Elmal Yelmalio thing

[Joerg]

On 8/25/2018 at 9:17 PM, M Helsdon said:

The Yelmalio cult is primarily native to the region just north of Dragon Pass - the portion of southern Peloria called Saird. For centuries, Saird has been the scene of both conflict and synthesis between the Storm and Solar cultures, so in that region except in the purely Orlanthi territories (and many kingdoms are mixed) Yelmalio is the Sun God of the uplands.

Note that Saird is the place of origin for the Elmal worship among the Orlanthi, too, with the Berennethtelli (and presumably the Orgorvaltes) bringing Elmal into the pantheon of the Vingkotlings.

Yelmalio or a cognate thereof is prominent further north, too. Palangio brought the cult of Daysenerus from Rindliddi, where a troll-fighting cult has its merits if you live north of the Arcos River, next to the Blue Moon plateau. This brought the Vrok Hawk into the religious imagery of the Yelmalians. There is no data on vrok hawks playing any role in Elmali imagery.

On 8/25/2018 at 9:17 PM, M Helsdon said:

The conversion in the Far Place and then Sartar was driven by Elmal worshippers going north to find help in fighting trolls (they came back with the Golden Spearman) and then a schism aided by Lunar interference, was instrumental in the reintroduction of Yelmalio into Sartar.

Interesting enough, the Yelmalio worshippers concentrate on the western half of the Far Place, with more traditional Orlanthi living in the direct neighborhood of the Indigo Mountains and Skyfall Lake. It doesn't really look like troll-fighting was high on the solar tribes' and clans' agenda.

 

On 8/25/2018 at 9:17 PM, M Helsdon said:

In other regions beyond Saird and Monrogh's influence, there hasn't been a schism and the Elmal cult retains its original position, and no conversion.

So you expect to find Elmali in Saird next to Sun Dome Temples?

3 hours ago, daskindt said:

This is certainly the version that makes the most sense to me based upon the previously published material I’ve read.

The importance of the Elmal cult in Heortling culture and mythology makes me think that the Yelmalio cult shouldn’t have had much success in displacing it as you leave those Elmali that were directly under Monrogh’s influence.

Monrogh unified a majority of the disgruntled Elmali in Old Sartar. His influence did not extend into Heortland or Esrolia.

 

3 hours ago, daskindt said:

However, the current draft of Gods of Glorantha does not seem to support this interpretation. It relegates the worship of Elmal to just a handful of communities in Sartar, which doesn’t make much sense to me based upon all the previously published materials.

King of Dragon Pass plays in Quivinela from 1330-1492, whereas Monrogh rallied the disgruntled Elmali around 1550 to his revelation of the Many Suns.

It is possible that two generations of greater peace in Sartar eroded away the importance of the guardians of the stead/tula while still providing the "villains" in all the quests and rites which require a hostile representant of the sun. Much prestige and influence was lost, and the sun worshippers were unhappy enough that violence was about to break out. Tarkalor and Monrogh funneled that away from interior conflict in Sartar towards a campaign of conquest of Vanntar and liberation of Whitewall from Kitori domination.

 

3 hours ago, daskindt said:

Is there published material on Heortland and any other Orlanthi communities comprised of Heortlings, other than Sartar, where we get a better sense of how the various Orlanthi cults have been surviving? Circumstances that explain why the Heortlings in places other than Sartar would have abandoned the traditional Elmal cult?

There are lists of deities worshipped in Nochet, where Elmal may be known as Harono when Harono is not identified with Yelm (inferred from Esrolia, Land of 10k Goddesses), and Thunder Rebels/Storm Tribe inform us that Esrolia has rites wherein Elmal and Heler compete for the role of the year husband of Esrola.

Yelmalio is regarded as a continuation of Palangio's cult, and is far from popular in Esrolia, which means that there is little to suggest that Monrogh's conversion may have caught momentum in Esrolia. The Orlanthi west of Esrolia are mostly known for their raiders, although the Ditali get raided from both sides, and may be more strongly invested in defensive warfare, something the Elmali have a mythical advantage for.

Heortland is where the folk who settled Runegate and much of the rest of Old Sartar came from. The changes wrought by Belintar may have affected Elmali less adversely than Orlanth-worshippers, which makes a good case for a pre-Monrogh prevalence of Elmali in the clans there. South of Jansholm, the likelihood of meeting trolls in the wild is rather low. Dealing with the scorpionfolk of the Queendom of Jab doesn't really call for close order hoplites, but may have a good use for horsemen.

4 hours ago, daskindt said:

The question I have again here though is why do we still see the Orlanthi calling Elmal the sun in various sources while they label Lightfore Yelmalio?

What is the Egyptian name of the sun and its deity? Did the Greek look towards Helios or towards Apollo?

The Orlanthi call the sun Yelm much of the time, as a conquered and tentatively befriended enemy. When they pray for solar blessings, they pray to Elmal, the friendly sun, the foreigner who has become kin.

 

4 hours ago, daskindt said:

It seems like while the sun was extinguished, Elmal was the light in the sky that is now associated with Lightfore, but I get the impression that the sun at the Dawning became Elmal again for the Heortlings. Is this inaccurate?

I don't know what exactly Lightfore was up to in the Greater Darkness and the Gray Age. There was Kargzant running around unbridled, but I have no idea whether this was what Lightfore did. The Perfect Sky document doesn't really give any conclusive information.

 

[Grievous]

There's a few topics in Glorantha which have some frustrating details, but the Yelmalio-Elmal thing is thoroughly confusing on a meta-play level. I have no idea how to properly use Yelmalio (or to a lesser extent post-Monrogh Elmal) in my campaigns. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

The soul and the shadow are different things. It is the lower soul, yes, the part that goes into the underworld - but it is different to Kazkurtum, the shadow. Bijiif isn't particularly tyrannical or arbitrary - just impotent and dead. Kazkurtum, the shadow, is the absense of rule.

Yeah, in the Glorious Reascent of Yelm, Bijiif is the "warmth portion" of Yelm's soul, and the part that goes to the underworld when Yelm disintegrated/was killed. He may have been reunited with the other parts later at the Dawn, but I seem to recall from somewhere that he is also a ruler of the DH afterlife. I could be wrong on that latter one, though.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Sir_Godspeed

[Grievous]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

In Lunar parlance, the Nysalor part would be the Seventh part, the greater consciousness. 

Hmm, this is interesting and seems to make sense. 

I wonder about Yelm, though. He seems to have become Illuminated in the Underworld, when he realizes that he is one-among-the-many. That part doesn't really jive with Nysalor. One wonders if his Death severed the Illumination away from him, to become (the then lost) Nysalor. He doesn't really appear all that Illuminated before, though (one could attribute that to Dayzatar, his more transcendent brother). The God Project then sought to bring this lost fragment back, to bring rejuvenation to the Sky pantheon. But if the Illumination was not severed (or - that is to say - if he wasn't Illuminated to begin with), then from where did they find Nysalor? Is he a sort of Yelm-who-could-have-been, kind of like She Who Waits? And - to digress horrendously - what did the Pseudocosmic Egg have to do with it? 

Don't have my GRoY on hand to look into that for references to any of this, alas.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Grievous

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Grievous said:

There's a few topics in Glorantha which have some frustrating details, but the Yelmalio-Elmal thing is thoroughly confusing on a meta-play level. I have no idea how to properly use Yelmalio (or to a lesser extent post-Monrogh Elmal) in my campaigns. 

Yelmalio in Kerofinela is so new that I suspect people in a lot of campaigns are still arguing the details at least as passionately as we do. It's the Hero Wars.

I will say that either every trans-regional deity needs to aspire to this level of complication or else we're in a situation where a minor upland cult appears to be an order of magnitude deeper and "more realistic" than the imperial Lunar Revelation itself. Either everybody is as weird as this or nobody needs to be. There's no intrinsic reason this particular religion needs to monopolize all the complexities you want in your game.

This disparity happens sometimes in real world religious studies but it's often an accident of how the sources are preserved. Maybe there's an archive of Yelmalite texts safe in some Sun Dome that comes down to us from the Hero Wars period whereas survival of key Lunar (for example) material is mostly limited to the unfinished books we have. Meanwhile other extremely complex cults like the Lodrilites and Shargashites are awaiting better archaeology and/or translation.

But until it happens Yelmal is going to be as complicated as someone's game wants it to be. If someone cares about these things, the intricacies can eat up a lot of play time. If they don't, these are those guys with the spears who have their own religion and their own complicated internal debates . . . which we never have to worry about because the players never spend a lot of time in their temples. 

Maybe "Orlanth" is the really weird one and parties who travel the world following the weather will discover a confusion of storms. But right now in Sartar this is practically unspeakable. They need the Orlanth who came back from the Windstop to be consistent right now. They don't have much else left to lose.

[Joerg]

16 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Yelmalio in Kerofinela is so new that I suspect people in a lot of campaigns are still arguing the details at least as passionately as we do. It's the Hero Wars.

Sorry to disagree, but Goldedge was founded as a Sun Dome Temple, and the Dinacoli and Princeros probably already were Yelmalians when entering Dragon Pass from the north.

Tribal sun worshippers are most likely in these two northern tribes and in the Colymar (Runegate).

Tribal Yelmalians are rare south of the Creek, and moderately normal north of it. Elmali dominate south of the Creek and in Kethaela, except for Sun Dome County.

16 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I will say that either every trans-regional deity needs to aspire to this level of complication or else we're in a situation where a minor upland cult appears to be an order of magnitude deeper and "more realistic" than the imperial Lunar Revelation itself. Either everybody is as weird as this or nobody needs to be. There's no intrinsic reason this particular religion needs to monopolize all the complexities you want in your game.

There is the "problem" of the interchangeability of Orlanth and Barntar, too. Ernalda, Esrola, the other five sisters of Esrolia are another bunch of unclear relationships.

 

16 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This disparity happens sometimes in real world religious studies but it's often an accident of how the sources are preserved. Maybe there's an archive of Yelmalite texts safe in some Sun Dome that comes down to us from the Hero Wars period whereas survival of key Lunar (for example) material is mostly limited to the unfinished books we have. Meanwhile other extremely complex cults like the Lodrilites and Shargashites are awaiting better archaeology and/or translation.

But until it happens Yelmal is going to be as complicated as someone's game wants it to be. If someone cares about these things, the intricacies can eat up a lot of play time. If they don't, these are those guys with the spears who have their own religion and their own complicated internal debates . . . which we never have to worry about because the players never spend a lot of time in their temples. 

Maybe "Orlanth" is the really weird one and parties who travel the world following the weather will discover a confusion of storms. But right now in Sartar this is practically unspeakable. They need the Orlanth who came back from the Windstop to be consistent right now. They don't have much else left to lose.

Yeah. All those Barntar initiates...

[scott-martin]

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sorry to disagree, but Goldedge was founded as a Sun Dome Temple, and the Dinacoli and Princeros probably already were Yelmalians when entering Dragon Pass from the north.

 

I hear you! Spear people keep coming and going. My comment only applies to the 1550 "syncretic revelation" version . . . those dislocations are practically within living memory for some people.

On the other hand half the time I suspect "Harano" is the Esrolian sun god (himself an import from the mysterious west) and Barntar's real dad is another blue god so we know how trustworthy I am.

[Akhôrahil]

On 8/25/2018 at 9:08 PM, M Helsdon said:

A bit like the real world, where there were numerous sun-gods and goddesses - a subset of just the European ones: Alaunus, Albina, Alectrona, Apollo, Aurora, Belenos, Dažbog, Eos, Helios, Hors, Neaera, Neto, Saulė, Sól, Sunna, Thesan, Usil.

8-)

I'm sure the God Learners would have proven that most of those were the same god.

Then switched two of the remaining ones for shit and giggles.

[JonL]

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yeah. All those Barntar initiates...

I expect there ought to be rather a lot of them in-setting, just under-represented among PCs (adventurers generally being the ones who don't stick around to be farmers), whereas Yelmalio is a pretty niche religious figure in-setting outside of specific cult centers - but is comparatively over-represented among PCs for meta-game historical reasons (Rurik, Prax/Pavis, Sun County, Griffin Mountain...)

I wonder if the reason you see Yelmalio pop up in places where it's a poor cultural fit (Nochet? Really?) or places like Fronela & Ralios that haven't had any cultural contact with the main cultic centers since Nysalor's time is to some degree the meta-game historical need for a cult so popular and well known with the player base to have a temple available for training and rune-spell needs without trekking halfway across the continent. 

I do hope some future setting resources detail how the cult in places like Nochet & Fronela (and most of Sartar, for that matter) differ from the practices in Vanntar & Prax.  It has been alluded to by Jeff in this very thread that they differ, but we haven't seen much about how. I can't imagine the Grandmothers in Nochet tolerating hardcore patriarchy, for example. I am also curious as to just how the mandatory challenge protocol between Rune Lords of Orlanth & Yelmalio works at a practical level in Sartar. I suppose a lot of Issaries followers get used as intermediaries to avoid basic day-to-day neighbor relations getting derailed by contests & duels between leaders.

Edited August 28, 2018 by JonL

[Ian Cooper]

11 hours ago, daskindt said:

The question I have again here though is why do we still see the Orlanthi calling Elmal the sun in various sources while they label Lightfore Yelmalio?

It seems like while the sun was extinguished, Elmal was the light in the sky that is now associated with Lightfore, but I get the impression that the sun at the Dawning became Elmal again for the Heortlings. Is this inaccurate?

I think "it's complicated" and interestingly I think the Dara Happans have the same issue with Antirius. Is he Lightfore still, or part of the Sun now?

Orlanthi myth has him as taking the Torch into the Sky, when Orlanth returns at the Dawn. So I don't think he is the Sun, but he is the torchbearer for the Sun. Which fits with Lightfore. But I think that Orlanthi don't pray to the torch, they pray to the torchbearer. So a prayer to the Sun goes to Elmal, even though Elmal is not the Sun.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, JonL said:

I expect there ought to be rather a lot of them in-setting, just under-represented among PCs (adventurers generally being the ones who don't stick around to be farmers), whereas Yelmalio is a pretty niche religious figure in-setting outside of specific cult centers - but is comparatively over-represented among PCs for meta-game historical reasons (Rurik, Prax/Pavis, Sun County, Griffin Mountain...)

My point was rather that there is a population of Orlanth and Barntar initiates which make up 85% of the male initiates among the Orlanthi. Most of the time they attend the services interchangeably. When you become a godtalker, you will probably have to make clear whether you're Barntar or one of the Orlanth aspects. When under oppressive rule (like e.g. the Vendref), people worship Barntar (until they rebel).

 

1 hour ago, JonL said:

I wonder if the reason you see Yelmalio pop up in places where it's a poor cultural fit (Nochet? Really?) or places like Fronela & Ralios that haven't had any cultural contact with the main cultic centers since Nysalor's time is to some degree the meta-game historical need for a cult so popular and well known with the player base to have a temple available for training and rune-spell needs without trekking halfway across the continent. 

I blame Palangio being the Warlord of the Bright Empire for both the Janubian and the Ralian presence, although the Ralian temple(s?)s may also have been established by the EWF.

Nochet attracts all manner of folk that don't belong there, including Vadeli, Kralori, Fonritians... and Yelmalians do have a mercenary branch, and will have mercenary halls with their lesser temples everywhere, even where they aren't that popular. Perhaps especially there.

1 hour ago, JonL said:

I do hope some future setting resources detail how the cult in places like Nochet & Fronela (and most of Sartar, for that matter) differ from the practices in Vanntar & Prax.  It has been alluded to by Jeff in this very thread that they differ, but we haven't seen much about how.

I made my suggestions for tribal Yelmalians already during the first Elmal-Yelmalio debate, and I haven't seen much to alter my position. Neither rural clans nor Kerofinelan cities really field trained hoplites. The wealthiest tribal Yelmalians may own the equivalent of a set of hoplite armor, but they will be trained as champions or bodyguards rather than as phalangists.

1 hour ago, JonL said:

I can't imagine the Grandmothers in Nochet tolerating hardcore patriarchy, for example.

It is pretty clear that they do - there are even some places which still follow the Adjustment to normal Heortling more or less equal roles, patrilocal marriages etc. in southern Esrolia. The Sartarite houses in northeastern Nochet don't normally practice matrilocal marriages among themselves, although they may do so reciprocally when marrying to local Esrolian houses.

1 hour ago, JonL said:

I am also curious as to just how the mandatory challenge protocol between Rune Lords of Orlanth & Yelmalio works at a practical level in Sartar. I suppose a lot of Issaries followers get used as intermediaries to avoid basic day-to-day neighbor relations getting derailed by contests & duels between leaders.

I see a lot of the same tone that Zero had with Barna Zak, the werewolf resident of the Nochet underworld.

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm sure the God Learners would have proven that most of those were the same god.

A number of terrestrial sun gods weren't just associated with the Sun, but with Venus (as the bright morning and evening star, not as the planet associated with Aphrodite, Venus, Ishtar etc.) This is a parallel with Lightfore which Greg doubtless knew of.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Neither rural clans nor Kerofinelan cities really field trained hoplites. The wealthiest tribal Yelmalians may own the equivalent of a set of hoplite armor, but they will be trained as champions or bodyguards rather than as phalangists.

In Kerofinela, the cities/temples of Goldedge and Vanntar raise regiments of phalangites: Goldedge raises one regiment which serves in the Tarsh Provincial Army; Vanntar supports two regiments - one available for mercenary hire, and the other overseeing the Ergeshi helots. These regiments wear lacquered leather/linen armor (which happens to be what most Macedonian phalangites wore: a linothorax of linen or composite manufacture is sufficient). Officers might wear bronze...

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, JonL said:

I wonder if the reason you see Yelmalio pop up in places where it's a poor cultural fit (Nochet? Really?) or places like Fronela & Ralios that haven't had any cultural contact with the main cultic centers since Nysalor's time is to some degree the meta-game historical need for a cult so popular and well known with the player base to have a temple available for training and rune-spell needs without trekking halfway across the continent. 

Vanntar is astride a trade route to Nochet, and given the migration and increase in the population of the city since the Opening, it isn't surprising that many Yelmalions have found there way there in sufficient numbers to populate the part of the city known as Little Vanntar.

The position of the temples in Ralios and Fronela mark borders where the Templars were employed and have found employment since the First Age. They probably differ significantly in traditions and culture from the more central temple cities, but such survivals aren't improbable... Whilst many of the Alexandrias founded by Alexander in the east didn't last very long in some cases, they left a cultural and religious imprint that lasted a very long time.

Edited August 28, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

In Kerofinela, the cities/temples of Goldedge and Vanntar raise regiments of phalangites: Goldedge raises one regiment which serves in the Tarsh Provincial Army;

The context of my statement was that the Sun Dome temples do field hoplites. Goldedge is a special case as it is a combination of a city and a Sun Dome Temple. Vanntar is a Sun Dome Temple first and only in a very secondary role a city. Cities like Furthest, Alda-chur, Bagnot, Jonstown or Boldhome don't field any native phalanxes. Some of these places still have sizable numbers of Yelmalians.

26 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Vanntar is astride a trade route to Nochet, and given the migration and increase in the population of the city since the Opening, it isn't surprising that many Yelmalions have found there way there in sufficient numbers to populate the part of the city known as Little Vanntar.. 

The main Nochet trade passing through Beast Valley is on the river boats piloted by durulz. I don't see any indication of overland traffic through Beast Valley. Road traffic goes either through the Grazelands or through Volsaxiland to the royal highway to Wilmskirk, passing east of Sun Dome County. "astride a trade route" is a bit of a hyperbole.

A half-strength regiment with family members and some support infrastructure would provide enough population to name a quarter in Nochet, even if the majority of the templars may be absent from the city on various duties.

 

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The context of my statement was that the Sun Dome temples do field hoplites.

But not what you said... Do you believe that all the phalangites mustered at Vanntar or Goldedge live in those places? Most recruits will be drawn from the surrounding rural clans.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Neither rural clans nor Kerofinelan cities really field trained hoplites. The wealthiest tribal Yelmalians may own the equivalent of a set of hoplite armor, but they will be trained as champions or bodyguards rather than as phalangists.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The main Nochet trade passing through Beast Valley is on the river boats piloted by durulz. I don't see any indication of overland traffic through Beast Valley. Road traffic goes either through the Grazelands or through Volsaxiland to the royal highway to Wilmskirk, passing east of Sun Dome County. "astride a trade route" is a bit of a hyperbole.

Please note: I said a trade route... There's more than one route, and the route trade takes very much depends on where you are coming from.

Vanntar isn't far from a Royal Road heading to Karse using trade paths (running via Centaur Cross to Whitewall), and sits on an alternative route, requiring transshipment across the Mirrorsea.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

But not what you said... Do you believe that all the phalangites mustered at Vanntar or Goldedge live in those places? Most recruits will be drawn from the surrounding rural clans.

 

Actually yes, the templars are called that because they live in those garrisons. Their armor and equipment most likely is given to them upon joining the templars, as it is too expensive for a beginning mercenary to own themselves. That will change over time with plunder or pay, but if you have phalangites out there, they will be retired templars rather than aspiring ones.

Militia training in Yelmalian clans might involve some basic training in formation. Sun Dome County might actually be a breeding ground for Phalangites, with its land-holder class of former templars and their sons. There may be clans like that around Goldedge, too, but I have the impression that it is a lot less segregated from the (by now lunarized) Orlanthi around them.

There won't be any militia hoplites forming whole files like in Athens anywhere but at Sun Dome Temples, and a lot of those milita will be retired mercenaries and possibly their offspring.

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Please note: I said a trade route... There's more than one route, and the route trade takes very much depends on where you are coming from.

Yes, and the royal highways provide the best transportation in eastern Kerofinela, with limited tolls to boot. Look at what became of towns on route 66 with the highway system taking on all the traffic. The trade going into Sun Dome County is meant for that place, and rather rarely transit goods will be carried that way, and only on mixed deliveries of the caravan. The roads are a far cry from what the royal highway offers, so travel through Vanntar takes about twice as long as via Wilmskirk, and you have to cross the Stream at fords rather than at bridges, and other minor rivers as well. The only reason to travel through Sun Dome County (other than having a place to go there) would be to avoid meeting regular travelers on the royal highway.

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Vanntar isn't far from a Royal Road heading to Karse using trade paths (running via Centaur Cross to Whitewall), and sits on an alternative route, requiring transshipment across the Mirrorsea.

Either route to Nochet requires some water transport for part of the distance, whether from Duckpoint to Nochet on river craft, from Karse to Nochet on trade ships, or from Backford to Nochet via the Fish Road. The route into the Grazelands would be quite a detour past the Upland Marsh, through the Dragon Pass at the foot of Mt. Kerofin through Exile territory. River traffic (with Durulz pilots) is about the only way the Beastfolk tolerate humans crossing their lands. There is no overland route between New Crystal City and Centaur's Cross, unless there are Issaries worshippers among the centaurs (which I doubt).

The Amber Fields are mainly a barley-growing area, with possibly a few other resources, but the main trade good of the place are its mercenaries, who will take caravan duty in smaller files when there is no war to keep them occupied, and that's how they filter into a major trading place like Nochet. Karse is smaller than Nochet by a factor of 20 or so, which means that the contingent that could be upheld at Karse is smaler by that factor, too.

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Actually yes, the templars are called that because they live in those garrisons.

Oh dear. They become Templars after being recruited. The recruits will mostly be drawn from the militia, who live in the surrounding rural areas.

In the Ancient World, rural recruits were often preferred over urban recruits, as being tougher and more resilient.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Their armor and equipment most likely is given to them upon joining the templars, as it is too expensive for a beginning mercenary to own themselves.

Probably correct, save for officers.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

if you have phalangites out there, they will be retired templars rather than aspiring ones.

The Templars are phalangites...

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Militia training in Yelmalian clans might involve some basic training in formation. Sun Dome County might actually be a breeding ground for Phalangites, with its land-holder class of former templars and their sons. There may be clans like that around Goldedge, too, but I have the impression that it is a lot less segregated from the (by now lunarized) Orlanthi around them.

Militia training by spearmen has to involve training in basic formations. The militia don't just patrol and train, but are a likely source of auxiliaries. A hoplite or phalangite phalanx is very vulnerable on its flanks, and these are usually protected by lighter armed troops.

Serving in the militia is a training step to becoming a phalangite, providing basic training.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

There won't be any militia hoplites forming whole files like in Athens anywhere but at Sun Dome Temples, and a lot of those milita will be retired mercenaries and possibly their offspring.

Each militia unit consists of files (even their patrols are formed of files and half-files), and in wartime they form a citizen levy which fights in a phalanx, probably deployed upon the flanks of the phalangite phalanx, or, for those who are archers, as skirmishers.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes, and the royal highways provide the best transportation in eastern Kerofinela, with limited tolls to boot. Look at what became of towns on route 66 with the highway system taking on all the traffic. The trade going into Sun Dome County is meant for that place, and rather rarely transit goods will be carried that way, and only on mixed deliveries of the caravan. The roads are a far cry from what the royal highway offers, so travel through Vanntar takes about twice as long as via Wilmskirk, and you have to cross the Stream at fords rather than at bridges, and other minor rivers as well. The only reason to travel through Sun Dome County (other than having a place to go there) would be to avoid meeting regular travelers on the royal highway.

When the Creek-Stream River is in flood after the thaw, whilst it will be a trade route downstream (with some additional risks as there will be flotsam being washed downstream), upstream travel will be much more difficult and very slow. Early in the season, road travel north will be more practical. Road usage will vary by season.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Either route to Nochet requires some water transport for part of the distance, whether from Duckpoint to Nochet on river craft, from Karse to Nochet on trade ships, or from Backford to Nochet via the Fish Road. The route into the Grazelands would be quite a detour past the Upland Marsh, through the Dragon Pass at the foot of Mt. Kerofin through Exile territory. River traffic (with Durulz pilots) is about the only way the Beastfolk tolerate humans crossing their lands. There is no overland route between New Crystal City and Centaur's Cross, unless there are Issaries worshippers among the centaurs (which I doubt).

You are assuming that travel conditions are not affected by weather or season.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Amber Fields are mainly a barley-growing area, with possibly a few other resources, but the main trade good of the place are its mercenaries, who will take caravan duty in smaller files when there is no war to keep them occupied, and that's how they filter into a major trading place like Nochet. Karse is smaller than Nochet by a factor of 20 or so, which means that the contingent that could be upheld at Karse is smaler by that factor, too.

Karse has quite a hinterland, and as noted above, travel conditions are not a constant.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Oh dear. They become Templars after being recruited. The recruits will mostly be drawn from the militia, who live in the surrounding rural areas.

The surrounding rural areas of Vanntar are known as Sun Dome County, managed by a landholder/slaveholder warrior caste. The case of Goldedge might be more difficult and interesting.

 

 

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

In the Ancient World, rural recruits were often preferred over urban recruits, as being tougher and more resilient.

If I look at the recruitment of Greek hoplites, those were recruited from the "urban" landholder class who had managers out there making sure that their olive plantations and wineries were operated with acceptable profit by slaves and lower class peasants. None of these peasants could aspire to become part of the hoplites of Athens or similar cities. Sparta prided itself for a less urban culture, so there your assertion might be correct.

If you are talking about recruitment for the Roman legions or the Macedon phalanx, you may be right about that kind of recruitment. That's definitely way outside of the "Bronze Age" envelope that we are using for Dragon Pass, though. (Even republican Athens is way beyond that, but that's the culture which gave us hoplites.)

 

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Templars are phalangites...

Indeed. The phalangites are the Templars. Everyone else is spear militia.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Militia training by spearmen has to involve training in basic formations.

Form a line or three. March forward. Stand and hold. Run like hell.

Are there any other spearman maneuvers you think that hillfolk militia may perform?

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The militia don't just patrol and train, but are a likely source of auxiliaries. A hoplite or phalangite phalanx is very vulnerable on its flanks, and these are usually protected by lighter armed troops.

No disagreement here. Auxilia are a very different type of troops, with generally way lower standards of formal training and discipline, occasionally made up for by ethnic warrior traditions.

The tribal Yelmalians that I keep touting do fill such auxilary roles quite well, and likely with better discipline than any other Orlanthi body of warriors (other than Humakti regiments or templars). But they are not phalangites unless they have undergone a serious amount of templar training, and that is available only in the Sun Dome temples or possibly when joining a regiment of templars operating elsewhere for a longer period.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Serving in the militia is a training step to becoming a phalangite, providing basic training.

Form a line or three. March forward. Stand and hold. Run like hell. (Yes, that's a repeat.)

A lot better than nothing, but not even remotely sufficient to form up in the rear ranks of a phalanx.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Each militia unit consists of files (even their patrols are formed of files and half-files), and in wartime they form a citizen levy which fights in a phalanx, probably deployed upon the flanks of the phalangite phalanx, or, for those who are archers, as skirmishers.

True in Sun Dome County and probably in the direct neighborhood of Goldedge.

If a citizen militia manages to form a phalanx-like formation, that's mainly thanks to veterans too old for active templar duty and their sons prepared for a fast track in the templars when they become old enough. Letting anyone else form up in a phalanx is a surefire way to let that phalanx disintegrate into a milling chaos of footmen out of step and without any idea where they should be at that moment as soon as the wannabe phalanx starts moving into the vicinity of a foe.

Flankers, skirmishers and archers: yes. Ersatz-phalanx: useless except for show of numbers, if you can keep them from revealing their ineptness.

 

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

When the Creek-Stream River is in flood after the thaw, whilst it will be a trade route downstream (with some additional risks as there will be flotsam being washed downstream), upstream travel will be much more difficult and very slow.

The flotsam from River and Creek will clog up in the Upland Marsh, only the stuff carried down the Stream has a chance to float past Duck Point.

The River is the single most powerful waterway in the Inner World, carrying half the water that flows upwards into the Sky World on Lorion's river. Additional precipitation and snow melt will add to that guaranteed amount, and may fan out into the valley bottoms.

Upriver travel is always a struggle manageable only by navigating the active (upriver-heading) divine portions of the river. I think of this river traffic as managing river craft up a whitewater, where you hop on the local counter-currents - similar to how the replica of Tim Severin's trentaconter Argo managed the passage through the Bosporus in the 1980ies.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Early in the season, road travel north will be more practical. Road usage will vary by season.

Early in sea season, upriver goods would be stuff transshipped from overseas deliveries. Few of those, too - only the Vadeli and the desperate are known to sail in Storm Season. Most reasonable captains sit these seasons out in friendly ports.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

You are assuming that travel conditions are not affected by weather or season.

I was commenting on optimal travel weather. You can add hardships however much you want, making the royal roads stand out even more. When you cannot travel the royal roads any more, only heroic travel is possible anywhere else (like the march of the Birkebeiners).

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Karse has quite a hinterland, and as noted above, travel conditions are not a constant.

I have done quite a bit on Karse, including its economic situation. While the wiki provider that I used has folded, I managed to save it to my harddisk, waiting for some time to get a wiki on my own domain running to set it up again and to continue my work on that.

Karse has the former River estuary and Suchara Vale as hinterland, as well as the durulz- and newtling inhabited wetlands on the opposite bank of the Marzeel estuary, and stuff barged in from outside of the control of the ruler (baron?) of Karse down the Marzeel river from Volsaxar and the Bacofi. There are no trade paths up and down the cliff - the land atop the cliff is hinterland to Jansholm, not Karse. The Solthi estuary is hinterland to Jansholm, too.

Suchara Valley is the only agricultural land anywhere near Karse with acceptable transport ways. Otherwise it is easier to ship in grain from Nochet, Rhigos or the Heortland ports.

Seafood and river fishing plays a major role for the food supply in Karse, and stuff grown and gathered by the non-humans in the wetlands.

Karse does provide the best trade route north into Dragon Pass. The road alongside the Marzeel estuary is fairly good, and river barges will carry bulk all the way up to Smithstone. Mid-Sea Season will see the great lumber floats going down the Marzeel to feed the ever-hungry shipyards of Karse with wood for keels, planks, masts, oars and ribs. The float workers will be available as personnel for upriver transport before the float season, teaming up with the lumberjacks and ship-builders who have been harvesting the best wood throughout Storm Season. After this initial rush of downriver traffic, barges upriver will be available again.

Road travel through Volsaxiland is less comfortable until you reach Whitewall, from where Tarkalor's road connects with the Sartar royal highway network that runs all the way to Dwarf Ford. Only late Dark Season and early Storm Season may block this road with snow-drifts, and with Sartarite royal magic re-instituted that may be a lot less of a problem than under Lunar management despite Fazzur's best efforts. This route is the fastest overland connection from Kethaela to Saird. The Grazeland route to North Esrolia is shorter but takes slightly longer, and is used mainly by merchants who also deal with Bagnot, Dunstop and the Grazer trade posts before transshipping to river barges at Furthest. The Runegate-Wintertop route makes side trades in eastern upland Tarsh, but has less road quality. Road conditions become acceptable only in Fire Season and deteriorate rapidly with the onset of Dark Season. Military expeditions along this route often prepare significant stretches of corduroy roads for the campaign.

None of these routes have anything to gain by entering Sun Dome County. It is almost like Caernarfon or Bangor to the M1.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

If I look at the recruitment of Greek hoplites, those were recruited from the "urban" landholder class who had managers out there making sure that their olive plantations and wineries were operated with acceptable profit by slaves and lower class peasants. None of these peasants could aspire to become part of the hoplites of Athens or similar cities. Sparta prided itself for a less urban culture, so there your assertion might be correct.

If you are talking about recruitment for the Roman legions or the Macedon phalanx, you may be right about that kind of recruitment. That's definitely way outside of the "Bronze Age" envelope that we are using for Dragon Pass, though. (Even republican Athens is way beyond that, but that's the culture which gave us hoplites.)

Both Greek hoplites (Athenian, Spartan, Theban etc.), Macedonian phalangites and Roman legionaries (both pre- and post-Marius) are way outside of the "Bronze Age" envelope. However, Glorantha has hoplites, phalangites, and even soldiers who fight a little like legionaries (though not in cohorts or maniples). In fact the presence of regimental units is distinctly not Bronze Age, except perhaps in Bronze Age China.

If you think the Greek hoplites were an urban landowner class, you really need to read up on the topic.

I'm not particularly interested in a is Glorantha Bronze Age or not debate, when it comes to military matters, because it's the sort of absolutist pedantism that contributes nothing to the world or its discussion -- but I would note that in the Bronze Age Near East, soldiers were mostly recruited from the rural populations around a urban center, because most of the urban centers simply weren't that big.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Indeed. The phalangites are the Templars. Everyone else is spear militia.

Form a line or three. March forward. Stand and hold. Run like hell.

Are there any other spearman maneuvers you think that hillfolk militia may perform?

Hillfolk? Yelmalio Temples are mostly located to defend lowland farmers, at least in Saird, Vanntar and Prax. Yelmalion militia in any significant battle fight in their files and half-files, alongside other militia files, in a phalanx.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The tribal Yelmalians that I keep touting do fill such auxilary roles quite well, and likely with better discipline than any other Orlanthi body of warriors (other than Humakti regiments or templars). But they are not phalangites unless they have undergone a serious amount of templar training, and that is available only in the Sun Dome temples or possibly when joining a regiment of templars operating elsewhere for a longer period.

That's a very different topic, as there are Yelmalions out in the wilds who would not fight in a phalanx. In such areas, they are more likely to fight as skirmishers: as archers and javelin throwers, but I'm not referring to the Yelmalions in Far Place.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

If a citizen militia manages to form a phalanx-like formation, that's mainly thanks to veterans too old for active templar duty and their sons prepared for a fast track in the templars when they become old enough. Letting anyone else form up in a phalanx is a surefire way to let that phalanx disintegrate into a milling chaos of footmen out of step and without any idea where they should be at that moment as soon as the wannabe phalanx starts moving into the vicinity of a foe.

Actually, a basic phalanx requires relatively little training. Most Greek hoplites (other than the Spartans and those who made a career as mercenaries overseas where the pay was much better than being a mercenary in Greece) underwent very little training compared with later phalangites and legionaries. What it needed was for every man to know his place in the file, he has neighbors to either side in their files, and the formation has strong cohesion moving forward or engaged.

it's one of the reasons why a phalanx is a very basic formation, probably going back to the earliest citizen-soldier armies in Sumer.

If flanked or pushed back a phalanx was in trouble, and it took the Greeks some nasty lessons to realize the benefits of light infantry and cavalry - there always were poorer (who fought as skirmishers) or richer (who could afford a horse and its upkeep) but neither were major components of polis warfare, until relatively late.

In the canon Gloranthan army lists you will find hoplites (but not in the sense of Greek citizen-soldiers, but professionals), phalangites, peltasts and hypaspists (the latter not in the Homeric sense but in the Macedonian).

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The flotsam from River and Creek will clog up in the Upland Marsh, only the stuff carried down the Stream has a chance to float past Duck Point.

The River is the single most powerful waterway in the Inner World, carrying half the water that flows upwards into the Sky World on Lorion's river. Additional precipitation and snow melt will add to that guaranteed amount, and may fan out into the valley bottoms.

The flow will be sufficient to wash debris out of the marsh; it may be last year's (or the year before that) flotsam, but it will still be a hazard. If you've seen a dead tree swept downstream (and there are surely plently of those in the Upland Marsh) you'd know just how dangerous they can be.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The River is the single most powerful waterway in the Inner World, carrying half the water that flows upwards into the Sky World on Lorion's river. Additional precipitation and snow melt will add to that guaranteed amount, and may fan out into the valley bottoms.

And such a flood will take weeks to dissipate.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Karse does provide the best trade route north into Dragon Pass. The road alongside the Marzeel estuary is fairly good, and river barges will carry bulk all the way up to Smithstone. Mid-Sea Season will see the great lumber floats going down the Marzeel to feed the ever-hungry shipyards of Karse with wood for keels, planks, masts, oars and ribs. The float workers will be available as personnel for upriver transport before the float season, teaming up with the lumberjacks and ship-builders who have been harvesting the best wood throughout Storm Season. After this initial rush of downriver traffic, barges upriver will be available again.

Road travel through Volsaxiland is less comfortable until you reach Whitewall, from where Tarkalor's road connects with the Sartar royal highway network that runs all the way to Dwarf Ford. Only late Dark Season and early Storm Season may block this road with snow-drifts, and with Sartarite royal magic re-instituted that may be a lot less of a problem than under Lunar management despite Fazzur's best efforts. This route is the fastest overland connection from Kethaela to Saird. The Grazeland route to North Esrolia is shorter but takes slightly longer, and is used mainly by merchants who also deal with Bagnot, Dunstop and the Grazer trade posts before transshipping to river barges at Furthest. The Runegate-Wintertop route makes side trades in eastern upland Tarsh, but has less road quality. Road conditions become acceptable only in Fire Season and deteriorate rapidly with the onset of Dark Season. Military expeditions along this route often prepare significant stretches of corduroy roads for the campaign.

You've just proven my point.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

None of these routes have anything to gain by entering Sun Dome County. It is almost like Caernarfon or Bangor to the M1.

Yet Vanntar lies upon a trade path (in your terms B roads).  Caernarfon and Bangor connect to the M1 by the A55 which is mostly a dual carriageway...

Edited August 29, 2018 by M Helsdon

[scott-martin]

The dumbest question:

If the religion was the "Light" bringers because they were encouraged to go out and light up the rest of the world, and if we call them the "Theyalans" because they bring the Dawn and if Heort had the heart of a "star" and if he died by lightning fighting the storm, what's the functional difference between them and some archaic expression of what becomes the Elmal complex? What faith did they actually spread . . . and what origin might Starbrow's sages have thought they were tapping into?

 

[M Helsdon]

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The dumbest question:

If the religion was the "Light" bringers because they were encouraged to go out and light up the rest of the world, and if we call them the "Theyalans" because they bring the Dawn and if Heort had the heart of a "star" and if he died by lightning fighting the storm, what's the functional difference between them and some archaic expression of what becomes the Elmal complex? What faith did they actually spread . . . and what origin might Starbrow's sages have thought they were tapping into?

There's quite a bit of overlap between the Solar and Storm pantheons: Chalana Arroy/White Lady, Rigsdal/Polaris, and perhaps Yelmalio/Elmal, and probably others as well. The pantheons as viewed by the two human cultures are distinct in outlook (Solar: hierarchal leaders, Storm: chosen leaders)... but then both cultures may only perceive aspects of their deities, not the entirety, because the gods are just so big...

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Both Greek hoplites (Athenian, Spartan, Theban etc.), Macedonian phalangites and Roman legionaries (both pre- and post-Marius) are way outside of the "Bronze Age" envelope. However, Glorantha has hoplites, phalangites, and even soldiers who fight a little like legionaries (though not in cohorts or maniples). In fact the presence of regimental units is distinctly not Bronze Age, except perhaps in Bronze Age China.

Glorantha does have phalangites. Among the Orlanthi, the phalangites are the Sun Dome Templars, otherwise combat in the phalanx isn't suited to their magics.

The Orlanthi may have different shock formations than a phalanx, e.g. the hogshead formation used in Germanic warfare to break an enemy shieldwall (the typical close-order formation that almost provides the advantages of a phalanx, except for forward momentum), or flying and leaping feats.

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I'm not particularly interested in a is Glorantha Bronze Age or not debate, when it comes to military matters, because it's the sort of absolutist pedantism that contributes nothing to the world or its discussion

Having the cake and eating it...

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

-- but I would note that in the Bronze Age Near East, soldiers were mostly recruited from the rural populations around a urban center, because most of the urban centers simply weren't that big.

We're talking city states here, with the rural backdrop firmly tied to the city.

 

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Hillfolk? Yelmalio Temples are mostly located to defend lowland farmers, at least in Saird, Vanntar and Prax. Yelmalion militia in any significant battle fight in their files and half-files, alongside other militia files, in a phalanx.

Vanntar is located in a rather broad valley in the hills of Dragon Pass, so: hillfolk.

 

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

That's a very different topic, as there are Yelmalions out in the wilds who would not fight in a phalanx. In such areas, they are more likely to fight as skirmishers: as archers and javelin throwers, but I'm not referring to the Yelmalions in Far Place.

I was referring to the non-urban Yelmalions in rural Tarsh around Goldedge, who are hardly different from their Far Place cousins. You have temple lands, which include rural area and the urban part of the temple, and you have normal tribal lands around them. People living on temple lands may be organized along the same rules as shown in Sun County. People from the surrounding clans are clansmen first and Yelmalions second, meaning no file training except maybe during temple duty.

A disorganized phalanx is a group of dead wannabe-soldiers waiting for the transition, unless their opposition is even more inept.

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Actually, a basic phalanx requires relatively little training. Most Greek hoplites (other than the Spartans and those who made a career as mercenaries overseas where the pay was much better than being a mercenary in Greece) underwent very little training compared with later phalangites and legionaries. What it needed was for every man to know his place in the file, he has neighbors to either side in their files, and the formation has strong cohesion moving forward or engaged.

Doing all that in close order - less than an arm's length from the man before you, only a few inch to the men left and right of you - with a long pole and possibly a slung shield, too, will require about as much training as those high precision marching band displays I occasionally see on youtube. Your average high-school marching band is the equivalent of militia.

 

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

it's one of the reasons why a phalanx is a very basic formation, probably going back to the earliest citizen-soldier armies in Sumer.

Sure those weren't rather shield walls or less organized formations like the Germanic hog's head?

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

In the canon Gloranthan army lists you will find hoplites (but not in the sense of Greek citizen-soldiers, but professionals), phalangites, peltasts and hypaspists (the latter not in the Homeric sense but in the Macedonian).

If I look at Daxdarius' hoplites, I see citizen soldiers turning into professionals, much like the Greek. These orderly regiments make up maybe 50% of the troops, with weird cultic groups using magical formations that don't make any sense in a mundane setting, fighting alongside beast brothers or spirits, changing shape, using exotic means of transportation or locomotion... and lots of tribal groups without even a semblance of uniform equipment or formation.
 

 

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The flow will be sufficient to wash debris out of the marsh; it may be last year's (or the year before that) flotsam, but it will still be a hazard. If you've seen a dead tree swept downstream (and there are surely plently of those in the Upland Marsh) you'd know just how dangerous they can be.

Sure. The stuff getting slowed down in the lakes or the more stagnant parts of the Marsh (at least on the edges) offers an opportunity to harvest them, without having to send lumberjacks up into the hostile hills. By next Dark Season this will be well-aged firewood or charcoal.

 

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

And such a flood will take weeks to dissipate.

In normal years two or three weeks, yes. Those fields are usually left as pasture.

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

You've just proven my point.

No. I have given the situation for traffic from Karse, taking into account seasonal variations after you chided me for only presenting optimal conditions.

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Yet Vanntar lies upon a trade path (in your terms B roads).  Caernarfon and Bangor connect to the M1 by the A55 which is mostly a dual carriageway...

With roundabouts every two miles or so, yes.

Look, there is trade going into and out of Vanntar, and most of that will be across that stretch of comparatively clear land a quarter of a mile wide and full of tracks trying to avoid the mudholes that is a B road, and which is still better than going cross country. It may be possible to use light canoes for water transport, letting a single boater handle two mule loads.

There is hardly any transit trade through Vanntar as there is no equivalent Holyhead at the end of that road, only a seasonally usable ford across the Stream which leads to the Royal Highway.

[Tindalos]

On 8/28/2018 at 3:58 PM, JonL said:

I wonder if the reason you see Yelmalio pop up in places where it's a poor cultural fit (Nochet? Really?)

I can't imagine the Grandmothers in Nochet tolerating hardcore patriarchy, for example. I am also curious as to just how the mandatory challenge protocol between Rune Lords of Orlanth & Yelmalio works at a practical level in Sartar. I suppose a lot of Issaries followers get used as intermediaries to avoid basic day-to-day neighbor relations getting derailed by contests & duels between leaders.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Grandmothers actually invited them.

Looking at the map of Nochet we can see Little Vanntar and Elmal Town are right next door to each other. It's entirely possible that prior to Monrogh, those two were part of the same larger region. (Probably incorporating Stepside and eastern Graceside.)

As the Elmali are naturally loyal to Orlanth, this would be an annoying thorn in the side of the Grandmothers, as they'd prefer Orlanth's supporters keep outside the Storm Gate.

But then there's this reborn cult, who don't have loyalty to Orlanth. They'd be a natural choice for breaking up that potential power bloc.

[jajagappa]

17 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

It wouldn't surprise me if the Grandmothers actually invited them.

Given what they previously did to the Yelmalio cult (Esrolia p.43-44), I think the Yelmalions will be very careful of what they do and don't do in Nochet.  "Orenda then fulfilled her promise to her lover, and wed him and made him King of Esrolia. His officers married priestesses, and his men married ladies. That night in their wedding beds these men were fed to Imarja. They were all murdered and set afire, or else burst into flame first and died that way."

Of course, the reason they were there was that they proved useful mercenaries in the fight to drive out the EWF.

Why invite the Yelmalions into Nochet again?  They serve as a useful check against the hordes of Sartarite/Heortling refugees (~20k of overall 100k+) particularly in the Sarli district where there cluster.  The Yelmalions can be used to challenge clan chiefs who get out of line, the mercenaries can be used in the wars with the western barbarians, etc.  And there are other husband deities who can help keep the Yelmalions and their patriarchal instincts in check.  And of course, the Ernalda priestesses are likely to know more stories of the days when Yelmalio was Ernalda's Husband-Protector which they can ritually invoke.

26 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

But then there's this reborn cult, who don't have loyalty to Orlanth. They'd be a natural choice for breaking up that potential power bloc.

Exactly. 🙂