bringing blasebo as example, that science does not know much about it, if almost all it knows is to agree it exists. When there is small amount of data conclusion are more probably false, but that is anyway called "scientific truth." Anyway there are many ways to react to claim and many possiblities to explain unknown. What is really known, and how useful that information is... Like brainscanning giving some evidence of thought/emontional processes. It just shows there is activity, nothing else, rest is interpretation. Science is quite open for false interpretations as modifying results into wanted direction.

Sorry to hear about your daughter's condition. I was in similar situation at 1995, I got diagnose, which means nothing, no cure, pains were constant, at that time there was no management strategies. I needed to find those strategies all by myself. I did so. Science did not, and still does not into extent that there would be no pain. I do not know any other person, who has made himself complately painfree from that diagnose, which is pure crap, because number of wrong assumptions, conclusion made at very start of research of condition. If doctors keep it that way, cure is never found, which I think will be so. I had already my days of agony. It took 7 years to be painfree, and slipping badly from my own "management strategy" will bring pains back. Mystical cure is name for a thing, that is not understood. I tired all, that came by, but answers did come from any one of them. While things like, what people think about science in fantasy or real world is quite meaningless to me, when there is real things to worry about. I just want to wish better days to come for your family. Patience with testing, and hope for future. It may take several years, but answer/right strategy may come.

[Steve]

21 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

According to you, it's an attempt at world-building from underlying mythic principles which quite literally denies all science.  I'm still waiting to see any canonical reference that explicitly states that there is no such thing as science in Glorantha, not some conclusion that you've drawn based on some highly questionable premises.  I won't find the word 'supercalifragilisticexpialidocious' in RQ either.  So what?

You don't get it.  I don't need to work out scientific principles.  I know what they are already, well enough that I can tell where there will be violations of those laws.  You're the ones who are coming up with mythical rationalizations for concepts that I have to spend no effort on.

Sorry, but I need to point out that it's you who doesn't "get it", because you're talking as if you can apply scientific principles from our own world to Glorantha to explain things. You can't. The best canonical reference I can find right now is something that Jeff posted a while back (I will try and find the exact source so that I can refer you to that). See below. Edit - source now added.

And of course there is science in Glorantha. It's just that their "science" is based on completely different principles to our own world's science. The former is based on runes, myth and events from the God Time, the latter is based on subatomic particles, physical forces, chemical compounds etc.

This is what Jeff said - source:

 

Quote

Mythology explains Gloranthan reality far better than poorly applied terrestrial physics. Glorantha is a cube of earth floating in a limitless river, with the Sky Dome above it and the Underworld beneath. The Sun really does travel across the sky and descends each dusk into the Gates of Dusk and then traverses the Underworld only to remerge from the Gates of Dawn. That's Gloranthan reality.

Gloranthan physics are the results of the events of the God Time - especially the Gods War. If you reason from that point, things make sense. Magic is simply the communication between the eternal God Time (which is endlessly present and eternally there) and our world of Time. The God Time is not subject to the Laws of Thermodynamics and when a magician manages to draw some manifestation of the eternal into the world of Time, that event is not subject to the same. 

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Steve

[simonh]

23 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

According to you, it's an attempt at world-building from underlying mythic principles which quite literally denies all science.  I'm still waiting to see any canonical reference that explicitly states that there is no such thing as science in Glorantha, not some conclusion that you've drawn based on some highly questionable premises.  I won't find the word 'supercalifragilisticexpialidocious' in RQ either.  So what?

You don't get it.  I don't need to work out scientific principles.  I know what they are already, well enough that I can tell where there will be violations of those laws.  You're the ones who are coming up with mythical rationalizations for concepts that I have to spend no effort on.

The talk in this thread about science is realy about several very distinct things. There is the scientific method. Nobody here is denying that it is possible to apply this method in Glorantha. Then there are real world scientifically proven principles and laws. It appears to me that you are proposing that in Glorantha the same laws and principles apply as in our world. Is that fair? also, do you agree that the results obtained using the scientific method could be different in a world with different natural laws to out own? If so, then all we need to determine is if Glorantha is such a world.

For my part, looking at the evidence it appears highly unlikely that the same physical laws and principles from our world apply in Glorantha. At an everyday level the results apoear very similar in some ways, but radically different in others. Here are a few examples.

Magic routinely violates the laws of thermodynamic and conservation of momentum. Summoning elementals is the simplest example and should be easily replicable in repeatable 'laboratory' conditions. Multimissile seems pretty unlikely to conserve momentum. Then we have all sorts of flying magic playing havoc with gravitation, measuring density of materials, etc. Clearly the physical laws we are used to and can prove to be universal on Earth cannot be universal in Glorantha.

Now lets look at the world of Glorantha itself. Kero Fin mountain, as described, appears to be physically impossible according to real world physics and geology, it would collapse under its own weight. Magasta's Pool is another good one. Any vortex that big and that powerful would erode itself out incredibly quickly, yet it has stable structures projecting within it over long periods. Then there's the Red Moon hanging there in the sky in blatant defiance if the laws of Gravity. Giants as large as Gonn Orta would collapse, breaking their own bones with their own weight while their blood vessels would burst from the pressure. If Glorantha is a cube, how is that gravitationaly stable? What about the oceans, wouldnt they flow to form huge domesin the middke of the cube faces? How could Yelm's 'orbit' be stable?

I just dont think that saying magic is some sort of negligible exception cuts ice. Clearly magic and mythic explanations are fundamental. They explain the world, their conclusions are measurable, consistent and testable. As such they appear to pass the criteria we apply to scientific theories in the real world.

Science in the real world is all about predictive power. Its the ultimate practical pursuit. We only accept scientific theories if they can be tested and proven. Repeatability is the core requirement. I think applying that approach in Glorantha will produce very different results to doing so in our world.

I hope this is taken generously, I'm not entirely sure what your position is precisely, so if Im taking things for granted a bit please let me know and I'd appreciate clarification. Best wishes.

Simon Hibbs

Edited January 28, 2018 by simonh

[Yelm's Light]

4 hours ago, Steve said:

Sorry, but I need to point out that it's you who doesn't "get it", because you're talking as if you can apply scientific principles from our own world to Glorantha to explain things. You can't. The best canonical reference I can find right now is something that Jeff posted a while back (I will try and find the exact source so that I can refer you to that). See below. Edit - source now added.

Among other things, that depends on whether you accept that the Runes themselves are the fundamental particles of Glorantha, another assertion that I reject for a number of reasons, primarily having to do with complexity.  Or, if you accept Joerg's assertion that Runes are analogous to elements, then they are not the fundamental particles, so what are those particles?

4 hours ago, Steve said:

And of course there is science in Glorantha. It's just that their "science" is based on completely different principles to our own world's science. The former is based on runes, myth and events from the God Time, the latter is based on subatomic particles, physical forces, chemical compounds etc.

Funny how every explanation I've ever seen has involved myth, not science.  For there being no RW science, it's also funny how so many things on Glorantha work exactly the same as in the RW.

Quote

Gloranthan physics are the results of the events of the God Time - especially the Gods War. If you reason from that point, things make sense. Magic is simply the communication between the eternal God Time (which is endlessly present and eternally there) and our world of Time. The God Time is not subject to the Laws of Thermodynamics and when a magician manages to draw some manifestation of the eternal into the world of Time, that event is not subject to the same. 

I have a problem with this in particular.  So energy just appears from nowhere or goes away to nowhere in the God Time?

Edited January 28, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[g33k]

14 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

I have a problem with this in particular.  So energy just appears from nowhere or goes away to nowhere in the God Time?

If you will permit, I should like to take a tongue-in-cheek moment to "have a problem with your having a problem with" this...  

I quote from Wikipedia; this is, of course, a source of unimpeachable authority </sarcasm>...

Quote

...  According to Quantum Field Theory the universe can be thought of not as isolated particles but continuous fluctuating fields: matter fields, whose quanta are fermions (i.e. leptons and quarks), and force fields, whose quanta are bosons (e.g. photons and gluons). All these fields have zero-point energy.^[2] These fluctuating zero-point fields lead to a kind of reintroduction of an aether in physics,^[1][3] ...

... Physicists Richard Feynman and John Wheeler calculated the zero-point radiation of the vacuum to be an order of magnitude greater than nuclear energy, with a single light bulb containing enough energy to boil all the world's oceans ...

So obviously God Time is the source of Glorantha's Zero Point Energy!!!

Scientifically proven.

Problem solved.  

 

 

[simonh]

2 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Funny how every explanation I've ever seen has involved myth, not science.  For there being no RW science, it's also funny how so many things on Glorantha work exactly the same as in the RW. 

Ive been lucky enough to discuss this with Greg a few times. That’s exactly the premise he used when creating a Glorantha - that it be a world with many recognisable attributes from our own world (edit - and some other fictional ones) in appearance and mundane details, but built from the ground up based on mythic principles. There’s nothing random or accidental or serendipitous about it, and I really don’t understand why you seem to think it’s surprising. Its deliberate creative intent.

Simon Hibbs

Edited January 28, 2018 by simonh

[Yelm's Light]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

If you will permit, I should like to take a tongue-in-cheek moment to "have a problem with your having a problem with" this...  

I quote from Wikipedia; this is, of course, a source of unimpeachable authority </sarcasm>...

So obviously God Time is the source of Glorantha's Zero Point Energy!!!

Scientifically proven.

Problem solved.  

Zero Point Energy isn't literally zero energy.  What it means is that the minimum energy of a field will fluctuate thanks to our old buddy Werner Heisenberg (who it is quite possible sabotaged the Nazi nuclear program, but that's beside the point).  ZPE refers to the minimum possible energy for that field, which can't be zero, or there would be no field.  Whoever wrote that part of the wiki apparently doesn't know enough about quantum physics...or is very bad at communicating it.

(Also, that Feynman & Wheeler calculation is unsupported by experimental evidence.)

Edited January 29, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[simonh]

3 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Zero Point Energy isn't literally zero energy.  What it means is that the minimum energy of a field will fluctuate thanks to our old buddy Werner Heisenberg ...

To be fair the page starts off with pretty much exactly this explanation, two sentences up from the start of that snippet.

Simon Hibbs

[Al.]

My view (of little enough worth I am sure)

One can use the scientific method on Glorantha

Observation, logical analysis, adopting the model which is best supported by available evidence and willingness to change one's opinion on which model is best supported

It's just that the fundamental forces are different, and so the evidence from experimental observation will likewise differ

[g33k]

On 1/28/2018 at 9:09 PM, Yelm's Light said:

Zero Point Energy isn't literally zero energy.  What it means is that the minimum energy of a field will fluctuate thanks to our old buddy Werner Heisenberg (who it is quite possible sabotaged the Nazi nuclear program, but that's beside the point).  ZPE refers to the minimum possible energy for that field, which can't be zero, or there would be no field.  Whoever wrote that part of the wiki apparently doesn't know enough about quantum physics...or is very bad at communicating it.

(Also, that Feynman & Wheeler calculation is unsupported by experimental evidence.)

<sigh>

My point was that God Time (and energy in the mortal realm coming from / going to there (in apparent contradiction of "Laws" of conservation)) appears remarkably similar to certain ZPE concepts.

And it was meant -- as I explicitly noted -- in a tongue-in-cheek manner.

[Rick Meints]

On 1/27/2018 at 6:46 AM, Yelm's Light said:

That's funny.  I'm somewhat of an expert on RQ2, and never once in any of the many supplements, mags, or the rules themselves I've owned did I see a single mention of such.  The only old-time things I've never owned are Borderlands and the WF's, although I do have Footprints.  So pretty clearly not explicit.

There must be a lot of spirits around to keep every being and other object that isn't connected to the earth from floating away like Lastday.  Tell me about handwaving.  Positing magic says nothing about physics, other than that magic may be able to violate physical laws through application.  Claiming no science is an assertion only.

It'd be interesting if he himself would comment on some of this stuff...does he ever post here?

Greg, at best, rarely posts anywhere on the internet any more. I can't remember if he has ever posted on BRPCentral. Regardless, I think this debate on how science is involved in Glorantha has largely run its course. In your Glorantha please do whatever you feel is best for how the laws of physics and science apply. At best it's a grey area of Glorantha. From where I am sitting, I wouldn't worry about canon either. It isn't meant to get in the way of anyone's personal creativity for their campaign. The only time it would even be a potential issue is if you submit something for publication to us and your version of "how things work" is radically different from what we (Chaosium) tend to publish. 

On the off chance you are interested in my personal opinion on science and physics in Glorantha, here's my basic take. I find it more fun and interesting that Gold is heavy because it is trying to be closer to Yelm in the Underworld. I like the concept that Dwarves can tunnel through air, and that's how they send supplies up to their high altitude observation balloon. It's the same with the myth that most rivers reversed course and flow towards magasta's whirlpool in an attempt to fill the void. I don't trust rivers for the most part because they are all water serpents anyway... Does everything in Glorantha work based on Myth? Possibly. I haven't thought through all that, and it's not really how I want to spend my time. If you love it, please spend your time on it, although you should expect to get, as we have seen, other people disagreeing with you. Who's actually RIGHT? That doesn't really matter to me. You can both be right when it comes to Glorantha. As has been said, when it comes to Glorantha, it is full of groups of people who believe the exact opposite of what other groups think, and they are all right. It doesn't have to make sense. I prefer to think it does have to be fun though.

[MOB]

[MOB - wearing hat as mod, and original poster]

As Rick has noted, this thread has diverged a l-o-n-g way from the original topic, which was the reprint of the Resurrecting RuneQuest article in Black Gate Magazine.

As Rick also notes, Glorantha is full of groups of people who believe the exact opposite of what other groups think, and they are all right, and that can be the last word on that here. If anyone wishes to continue discussing the role of science/the scientific method in Glorantha, please start a new thread.

 

[seneschal]

My beef with this thread is that we got to see the goofy monster illustrations but not the cheesecake warrior ones.  Nearly four decades of hungry dragon newts can't be wrong -- scantily armored soldiers are a Runequest staple.  Sorry about them losing their shield arms.  😁

[Rick Meints]

On 12/29/2017 at 2:20 PM, styopa said:

I've tried to figure this out for years as well.  The character sheets was a downright offensive cash grab, even in an era where copies cost you $0.06/sheet.  Turning Trollpak into FOUR products?  Seriously WTF? (Was there anything actually new at all in those?  I never bought the AH ones as I already had it.)

The paper-covers for the rules is an easy one, in contrast.  Look at any other AH product - wargames.  Rulebooks were ALWAYS paper covers, even substantial products like Squad Leader.  It makes sense from their view that a "game" sold in a "box" didn't need more-durable covers.  FWIW lots of peers at the time did the same thing: Judges Guild products, for example, were all paper-cover.  Cardstock covers were only a thing for when the product wasn't boxed.  Art?  From their view, again who bothers with art in a "rulebook" (ala Squad Leader) unless you're diagramming line of sight?   Hell, I'm faintly surprised looking back that they didn't give us a little sheet of counters for our characters.  "Harrek 10-2 SMC, Berserk-capable leader"

And, while it may be heresy to bring up, of course the next question is: why did they sell Runequest to AH in the FIRST place? 

Granted, it's not like there was a thriving RPG industry to choose from - it was pretty much what, TSR or Chaosium?  I guess there were also FASA, SJG, Flying Buffalo, Iron Crown.  Was FGU a thing yet?  Anyway, the market cap of all of them combined (less TSR) in 1981 was probably less than AH.  I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in that discussion: what was promised?  What was paid?  There had to have been a contract with expectations and failure clauses? 

We look back with 20/20 hindsight to say that it was a dumb sale in retrospect, but if we grant (as that linked article does) that 82-23 was the Golden Era for Runequest, why sell out at all?  Was Chaosium already on the financial ropes that badly?

Due to an innate curiosity in the history of company, I've been doing a bit of research. 

The basics of the 1983 deal with AH was that Chaosium would produce RuneQuest books (write, edit, lay out, commission the art and maps) and then Avalon Hill would print, advertise and sell them. Chaosium had to pay for all of the writing, editing and layout, while AH paid for all the art and printing, plus advertising and marketing. Chaosium got a royalty of 5% royalty based on the retail price of each book. Yep, 5%. When Chaosium did all of the work themselves for RQ2, they would get about 40% of the cover price when they sold to distributors. Of course they had to pay for the printing and advertising, but even when those costs were taken out of their 40% they still made more than 5% of the retail price.

As a quick example, Cults of Terror had a retail price of $10.00, so Chaosium would get a little less than $4 for it through Distribution. The book cost them $1.08 to create AND print, so let's say they made $2.50 net per sale, which is making 25% of the retail price. Thus, AH was paying them about 1/5th of what they were used to making per book. It did not take long for Chaosium to realize this. If sales didn't dramatically increase, they were going to be making less money than doing it all themselves.

The deal was modified a bit in 1986. Avalon Hill was put solely in charge of artwork, although Chaosium had to approve it. Another item of note was that Chaosium was contracted to produce 3-6 "low cost" modules per year.  This was supposed to be in addition to the production of 4 larger supplements per year. Thus, Chaosium was contracted to produce 10 RQ products per year as of 1986. For one thing, it's easy to see why TrollPak was divided into two boxed sets and two "low cost" modules. That alone provided 4 of the 10 products expected. In 1989 Bill Dunn, the RQ Line Manager at Chaosium, was on the hook for 4 completed and approved manuscripts to send to AH before the end of the year. Among the ones they sent over were Eldarad and Daughters of Darkness... 

Chaosium was not at all hands-off in the 1980s while they were working with Avalon Hill. Look at the names on ALL of the early RQ3 releases. Every one of them (including every boxed set) are primarily written by Greg Stafford, Steve Perrin, Sandy Petersen and/or Bill Dunn, plus sometimes one additional writer like Ken Rolston or Bob Charrette. That didn't really change until about 1989.

More when I have time.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Rick Meints

[Rick Meints]

One thing of note about why there were so many boxed sets. In the early 80s Chaosium regularly producing them, as did a lot of the industry. Avalon Hill had no trouble going along with that because they were part of Monarch Printing, which meant they did their printing in their own corporate owned printing (and box making) facilities. Avalon Hill was VERY used to printing boxed games since almost all of their wargames (and other RPGs like Powers and Perils and Lords of Creation) came in a box. Making boxes was very easy for them and they thought that was the standard too.

A side note about the character sheets. While B&W photocopying was fairly common and available in the 1980s, color character sheets were also popular, and they were produced by many game companies as a relatively inexpensive supplement. Games Workshop sold them for RQ2. TSR regularly sold them for D&D (although they were also underwhelming).  

[Mankcam]

Interesting to read all this background stuff on Chaosium...

Edited February 1, 2018 by Mankcam

[styopa]

14 hours ago, seneschal said:

My beef with this thread is that we got to see the goofy monster illustrations but not the cheesecake warrior ones.  Nearly four decades of hungry dragon newts can't be wrong -- scantily armored soldiers are a Runequest staple.  Sorry about them losing their shield arms.  😁

I blame Louise.

I mean, who wasn't IMMEDIATELY sympathetic to the Air Rune?

13 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

One thing of note about why there were so many boxed sets. In the early 80s Chaosium regularly producing them, as did a lot of the industry. Avalon Hill had no trouble going along with that because they were part of Monarch Printing, which meant they did their printing in their own corporate owned printing (and box making) facilities. Avalon Hill was VERY used to printing boxed games since almost all of their wargames (and other RPGs like Powers and Perils and Lords of Creation) came in a box. Making boxes was very easy for them and they thought that was the standard too.

A side note about the character sheets. While B&W photocopying was fairly common and available in the 1980s, color character sheets were also popular, and they were produced by many game companies as a relatively inexpensive supplement. Games Workshop sold them for RQ2. TSR regularly sold them for D&D (although they were also underwhelming).  

I still quite like the box sets, rather than just buying a book.  It just feels more like a thing to me (and could include neat stuff like maps and non-book components), but I'm from that era where you immediately rationalized the price of a product against how heavy the box was.  I know Chaosium still has this spirit in there too - Orient Express box was ...Brobdingnagian.

 

 

[jeffjerwin]

On 31 January 2018 at 6:32 PM, seneschal said:

My beef with this thread is that we got to see the goofy monster illustrations but not the cheesecake warrior ones.  Nearly four decades of hungry dragon newts can't be wrong -- scantily armored soldiers are a Runequest staple.  Sorry about them losing their shield arms.  😁

Isn't the thing on the cover a slarge? That was my head-canon, anyway.

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Isn't the thing on the cover a slarge? That was my head-canon, anyway.

Slarges didn't exist until Griffin Island in the mid-1980's.  The beast is a rock lizard.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Slarges didn't exist until Griffin Island in the mid-1980's.  The beast is a rock lizard.

Ah, OK.

I was under the impression that Sandy Peterson introduced them to Glorantha.

Edited February 4, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[jajagappa]

38 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

I was under the impression that Sandy Peterson introduced them to Glorantha.

Looking at Jeff Okamota's chronicle of Sandy's Pamaltela campaign, they are referenced there: "In Tarien can be found the slarges of old".  But they are not described in that work, and that material was not commonly available.  Griffin Island was their first appearance in print.

[seneschal]

8 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Isn't the thing on the cover a slarge? That was my head-canon, anyway.

Hard to make a definitive identification when you're trying not to get eaten.  😉