Casualty rate in Gloranthan battles?

[MOB]

On 22/02/2018 at 12:53 AM, M Helsdon said:

Heroes and demigods can often bring themselves out of the Land of the Dead and return with little apparent change to the world of the living. This is not a reliable process, and history is full of tales of Heroes who eventually failed to return.

We've got rules for running or playing Heroes as PCs in the new RQG:

"...Heroes gain an increasing presence in the otherworld, which becomes a tremendous source of power, but also requires that the hero be worshiped to maintain it (that worship can be regular or propitiatory). A hero can return from the dead, and can gain other abilities such as unaging as a result of heroquest gifts. Heroes no longer need to be "super-skilled" - their "Hero Soul" and heroquest gifts enables them to do remarkable things, even if their actual skills are in the range of a Rune Lord or Priest."

https://www.chaosium.com/blog/designing-the-new-runequest-part-10

[M Helsdon]

On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 11:11 AM, Jeff said:

Martin Helsdon has put together an excellent resource booklet on the subject, that I personally use as my go-to reference book.

 

Hi Jeff,

Have made a few changes to the 'booklet' and have a few more planned. I have also received a few requests for access (possibly because of this post, which I've only just noticed), but have directed them to you, as it infringes your copyright material. There's now a shorter 94 page draft in DropBox, in addition to the 300 page version (which is about to grow...)

New material will relate to shields (having read a few more books on the 'archaic' period of Greek warfare, there are a number of new shield types to add) and there's a significant factor relating to the comparison of shield-wall versus phalanx, amongst other things. Most of the new things about chariots have already been included (but possibly not in the version you have).

Edited March 2, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Jeff]

On 2/26/2018 at 12:14 AM, MOB said:

We've got rules for running or playing Heroes as PCs in the new RQG:

"...Heroes gain an increasing presence in the otherworld, which becomes a tremendous source of power, but also requires that the hero be worshiped to maintain it (that worship can be regular or propitiatory). A hero can return from the dead, and can gain other abilities such as unaging as a result of heroquest gifts. Heroes no longer need to be "super-skilled" - their "Hero Soul" and heroquest gifts enables them to do remarkable things, even if their actual skills are in the range of a Rune Lord or Priest."

https://www.chaosium.com/blog/designing-the-new-runequest-part-10

Well not in the core rules - the rules for heroes are in a forthcoming book (either in the cults book or in the "secrets" book - depending on page count of those). There's enough in RQG to keep you all busy for a long time....

 

Jeff

[Jon Hunter]

On 3/2/2018 at 10:07 PM, M Helsdon said:

Hi Jeff,

Have made a few changes to the 'booklet' and have a few more planned. I have also received a few requests for access (possibly because of this post, which I've only just noticed), but have directed them to you, as it infringes your copyright material. There's now a shorter 94 page draft in DropBox, in addition to the 300 page version (which is about to grow...)

New material will relate to shields (having read a few more books on the 'archaic' period of Greek warfare, there are a number of new shield types to add) and there's a significant factor relating to the comparison of shield-wall versus phalanx, amongst other things. Most of the new things about chariots have already been included (but possibly not in the version you have).

Hi,

Have you got aNy stuff on logistics especially in terms of the lunar administration. 

Griffin mountain suggests lunar logistic capacity is significant. Does this bear out in a wider context?

Jon

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Have you got aNy stuff on logistics especially in terms of the lunar administration. 

Griffin mountain suggests lunar logistic capacity is significant. Does this bear out in a wider context?

I have a great deal on logistics, ranging from what an infantryman requires, to speculations upon high level Lunar logistics. I'm not certain if I am at liberty to share the material...

[Jon Hunter]

15 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I have a great deal on logistics, ranging from what an infantryman requires, to speculations upon high level Lunar logistics. I'm not certain if I am at liberty to share the material...

Broadly speaking it sounds like the Lunars have complex logistics structures more similar to the Romans than the usual earth bronze age arrangements ( with the odd exception.)

That's how I read Griffin Mountain and how I have interpreted you answer, would you concur?
 

[Joerg]

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Broadly speaking it sounds like the Lunars have complex logistics structures more similar to the Romans than the usual earth bronze age arrangements ( with the odd exception.)

They use coins, so of course they are way more advanced than any earth bronze age arrangement.

But I don't think we should underestimate the bronze age and "barbarian" iron age ability to organize huge troop movements. The Migration Age is full of entire tribes taking to a migratory form, and maintaining that _in force_ for years. Cimbri and Teutons were on the march for years, giving Marius time to reform the legions and train them up to a standard to be able to stand through their onslaught and cause damage. The migration of the Goths (which included taking Rome by force) was likewise a mobile force maintained for years. Caesar's report on the attempted Helvetii migration lingers at their thorough preparations, giving up their sedentary achievements and producing a train that easily had to be as efficient as Caesar's own.

Rather than admiring the Romans, I think we should look at Alexander the Great or Hannibal's achievements (and failures). I don't really see the Gloranthan armies as following the Marian reforms to the military, but closer to the older form of hoplites being accompanied by servants or slaves, doubling the head-count of such a unit with non- or semi-combatants (those servants often doubled as skirmishers in the early phases of a battle if free men).

 

The existence of Angus Farquilis as Master of Wagons indicates that the Lunars do indeed recognize logistics as a key to operating in a country without leaving it devastated (as most of my barbarian examples apparently did, and as did military forces as late as the 30 years war armies).

Another unexpected place to find masters of logistics are the Plains of Prax which require herds to support significant military forces. If you look more closely, that goes for the Independents (who get to "cheat" in the Nomad Gods boardgame), too.

[Jon Hunter]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Rather than admiring the Romans, I think we should look at Alexander the Great or Hannibal's achievements (and failures). I don't really see the Gloranthan armies as following the Marian reforms to the military, but closer to the older form of hoplites being accompanied by servants or slaves, doubling the head-count of such a unit with non- or semi-combatants (those servants often doubled as skirmishers in the early phases of a battle if free men).

Alexander was the earlier commander who was the exception i meant and is a good early example of logistics.

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The existence of Angus Farquilis as Master of Wagons indicates that the Lunars do indeed recognize logistics as a key to operating in a country without leaving it devastated (as most of my barbarian examples apparently did, and as did military forces as late as the 30 years war armies).

Ok here you encounter my  working definition of logistics, leaving off the land and leaving devastation isn't using effective logistics. Logistics as i'm referring to it separate logistic structures, and the existence of planned supply lines that enable army's to move fast and not devastate the surrounding population.

The existence of Angus Farquilis answers my core question its a detail id either overlooked or more likely forgot. I'd just defined some lunar logistics stuff in Filicher for my games was just checking it fitted the setting in a moment of self doubt .

 

 

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

[Joerg]

The Egyptian campaigns in northern Canaan were grounded in well-prepared logistics, too, up to and including preparing ships for overland transport so that the Euphrates could be crossed at will. Likewise the great Persian advance on Greece under Xerxes was a masterpiece of logistics.

Nevertheless, the presence of a huge army is always going to cost much of the present harvest and of the herds remaining within easy reach, regardless how good the logistics are.

The devastations left by the Cimbri and Teutones were nothing permanent, but may have threatened or destroyed the existence of local farmers. But that's a risk that comes with the occupation, really.

 

[Grievous]

46 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Alexander was the earlier commander who was the exception i meant and is a good early example of logistics.

Ok here you encounter my  working definition of logistics, leaving off the land and leaving devastation isn't using effective logistics. Logistics as i'm referring to it separate logistic structures, and the existence of planned supply lines that enable army's to move fast and not devastate the surrounding population.

The existence of Angus Farquilis answers my core question its a detail id either overlooked or more likely forgot. I'd just defined some lunar logistics stuff in Filicher for my games was just checking it fitted the setting in a moment of self doubt .

I don't think we should assume that Gloranthan logistics goes beyond foraging and living off the land completely, even for the Lunars. The existence of Farquilis indeed implies that they recognize logistics as important, but to me it certainly doesn't mean that they aren't foraging/living off the land. Indeed, Farquilis and his organization could be there to partially organize and coordinate just these foraging activities in an efficient manner! Otherwise, I think we'd be looking at far too modern logistical practices.

That said, certainly I do think Farquilis/the Lunars also coordinate goods (and services, both mundane and religio-magical) from their supply bases for their field armies and garrisons, to some extent. Further, a large part of their job is to organize local merchants to provide them with what they need in distant areas. This means - we should note - the bringing-in of coin to pay for these merchants (which is a logistical challenge in itself).

However, I think there will always be times when the Lunar army simply takes what it needs from the local population. Of course, this is not sustainable (economically or diplomatically), so they have these other measures setup as well and they will hopefully take primacy in more peaceful periods where they supply garrisons, with the army spread out in more manageable chunks and so. But when armies gather, they will have to resort to foraging to sustain the huge logistical requirements and this will be a considerable burden on the local population/lands at the best of times and an absolute ravaging at the worst.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Grievous
typo

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Broadly speaking it sounds like the Lunars have complex logistics structures more similar to the Romans than the usual earth bronze age arrangements ( with the odd exception.)
 

Most civilized Gloranthan military technology (at least in central Genertela) is roughly equivalent to that of the 3rd or 4th Century BC. The Persian Empire, Alexander the Great, and his Successors all had relatively complex logistical systems, reliant upon roads, and depots. An army of that era of any size simply couldn't survive by foraging or relying upon independent sutlers turning up at convenient times (the problems encountered by the Ten Thousand during their long retreat provides ample illustration of the difficulties involved). Given that the Lunar Army has close parallels with the Persian and the Macedonian armies, it will require similar forms of supply. Without it, no major force can operate more than sixty miles or so from its home base.

Central Genertela is 'Bronze Age' because bronze is more common than iron (once smelting techniques were developed, the opposite is true in our world) and because it closely mirrors the sort of world most Bronze Age cultures believed they inhabited. The apparent military technologies (hoplite phalanxes, cataphracti etc.) are all early to middle Iron Age, and the necessary logistic would be as well.

Edited March 6, 2018 by M Helsdon

[David Scott]

On 21/02/2018 at 10:32 AM, Akhôrahil said:

and disease deaths on campaign are at the very least a lot less common.

I'm not so sure about that. Mallia is a Death Goddess and will be attracted to places like battlefields where lives are slowly ebbing away or being maintained near death. The wounded aren't tended so quickly and wait. Not a problem in small exchanges, it's large battles I'm talking about. Unless of course you propitiate her before the battle, and I'm not talking knowing there broos in the opposing side. Mallia is part of Glorantha and will get stronger as the Hero Wars breaks. 

[David Scott]

On 21/02/2018 at 8:43 AM, M Helsdon said:

Human Sacrifice

It shouldn't be forgotten that the Glowline is powered by sacrifices at the Reaching Moon temples. I'd suspect that the higher the "value" of the sacrifice the more energy Yara Aranis puts into it. I'm sure they need sufficient sacrifices all year round.

[M Helsdon]

8 hours ago, Grievous said:

I don't think we should assume that Gloranthan logistics goes beyond foraging and living off the land completely, even for the Lunars.

Logistics: Foraging

A well-farmed countryside can sustain a modestly sized army passing through. However, supplying an army by foraging requires organization and planning – to rely upon foraging for a significant period can lead to disaster as the army runs out of food. The season also affects the viability of foraging, as the primary campaigning season coincides with the growing season.

If the enemy elects to ravage the territory through which an army must travel, then this deprives it of the opportunity for foraging and requisitioning supplies. The simplest method is the firing of fields and the burning of granaries, at the cost of starving the populace.

In addition to gathering supplies, foragers can have an intelligence function as scouts, but if captured themselves can reveal information to the enemy.

Foraging sometimes means seeking fodder for mounts and transport animals, but more broadly includes obtaining water, gathering wood for fires and the palisades of encampments, and foodstuffs such as animals and grain. In some instances, foraging parties must stop to harvest crops from the fields or mow fodder for their animals, which requires time and resources. Taking from civilian granaries and other storehouses after the harvest is far easier.

Foraging can seriously reduce the rate of march for an army, even when mounted parties are sent ahead. It is impractical for an army on a forced march to rely upon obtaining supplies from the countryside it is traveling through.

Most armies attempt to forage only one day in four, because of the inherent delays in finding and obtaining provisions. Cavalry scouts may be sent out to find a source of supplies well in advance of the main army.

Even in friendly territory peasants and farmers may baulk at their crops and animals being requisitioned. Before harvest there is rarely a surplus to be commandeered or seized. Outside the large estates, many farms operate at or near a subsistence level, and hunger before harvest is not uncommon.

In unfriendly territory, pillaging is more likely, with provisions being seized, and with a high likelihood of the destruction of property and young women and children being carried off as slaves. Plundering is usually an act of individual soldiers, but may also occur systematically at the level of regiments and armies, with the booty being redistributed by the quartermasters.

For those suffering such foraging the distinction is unimportant. When news comes of approaching troops many communities and farms seek to hide their provisions and valuables.

Foraging becomes increasingly difficult if an army is stationary in an encampment or conducting a siege. Food and fodder must be obtained from increasingly distant sources. Supply lines become stretched and increasingly vulnerable.

Disease, thirst and starvation are often greater foes to an army than its enemy. An army spending too long in one place without adequate hygiene and supplies will crumble as its manpower succumb and die. Basic hygiene and healing magics will delay this.

Logistics: Water

Adequate supplies of potable water are essential. An army consumes massive quantities of water, which must be obtained from wells, springs, streams and rivers.

Village and oasis wells take effort and time to lift sufficient water to the surface to supply even a small force. Similarly, springs provide only limited quantities. Water flowing in rivers is far more accessible as large numbers of men and animals can simultaneously quench their thirst.

The Orlanthi can summon clouds and rain, but this is little more than a temporary solution. Rain can be caught in helmets and buckets but is rarely adequate for a large body of troops, especially if they include any cavalry.

Crossing tracts of land with little or no water places major stresses upon an army.

Edited March 6, 2018 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'm not so sure about that. Mallia is a Death Goddess and will be attracted to places like battlefields where lives are slowly ebbing away or being maintained near death. The wounded aren't tended so quickly and wait. Not a problem in small exchanges, it's large battles I'm talking about. Unless of course you propitiate her before the battle, and I'm not talking knowing there broos in the opposing side. Mallia is part of Glorantha and will get stronger as the Hero Wars breaks. 

My speculations...

Disease spirits are often invisible but when they manifest look like distorted gray figures with skeletal limbs and gaping empty orifices. Rarely useful in battle, they can infect troops in camp, weakening units with infection and disease.

These spirits seem to be drawn to large concentrations of people embodying the Death Rune, making them a danger to temporary military encampments which rarely have the defenses of a permanent camp.

----------------

When armies of different cultures clash, enemy dead may be left to decay, especially in enemy territory, or mutilated or despoiled. Hands or heads might be taken to allow a counting of the dead, and then left to rot. Often piles of corpses attract disease spirits and ghouls, in addition to any unquiet ghosts.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Logistics: Foraging

A well-farmed countryside can sustain a modestly sized army passing through. However, supplying an army by foraging requires organization and planning – to rely upon foraging for a significant period can lead to disaster as the army runs out of food. The season also affects the viability of foraging, as the primary campaigning season coincides with the growing season.

Campaigning in Fire Season means that the only recent harvest will be hay. Grain reserves in the villages will be low, but there will be fresh vegetables and not quite ripe grain on the stalks, providing decent fodder if harvested prematurely, but miserable food. If the foragers have access to agricultural spells like Sunripen that might help them a lot.

 

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Foraging sometimes means seeking fodder for mounts and transport animals, but more broadly includes obtaining water, gathering wood for fires and the palisades of encampments, and foodstuffs such as animals and grain. In some instances, foraging parties must stop to harvest crops from the fields or mow fodder for their animals, which requires time and resources. Taking from civilian granaries and other storehouses after the harvest is far easier.

That would mean campaigning in Earth Season, meaning you need a standing army uninvolved in agricultural activities (other than foraging). This is the downside to "every man a warrior" in chiefdom societies, but much less of a problem for societies that have standing armies like the Lunars or the West.

 

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Even in friendly territory peasants and farmers may baulk at their crops and animals being requisitioned. Before harvest there is rarely a surplus to be commandeered or seized. Outside the large estates, many farms operate at or near a subsistence level, and hunger before harvest is not uncommon.

In unfriendly territory, pillaging is more likely, with provisions being seized, and with a high likelihood of the destruction of property and young women and children being carried off as slaves. Plundering is usually an act of individual soldiers, but may also occur systematically at the level of regiments and armies, with the booty being redistributed by the quartermasters.

For those suffering such foraging the distinction is unimportant. When news comes of approaching troops many communities and farms seek to hide their provisions and valuables.

True. They will also hide their able-bodied young folk to avoid them being press-ganged into auxiliaries or as servants or stress relief company to the warriors. To little avail, really, because the best foragers are those who come from agricultural places like this and who have seen foraging from the other side.

 

Smaller scale foraging is done by the servants of the warriors on a daily level. That's part of camp life.

[M Helsdon]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Campaigning in Fire Season means that the only recent harvest will be hay. Grain reserves in the villages will be low, but there will be fresh vegetables and not quite ripe grain on the stalks, providing decent fodder if harvested prematurely, but miserable food. If the foragers have access to agricultural spells like Sunripen that might help them a lot.

Not enough to feed an army of any significant size. If you are talking about a Dark Ages 'army' (which from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles) could be less than a hundred men, possibly only thirty, then foraging will suffice.

However, if your army consists of regiments of a thousand soldiers, or five hundred troopers and mounts, foraging before the harvest is in, is insufficient. Men and horses in those numbers require significant food and water, and things that often get forgotten, like firewood.

Nomadic 'armies' are subject to very different constraints to a state army.

Sun ripen won't help at all (has to be cast in Spring to affect the later harvest).

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

That would mean campaigning in Earth Season, meaning you need a standing army uninvolved in agricultural activities (other than foraging). This is the downside to "every man a warrior" in chiefdom societies, but much less of a problem for societies that have standing armies like the Lunars or the West.

True, and is why societies in central Genertela with a standing army have a massive advantage over volunteer militia armies (freedom of a longer campaigning season, plus, of course, the usual benefits of professional over amateur). An Orlanthi weaponthane may have armor and experience equivalent to a Lunar Centurion, but his warband won't be as large, as well-equipped, or as well-trained as the Centurion's company.

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Smaller scale foraging is done by the servants of the warriors on a daily level. That's part of camp life.

Having a large number of servants and other camp followers increases the logistics load, and an army in the field is rarely in any but temporary camps. It doesn't work on campaign, unless your campaign only takes you two or three day's travel from home, and you are engaged in a hit-and-run raid.

That's why, at times, the Macedonians shed themselves of the servants, wives, children, etc. because they slow down an army, and have to be fed. By the time the army reached India, the number of the followers had increased again, and they suffered most in the disastrous march through (ahem)  Carmania, when his logistical planning failed. The fleet was supposed to drop off supplies along the line of march along the coast, but the Macedonians didn't know about the effect of the monsoon (their Indian 'hosts' doubtless neglected to tell them) and so Nearchus' fleet couldn't sail, and only met up with the survivors of the army in Gedrosia, after tens of thousands had died during the march through the desert. It's the one example where Alexander's genius (or that of his generals) for logistics failed.

Once in Persia, the Macedonians benefited from the infrastructure of the Persian Empire (roads, depots, postal system) much of which, in Mesopotamia, the Persians inherited from the Assyrians. Alexander made use of this infrastructure, and his campaigns were mostly based on the availability of supply. None of this infrastructure was in place in Carmania, because it was a virtually uninhabited wasteland.

If you study a map of the Lunar Empire, as I have, the logistical infrastructure is very clearly in place, and strongly aided by the Oslir. Once the Lunar forces crossed the continental divide, their logistical problems became more difficult, which is why the failure of the political alliance with Nochet was a major factor in their defeat.

Edited March 7, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Jon Hunter]

As a note from the limited research i've done its considered that Alexander was way ahead of his time, and is the exception that period and not the rule.

Though it seems the Assyrians, Persians and Egyptians also had some grasp of military logistics.

It would seem if intended or not the different logistical strengths have had a significant effect on the military history of the different cultures, organised empires have had the ability launch large scale wars of invasion,  tribal cultures are morel limited to raids, defensive wars and border skirmishes because they don't have the ability to keep large scale forces in the field for protracted periods.

This definitley pans out when looking at the Lunars and Orlanthi in the third age, is this consistent across the rest of Glorantha?

[M Helsdon]

41 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

As a note from the limited research i've done its considered that Alexander was way ahead of his time, and is the exception that period and not the rule.

Alexander was able to exploit the sophisticated Persian logistics infrastructure, effectively taking it over as he won battles and rolled into new territories. Even allowing for the usual exaggeration, in the first Persian invasion of Greece, the Persians had sent many tens of thousands (ancient sources claim up to two hundred thousand) into Greece, deploying an even larger force in their second invasion of Greece (claimed to be around half a million). Even if the claimed numbers are reduced by moving the decimal point, an army of twenty thousand or fifty thousand requires an elaborate system of supply, for the four essentials: food, fodder, firewood and water. Even if only most of the food and half the fodder was transported, that still requires a major system of depots, supply ships, and staging areas.

Alexander was fortunate that in many instances the local authorities rapidly submitted ahead of his line of march, and didn't burn the supplies held in the granaries and depots. If the Persian governmental system hadn't unraveled so quickly, he would have been in dire straits.

For Glorantha, something similar can be seen as the Lunar supply and staging center at Alda-Chur was captured by Argrath, and then Tarsh first went into civil war and then joined him, meaning that all the Lunar logistics system along the Oslir became vulnerable.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Alexander was able to exploit the sophisticated Persian logistics infrastructure, effectively taking it over as he won battles and rolled into new territories. Even allowing for the usual exaggeration, in the first Persian invasion of Greece, the Persians had sent many tens of thousands (ancient sources claim up to two hundred thousand) into Greece, deploying an even larger force in their second invasion of Greece (claimed to be around half a million). Even if the claimed numbers are reduced by moving the decimal point, an army of twenty thousand or fifty thousand requires an elaborate system of supply, for the four essentials: food, fodder, firewood and water. Even if only most of the food and half the fodder was transported, that still requires a major system of depots, supply ships, and staging areas.

Alexander was fortunate that in many instances the local authorities rapidly submitted ahead of his line of march, and didn't burn the supplies held in the granaries and depots. If the Persian governmental system hadn't unraveled so quickly, he would have been in dire straits.

For Glorantha, something similar can be seen as the Lunar supply and staging center at Alda-Chur was captured by Argrath, and then Tarsh first went into civil war and then joined him, meaning that all the Lunar logistics system along the Oslir became vulnerable.

And isn't it interesting that Fazzur, father of Onjur and Anstad, Argrath's Lunar allies, is one of the better logistical planners in the Empire? That's the impression I always had from WF #12. His insistence on the importance of Nochet and Karse in Imperial strategy underscores this. He was "retired" in 1625 but his sons were already active on Argrath's side... The GS even implies Fazzur was advising Argrath (p.41).

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

And isn't it interesting that Fazzur, father of Onjur and Anstad, Argrath's Lunar allies, is one of the better logistical planners in the Empire? That's the impression I always had from WF #12. His insistence on the importance of Nochet and Karse in Imperial strategy underscores this. He was "retired" in 1625 but his sons were already active on Argrath's side... The GS even implies Fazzur was advising Argrath (p.41).

Nochet was absolutely essential for Lunar military operations in the south, the failure to take the city, and the Dragonrise, were the reason why Lunar military power went into an abrupt decline. Both Karse and Nochet were on the very limits (if not beyond them) of Lunar supply lines.

[Joerg]

If Fazzur had succeeded to keep Hendira in power in Nochet, supply lines from the heartlands would have been rather meaningless. The Heartlands already relied on the Provinces for civilian supply, like maize. With the Tarsh river barges failing to procure grain for the Heartlands, the empire will have to struggle to keep its population fed.

Imperial supply lines rely heavily on river transport. Crossing the Dragonspine means that they are cut off from that resource, and have to rely on King Sartar's network of overland routes instead, even with Duck Point as transshipping point down the Creekstream and Lyksos river.

Pavis, Corflu and the Zola Fel were little more than a tactical ploy to get some sea access, and instrumental in Fazzur's capture of Karse. Karse controls the eastern transshipment of goods coming across the Pass, but has hardly any hinterland, and requires support. Nochet needs the support of rural Esrolia, but if it has that, its capacities are a multiple of those of Tarsh. Little use beyond the Dragonspine, but able to support a big fighting force down south.

20 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

It would seem if intended or not the different logistical strengths have had a significant effect on the military history of the different cultures, organised empires have had the ability launch large scale wars of invasion,  tribal cultures are morel limited to raids, defensive wars and border skirmishes because they don't have the ability to keep large scale forces in the field for protracted periods.

Tribal cultures may find charismatic leaders getting them into migration mode, basically putting them in a temporarily nomad mode.  When that happens, empires fall since the border arrangements are only made for repelling raids, not invasions where every able-bodied tribesman becomes a warrior in the field. And without regard for harvests for a few years, the barbarians have the advantage over the empire which doesn't usally have the herds to catch up some of the missing harvest.

For the migrating tribes, it is a win or die situation, though.

 

But Argrath does not head a migration. If anything, he copies Arkat's model of recruiting new local forces and hanging on to those original forces of his that he manages to keep around.

 

The Kingdom of War does resemble a Migration era force in some respects, turned up to eleven. Their logistics are quite trollish or ghoulish, provisioning themselves from the battlefields and the civilian population. And we have no idea what might arise far behind its circle of devastation.

20 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

This definitley pans out when looking at the Lunars and Orlanthi in the third age, is this consistent across the rest of Glorantha?

The Orlanthi are the only tribal culture in contact with empires (Lunars, Loskalm, Tanisor). Jonatela is on the verge of becoming an empire.

Kralorela relies on isolation through mountains and dragon powers, and only has nomads and the ignorants as neighbors on the land. The Sea of Fog forms a pretty good border to naval invaders, although it would have been interesting if Harrek had turned north rather than south from Teshnos.

Vormain has no real rivals once it gives up its isolation, until they encounter the Andins.

Pamaltela is rather de-centralized, without any major empires. Maybe more populous units that Ralios in Fonrit, but split into factions much like Safelster.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

If Fazzur had succeeded to keep Hendira in power in Nochet, supply lines from the heartlands would have been rather meaningless.

Precisely. The Lunar supply lines into the south are fairly limited; moving sufficient materiel by land and river that far was supremely difficult. Without local supply, the Holy Country and the Zola Fel valley are at the very limits of supply.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Heartlands already relied on the Provinces for civilian supply, like maize. With the Tarsh river barges failing to procure grain for the Heartlands, the empire will have to struggle to keep its population fed.

The Provinces are more than just Tarsh, which lies at the end of the major transit route into the empire; there's a great deal of productive land in the river valleys of the Provinces. The Great Winter and the nomad invasion of Oraya would have reduced supply into the Heartlands, but given that the river valleys of Peloria are heavily populated by rural Lodrilli farmers, the impact on the Heartlands wouldn't be as bad as you assume.

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Tribal cultures may find charismatic leaders getting them into migration mode, basically putting them in a temporarily nomad mode.  When that happens, empires fall since the border arrangements are only made for repelling raids, not invasions where every able-bodied tribesman becomes a warrior in the field. And without regard for harvests for a few years, the barbarians have the advantage over the empire which doesn't usally have the herds to catch up some of the missing harvest.

The real world mass migrations often ended badly for the tribes, as their logistical infrastructure is non-existent, and compared with state military power, their forces were poorly armed, poorly disciplined, and poorly trained. They only succeeded when the state was already in a weakened condition. The Cimbri, Teutones,  Ambrones, Marcomanni and Quadi, and the tribes that became the Goths all fared very badly against the Romans when they were at their height. Only centuries later, due to political and economic factors (possibly driven by severe climate change in the 4th to  5th century AD driven by the changes in North Atlantic Oscillation) did the barbarians overrun the borders. In 376 AD the Gothic peoples begged for permission to cross into the Roman Empire, but the empire couldn't feed them, leading to revolts, the sack of Rome, the collapse of Roman hegemony in the West, and tribal kingdoms being carved out in Gaul, Thrace, Iberia, North Africa and Italy, though several didn't survive the subsequent counter-attack by the Roman East.

Migrating tribes who can't seize crops and herds are rapidly in a very weak state, which is why the Goths begged entrance into the empire, because the Huns were rapidly encroaching their eastern flank. Lack of crops to raise or seize rapidly leads to starvation. Agricultural tribal people in migration often simply disappear from history.

[Yelm's Light]

Hmm wasn't that 476?

[Joerg]

20 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Provinces are more than just Tarsh, which lies at the end of the major transit route into the empire; there's a great deal of productive land in the river valleys of the Provinces. The Great Winter and the nomad invasion of Oraya would have reduced supply into the Heartlands, but given that the river valleys of Peloria are heavily populated by rural Lodrilli farmers, the impact on the Heartlands wouldn't be as bad as you assume.

Not in rural areas, where farmers alost always find ways to hang on to enough food and seeds to last into the next agricultural cycle regardless of taxation and requisitions, but the urban mobs upheld by maize bread distributed by Teelo Norri and similar Lunar charities will be hit badly, and then cause all manners of serious trouble.

At least that's what I still think about Heartland urban populations led (or led astray) by Lunar populists, as often as not directly inspired by her Redness (or madness) rather than acting through an imperially sanctioned cult. We All Are Us is a fairly heavy tax burden if those prole mobs suddenly are considered holy people of some kind.

While Victor Hugo's Paris in Les Miserables or the Hunchback of Notre Dame may be way to modern for the Bronze Age society of Dara Happa, the underworld shown in the Rome TV series mixed with religious fanaticism might work in a place and time closer to Babylon, too.

 

20 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The real world mass migrations often ended badly for the tribes, as their logistical infrastructure is non-existent, and compared with state military power, their forces were poorly armed, poorly disciplined, and poorly trained. They only succeeded when the state was already in a weakened condition. The Cimbri, Teutones,  Ambrones, Marcomanni and Quadi, and the tribes that became the Goths all fared very badly against the Romans when they were at their height.

I think that wIthout the Marian reforms, the Cimbri and Teutones would have been as bad news for the Romans as the Celtic migration under Brennus two centuries earlier, and Rome's reaction against the subsequent invaders in the next two centuries all benefitted from that.

Sort of makes me wonder whether Hwarin Dalthippa is the Lunar equivalent to the Marian reforms for dealing with the Barbarians, or whether her taking over Sylila had more in common with Caesar's acquisition of transalpine Gallia putting such troops on the offensive rather than the defensive. There is a distinct possibility that dealing with the hill barbarians follows Carmanian doctrine.

20 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Only centuries later, due to political and economic factors (possibly driven by severe climate change in the 4th to  5th century AD driven by the changes in North Atlantic Oscillation) did the barbarians overrun the borders. In 376 AD the Gothic peoples begged for permission to cross into the Roman Empire, but the empire couldn't feed them, leading to revolts, the sack of Rome, the collapse of Roman hegemony in the West, and tribal kingdoms being carved out in Gaul, Thrace, Iberia, North Africa and Italy, though several didn't survive the subsequent counter-attack by the Roman East.

The problems basically started when the Romans stopped hiring them as legionaries or foederati for their internal and external security. Using up their regular forces in civil war and turning the limitati to a role not that different from chiefdom warriors certainly contributed.

The eastern counter-attacks occurred only after the tribal nobility had adopted Roman ways. The Ostrogoths with their apartheit due to their Arian confession may have been the least romanized opponents of the Byzantine reconquista. The Vandals were thoroughly Romanized when Belisarius conquered them, out of their own desire, and bore little similarity to the effective barbarians under Geiserich who had received such bad press that the term vandalism persists into our days.

If I interprete Jeff's recurring statements correctly, the northern Orlanthi are as willing to adopt the civilized trappings of their northern neighbors. The Yelmalio conversion probably profited greatly from this tendency. Only where Esrolia or fancy western stuff provides a closer role model. Pelorian trappings may be less prominent. However, the Sarotar murder did a lot to make it less fashionable to ape Nochet, maybe not up to the de-Frenching that occurred during and after the 100 Years War in Britain, but certainly measurable.

And for all the traditionalist disgust of Meldeks, Malkioni trappings and concepts did seep into Kethaela. Maybe not as "Heortland knights" since knghts have been re-written out of Glorantha, but in similar ways. (And I don't mean just Belintar's adoption of Jrusteli administration.)

20 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Migrating tribes who can't seize crops and herds are rapidly in a very weak state, which is why the Goths begged entrance into the empire, because the Huns were rapidly encroaching their eastern flank. Lack of crops to raise or seize rapidly leads to starvation. Agricultural tribal people in migration often simply disappear from history.

And leaving no spectacular ruins behind them, might be forgotten more easily. The cause for the Anglo-Saxon migration for instance is largely unknown, although a century of local warfare precedes a century of unknown whereabouts of the Angles and Saxons from around Anglia.

Then there is a distinct lack of tribal identity when migratory groups merge. I keep remaining uncomfortable to use the term "clan" for the continental hundreds or Sippen, and I am far from certain that these social units survived participation in a migration. Bloodlines would persist, of course, but the social unit may have shifted when no longer defined by the land claim that defined these units. And from certain story-lines in King of Dragon Pass, clans were re-formed and merged a lot during the Resettlement of Dragon Pass, too. While a few groups might rightfully claim a continuation of clan identity from before those migrations, in most cases it is a polite and political fiction. The Colymar clan was formed in Kethaela for the purpose of the migration, for instance, and had no real separate identity before that.

The Helvetii are the poster boy case for a failed migration, but not due to bad logistics - rather due to a surprise new player.

The later empire possibly faced too many immigrants at once to properly assimilate them as the Huns, climate change and/or (resulting) local warfare drove northern tribes beyond the limes. Not for lack of willingness, as the Vandal example shows, but simply for lack of time.

In this regard, the Lunar empire with its inclusive doctrine is vastly different from its Dara Happan predecessor. The Carmanians as conquerers did not mind very much whether a subject population was indigenous or rather recently invaded the place, as long as they remained subject and provided their dues.