Perpetual Spirit Magic

[kaydet]

Is there a way, using the Runequest rules and framework, to create an item which has a spirit magic spell that is always on? 

[Richard S.]

If you were a shaman with a lenient GM I would say you could make a matrix and then have several spirits powering it, enough so that one would have time to recover MP's while the others keep the matrix running. Of course, that would require a butt load of spirits and there are probably more efficient, practical, and broken ways of doing it that I don't know about.

[SDLeary]

I would allow this, but only with a sacrifice of characteristic POW equal to the cost of the spell (ie., the shaman that creates it cuts his hand and drips blood; or if more is needed an actual sacrifice of some type).

Not really in the rules, but makes sense if you want to keep the thing running.

SDLeary

[Runeblogger]

I'd say these items come from heroquests.

[Darius West]

Simply put, I wouldn't allow spirit magic to be permanent unless it was a Godlearner artifact.  Spirit magic is intrinsically short-lived and drawn from the essence of the creature performing it.  The notion that this can be changed with a heroquest is okay, but not many spirits actually have an associated heroquest for their followers to perform with this in mind.  If you want long effects, you use sorcery not shamanism.  This limit is fair given how powerful Shamanism is.  I mean, why develop sorcery if shamanism, the more primitive tradition is better in every way?

[Joerg]

If the magic was always on, it would be technology rather than magic. That said, RQ2 offered the common rune spell extension, which was stackable without any real limit IIRC. (RQ3 notably did not offer this.) If you have enough rune points to burn, you could stack up a few weeks of always on combat magic. The question is whether it is worth the effort - if you can afford to maintain a priest doing nothing than keeping your Bladesharp 4 sword operational, you could afford an enchanted iron sword as well (which might be the recipient of this spell anyway), and live in a palatial manor with a few Ulerians to service you. (Now where did Gringle hide his palatial manor?)

[Darius West]

57 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If the magic was always on, it would be technology rather than magic. That said, RQ2 offered the common rune spell extension, which was stackable without any real limit IIRC. (RQ3 notably did not offer this.) If you have enough rune points to burn, you could stack up a few weeks of always on combat magic. The question is whether it is worth the effort - if you can afford to maintain a priest doing nothing than keeping your Bladesharp 4 sword operational, you could afford an enchanted iron sword as well (which might be the recipient of this spell anyway), and live in a palatial manor with a few Ulerians to service you. (Now where did Gringle hide his palatial manor?)

Sorcery isn't "always on", it merely has a long duration. Ultimately any sufficiently advanced magic looks like technology.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Sorcery isn't "always on", it merely has a long duration. Ultimately any sufficiently advanced magic looks like technology.

That's the crux here, isn't it? We are discussing battle magic/spirit magic, off the cuff magical charms rather than sophisticated magic.

[Furry Fella]

Classic RQ has Farsee as 4 hours so a matrix for / of this linked to a twice power yielding crystal of at least 3 points would work permanently (as twice power yielding crystals recover their ability over / after 24 hours. A 2 point one wouldn't work as using the full power "breaks" / exhausts them.

For practical purposes the Odalya & Yinkin of Cat's Sight (Tales of the Reaching Moon 18) as a 2 point Spirit spell with duration = "the length of the hunt". It fits well with the mythology given and suits the cult perfectly. I have had some issues / questions about "the length of the hunt", but fingers cross so far, it's all been pretty reasonable. The two points that periodically generate much heat before any light are (1) The Hunt does not end at the kill - fair enough I've always felt. (2) What counts as a Hunt - this has been rather trickier but I have to accept that "hunting" hostiles / enemies is valid. Here my preference is for the hunt to be active (?) though I have been caught on this as it is a perfectly valid and very ancient technique to pick the right spot and wait. Where I've felt uncomfortable is the ease this could slide into guard duty

That brings me to my tangential thought - "what's with Yelmalio and Catseye rune spell" why the Cat bit - from the mythologies Cats are in Orlanth's stead so to speak - "Owlsight" for anyone (of course with owls it's as much hearing as sight (but lets stay clear of being like Trolls please shall we)

 

[Psullie]

13 hours ago, kaydet said:

Is there a way, using the Runequest rules and framework, to create an item which has a spirit magic spell that is always on? 

For me this is heading towards creating artefacts which the rules do not cover. As mention above a hero quest would be the best way forward as long the magic required is in tune with the myth in question. The last time mortals began making 'magic items' did not go so well for those involved... 

[styopa]

4 hours ago, Psullie said:

For me this is heading towards creating artefacts which the rules do not cover. As mention above a hero quest would be the best way forward as long the magic required is in tune with the myth in question. The last time mortals began making 'magic items' did not go so well for those involved... 

Lol "the rules do not cover". 

Every adventure my players go on, if it was originally a D&D one, when they find loot I just have them log it as "ring, DD3 &4" (meaning module DD3, room Y4) so when they finally get somewhere and can have it identified I can find the damned thing again and figure out in RQ terms how it works.

I think we generate 30+ completely new magic items from the trivial to the interesting for RQ every single adventure.

Yes, essentially we're playing D&D-style game in Glorantha with RQ rules.  Honestly, the biggest challenge is spell-equipping enemies appropriately with RQ magics, and including spirits appropriately.  Oh, and WAY less dragons generally than in the printed adventures.

[kaydet]

For example, I can easily see an Orlanthi hero having a helmet which warns him of an enemy's presence.

Obviously, this would take the form of a Detect Enemies spell, but the duration is short enough that it doesn't really fit the bill. I know I could just make it so by GM fiat, but I was curious if there was a mechanism within the rules to create such an object.

[simonh]

1 hour ago, kaydet said:

For example, I can easily see an Orlanthi hero having a helmet which warns him of an enemy's presence.

Obviously, this would take the form of a Detect Enemies spell, but the duration is short enough that it doesn't really fit the bill. I know I could just make it so by GM fiat, but I was curious if there was a mechanism within the rules to create such an object.

Id make it a spell matrix linked to a power storage matrix, maybe with enough power for a few castings. Thay way you do have to activate it to work, but you can use it a few times per day without depleting personal magic points. I think thats a reasonable set of constraints.

Alternatively you put a spirit in it that knows Detect Enemies and you get to ask it - "Be they true or be they False!"

Both are more interesting than a boring D&D magic helmet precisely because they have limitations and quirks, and have reasons for those, and there are clear methods in the rules for making them. Embrace the system, dont fight it. The logic of the system adds value.

Simon Hibbs

Edited February 13, 2018 by simonh

[jajagappa]

14 minutes ago, simonh said:

Id make it a spell matrix linked to a power storage matrix, maybe with enough power for a few castings.

With sufficient magic points, you could work the RQ3 Enchantments to provide something close to it.  Something like a spell matrix for a spirit magic spell with a replenishing magic point matrix, or just with a really long Duration.

[simonh]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

With sufficient magic points, you could work the RQ3 Enchantments to provide something close to it.  Something like a spell matrix for a spirit magic spell with a replenishing magic point matrix, or just with a really long Duration.

For a permanent effect? You could, but it would be a huge waste of POW. I just dont think this is a problem. If you want an in-world justification, Time and impermanence are cosmic mythic forces in Glorantha. Permanent magic, beyond certain types of enchantment perhapse, just isnt the domain of mortals.

Simon Hibbs

[g33k]

16 hours ago, simonh said:

For a permanent effect? You could, but it would be a huge waste of POW. I just dont think this is a problem. If you want an in-world justification, Time and impermanence are cosmic mythic forces in Glorantha. Permanent magic, beyond certain types of enchantment perhapse, just isnt the domain of mortals.

Simon Hibbs

This seems very Mythic/Gloranthan to me...  "Permanence" is a Godtime thing.  The Great compromise creates Time, and the associated Beginnings and Endings.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

"Permanence" is a Godtime thing.

Or the power of Stasis, which is very much still in the world even if its the Rune Power least invoked.

[SDLeary]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Or the power of Stasis, which is very much still in the world even if its the Rune Power least invoked.

I was actually going to say something about this myself, but the only group that came to mind was the Mostali. Are there others that utilize the power of Stasis? And are any of those peoples that we would consider as using "Spirit" magic?

SDLeary

Edited February 15, 2018 by SDLeary

[Joerg]

I think that permanence is something different from stasis. Change causes permanence. Illusion doesn't. Stasis may prevent change, so could be conservation of effects, but that could be different from stability.

 

Users of spirit magic gain familiarity with the ever-changing spirit world. That's not an environment which encourages permanence.

A while ago, there was talk about certain animist integrating spirits (especially low identity, effect spirits) in their self rather than binding them or putting them into charms. What has become out of that concept? (Ruleswise, it does sound a bit like the Stormbringer 3rd ed demon rules...)

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I was actually going to say something about this myself, but the only group that came to mind was the Mostali. Are there others that utilize the power of Stasis? And are any of those peoples that we would consider as using "Spirit" magic?

I'd expect there would be wizardry schools with a focus on Stasis.  There's no reason a shaman couldn't work with the powers of Stasis, particularly if associated with varied Earth powers.

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Change causes permanence. Illusion doesn't. Stasis may prevent change, so could be conservation of effects, but that could be different from stability.

As noted in the Sourcebook, "Restless and ambitious, Change introduced Conflict into the world. It is considered the sire of Air and is called the power of Becoming."  I can certainly buy the idea that it can create something, but not sure that it 'causes' permanence.

From the same source re: Stasis: "The various names for this Rune - such as Immobility, Unchanging, Solidity, Stone - illustrate the ideas behind it. The dwarves claim that this is the First Rune, for it provided the foundation from which everything else was created, or else provided the foundation of hard laws that were used to overcome the forces of Chaos. Content, satisfied, and stable, it is often called the power of Being."  Plenty to indicate stability and permanence there.

[Joerg]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As noted in the Sourcebook, "Restless and ambitious, Change introduced Conflict into the world. It is considered the sire of Air and is called the power of Becoming."  I can certainly buy the idea that it can create something, but not sure that it 'causes' permanence.

If you really alter the nature of something, it doesn't revert back. If you just stabilize a temporary alteration by application of stasis, it will revert.

Coming from a chemistry background, I would apply the Change rune to irreversible processes, while the Stasis rune forms the basis of reversible processes through ongoing equilibrium.

But while thermodynamics can be used to describe all manner of processes (not limited to chemical ones, but e.g. also computational ones), its application to Gloranthan magic may not always be useful.

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

If you really alter the nature of something, it doesn't revert back. If you just stabilize a temporary alteration by application of stasis, it will revert.

Yes, a good example of that is that Seed of Larnste applied to the Earth Cube of Gata creating the mountain mother Kero Fin. This yielded something new (though one could argue that she took the form of the Spike which already existed or the form of the Stasis Rune which also existed).  She has not changed form since though.  Does that mean she is simply imbued with the power of Change, or that it allowed her to Become something else which then became her Being?

There's not necessarily a guarantee that a Change will become stable, either.  It could become transient and Illusory, or Disordered and breakable, or perpetually changing.

 

[Pentallion]

Not many Enchanters here huh?

Helm of enemy detection.  1 POW for binding enchantment.  Magic spirit with detect enemy.  2 pts POW to bind into  enchantment because magic spirits have Int and Power. Then condition - everyone forget conditions? - for 1 POW that magic spirit casts detect enemy whenever someone has ill intent upon wearer.  Total cost 4 POW.

+4 broadsword.  Same deal but condition is magic spirit casts bladesharp 4 whenever sword is drawn from scabbard.

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

Not many Enchanters here huh?

Enchanters are people who tap themselves to create some item. 

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

Helm of enemy detection.  1 POW for binding enchantment.  Magic spirit with detect enemy.  2 pts POW to bind into  enchantment because magic spirits have Int and Power. Then condition - everyone forget conditions? - for 1 POW that magic spirit casts detect enemy whenever someone has ill intent upon wearer.  Total cost 4 POW.

For an item that is on as long as your magic spirit has MP, so you had better add an MP matrix to make sure it lasts beyond the first five seconds of a tribal moot, and a couple of POW spirits to refill it. On the bright side, the attuned wearer of the helmet might tap into the same MP reservoir.

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

+4 broadsword.  Same deal but condition is magic spirit casts bladesharp 4 whenever sword is drawn from scabbard.

So you have to resheathe it every few dozen combat rounds? I would make the condition "make sure the spell is on when I intend to strike with the weapon." The Mindlink to sense the intent is usually implicit in a triggerable enchantment.

Your solutions provide readiness, but no permanence. To have a single item a bit more reliably powered you need about 10 POW (and that's before armoring enchantment on the item so it doesn't get destroyed upon first contact with an enemy blow), and that still will run out of juice after very few hours. Some battles last significantly longer than that.

So basically, your +4 broadsword had better eaten up about 15 POW to last beyond a few parries, and possibly on enchanted Rune Metal to give it further durability. And even then it won't last for eternity, although if you place the echantment in the grip of the sword, it might survive and gain a new blade.

How long does it take a priest to regain those 15 POW? About three years, if every seasonal holy day provides a POW gain, and going without expanding his rune point pool (except from maybe a bit adventuring, and if that's the case, he will keep the item to himself). And you need at least acolyte rank to get that benefit, meaning a supporting group of better than 100 initiates. Or a couple of volunteers selling their own POW through extended Mindlink when performing the enchantment.

RQ3 POW logistics are prohibitive against this kind of magical items.

[Pentallion]

Spirit magic lasts 25 rds in RQ3.  Not sure in RQ2