Rokari

[metcalph]

Moved from the HQ forum

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The Rokari Church is a barely-wallpapered version of the Catholic Church.  It has its Knights Templar (Order of Saint Gerlant), its Inquisitors (Order of the Golden Lance), its hospitallers (Order of Saint Xemela), and its copyists (the Humble Calligraphers, though they are far more independent in relation to the Church than their RW counterparts were).  It also has the Iron Blood 'School,' which supported crusading armies.  And with the Closing, it has its variety of sects splintering from it and that are mostly termed heretical by the Church (see:  Lutheranism, Protestantism, Anglicanism, etc.), which it does its utmost to stamp out or absorb.  All of this a millennium or more beyond the Bronze Age setting of the world.  Nevermind that, if anything, a church-based system would seem far more theist, whether poly- or mono-.

More generally, the entire idea of wizardry being overwhelmingly governed by churches in the first place is almost completely alien to fantasy fiction.  Wizards are mostly reduced to monastic types in Glorantha.  Yep, I get that Malkionism is the religion for an entire state, and even spills over into other regions (again much like the Catholic Church), but generalizing that to an entire magic system?  Bishop Gandalf, anyone?  Brother Merlin?  Friar Ged?  How many Church Wizards have you ever heard of in fantasy fiction?

If anything, wizardry should be based on the school model that is a very minor part of the HQ* rules.  Earthsea's School of Magic in particular comes to mind as a solid exemplar.

The Rokari Church as described in the HeroQuest 1.0 rules no longer exists.  For starters, it is not a church.  Most of the fighting orders in Seshnela are barely disguised Hsunchen cults.  I doubt that the Golden Lance and the Humble Calligraphers exist.  I have no idea how Gerlant's cult functions in Seshnela.  

The Rokari school is dogmatic because of its history.  Any deviation from its own truths leads to invasion by the Arkati and/or divine destruction caused through God Learner error.  They do not care for whatever foolishness the commoners believe (so long as they are not blatantly erroneous), what they really care is conformity among the wizards.

[davecake]

I think of the sects as described in earlier sources as being something less like a medieval Christian sect, and more like an Islamic madhhab (or schools of religious jurisprudence). They are intellectual traditions of argument, differentiated in large part by their meta-reasoning about which sources of insight are weighted in which way, that are inextricable from, but not the same as, the political divisions that accompany them. And they are intellectual traditions based on learning and study, but as they are core to social institutions like the courts they are political as well. 

To a large extent, as Peter says, they care a lot about the beliefs of the wizards (and nobles), far less about the commoners (and warriors). 

And when I talk about their meta-reasoning, I mean that the schools are distinguished, as a high level, by how they deal with the various sources of knowledge available to them. All schools interpret their texts literally, allegorically, mystically, and morally, but not all in the same way or with the same weight. They have rules for deciding which texts are to be relatively weighted (including works of Zzabur, different parts of the Abiding Book, witnesses, apocrypha, other Ascended Masters, precedents, commentaries, and mundane texts), and continually produce more such texts. They also have magical investigative techniques to use, as well as mundane techniques like how they rate witnesses and testimony or mundane legal codes, or even (gasp) empirical investigation in some cases. In practice, its all pretty complicated, as codes of practice that run an entire society often are, but we can ignore most of it luckily. 

The Rokari are dogmatic because of their history, and enforce a single rule of how to interpret and practice Malkioni Law. But the God Learners, by contrast, included multiple competing schools of thought within the one Empire. And Tanisor, lacking a political institution to enforce conformity, is very diverse as a result. 

I think the fightng orders are more than barely disguised, over a millennia later, but yes, they are a long way from being orthodox Rokari institutions. And as long as they are restricted to the warrior caste (which probably doesn't even have internal mechanisms for settling issues of theological orthodoxy the way the wizard caste does) no one pays much attention. I agree that the Golden Lance and the Humble Calligraphers may no longer exist, and I am fairly sure that any institution that has the name of a specific person in it no longer exists as a Rokari religious institution (though may exist as a sorcerous tradition), including any Order of Xemela or Gerlant, as the Rokari disdain for reverence of Ascended Masters is a core part of their belief system.

I do think that confusing sorcery schools with schools of Malkionism doesn't help and should be avoided, its unfortunate (but understandable) that we seem to have settled on the same terminology for each. The Malkioni schools are broad intellectual traditions about both meta-knowledge and textual knowledge, and its application to settling issues of governance and theology,  but the sorcery schools are communities/traditions of practice and practical knowledge distinguished more by subject and technique of sorcery.  Most sorcery schools are not associated with a particular school of Malkionism - eg Debaldan schools teach Water magic, and is taught practically anywhere on the Neliomi sea coast, and has been used by Rokari, Hrestoli, Brithini and Waertagi. 

Some schools are associated with a particular sect (eg the Zendamalthan), but others much less so. And even the ones that associated with a particular school may not be rigidly so - a Rokari Zzaburi could consult a Zendamalthan book about geometry, just as long as he doesn't get any weird ideas about Joy. But in general, a school of sorcery is mostly important only to sorcerers, a school of Malkionism is also of great importance to nobles, and thus everyone. 

[Mankcam]

I think looking at Zoroastrianism, Judiaism (inc Kabbalah), and Islam widen how we view the Malkioni, getting away from the previous analogies which were very much medeival (including The Church). 

I'm not saying it is a perfect fit, but it does help when trying to conceptualise the Malkioni Sects.

That's also a very good point differientating between the Schools and the Sects

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Mankcam

[metcalph]

Just now, Mankcam said:

I think looking at Zoraism, Judiaism, and Islam widen how we view the Malkioni, getting away from the previous analogies which were very much medeival (including The Church). 

A major distinction between those faiths and Malkionism is that the Malkioni population as a whole are not obliged to know details about the Invisible God, the nature of Joy etc.  All they are required to do is to obey the Wizards on matters of magic.  They do not obey the Wizards because they believe in the Invisible God.  They believe in the Wizards.

And to answer a question you posed on other forum, the medieval stuff primarily came about because they were writing up the Genertela boxed set and needed details about the West in a hurry.  

 

 

[Yelm's Light]

Thanks, guys.  Prax, Sartar, Dorastor, and the Elder Wilds (and to a lesser degree Pent) I pretty much own, but once I start heading west I'm clearly not an expert.

29 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

I think looking at Zoraism, Judiaism, and Islam widen how we view the Malkioni, getting away from the previous analogies which were very much medeival (including The Church). 

I'm not saying it is a perfect fit, but it does help when trying to conceptualise the Malkioni Zzurbari

Philosophy-wise I'm solid on the Neo-Platonists (I think it was Mankcam who mentioned them in the other thread).  The One came to mind when reading about Irensavel, and the stacked order of the higher Planes was familiar, although Plato and Plotinus defined them quite differently.  Not sure I get the Judaistic reference, unless you're talking about the Kabbalah.  And did you mean Zoroastrianism?

Edited January 25, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[Mankcam]

1 hour ago, Yelm's Light said:

Thanks, guys.  Prax, Sartar, Dorastor, and the Elder Wilds (and to a lesser degree Pent) I pretty much own, but once I start heading west I'm clearly not an expert.

Philosophy-wise I'm solid on the Neo-Platonists (I think it was Mankcam who mentioned them in the other thread).  The One came to mind when reading about Irensavel, and the stacked order of the higher Planes was familiar, although Plato and Plotinus defined them quite differently.  Not sure I get the Judaistic reference, unless you're talking about the Kabbalah.  And did you mean Zoroastrianism?

Yes I meant Zoroastrianism and I quickly edited my bad spelling, but you must have read my initial post.  The Judaistic reference was more aimed at the mystical Kabbalah end of things rather than the Torah, and really just for flavour.

Actually I have mentioned Neo-Platonists in a few other Malkioni threads, but it wasn’t the most recent one. I think Jeff Richard initially referenced it a few years ago upon the release of the G2G when we were all identifying that the Malkioni had obviously moved in a direction that was quite different from the earlier presentation

Just pointing out that it is difficult to have a clear picture; we are  waiting on official  Malkioni resources to be produced for RQG or HQG so we can get a better handle on the West, although there’s no harm in speculating in the right direction 😎

Edited January 25, 2018 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

And to answer a question you posed on other forum, the medieval stuff primarily came about because they were writing up the Genertela boxed set and needed details about the West in a hurry.  

A rushed project, that makes sense. I guess sketchy details and the wrong art direction really set things going down a different path. It must of been very disappointing  for Greg Stafford to see his creation be misinterpreted. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Mankcam

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

Moved from the HQ forum

 

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Rokari Church as described in the HeroQuest 1.0 rules no longer exists.

The current major reference to the Rokari is in the Western Cultural section of the Guide, the main part being:

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The Rokari school of Malkionism (or as it calls itself, “The Right Way”) dominates Seshnelan religious thought. Hierarchical and centralized, Rokarism is led by its Watcher Supreme. Rokari wizards believe upholding the ancient castes of Worker, Soldier, Wizard, and Noble is required by Malkion’s cosmic laws. They believe a man need only master his own duties of caste in life to achieve salvation, called “Solace”, and philosophically value a great farmer as much as a mighty warrior or powerful king. Converts to Rokarism are assigned to the most appropriate caste by the local ruler whose decision is final.

Later we are told that they are:

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Rokari: Realists; [with] rigid caste restrictions.

and the detail of the school is on page 408 in the Seshnela section.

Have a look at these too, were written when we were doing the guide:

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/malkioni-culture/

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/seshnela-art-direction/

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/quick-summary-gloranthan-cultures-part-two-westerners/

 

[Jeff]

I want to make it VERY clear. The Gloranthan West is not medieval. If you look at the Seshnela chapter of the Guide to Glorantha you'll see no reference to things like the Order of St Gerlant, Holy Lances, or any of the above. There is an Order of the Red Garter in Junora, but that is an attempt to foster New Hrestoli Idealism in the city-state of Einpor through a meritocratic honours system (and can be considered the exception that proves the rule).

[davecake]

 New-Platonists for sure. Also actual Plato - Loskalm is a magical Republic, and I think the Western understanding of the Runes is pretty much Platonic Forms. 

And yes, I use the Kabbalah as one useful model for Western magic, though not so much traditional Judaism as a model for the West (though some aspects fit). Also John Dee’s Enochian magic, particularly for God-Learners (wildly anachronistic, but magic, especially Western magic, isn’t going to always progress the way it did terrestrially in a world where it works so effectively, and the God-Learners show that). Medieval Solomonic magic just a bit, but with care.