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Jon Hunter

Elmal Yelmalio thing

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51 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

sons of Aether. Yelm possibly by parthenogenesis (ie. Yelmic/DH emanationism) and Umath by interaction with Gata, making them sorta half-brothers. Which makes Yelm the uncle of Orlanth, in absolute genealogical terms, though not necessarily in an acknowledged or socially relevant manner.

Love this. (I am all out of reacts for the day but will come back.)

I wonder who in Glorantha originally worshipped Aether and claimed mythic priority over both the Emperor and "Rebellus Terminus." It's hard to have it both ways unless you've found a way to mitigate the sun/storm rivalry . . . if you're invested in solar purity there's no compelling reason to proclaim Primal Fire got low and down with earth and woman at all, and on the storm side I don't see a lot of incentive to tell the tale either. Since Yelm already has a disorderly little brother it's interesting to contemplate how they might've told it once among the Lodrilites back when there was a Lodrilela. They might actually be the ones who preserve the Dayzatar story where older brother abstracts himself right out of the big picture and leaves us down here with all the good things the world has to offer.

But I'm not remembering a story of how Lodril successfully revolted against older brother or a culture who would tell it. The Umath story comes closest and in that one he never gets his bride. All his sons are bastards and all her daughters are nebulous. Call him Lodril or Turim or Turos or whoever, little brother who knows his place gets a (V)oria. 

If I didn't know to avoid saying crazy things I'd consider whether Umath is another name for what turned the gold sky blue. Call him a dragon or primal water (mysteriously absent from the oedipal drama) or the crippled (castrated) Mastakos, his lust cracked the world. Little Brother Blue conquers the sky and pushes Oldest Brother beyond the world. Sometimes he wins and sometimes he loses. Little Brother Lo falls from heaven and is found by trolls and other riff raff. 

In the generations and cultures where Little Brother Blue wins he kills the sun. 

Was it Tolat who's sometimes red and sometimes blue? 

EDIT FOR YOUR EDIT: Personally I still don't know much about how non-Lightbringer religions account for the irruption of chaos. In Dara Happa it seems to be about insubordination, possibly motivated in part by lust but generally a symptom of cosmic degeneration -- perfection is unsustainable, stick around things will get worse. For the people where Little Brother Blue won, lust is the root cause. Other Brother refused to take no for an answer and that was sin. Maybe the archaic Elmaloids focus on the violence as ultimate transgression and you ultimately get rites like Hill of Gold where everybody takes their best shot. Among the Malkionites, their story is suppressed.

 

Edited by scott-martin
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1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

 

I wonder who in Glorantha originally worshipped Aether and claimed mythic priority over both the Emperor and "Rebellus Terminus." It's hard to have it both ways unless you've found a way to mitigate the sun/storm rivalry . . . if you're invested in solar purity there's no compelling reason to proclaim Primal Fire got low and down with earth and woman at all, and on the storm side I don't see a lot of incentive to tell the tale either. Since Yelm already has a disorderly little brother it's interesting to contemplate how they might've told it once among the Lodrilites back when there was a Lodrilela. They might actually be the ones who preserve the Dayzatar story where older brother abstracts himself right out of the big picture and leaves us down here with all the good things the world has to offer.
 

Tarumath?

 

The Amalgam Deities of Nysalor's empire unite Aether and Wind. Tarumath is gone now, but Daysenerus was transformed into Tharkantus.

 

Edited by jeffjerwin
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3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, God-Learnerism thought it may be, Umath and Yelm are both supposedly sons of Aether. Yelm possibly by parthenogenesis (ie. Yelmic/DH emanationism) and Umath by interaction with Gata, making them sorta half-brothers. Which makes Yelm the uncle of Orlanth, in absolute genealogical terms, though not necessarily in an acknowledged or socially relevant manner.

Veskarthan aka Lodril shows up as one of the Evil Uncles at the Initiation of Orlanth, so the relationship is somehow acknowledged by the post-Gbaji-Wars Orlanthi.

Before the Second Council got into contact with the Jenarong-dynasty Dara Happa, I wonder whether the Heortlings had heard much about Yelm at all. They knew the Evil Emperor, somehow tied to the sun, supposedly once sitting atop the Spike in the Celestial Palace. Not very much of that points north to Dara Happa. The Esrolian sun emperor Harono fits that bill at least as much and possibly better.

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

EDIT: Although, making the killing of Yelm a kinslaying could be a mythically significant way to explain why the cosmos deteriorated, as it is a chaotic action. Indeed, possibly THE prototypical chaotic action - both in and of it iself on a basic social level, but also possibly reflexively because it was the action that started all this mess. (the other prime candidates possibly being rape, which brought the Unholy Trio together.)

In some senses, slaying the evil uncle was a kinslaying, but in the legal sense used by the Orlanthi, it was not - it was an act of violence against another tribe (clan, whatever you want to say), and thus well covered in the rules of the society.

After the dismemberment of Umath at the hands of Shargash, this act may be named the collection of a blood debt between the tribes, too.

The kinstrife that led to Chaos entering the world uncontrollably was Orlanth being unable to give justice to Thed.

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9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Veskarthan aka Lodril shows up as one of the Evil Uncles at the Initiation of Orlanth, so the relationship is somehow acknowledged by the post-Gbaji-Wars Orlanthi.

Before the Second Council got into contact with the Jenarong-dynasty Dara Happa, I wonder whether the Heortlings had heard much about Yelm at all. They knew the Evil Emperor, somehow tied to the sun, supposedly once sitting atop the Spike in the Celestial Palace. Not very much of that points north to Dara Happa. The Esrolian sun emperor Harono fits that bill at least as much and possibly better.

Harono... 'Haronon Robe Clan' was adopted as their Esrolian 'clan' by the Tharkantus-Yelmalions during the Second Age. Which means that he was acknowledged as the ancestor of Yelmalio/Tharkantus [Thark+anatyr?]. As I've argued before, Harono is connected to Halamalao, the Aldryami Sun God, who is worshipped near Esrolia at Sunelf Hill.

This - given the existence of Elmal and Yelm, suggest a proto-southern-Theyalan something like *Helamo. Hara means 'beloved' or 'husband', and a form such as Hara-Helamo might have been elided as Harono among the Esrolians. After all, Gata and Yelm had a pretty good partnership, though the next generation didn't appreciate him so much.

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Wow! Really loving the replies here. :D

I've been fascinated by the World Council-DH cultural exchange for a while now, and trying to discern the post-interchange beliefs from Gray Age beliefs, and indeed from later God Learner influences. It's a futile attempt, of course, but it *is* very fun.

Aether procreating with Gata, and how that story got preserved is an interesting point, and from what we know of DH lore it does sound odd that he would "sink" this low. But of course, their version of things is biased towards "immateriality", in a sense, and the presence of women and outside forces seems to be a nuisance at best and a disaster at the worst. I've gotten quite fond of this idea of a Lodrilela, as it were (around Lodril's mountain) - but I'm also wondering of the story in the Entekosiad might shed some light on it, especially since it, as you mentioned, is a mythology where the Lodril-equivalent doesn't really submit to Yelm in any large degree.

ViSaRuDaran is already an earthy being (I think), and thus more of a proto-Lodril/Turos kind of being, and Brightface seems more like Yelm than he does Aether, but somewhere in there, there seems to be... a place for, if nothing else... a copulation between matter and energy to produce the aroused airs, as it were. Entekos is there, of course, so it's not too much of a stretch to look for an angry male version, possibly one generation up. I know that's to some extent how the mythology starts off (matter-energy), but more of a yin-yang sense, in that to the Green/Gold age Naverians/Wendarians, matter and energy were never truly separate, and formed a unified whole rather than formerly distinct entities, I think. Or maybe I'm getting it mixed up with some types of South Indian pantheistic streaks (which I'm currently doing some research on IRL).

I don't know, it's vague and muddled to me at the moment, but I just feel like something like Umath fits in there, in a mythology that's far less unipolar and  more relational than the DH one, and also has less to prove, as it were, than the Orlanthi.


Joerg, good point on the Orlanthi acknowledging Lodril/Veskarthan/Caladra as an uncle (it's an interesting trait of the Orlanthi mythology of how inclusive it is, perhaps reflecting the highly dynamic social organization of the Orlanthi themselves, and their admitted amalgamated origins and present). And yeah, your point on how it wouldn't count as a kinslaying is also taken. It was a nice idea though, something Cain & Abel about it. :P

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14 hours ago, scott-martin said:

But I'm not remembering a story of how Lodril successfully revolted against older brother or a culture who would tell it. The Umath story comes closest and in that one he never gets his bride. All his sons are bastards and all her daughters are nebulous. Call him Lodril or Turim or Turos or whoever, little brother who knows his place gets a (V)oria. 
 

The myth of how Aether's sons were given the world has Dayzatar in the Sky, Yelm below ground and Lodril on the surface, but Yelm didn't like his share, so Lodril took the underworld and Yelm the surface world. That has two clear ramifications, it gives Yelm a place in the Underworld, whoich he took when he went to Hell, and it gives Lodril a place on the Surface World, which he took when he burst from the ground as the First Volcano.

Monster Man is also Lodril rebelling against the Bad Emperor, a Smouldering Rebellion of peasants uniting against unjust tryranny.

If I didn't know to avoid saying crazy things I'd consider whether Umath is another name for what turned the gold sky blue. Call him a dragon or primal water (mysteriously absent from the oedipal drama) or the crippled (castrated) Mastakos, his lust cracked the world. Little Brother Blue conquers the sky and pushes Oldest Brother beyond the world. Sometimes he wins and sometimes he loses. Little Brother Lo falls from heaven and is found by trolls and other riff raff. 

Sky River Titan is the God Who Turned the Sky Blue, as the Sky river is what makes the sky blue. I can't see a link between Umath and Sky River Titan myself. I like the myth that Annilla was created when Yelm touched the Styx, with the Fire, Darkness and Water mixing to create Annilla's mists, with Sky River Titan being the result of Annilla embracing Yelm. I very much doubt if it is canonical, but it made sense to me. It makes Sky River Titan the son of Yelm and, therefore, had a right to a place in the Sky.

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51 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Aether procreating with Gata, and how that story got preserved is an interesting point, and from what we know of DH lore it does sound odd that he would "sink" this low. 

Don't forget that Umath separated Sky and Earth to make a place for himself, as his first Deed. So, until then, Aether was touching Gata, so did not need to sink down. Later Solar cultures have thought of the remote Sky being far away and the Earth being close, so had the concepts of Lodril sinking down into the Earth and Dayzatar being high and aloof. It just wasn't the case until Umath broke the world.

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2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Aether procreating with Gata, and how that story got preserved is an interesting point, and from what we know of DH lore it does sound odd that he would "sink" this low.

But there is nothing between at that point, so it's hardly 'sinking low'.  Light rests upon the Earth in the earliest myths and only subsequently withdraws.

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Brightface seems more like Yelm than he does Aether

Likely he is both.  Or they are both Brightface.

16 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I wonder who in Glorantha originally worshipped Aether and claimed mythic priority over both the Emperor and "Rebellus Terminus."

The Vithelans for one.  Vith=Aether.  Then all the Luxites - all the children of the Sky Dome who filled the heavens with light (or bathed and lived in the light of Aether).

16 hours ago, scott-martin said:

if you're invested in solar purity there's no compelling reason to proclaim Primal Fire got low and down with earth and woman at all

But the fact is that the Fire did go Low and entered the Earth.  Lodril is there, in the Earth.  You either accept the reality and justify rulership over him by the Purity of the Light, or sever kinship with Fire/Lodril which you probably don't want to do.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Vithelans for one.  Vith=Aether.  Then all the Luxites - all the children of the Sky Dome who filled the heavens with light (or bathed and lived in the light of Aether).

I love the look to the east. The initial follow-up questions were "sure, but where was he called Aether and who in Glorantha needed to make that equation?" The first answer is pretty easy after all: Primolt is already present in Plentonius, or rather always already absent. He's the empty circle we now call Sky Rune or Light.

Bringing in the Luxites is interesting because I've often daydreamed about a rich Pelorian angelology with elaborate grimoires, magicians cloistered in unroofed towers, ecstatic contacts and so on. (The marriage of Lhankor may preserve some trace of this.) Whatever the Luxites believe, we probably know it by way of these angelic conversations. There may be a rich body of inspired poetic literature waiting to discover . . . the Brown Man himself may have been familiar with it.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

But the fact is that the Fire did go Low and entered the Earth.  Lodril is there, in the Earth.  You either accept the reality and justify rulership over him by the Purity of the Light, or sever kinship with Fire/Lodril which you probably don't want to do.


The formula Plentonius knew is that Fire is Fire and Earth is not, so I think the tension you describe is not easy for Dara Happans to negotiate. After all Peloria doesn't seem to be volcanically active and so direct evidence of Fire In Earth would be limited, maybe even received or metaphorical compared to what they know to be true in places like Caladraland and the depths of the Obsidian Plateau. Lodril's fire is tantric (obscene), infernal (ruler of hell) or both.

Even Lodril has no mother. No good Dara Happan has found a compelling reason to give Aether a wife. Umath has a mother. Whoever his father was had a wife.

Given the evolving understanding of Dendara and Gorgorma as brides from the east it's interesting that Lodril is the one who "recommends" Dendara and introduces monogamy. If I didn't know better I'd almost wonder if Lodril and his people were themselves introduced into the mythology to fill a gap created by some other figure moving or to explain demographic changes like the absorption of Pelandans into the urban underclass. That's an old debate but even as a prodigal son (departing and then coming back in a subservient role) I wonder which feats officially attributed to him really belong to someone else, and vice versa.

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49 minutes ago, scott-martin said:


The formula Plentonius knew is that Fire is Fire and Earth is not, so I think the tension you describe is not easy for Dara Happans to negotiate. After all Peloria doesn't seem to be volcanically active and so direct evidence of Fire In Earth would be limited, maybe even received or metaphorical compared to what they know to be true in places like Caladraland and the depths of the Obsidian Plateau. Lodril's fire is tantric (obscene), infernal (ruler of hell) or both.

 

Lake Oronin was formerly Mount Fire, a volcano. Turos, who dwelt there, was the 'inside portion' of ViSaruDaran, who is Veskarthan/Lodril.

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5 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Lake Oronin was formerly Mount Fire, a volcano. Turos, who dwelt there, was the 'inside portion' of ViSaruDaran, who is Veskarthan/Lodril.

There's our Pelorian Lodril, his mountain drowned! I guess either they remember that in Dara Happa or his children carried the lesson into town.

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4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I've often daydreamed about a rich Pelorian angelology with elaborate grimoires, magicians cloistered in unroofed towers, ecstatic contacts and so on. (The marriage of Lhankor may preserve some trace of this.) Whatever the Luxites believe, we probably know it by way of these angelic conversations. There may be a rich body of inspired poetic literature waiting to discover . . . the Brown Man himself may have been familiar with it.

Just head off to Yuthuppa!

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

The formula Plentonius knew is that Fire is Fire and Earth is not, so I think the tension you describe is not easy for Dara Happans to negotiate. After all Peloria doesn't seem to be volcanically active and so direct evidence of Fire In Earth would be limited, maybe even received or metaphorical

No, not volcanic, but still in the midst of winter, the earth beneath the frozen surface is still warm compared to the air above.  I'm sure the peasants dig down into the sod to make their homes.  Remember that by the time you've reached Yuthuppa, you have winters like in St.Paul/Minneapolis (though mitigated a bit in recent years by the Kalikos Expeditions).

 

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On 9/7/2018 at 4:28 AM, JonL said:

The Elmal cult write up and Runegate details in the current HQ books are great. When a new to Glorantha person says, "Can I play a Paladin?" I say "Yes, let's talk about Elmal the loyal defender of the clan, God of the Sun, horses, and justice. He's awesome." and they eat it up.

HQG books will continue to honor the presentation of Elmal established in Storm Tribe and Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes. It is worth noting that the Yelmalio cult is more numerous in Sartar (3K to 1K) but more isolated (SDT). It is also worth noting that Pavis seems to have Yelmalio worshippers, whereas Jonstown and Boldhome do not. So I would suggest that the Yelmalio cult may have had more significance amongst those who went into exile with Dorasor.

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6 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

It is also worth noting that Pavis seems to have Yelmalio worshippers, whereas Jonstown and Boldhome do not. So I would suggest that the Yelmalio cult may have had more significance amongst those who went into exile with Dorasor.

I think it is rather the contingent provided by Monrogh for the cousin of Tarkalor, some of whom remained in the new city at Pavis while the rest went to Mo Baustra/Sun County to end their Solitude of Testing for good.

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1 minute ago, Joerg said:

I think it is rather the contingent provided by Monrogh for the cousin of Tarkalor, some of whom remained in the new city at Pavis while the rest went to Mo Baustra/Sun County to end their Solitude of Testing for good.

Boldhome has Yelmalio worshipers. What makes you think otherwise?

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5 hours ago, Jeff said:

Boldhome has Yelmalio worshipers. What makes you think otherwise?

Jonstown's cult breakdown suggests that it is dominated by Lightbringer worshipers, with only 50 members of other cults (SC, 9) Clearwine has Yinkin as well as Humakt but no Yelmalio or Elmal (SC, 31) but note that Runegate has the Sun Horse Elmal temple (SC 61) which supports the Colymar tribe (and no Yelmalio). Boldhome has a noted temple to Elmal (S:KoH, 245) but no noted temple to Yelmalio.

By contrast there are 200 Sun Towners in New Pavis (P:GtA, 174) and they are a significant political force there.

It's not that we 'know' there are none, but that whilst Pavis has a Sun Dome Temple, these Sartarite cities do not and there does not seem to be as significant a Yelmalian presence.

In addition note that according to SC, 139

"The Yelmalio cult is a hostile enclave of Solar worship amongst the storm worshipping Orlanthi. The cult survives by the training and hiring of pike-armed soldiers as mercenaries – the famous Sun Dome Templars. They are found only in Sun County and in the city of Aldachur.The Sun Dome Temple in Sun County is a self sufficient community centered around the temple itself. Among the Aldachuri, the Yelmalio cultists have supplanted the Orlanth cult as the leaders of the community."

In addition, we note of Vaantar that:

"The lands of the Yelmalio cult - usually called Sun Dome County or Sun County - are now home to approximately 12,000 people. However, only about 2,000 are initiates of the Yelmalio cult; the rest are women, children and a large population of slaves called ergeshi - descendents of the Kitori captured and enslaved during the wars."

Given there are about 3000 Yelmalio worshippers in Sartar, S:KoH p.133, that puts about 2K in Sun County and the other 1K mostly in Alda Chur and in the surrounding Vantaros tribe.

So that would tend to cluster Yelmalio worshipers in and around Vaantar and Alda-Chur, and possibly surviving Elmal worshipers falling along Runegate->Dangerford->Toena

There might be some Yelmalio worshippers in Boldhome, but they don't have a temple there, unlike Alda-Chur or Pavis.

Edited by Ian Cooper
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1 minute ago, Ian Cooper said:

Jonstown's cult breakdown suggests that it is dominated by Lightbringer worshipers, with only 50 members of other cults (SC, 9) Clearwine has Yinkin as well as Humakt but no Yelmalio or Elmal (SC, 31) but note that Runegate has the Sun Horse Elmal temple (SC 61) which supports the Colymar tribe (and no Yelmalio). Boldhome has a noted temple to Elmal (S:KoH, 245) but no noted temple to Yelmalio.

By contrast there are 200 Sun Towners in New Pavis (P:GtA, 174) and they are a significant political force there.

It's not that we 'know' there are none, but that whilst Pavis has a Sun Dome Temple, these Sartarite cities do not and there does not seem to be as significant a Yelmalian presence.

In addition note that according to SC, 139

"The Yelmalio cult is a hostile enclave of Solar worship amongst the storm worshipping Orlanthi. The cult survives by the training and hiring of pike-armed soldiers as mercenaries –
the famous Sun Dome Templars. They are found only in Sun County and in the city of Aldachur.The Sun Dome Temple in Sun County is a self sufficient community centered around the temple itself. Among the Aldachuri, the Yelmalio cultists have supplanted the Orlanth cult as the leaders of the community."

In addition, we note of Vaantar that:

"The lands of the Yelmalio cult - usually called Sun Dome County or Sun County - are now home to approximately 12,000 people. However, only about 2,000 are initiates of the Yelmalio cult; the rest are women, children and a large population of slaves called ergeshi - descendents of the Kitori captured and enslaved during the wars."

Given there are about 3000 Yelmalio worshippers in Sartar, S:KoH p.133, that puts about 2K in Sun County and the other 1K mostly in Alda Chur and in the surrounding Vantaros tribe.

So that would tend to cluster Yelmalio worshipers in and around Vaantar and Alda-Chur, and possibly surviving Elmal worshipers falling along Runegate->Dangerford->Toena

There might be some Yelmalio worshippers in Boldhome, but they don't have a temple there, unlike Alda-Chur or Pavis.

There is a Yelmalio Temple in Boldhome. A rather big one, probably commissioned by Tarkalor himself. It is on the map of Boldhome.

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7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

There is a Yelmalio Temple in Boldhome. A rather big one, probably commissioned by Tarkalor himself. It is on the map of Boldhome.

On something we have not seen then yet, I guess, as its not in the S:KoH.

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Just now, Ian Cooper said:

On something we have not seen then yet, I guess, as its not in the S:KoH.

I have an entire Boldhome city guide in the works....

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I have an entire Boldhome city guide in the works....

Ah I had forgotten that was in the loop somewhere. It does make sense that Tarkalor would have felt keen to honor his new allies in Boldhome. I'm not sure it changes the point that the main influence points of Yelmalio seem to be Vaantar, Alda-Chur and Pavis. So the Yelmalians seem to have clustered on the frontiers of Satar over being at its heart. I don't think any of that diminishes the playability of Yelmalio for PCs, particularly after the Dragonrise.

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3 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

Ah I had forgotten that was in the loop somewhere. It does make sense that Tarkalor would have felt keen to honor his new allies in Boldhome. I'm not sure it changes the point that the main influence points of Yelmalio seem to be Vaantar, Alda-Chur and Pavis. So the Yelmalians seem to have clustered on the frontiers of Satar over being at its heart. I don't think any of that diminishes the playability of Yelmalio for PCs, particularly after the Dragonrise.

Well and in Boldhome. Which is a VERY big exception to what you just stated.

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37 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Well and in Boldhome. Which is a VERY big exception to what you just stated.

Perhaps. I guess it remains difficult for us to speculate in a forum about insights that appear in unpublished sources and present information that contradict earlier sources. I guess that is the heart of much of this thread. But it does appear that the concept of Elmal and Yelmalio is not what it was in the HW or HQ line, KoDP or Six Ages, and is changing for RQG. Elmal was not a sub-cult of Yelmalio in that model, and the Elmal cult was older and hostile to Yelmalio, even in the Sartar Rising period.

We will have to wait and see how it turns out for RQG to understand it.

I think a number of us on this thread are simply saying that as part of that change we would loath to move away from the version of Elmal and Yelmalio we have built up over the last twenty years, and would prefer something that does not change that. A lot of powerful stories have been predicated on the religious strife between the two visions of the Little Sun. Making Elmal a minor sub-cult of Yelmalio removes that. The persistence of this thread does speak to some of the concern here though.

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23 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

I think a number of us on this thread are simply saying that as part of that change we would loath to move away from the version of Elmal and Yelmalio we have built up over the last twenty years, and would prefer something that does not change that. A lot of powerful stories have been predicated on the religious strife between the two visions of the Little Sun. Making Elmal a minor sub-cult of Yelmalio removes that.

I agree, and I also think the discussion in this thread emphasizes that.  This religious strife creates an interesting and different tension in-game, and I think the God Learner viewing loses something interesting in both myth and MGF.

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47 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I agree, and I also think the discussion in this thread emphasizes that.  This religious strife creates an interesting and different tension in-game, and I think the God Learner viewing loses something interesting in both myth and MGF.

The most successful questers will enforce their vision on the way the cult is expressed in the world. Love an Elmal, fight for that Elmal. Love a Yelmalio or some other little sun, fight for that god. MGF. Delve into his mysteries and promote a compelling argument. This cult in particular gives us plenty of examples of how willpower, courage, luck and insight can change history and maybe even canon here in the Hero Wars Era. While you're at it, go ahead and win him back his Fire, how miraculous and wonderful would that be?

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