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Grievous

Gloranthan Dance/Ritual

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1 hour ago, hkokko said:

it is lovely to see non Finns debating our folklore.

I'm glad you think so! I'm always worried that I'll say something that seem obviously wrong to Finns, but of course I genuinely love the Kalevala stories. 

I absolutely agree that it is good idea not to take the Kalevala as a whole too much as the authoritative version, but as a collection of good stories. Lönnrot did a great thing in collecting the stories, but scholarship now I think understands the ways in which Lönnrot assembled the stories into a whole reflects not just his academic bias, but a particular agenda (to create a national epic) and so some details reflect that agenda rather than then the most objective way to look at those stories.  But the stories are wonderful, and very inspirational. 

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5 hours ago, davecake said:

I thought we'd discussed, and concluded, that the homeland of the Third Eye Blue people being conveniently smack in the middle of the Fronelan Hsunchen homelands was an appropriate way to integrate those stories.  I think that is a far better way to do it than via the Dronari near Sog City, who are very much weird outsiders to the Hsunchen - remind me more of eg dwarves in Viking stories. 

So you are creating a North Fronelan mythical landscape with the Uncoling Shaman-Singer, the TEB smith and the Rathori headstrong warrior?

I was seeing the TEB more in the role of Louhi than Ilmarinen - quite different from oneself, not quite local.

Always presuming that there was a Hsunchen "us" when there wasn't a strong overdose of "them" (whether the Gbaji empire, the God Learners, post God-Learner Loskalm (so they claim) or the Kingdom of War).

The Dawn Age Serpent Beast Brotherhood was such a animal-totem surpassing union of shaman-overchiefs, and they managed to gather six of the Eleven Beasts of that Dawn Age battle against the Gbaji allies (from Prax and converted locals).

Which makes me note that earth worshipping "Beast Riders" were far from exclusive to Prax, the entire western forest of Genertela had them. Bulls, stags, zebras, elephants, llamas, musk oxen, mammoths, and horses.

5 hours ago, davecake said:

It's a tiny detail, but I recall that Piku in Apple Land (the only 3EB character in canon) knows a charm to sing iron into the shape of animal heads. Fits very nicely.

So, then who exactly are the TEB folk? Remnant Kachisti gone mainly native, but retaining a knack for sorcery that allowed them to either invent iron independently or to really steal it from the dwarves (who would claim that the secret was stolen regardless whether the TEB made the discovery themselves or not)?

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

You might be getting a bit confused with the Damali?

No. I distinctly remember Pralori Hsunchen outside of the direct neighborhood of Pralorela (i.e. ouside of southern Safelster, Tanisor and western Maniria). The fringes of the elf woods would be friendly territory to them, making Erontree much less of a barrier than for the Malkioni (who did have road rights for a single Alaskan Highway route).

5 hours ago, davecake said:

I'm not implying you can't tell the deer apart from elk, just that the entry for the Kralorelan Damali mentions the Pralori several times, and the two peoples seem often associated. The Guide also shows Pralori around modern Pithdaros at the Dawn, which also might be what you are thinking of? 

Pithdaros is within the ancient Pralori-led Serpent Beast Brotherhood of southwestern Genertela. (Elsewhere other Hsunchen took the lead, where they didn't get infected by culture like the Enerali, Enjoreli or Pendali.)

5 hours ago, davecake said:

And just because there isn't a sustainable Hsunchen population doesn't mean the animals are absent, or the spirits can not be magically contacted. 

That's sort of my conceptual problem. If the stag and stag spirit population (and population density) in Pralorela isn't much higher than in Rathorela, then why aren't there any two-legged stags in Rathorela? Less than elsewhere isn't much of a problem. We are talking migratory hunter-gatherer culture here, with 500 people already an above-minimum sustainable population.

There doesn't appear to be any open hostility between aldryami and hsunchen, either. The aldryami reforestation project would benefit the hsunchen, and they in turn might help defend this new extended habitat against farmers eager to cut it back again.

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19 hours ago, soltakss said:

Which is as good as, if not better than, the Gloranthan poetry we know and love. "Foul Slime ...", "Wandering Son, Jealous Uncle ...", "Flee, flee" and so on.

That translation gets the point of the text, but definitely not the art of it - so I'd say it's a bit better in the original language. Not exactly easy to translate!

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1 hour ago, Grievous said:

That translation gets the point of the text, but definitely not the art of it - so I'd say it's a bit better in the original language. Not exactly easy to translate!

Yep. Many poems are very difficult to get right in another language - the tone, the rhythm, the nuances, the implied culture

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10 hours ago, davecake said:

 

... I'm not implying you can't tell the deer apart from elk... 

Worth noting for us Colonials -- what we call a "Moose" is usually called an "Elk" in Norse- & English-speaking Europe...

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2 hours ago, g33k said:

Worth noting for us Colonials -- what we call a "Moose" is usually called an "Elk" in Norse- & English-speaking Europe...

Been there, done that - "The Great Moose Debate" is one of the points in the list of Digest encounters that the world could have been spared. But it did clear up that the Pralori ride wapiti red deer, and not moose, and created the Alekki Hsunchen to boot.

Edited by Joerg

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44 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Been there, done that - "The Great Moose Debate" is one of the points in the list of Digest encounters that the world could have been spared...

Yes; but the same things keep coming up again and again.

Lots of folks here on BRP Central weren't on that list for the Great Moose Debate.  I know that I wasn't -- but I WAS there for the same(ish) debate on Ars Magica's Berzerklist for Bjornaer magi and other shapeshifters.  We also noted that the "cougar/puma/mountain-lion" is unknown in Mythic Europe, as is the Raccoon; but the Lion is possible & even the Tiger, in south-eastern Europe (near the southern Urals / Caspian Sea) are both viable.

Dragging this back to Glorantha, I continue to be bemused by the mix of Old-World, New-World, and Prehistoric species.  While perfectly capable of hoisting the "YGMV and Mine DOES!" banner, I admit to occasional WTF moments when a species I presume as non-Gloranthan proves to Canonically Exist (or vice versa).  I have yet to determine if the rhyme has any reason...

Also possibly worth noting is that Merikans and Eurofolk mean different things when they name such iconic animals as:

  • "Robin"
  • "Buzzard" (though parts of USA use "Buzzard" more broadly)
  • "badger"
  • likely also several others...  :-)

 

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"Turkey" was originally a European name for the guinea fowl, which was called the 'Turkey Coq" because they were imported via the Ottoman Empire. Fortunately there are no Turkey Hsunchen... or are there?

 

Genertela is clearly a mis-mash of Old World and New World fauna and flora. Raccoons are North American, for example. I believe there are potatoes in Genertela (much like Middle-earth as it happens...).

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1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

Genertela is clearly a mis-mash of Old World and New World fauna and flora. Raccoons are North American, for example. I believe there are potatoes in Genertela (much like Middle-earth as it happens...).

And before Maize / Indian-Corn, "Corn" was a generic term for edible grains.

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8 hours ago, g33k said:

Also possibly worth noting is that Merikans and Eurofolk mean different things when they name such iconic animals as

Also, many Australian birds are not the same species as foreign counterparts, crows and ravens but especially magpies. 

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19 hours ago, Joerg said:

"The Great Moose Debate" is one of the points in the list of Digest encounters that the world could have been spared.

Baron von Moose-Hsunchen! 

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