Elmal Yelmalio thing

[daskindt]

1 hour ago, Ian Cooper said:

Perhaps. I guess it remains difficult for us to speculate in a forum about insights that appear in unpublished sources and present information that contradict earlier sources. I guess that is the heart of much of this thread. But it does appear that the concept of Elmal and Yelmalio is not what it was in the HW or HQ line, KoDP or Six Ages, and is changing for RQG. Elmal was not a sub-cult of Yelmalio in that model, and the Elmal cult was older and hostile to Yelmalio, even in the Sartar Rising period.

We will have to wait and see how it turns out for RQG to understand it.

I think a number of us on this thread are simply saying that as part of that change we would loath to move away from the version of Elmal and Yelmalio we have built up over the last twenty years, and would prefer something that does not change that. A lot of powerful stories have been predicated on the religious strife between the two visions of the Little Sun. Making Elmal a minor sub-cult of Yelmalio removes that. The persistence of this thread does speak to some of the concern here though.

I was disappointed and worried before, but it has only gotten worse.

The worst part though has been to see people being corrected, having their document based arguments dismissed, and told they’re wrong based upon sources that haven’t yet been published, when those “new” sources clearly contradict the existing material. There’s been some serious gaslighting occurring in this and other social media forums on this topic.

This started for me with me thinking I didn’t remember the stories and myths of Elmal very well, but as I’ve reviewed previous sources and read new sources it’s clear that I remembered much better than I thought.

There is a rich and twenty-plus year history of Elmal that is very clearly being discarded and retconned to reassert Yelmalio as they only sun cult of relevance in Dragon Pass (and perhaps much more of Glorantha for all we know at this point).

I guess I shouldn’t be too disappointed since Elmal was a retcon in the first place (and many folks didn’t appreciate him being introduced/invented), but it seemed like Greg and Jeff (along with countless other contributors) had fully committed to Elmal’s presence as a part of Glorantha. The new direction on Elmal and Yelmalio for RuneQuest: Glorantha seems like an extremely clumsy retcon to remove Elmal and smooth over the Yelmalio cult.

I’m incredibly impressed with the quality of Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes and related projects. The new art and visuals for RuneQuest are brilliant. But my Glorantha certainly won’t be following the Yelmalio retcon in the new edition and it makes me less interested and less excited about collecting the new books being published.

[JonL]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

There is a Yelmalio Temple in Boldhome. A rather big one, probably commissioned by Tarkalor himself. It is on the map of Boldhome.

If a major part of Monrogh & Tarkalor's deal was that the Yelmalions would get to segregate themselves apart from Sartar society and re-order their culture along neoPelorian lines,  I'd think Boldhome would be the last place they'd want to go.

[Joerg]

49 minutes ago, JonL said:

If a major part of Monrogh & Tarkalor's deal was that the Yelmalions would get to segregate themselves apart from Sartar society and re-order their culture along neoPelorian lines,  I'd think Boldhome would be the last place they'd want to go.

No, it does make quite a lot of sense that Tarkalor would have an embassy of Sun Dome County in his capital. They would be an addition to the already impressive array of loyal warriors of the Telmori and the Humakti who form the regular royal bodyguard.

Like Nochet and Pavis, Boldhome is a melting pot of neighboring folk rather than a typical local city. It has a troll quarter, for crying out loud. It will have a Praxian market, and probably an Earth Shaker and a Beast Folk embassy as well, though not necessarily always occupied.

The dwarf embassy was mentioned in the silver dancer scenario.

Terasarin's ties to the Far Place when the Far Place Yelmalians gave asylum to dissidents from Vanntar may mean that that arrangement soured within a few years. We don't hear anything about templars standing guard for Temertain.

[soltakss]

54 minutes ago, JonL said:

If a major part of Monrogh & Tarkalor's deal was that the Yelmalions would get to segregate themselves apart from Sartar society and re-order their culture along neoPelorian lines,  I'd think Boldhome would be the last place they'd want to go.

Not necessarily.

The Sun Counties are a way for Yelmalians to be separate from other people, in a Sun-based theocratic state.

Individual Yelmalian Temples are just temples, not temple/farming communites. A Yelmalian Temple might only have a hundred staff, ready to cater for visitors and so on.

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

There is a Yelmalio Temple in Boldhome. A rather big one, probably commissioned by Tarkalor himself. It is on the map of Boldhome.

That's very interesting, and with the presence of Trolls in Boldhome suggests that one of the agendas of Sartar's dynasty was to create a balance of the Elements (at least of Air, Darkness, Solar and Earth) within their capital. Maybe Water as well? Interesting that Dorasar's New Pavis seems to have followed a similar pattern.

Looking at A Rough Guide to Boldhome, which dates back to '92 there's a Yelmalio Temple listed and apparent on the map, though I suspect that some of the information in that booklet is no longer canon. The Rough Guide doesn't show a temple to Elmal, but one is mentioned in Sartar: KoH. If both are still there, then it makes things interesting for the two cults.

Edited September 9, 2018 by M Helsdon

[JonL]

I can buy the embassy angle to some extent, though the challenge stuff makes that a frought proposition. 

The garrison angle makes zero sense. Phalanxes are crappy in mountainous terrain,  and replacing Elmali whose defining characteristic is being loyal defenders with a bunch of mercs whose officers will be getting constantly antagonized by your own is one of the worst things I can imagine doing.

[M Helsdon]

11 minutes ago, JonL said:

I can buy the embassy angle to some extent, though the challenge stuff makes that a frought proposition. 

The garrison angle makes zero sense. Phalanxes are crappy in mountainous terrain,  and replacing Elmali whose defining characteristic is being loyal defenders with a bunch of mercs whose officers will be getting constantly antagonized by your own is one of the worst things I can imagine doing.

Temples are likely to have a unit of professional temple guards (with perhaps a small militia drawn from the laity), but I suspect they wouldn't be a massive military force. Depending on the size of the temple, probably far smaller than a Square of 64 Templars, perhaps a file or two at most.

In the steep and winding streets of Boldhome, a shield-wall/phalanx would be useful for riot control (the tactic is still employed by Police forces worldwide after all), though not with long spears... Personally, I doubt that a significant Yelmalion unit would be present in Boldhome, unless hired from elsewhere as mercenaries.

[JonL]

I could see Temertain and his Lunar friends bringing in some outside mercs to help oppress the locals. 

Argrath or Kallyr, not so much. He'd put them to better use elsewhere, and she's a nationalist.

[daskindt]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Temples are likely to have a unit of professional temple guards (with perhaps a small militia drawn from the laity), but I suspect they wouldn't be a massive military force. Depending on the size of the temple, probably far smaller than a Square of 64 Templars, perhaps a file or two at most.

In the steep and winding streets of Boldhome, a shield-wall/phalanx would be useful for riot control (the tactic is still employed by Police forces worldwide after all), though not with long spears... Personally, I doubt that a significant Yelmalion unit would be present in Boldhome, unless hired from elsewhere as mercenaries.

The problem is that there’s no evidence in the materials published in the last couple decades that this would have occurred and lots of evidence that it wouldn’t have occurred.

Ian already provided numerous page references to indicate that in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes there is no mention of a Yelmalio temple in Boldhome and direct reference to an Elmal temple.

Further, there is evidence all over the place that the Sartarties and Yelmalions do not get along or trust each other. Sun County swore an oath to Tarkalor and have not renewed that oath with any Prince of Sartar since.

King of Sartar, Storm Tribe, Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, Sartar Companion, the Coming Storm, and other sources all emphasize the hostility between the cults of Elmal and Yelmalio. However, I’m just going to focus on some of the references in Wyrm’s Footnotes, which are written primarily from a perspective friendly to the Yelmalio cult.

Here’s a few references from Wyrm’s Footnotes #15:

Pg. 35:

Quote

Culture
Sun Domers are xenophobic and militaristic, ruling over hostile populations of farmer serfs. They are known for their belligerent distrust and hostility towards their Orlanthi neighbors. Yelmalio cultists are offended by and scornful of the sexual license of the Orlanthi. Travelers can expect no hospitality from Yelmalio cultists and can expect petty to grievous abuse from Sun Dome Templars and temple officials. The Yelmalio cult reserves special hatred from Darkness and Chaos worshippers.

These are the “friendly” members of the Yelmalio cult that once swore an oath to Tarkalor. They don’t sound particularly well disposed toward their Orlanthi neighbors. They don’t sound likely to set up camp in Boldhome rather than remove themselves from Orlanthi communities to live under their own rule in Sun County.

Pg. 37:

Quote

Vaantar and the Templars
Vaantar is an ancient sacred site to the cults of the Sky and Light. During the Resettlement Period and the early decades of the kingdom of Sartar, Vaantar was an important temple of Elmal, belonging to no tribe and defended against the Kitori by determined members of the cult. Monrogh Lantern, a companion of Tarkalor, brought back Yelmalio to Vaantar, and his presence vitalized the people, who became the core of a rapidly growing cult. Within a generation, half the Elmali of Sartar had joined the new cult, creating terrible strife within the tribes of Sartar. The presence of many unattached foreigners aggravated the social problems.

Terrible strife amongst the tribes of Sartar due to the Yelmalio cult. This doesn’t sound like the Sartarites welcomed the Yelmalio cult into their society and reinforces the notion that Tarkalor resolved much of the tension by granting Vaantar to the Yelmalio cult (and taking it away from the Elmali) in order to get them out of Sartar.

Pg. 38:

Quote

Since 1585, Sun Dome County has sought its own way, independent of the Princes of Sartar. The Yelmalion pikemen remained neutral in the Boldhome Campaign and allied with Fazzur Wideread after Starbrow’s Rebellion. However, many still honor the memory of the Princes of Sartar.

The Yelmalion pikemen of Vaantar remained neutral in the Boldhome Campaign. One would think if they had a temple IN Boldhome, they would have been forced to take a side one way or the other, but curiously no mention of any organized Yelmalio cult presence in Boldhome.

Pg. 41:

Quote

Yelmalio
In the mid-1500s, Lunar magicians proved to the tribal priests that the Golden Spearman was a son of Emperor Yelm and an enemy of Orlanth. Rather than abandon the Golden Spearman, many Elmali rebelled against their traditional leaders, weakening the Far Place tribes while they were under great pressure from King Phargentes of Tarsh.
It was Tarkalor of Sartar who ended the strife, by promising the disgruntled Elmali they could have their own lands, and the chance to make their own rules, if they would help him in his task against Darkness. They did, and were rewarded with the Sun Dome Temple in south Sartar. Their leader, Monrogh Lantern, revealed that the god of the Sun Dome Temple was neither Yelm nor Elmal, but the wounded body of the sun limping across the sky, Yelmalio. The god had served Arinsor Clearmind, a famous lord among the dragonfriends and had been kept pure in the wilds of Prax. Yelmalio was now embraced by the disgruntled Elmali at the Sun Dome Temple. The Elmali at Aldachur recognized the Golden Spearman as Yelmalio, although those at Ironspike rejected this and kept to their ancestral traditions.

Here’s the rivalry between Yelmalio and Elmal in Tarsh. The Golden Spearman was a son of Emperor Yelm and an enemy of Orlanth. Tarkalor ends the strife by giving the disgruntled Elmali their own lands to make their own rules. No mention of constructing a temple in Boldhome to honor the Yelmalio cult. Instead, they resolved the strife by getting the new cult out of contact with the rest of the tribes of Sartar. Again, the revelation is that Yelmalio is neither Yelm nor Elmal. Even in Tarsh though, Elmal was originally worshipped and the Elmali at Ironspike kept faith in Elmal.

Pg. 75:

Quote

Yelmalio
Yelmalio is a rival of Orlanth, worshiped in Sartar by the Sun Dome Templars of Sun County and by the Vantaros tribe. No more than 15 temple-towns are extant during the Hero Wars, including one in Dragon Pass and Prax, and two in Lunar Tarsh. Outside of these enclaves, the Yelmalio cult wields little influence. Within their handful of temple-towns, the Yelmalio cult exercises a disciplined theocracy.

This specifically calls out one temple-town in Dragon Pass—clearly Vaantar. One in Prax. Two in Lunar Tarsh. No mention of a temple in Boldhome amongst the 15 extant during the Hero Wars. This is quite a different view than the one being presented in RuneQuest: Glorantha that Yelmalio is influential everywhere in Dragon Pass and Elmal is merely a mask of Yelmalio with a carbon copy cult.

 

These are just references in the very pro-Yelmalio Wyrm’s Footnotes #15. But they demonstrate the significant hostility between the cult of Yelmalio and traditional Orlanthi culture, especially the Elmal cult. Again, Ian provided great references from the various HeroQuest sources on Elmal and Yelmalio with the specifics about the lack of a Boldhome Yelmalio temple.

Clearly, we can’t change what Jeff is writing for the upcoming RuneQuest: Glorantha materials, but they are obviously deviating from the materials that have been published in the last couple decades. But there are increasingly two different Gloranthas emerging on this point: 1) HeroQuest Glorantha where both Elmal and Yelmalio exist and there is a rich Elmal mythology and culture which includes a hostile schism between the cults, and 2) RuneQuest Glorantha where only Yelmalio exists in a meaningful way and Elmal is a quaint name of a sub-cult of Yelmalio that is functionally identical whose contrary myths are being forgotton or ignored.

 

 

 

 

[scott-martin]

13 minutes ago, daskindt said:

Clearly, we can’t change what Jeff is writing for the upcoming RuneQuest: Glorantha materials, but they are obviously deviating from the materials that have been published in the last couple decades. But there are increasingly two different Gloranthas emerging on this point: 1) HeroQuest Glorantha where both Elmal and Yelmalio exist and there is a rich Elmal mythology and culture which includes a hostile schism between the cults, and 2) RuneQuest Glorantha where only Yelmalio exists in a meaningful way and Elmal is a quaint name of a sub-cult of Yelmalio that is functionally identical whose contrary myths are being forgotton or ignored.

I wouldn't be surprised if Elmal changed . . . a lot . . . when Orlanth was dead and the old bonds were tested. And he hasn't finished changing yet. The story of those upheavals will finally give the solar brothers the epic they've always deserved. Who keeps the faith, who discovers new Truths, who throws it all away. 

Great WF article for someone or the right team!

[jajagappa]

10 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The story of those upheavals will finally give the solar brothers the epic they've always deserved. Who keeps the faith, who discovers new Truths, who throws it all away. 

That's the thing - it's really fertile ground for an entire campaign.  Will the Sun Dome Count, post-Dragonrise, bring about a reconciliation or unification with the Elmali?  Will the Elmali find a new path to prove they are more or greater than Yelmalio, while not just some cast-off of the Emperor?  What part might the Grazers and their Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant figures play in this story?  All this could play out under the nose of Argrath and the Hero Wars.

[JonL]

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Elmal changed . . . a lot . . . when Orlanth was dead and the old bonds were tested. And he hasn't finished changing yet. The story of those upheavals will finally give the solar brothers the epic they've always deserved. Who keeps the faith, who discovers new Truths, who throws it all away. 

Great WF article for someone or the right team!

It's easy to imagine Selemal leading the Runegate tribes in an epic Elmal Gaurds the Stead ritual during the Wind Stop.

[M Helsdon]

8 hours ago, daskindt said:

These are the “friendly” members of the Yelmalio cult that once swore an oath to Tarkalor. They don’t sound particularly well disposed toward their Orlanthi neighbors. They don’t sound likely to set up camp in Boldhome rather than remove themselves from Orlanthi communities to live under their own rule in Sun County.

True, but the temple in Boldhome dates to when Tarkalor was helping set up the Yelmalion mini-state, and from what Jeff wrote, he had a hand in its building. Only later did the relationship sour.

Without more details, such as the Yelmalion population in Boldhome it isn't possible to determine how big its influence is 'now'. I would also note that in the 'now', with Argrath Prince of Sartar things will have changed again: he will install his comrade Rurik, a Yelmalion from New Pavis, as Count of Vanntar, and it is very likely that a Vanntar regiment will now serve (as mercenaries) his regime.

Things are in flux.

[M Helsdon]

8 hours ago, daskindt said:

This specifically calls out one temple-town in Dragon Pass—clearly Vaantar. One in Prax. Two in Lunar Tarsh. No mention of a temple in Boldhome amongst the 15 extant during the Hero Wars.

Those are major Sun Dome Temple communities, not the only temples. The 15 relates to the Great Temples. A while ago I attempted an exercise to map out all the temples, of various sizes...

My map is now out-of date, but:

 

	Great Temples	Location
1.	Peralam	Vanch
2.	Daughter’s Road (White Rock)	Holay
3.	Domanand (Mirin’s Cross)	Holay
4.	Vanntar (Sun County)	Sartar
5.	Little Cafol (True Sky)	Sylila
6.	Laramite Hills (Kareiston’s Temple)	Imther
7.	Linstingland (Lingsting Sun Dome/Last Light)	Talastar
8.	Zalador Hills (Zalan Sun Dome)	Holay
9.	Orenair Sun Dome (Cold Sun)	Aggar
10.	Upper Forantin Sun Dome (Crystal Dome)	Aggar
11.	Ever-New-Glory	Tarsh
12.	Goldedge	Tarsh
13.	Karia March	Delela in Ralios
14.	North Dona (Northbank)	Janube River in Fronela
15.	Mo Baustra (Sun Dome County)	Prax

 

There are many lesser temples including:

 

	Sun Dome Temples	Location
A	Alda-Chur	Far Place
B	Dykene	Balazar
C	Elkoi	Balazar
D	Garhound	Prax
E	Pavis	Prax
F	Salantor	Aggar
G	Serene Victory	Jarst
H	Southbank	Janube River in Fronela
I	Little Vanntar (Nochet)	Esrolia

 

Extinguished temples include:

 

	Sun Dome Temples	Location
x	Billiz	Aggar
y	Hesterneo	Esrolia
z	Masassakar	Aggar
?	Sereventh	Sylila

 

 

[daskindt]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

True, but the temple in Boldhome dates to when Tarkalor was helping set up the Yelmalion mini-state, and from what Jeff wrote, he had a hand in its building. Only later did the relationship sour.

Without more details, such as the Yelmalion population in Boldhome it isn't possible to determine how big its influence is 'now'. I would also note that in the 'now', with Argrath Prince of Sartar things will have changed again: he will install his comrade Rurik, a Yelmalion from New Pavis, as Count of Vanntar, and it is very likely that a Vanntar regiment will now serve (as mercenaries) his regime.

Things are in flux.

The relationship didn’t sour. It started sour. The Yelmalio revelation was causing strife in Tarsh and Sartar. The Elmal-Yelmalions were in revolt and were enemies of Tarkalor’s father and betrayed Jarosar Jarosil.

Tarkalor saw a way to use his father’s enemies to defeat the Kitori. He awarded them Vaantar and moved them out of Sartar to bring an end to the conflict they were causing with the traditional Elmali.

It doesn’t make sense for Tarkalor to construct them a temple in Boldhome when he’s trying to end the conflict with the traditional Elmali. Honoring them in the heart of Sartar would have made things worse.

This is based on published documents though. Again, if Jeff is retconning the published sources there’s really no point in arguing because he can change anything that conflicts with the new version of events.

Edited September 10, 2018 by daskindt

[Jeff]

The Yelmalio revelation did not cause strife, it helped end it. Read the Making Gods essay carefully.

[Joerg]

58 minutes ago, daskindt said:

The relationship didn’t sour. It started sour. The Yelmalio revelation was causing strife in Tarsh and Sartar. The Elmal-Yelmalions were in revolt and were enemies of Tarkalor’s father and betrayed Jarosil.

They weren't enemies of Saronil and Jarosar but an underprivileged minority in Sartar which expressed their displeasure by denying a call to arms. That's not open rebellion, or treason.

 

58 minutes ago, daskindt said:

Tarkalor saw a way to use his father’s enemies to defeat the Kitori. He awarded them Vaantar and moved them out of Sartar to bring an end to the conflict they were causing with the traditional Elmali.

That's not how I read this at all. The guys who followed Monrogh had no strife with those who remained - doctrine varies somewhat from temple to temple. These warriors were treated as second class Orlanthi, and Monrogh gave them a chance to be lords in their own light.

Tarkalor was the one who made the disgruntled Elmali listen to Monrogh in the first place. If he could put up with those ritual challenges, everyone else ought to have been able to, too.

58 minutes ago, daskindt said:

It doesn’t make sense for Tarkalor to construct them a temple in Boldhome when he’s trying to end the conflict with the traditional Elmali. Honoring them in the heart of Sartar would have made things worse.

This is based on published documents though. Again, if Jeff is retconning the published sources there’s really no point in arguing because he can change anything that conflicts with the new version of events.

Purely based on what has been published before, I truly don't see how you can call this a retcon. Once more we are arguing about details which may make less sense when approached differently, like the 2003/2004 debate about the location of the Balmyr (after their "tribal center" Halfort was put right in the middle of the then victorious Locaem and Kultain tribes). Problematic details, not a retcon.

 

[JonL]

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That's the thing - it's really fertile ground for an entire campaign.  Will the Sun Dome Count, post-Dragonrise, bring about a reconciliation or unification with the Elmali?  Will the Elmali find a new path to prove they are more or greater than Yelmalio, while not just some cast-off of the Emperor?  What part might the Grazers and their Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant figures play in this story?  All this could play out under the nose of Argrath and the Hero Wars.

Elmal Guards the Sunpath is out there in God Time, waiting for an Elmali PC to say, "I am the Sun."

Edited September 10, 2018 by JonL

[Ian Cooper]

9 hours ago, JonL said:

It's easy to imagine Selemal leading the Runegate tribes in an epic Elmal Gaurds the Stead ritual during the Wind Stop.

He does, I believe we cover it in The Coming Storm (it might just have happened at my table, don't have the sources to hand). But as folks tend to turn to their darkness survival myths in the Darkness, and Elmal is the premier survivor, Runegate becomes a beacon during the Windstop

[Ian Cooper]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Without more details, such as the Yelmalion population in Boldhome it isn't possible to determine how big its influence is 'now'. I would also note that in the 'now', with Argrath Prince of Sartar things will have changed again: he will install his comrade Rurik, a Yelmalion from New Pavis, as Count of Vanntar, and it is very likely that a Vanntar regiment will now serve (as mercenaries) his regime.

Sure, but story-wise this works far better, an ascendant Yelmalio-cult led by Rurik, because New Pavis had a strong Yelmalio-Sartarite culture, pushing further on the Elmali. Even undermining the Lord of Runegate. This is the stuff of stories, because it has conflict at its heart.

[Ian Cooper]

1 hour ago, Ian Cooper said:

He does, I believe we cover it in The Coming Storm (it might just have happened at my table, don't have the sources to hand). But as folks tend to turn to their darkness survival myths in the Darkness, and Elmal is the premier survivor, Runegate becomes a beacon during the Windstop

Here we go:

 

"...the situation at Runegate during the Great Winter (see Sartar Companion page 55). There Selelmal the True performs a This World heroquest — Elmal Defends the Camp — and shines with a radiance that keeps the Great Winter away from Runegate. The cost is that many foes are drawn to Runegate as a result." The Eleven Lights, p112

[JonL]

Drawn to Runegate...

...to get stabbed with a flaming Justice Spear!

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, daskindt said:

The relationship didn’t sour. It started sour. The Yelmalio revelation was causing strife in Tarsh and Sartar. The Elmal-Yelmalions were in revolt and were enemies of Tarkalor’s father and betrayed Jarosar Jarosil.

There was a schism in Sartar and the Far Place. The Great Temple at Tarsh has been there for some time; Ever-New-Glory was founded after the Lunar conquest of Tarsh.

4 hours ago, daskindt said:

Tarkalor saw a way to use his father’s enemies to defeat the Kitori. He awarded them Vaantar and moved them out of Sartar to bring an end to the conflict they were causing with the traditional Elmali.

Vanntar was originally an Elmal temple (and prior to the Dragonkill possibly a Yelmalio temple); given that temples usually have defenses in the form of guardian spirits, the building of the temple of Yelmalio there with no apparent magical backlash is suggestive (as is the earlier lodging of the Golden Spearman in the temple of Elmal at Alda-Chur, though in that case it might be argued to be an associated cult).

4 hours ago, daskindt said:

It doesn’t make sense for Tarkalor to construct them a temple in Boldhome when he’s trying to end the conflict with the traditional Elmali. Honoring them in the heart of Sartar would have made things worse.

Or attempted to mend the division by giving both Sun Gods a temple...

4 hours ago, daskindt said:

This is based on published documents though. Again, if Jeff is retconning the published sources there’s really no point in arguing because he can change anything that conflicts with the new version of events.

Yelmalio and Elmal have been a cause of confusion in the gaming community for some time, but it translates into confusion in the setting, which is a good thing, if handled well, because cults and religions are never neat and tidy, and too many gaming systems treat gods as a handful of stats and interests, and rarely schisms within the ranks of their worshippers.

I suspect that a temple to Yelmalio has been present in sketch maps of Boldhome for a long time.

2 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

Sure, but story-wise this works far better, an ascendant Yelmalio-cult led by Rurik, because New Pavis had a strong Yelmalio-Sartarite culture, pushing further on the Elmali. Even undermining the Lord of Runegate. This is the stuff of stories, because it has conflict at its heart.

It's Change, and Sartar's founder embodied Change... I'll be very interested to see how this is presented in forthcoming material, as it would be an ideal source of dramatic tension.

[Oracle]

On 9/10/2018 at 10:00 AM, Jeff said:

The Yelmalio revelation did not cause strife, it helped end it. Read the Making Gods essay carefully.

Because I'm quite intrigued by this discussion: where could I find this essay?

Edited October 13, 2018 by Oracle

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Oracle said:

Becaus I'm quite intrigued by this discussion: where could I find this essay?

King of Sartar.