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Casualty rate in Gloranthan battles?

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Not in rural areas, where farmers alost always find ways to hang on to enough food and seeds to last into the next agricultural cycle regardless of taxation and requisitions, but the urban mobs upheld by maize bread distributed by Teelo Norri and similar Lunar charities will be hit badly, and then cause all manners of serious trouble.

At least that's what I still think about Heartland urban populations led (or led astray) by Lunar populists, as often as not directly inspired by her Redness (or madness) rather than acting through an imperially sanctioned cult. We All Are Us is a fairly heavy tax burden if those prole mobs suddenly are considered holy people of some kind.

The Pelorian lowland river valleys are the site of extensive agriculture, not unlike that in Mesopotamia before the Mongols destroyed the irrigation system.

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think that wIthout the Marian reforms, the Cimbri and Teutones would have been as bad news for the Romans as the Celtic migration under Brennus two centuries earlier, and Rome's reaction against the subsequent invaders in the next two centuries all benefitted from that.

I fear you are getting your Brennus mixed up. The Brennus who attacked Rome was engaged in what was effectively a massive raid, not a migration. The later Brennus who was one of the leaders an attempted migration into Greece committed suicide after his migration turned into a raid which had to retreat. Some of 'his' followers formed a small kingdom, Tylis, but it didn't last very long.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The problems basically started when the Romans stopped hiring them as legionaries or foederati for their internal and external security. Using up their regular forces in civil war and turning the limitati to a role not that different from chiefdom warriors certainly contributed.

Um. No.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

And leaving no spectacular ruins behind them, might be forgotten more easily. The cause for the Anglo-Saxon migration for instance is largely unknown, although a century of local warfare precedes a century of unknown whereabouts of the Angles and Saxons from around Anglia.

If you consult recent authorities, you'll find that climate change, rising sea levels, and enemies from the interior were all contributing factors. And recent genetic studies find a very shallow footprint of Saxons and Angles in England; the Danes left a deeper footprint. Instead, it seems that a relatively small number consisting of a new elite moved over, and many Britons turned Saxon in culture and language because of the economic and political collapse of the Romano-British state. And again, climate played a significant role.

Edited by M Helsdon

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48 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The Pelorian lowland river valleys are the site of extensive agriculture, not unlike that in Mesopotamia before the Mongols destroyed the irrigation system.

Yes. Still, King of Sartar states that the Lunar Empire had turned to relying on the Tarsh grain barges for sustenance. To me this indicates a higher degree of urbanisation, possibly tied in with the founding and growth of Glamour and the loss of some of the best dry farming lands to the Crater.

The Heartlands are among the densest populated parts of Glorantha. Even assuming urban farmers (as is somewhat explicitely stated for the metropolis of Alkoth), the urban population not engaged in primary production may have outgrown the capacity of the nearby lands.

48 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I fear you are getting your Brennus mixed up. The Brennus who attacked Rome was engaged in what was effectively a massive raid, not a migration. The later Brennus who was one of the leaders an attempted migration into Greece committed suicide after his migration turned into a raid which had to retreat. Some of 'his' followers formed a small kingdom, Tylis, but it didn't last very long.

The Brennus who raided Rome was the leader who had successfully settled the Cisalpine Gauls on the border of the Etruscans, claiming some of their land. I wasn't aware that there was another "king" (which is basically the meaning of Brennus) who failed in Greece. And another migration through northern Greece succeeded in establishing the Galatans n Anatolia, so that may only have been a local side affair.

 

48 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Um. No.

If you consult recent authorities, you'll find that climate change, rising sea levels, and enemies from the interior were all contributing factors. And recent genetic studies find a very shallow footprint of Saxons and Angles in England; the Danes left a deeper footprint. Instead, it seems that a relatively small number consisting of a new elite moved over, and many Britons turned Saxon in culture and language because of the economic and political collapse of the Romano-British state. And again, climate played a significant role.

Honestly, I am less concerned with the British side of events than I am with the Anglian side, given that I live and work in the region. There is archaeological evidence for purely "Saxon" settlements on the islands, with burial sites the same as ones in lower Saxony, which in turn inherit from burial sites in largely abandoned Anglia half a century older. Details like children's grave goods (and do you think that acculturation was fast enough that within half a century would suffice to change what mothers place with lost children?).

I don't have any information on genetic studies, though, and given that many of these digs happened more than 50 years ago, genetic information may be compromised.

Interesting that the Danes are so easily distinguishable from the Angles, given that they lived next to one another for generations and probably exchanged wives or sired children on mutual visits, whether peacefully in or near the Ale Hall or forced during raids.

My information may be outdated, but I had the impression that the Belgae who were encountered by Caesar had been less than two centuries in the country, too, possibly immigrating from the North Sea lowlands. If that is true, there wouldn't have been much genetic distinction between Saxons and Belgae. The Saxons were after all a conglomerate tribe with part of their homelands in the third part of Gallia named Belgia in De Bello Gallico, appearing about two centuries after Caesar's visit.

I have read sources that place the Cheruskans and neighboring tribes halfway in the Celtic culture and language rather than in the Germanic group, If that is true, the Saxons may have been less Germanic than the chauvinistic historians from over a century ago may have established.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes. Still, King of Sartar states that the Lunar Empire had turned to relying on the Tarsh grain barges for sustenance. To me this indicates a higher degree of urbanisation, possibly tied in with the founding and growth of Glamour and the loss of some of the best dry farming lands to the Crater.

I'd be wary of using it as a source of economic data.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Brennus who raided Rome was the leader who had successfully settled the Cisalpine Gauls on the border of the Etruscans, claiming some of their land.

You seem to be confusing Brennus with Bellovesus. Brennus lead a raid, but he didn't settle.

Bellovesus may be entirely mythical.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Honestly, I am less concerned with the British side of events than I am with the Anglian side, given that I live and work in the region. There is archaeological evidence for purely "Saxon" settlements on the islands, with burial sites the same as ones in lower Saxony, which in turn inherit from burial sites in largely abandoned Anglia half a century older. Details like children's grave goods (and do you think that acculturation was fast enough that within half a century would suffice to change what mothers place with lost children?).

Angles and Saxons in Germania isn't exactly a migration...

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't have any information on genetic studies, though, and given that many of these digs happened more than 50 years ago, genetic information may be compromised.

Modern genetic studies of the modern inhabitants of the British Isles. There is a fairly distinct divide predating the Danelaw, but between 'Continental' ancestry and 'Iberian'.

Mass migrations were a feature of the infamous belief in Völkerwanderung, but it doesn't really apply prior to the climate changes of the 4th-5th century, as most migrations prior to that were quite small and often unsuccessful. That of the Galatians was by invitation, so isn't a good example, and they were defeated by the Seleucid king Antiochus I. After that they survived, more or less, until the Romans arrived, a few centuries later.

Edited by M Helsdon

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9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I'd be wary of using it as a source of economic data.

Corroborated in the description of Furthest, so I am comfortable to take the steady stream of maize-laden barges down the Oslir as a fact of Imperial economy. And even if it is just Tarsh undercutting the price of locally grown food, the sudden absence of this staple will cause a crisis.

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

You seem to be confusing Brennus with Bellovesus. Brennus lead a raid, but he didn't settle.

Bellovesus may be entirely mythical.

Brennus in all likelihood isn't a name, but a title. The Cisalpine gauls were newcomers and still in warfare about territory bordering on the Etruscans. The raid on Rome resulted from this establishment.

 

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Angles and Saxons in Germania isn't exactly a migration...

Angles south of the Elbe river and no longer next to the Danes is a bloody migration, comparable to the distance the Resettlers of Dragon Pass did. Saxons aren't news, I agree.

 

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Modern genetic studies of the modern inhabitants of the British Isles. There is a fairly distinct divide predating the Danelaw, but between 'Continental' ancestry and 'Iberian'.

Mass migrations were a feature of the infamous belief in Völkerwanderung, but it doesn't really apply prior to the climate changes of the 4th-5th century, as most migrations prior to that were quite small and often unsuccessful. That of the Galatians was by invitation, so isn't a good example, and they were defeated by the Seleucid king Antiochus I. After that they survived, more or less, until the Romans arrived, a few centuries later.

So, what made the Cimbri and Teutones (neighbors or tribe mates of the Angles) pack up and journey all the way to the Alps? What factors brought on the Helvetii migration, or that of the Suebes (another tribe from the Baltic Sea, which at this time bore their name)?

Those migrations were reported by Caesar, and while De Bello Gallico is a work of propaganda and contains gems like the sleeping habits of elk (aka moose), its overall content is more trustworthy than Fox News.

A lot of migrations had an "invitation" somewhere. I wonder how often the inviting party learned of that when the invitees arrived. Or the invitees kin of kin.

 

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8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Brennus in all likelihood isn't a name, but a title. The Cisalpine gauls were newcomers and still in warfare about territory bordering on the Etruscans.

About two centuries prior to Brennus' raid on Rome, if the semi-mythical sources can be believed.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

The raid on Rome resulted from this establishment.

And his people vanish from history a century or so later.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, what made the Cimbri and Teutones (neighbors or tribe mates of the Angles) pack up and journey all the way to the Alps? What factors brought on the Helvetii migration, or that of the Suebes (another tribe from the Baltic Sea, which at this time bore their name)?

 

It's unclear exactly where the Cimbri and Teutones originated from. The usual pressures: climate, overpopulation and pressure from neighbors are likely causes of migration attempts.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Angles south of the Elbe river and no longer next to the Danes is a bloody migration, comparable to the distance the Resettlers of Dragon Pass did. Saxons aren't news, I agree.

Um, the Elbe flows into the sea just to the west of Jutland, and the Saxons tended to be placed just south of the lower Elbe, not a very significant distance away. For that matter, by the Medieval period, some centuries later, the Duchy of Saxony wasn't exactly geographically distant, so a very slow short-range migration, due no doubt, to pressure from the east. None of the 'Germanic' peoples were particularly sophisticated in comparison, say, with the Heortlanders, who at least had urban centers.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

A lot of migrations had an "invitation" somewhere. I wonder how often the inviting party learned of that when the invitees arrived. Or the invitees kin of kin.

Really? The Galatians were invited by  Nicomedes I of Bithynia to fight on his side in a dynastic struggle. They survived that, for a time, and eventually lost their identity/were submerged within the general population.

You are driving this thread way off topic.

Edited by M Helsdon

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8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Corroborated in the description of Furthest

Um , no. The GtG says nothing about Tarsh being a major source of food for lowland Peloria; it simply states The river is navigable as far south as Furthest. This has relevance for Lunar logistical military supply for operations in the south.

Edited by M Helsdon

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14 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

About two centuries prior to Brennus' raid on Rome, if the semi-mythical sources can be believed.

And his people vanish from history a century or so later.

 

It's unclear exactly where the Cimbri and Teutones originated from. The usual pressures: climate, overpopulation and pressure from neighbors are likely causes of migration attempts.

 

14 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Um, the Elbe flows into the sea just to the west of Jutland,

As somebody living in the area, I can authoritatively say that the Elbe flows into the sea south of Jutland - the estuary goes almost directly east from Hamburg. The south shore of the Baltic Sea is about 60 km further north (and significantly further east), apart from the Lübecker Bucht, and conventionally the peninsula starts north of the Eider.

14 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

and the Saxons tended to be placed just south of the lower Elbe, not a very significant distance away.

The core Saxon lands like Westfalia are two hours of German Autobahn further south.

14 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

For that matter, by the Medieval period, some centuries later, the Duchy of Saxony wasn't exactly geographically distant, so a very slow short-range migration, due no doubt, to pressure from the east.

There was indication of warfare in Anglia since the second century, and a 90%+ depopulation by the middle of the fourth century, a full hundred years before the British kingdoms were begun.

The Angles on the other hand lived significantly north of the Eider, around the Flensburger Förde. And somehow there was enough identification with the homeland they had already abandoned for about a century that parts of Britain still are called Anglia.

14 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

None of the 'Germanic' peoples were particularly sophisticated in comparison, say, with the Heortlanders, who at least had urban centers.

 The proto-urban centers in the region probably never exceeded 1000 people, but one or two almost reached that number before the exodus. Modern Anglia is extremely decentralized settled, and up to the first century AD the same seems to have been true for Anglia, according to Professor Gebuehr. An ongoing time of conflict led to significant concentration of settlements (traceable through their cemetaries) by the start of the third century.

 

14 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Really? The Galatians were invited by  Nicomedes I of Bithynia to fight on his side in a dynastic struggle. They survived that, for a time, and eventually lost their identity/were submerged within the general population.

Yes and no. The Galatan recipients of the Paulus letter manage to display some streaks that go well with the La Tene culture they came from.

And Hengist and Horsa...

 

To make this sort of relevant at least to Glorantha, the pastoral hillfolk tribes of southern Peloria that made incursions well into the rice area in the Storm Age mostly disappeared, too. There are no traces of Ram People (other than Yanafal's helmet) or Andam People left, and only the Bisosae have left a lasting impression in Pelanda.

Which brings us to Daxdarius vs. the Andam Horde, and the question whether the inventor of the Phalanx faced a similar determined opposition as Marius against the Teutons at Aquae Sextiae, with the collective suicide of the widows after killing their children, rather than facing slavery.

Vandals and Visigoths vanished through self-inflicted assimilation with the Roman culture they had conquered. Langobards and Franks retained some of their Germanic identity (enough so that the eastern Franks became the basis for modern Germany). And the most recent invaders, the Normans, had gone native in the Frankish culture within two generations, giving up their language and creed (but retaining their warrior spirit).

Other migratory groups had yielded their separate identities when joining e.g. the Visigoth trek. Maybe leaving some small idiosyncrasies or local customs, possibly some founding deities/ancestors surviving as medieval local saints.

The Bison overlords of Kostaddi are the Gloranthan equivalent of this. Apart from keeping a few bison as herds, their Praxian ancestry is completely forgotten, and when the Heortlings invaded Dara Happa in the Gbaji Wars, the Kostaddi bison families were fighting (and losing) as Dara Happans, after little more than two centuries. Without the Hungry Plateau as a reservate, the Sable families would have lost their ties to Waha's way completely, too. The horse nomads had shown more cultural identity in their centuries of overlordship.

 

And for the protocol, sedentary central European peoples with urban centers worth conquering by the Romans disappeared without many traces, too. The only place in continental Europe that retained some Celtic language was Brittany, resettled by Romano-British refugees from the Saxon invasion. The Dacians were forgotten within a century of their elimination by Trajan.

14 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

You are driving this thread way off topic.

You are right, but there is no Fantasy Earth forum here, and the Mythras Mythic Saxons supplement only deals with England.

 

On another related topic, how bloody were the purges of residual presence of former occupators? The Yelmalio in Nochet thread deals with the garrisons left behind by Palangio. Did any of those cut off by Arkat's rapid advance past Kaxtorplose find shelter in Arstola Forest, or were they and their families killed or enslaved by the Manirian Orlanthi?

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1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Um , no. The GtG says nothing about Tarsh being a major source of food for lowland Peloria; it simply states The river is navigable as far south as Furthest. This has relevance for Lunar logistical military supply for operations in the south.

True. Griffin Mountain on the other hand expicitely states:

Quote

Tarsh is agricultural and exports grain down river from Furthest to the Black Eel River and then to the Oslir

This has been an established fact since the lofty days of RQ2, and I see no reason to assume differently just because the Guide uses its limited space for Furthest and Tarsh for different topics.

I was pretty sure that I had included this fact in my old encyclopedia entry for Furthest. I really need to get my database-fu up to current systems to get access to some of my older versions of that data, and then add the current canonical sources.

But boy are we straying in our efforts to be more right(eous) than the other.

Edited by Joerg

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5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I was wondering if it was working for you guys ?

Indeed. I have been wondering for some time just what Joerg is arguing about.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

True. Griffin Mountain on the other hand expicitely states:

Um, a vague reference to starving peasants during the reign of Moirades, and the export of an agricultural surplus doesn't indicate a Pelorian reliance upon Tarshite grain. Instead it probably reflects a different growing and harvesting period due to climate and altitude (and myth). Such variation can drive commercial opportunities.

There's likely to be a wide variation in growing and harvesting within Dragon Pass, due to terrain and altitude. In fact, the date of the harvest might vary by weeks across a relatively small area.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

I was pretty sure that I had included this fact in my old encyclopedia entry for Furthest.

???

Edited by M Helsdon

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I've been trawling through all the material I have, and so far as I can determine, Tarsh exports an agricultural surplus, but I cannot find anything that suggests this is because of a lack of supply in Peloria. The KoS reference might highlight a famine, but the nature of the reference suggests this was an event worthy of note, which suggests it wasn't the norm. It's like reading the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, where the chroniclers record unusual or major events, but not the everyday.

Pondering this, and doing more research as resulted in an addition to my tome...

 

Logistics: Tarsh

For decades, Tarsh exported grain down-river to Peloria from its capital, Furthest. Much of this surplus was from Kordros Island, the breadbasket of Tarsh, its rich dark loam supporting the intensive agriculture of slave-worked estates and orchards.

The produce of the island also fulfilled a significant portion of that required to support Lunar supply lines into Dragon Pass and Prax.

From 1627, the escalating civil war denies the harvests of Kordros to the royalist faction; the island is the political center of the rebel Fazzurites. In subsequent years, the island will become a major supply center for the Sartarite counter-invasion of southern Peloria, utilizing the Oslir as a supply conduit.

 

Edited by M Helsdon

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1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The KoS reference might highlight a famine, but the nature of the reference suggests this was an event worthy of note, which suggests it wasn't the norm. It's like reading the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, where the chroniclers record unusual or major events, but not the everyday.

Presumably some of the surplus is the result of Hon-eel's introduction of maize into the culture as well.  What happens when Argrath (or Mularik) take over here?  Does Hon-eel's cult remain?  And if she is ousted, are the other earth goddesses able to make up that loss?  

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4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Presumably some of the surplus is the result of Hon-eel's introduction of maize into the culture as well.  What happens when Argrath (or Mularik) take over here?  Does Hon-eel's cult remain?  And if she is ousted, are the other earth goddesses able to make up that loss?  

 

I've always found it interesting that at one point Argrath allies with Hwarin Dalthippa... I could be mistaken, but wasn't Hon-eel primarily interested in being a maize goddess rather than an agent of the Empire...? when one is actually apotheosized, of course, as long as the correct actions and sacrifices are made, usually you impart your blessing.

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10 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

I could be mistaken, but wasn't Hon-eel primarily interested in being a maize goddess rather than an agent of the Empire...?

When you're an avatar of the Red Goddess?  She secured all of Oraya and all of Tarsh for the Empire - and into subsequent generations.

But she's no longer the active avatar, so her cult since her apotheosis is certainly based on what she accomplished while active.

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Nobody trades in bulk just for profit, if there isn't a regular demand. No farmer produces food just to let it spoil (beyond the amount which is inevitable). If you have sufficient over-production of rice to provide for your populace and put a bit away for emergencies, you don't pay for inferior import maize. But pay Dara Happa did, and paid well, too.

 

Once you start relying on grain imports, you take them as a given, and expand to the maximum that new resource can offer. Since 1555, Tarsh grain has bolstered the food supply in the Heartland cities, and the Heartland cities have adapted to that fact.

Basically, the Dara Happan cities have a sizable non-productive underclass regularly following Lunar-inspired populists, doing rallies, street meditations and what not, and like in Woodstock, food comes in weird ways and from sources nobody looks at - and the maize from Tarsh with its Lunar origin sounds like the ideal propaganda free lunch for those mobs.

The established Dara Happan society probably is well cared for by their traditional rice farming, but the unstable elements of Lunar society may be dependent on this.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Nobody trades in bulk just for profit, if there isn't a regular demand. No farmer produces food just to let it spoil (beyond the amount which is inevitable). If you have sufficient over-production of rice to provide for your populace and put a bit away for emergencies, you don't pay for inferior import maize. But pay Dara Happa did, and paid well, too.

The actual text speaks of "starving peasants" and "impoverished scholars and merchants seeking a better life".  All that you can conclude is that there was some type of famine downstream during the reign of King Moirades rather than Dara Happa becoming dependent on Tarshite grain.  Given that the event is not recorded in the Redline History or the Fortunate Succession, it may have been confined to the other Lunar Provinces rather than the Heartlands.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Presumably some of the surplus is the result of Hon-eel's introduction of maize into the culture as well.  What happens when Argrath (or Mularik) take over here?  Does Hon-eel's cult remain?  And if she is ousted, are the other earth goddesses able to make up that loss?  

No idea. Maize seems to have been introduced into the Earth cult there, so presumably it remains as a viable crop.

9 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I've always found it interesting that at one point Argrath allies with Hwarin Dalthippa... I could be mistaken, but wasn't Hon-eel primarily interested in being a maize goddess rather than an agent of the Empire...? when one is actually apotheosized, of course, as long as the correct actions and sacrifices are made, usually you impart your blessing.

The one Lunar goddess adopted by Argrath mentioned in the sources, is the Six Armed Goddess of Saird, which is Yara Aranis. Perhaps her anti-nomad aspect.

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6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The one Lunar goddess adopted by Argrath mentioned in the sources, is the Six Armed Goddess of Saird, which is Yara Aranis. Perhaps her anti-nomad aspect.

My memory isn't what it used to be... That's who I was thinking of...

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8 hours ago, metcalph said:

The actual text speaks of "starving peasants" and "impoverished scholars and merchants seeking a better life".  All that you can conclude is that there was some type of famine downstream during the reign of King Moirades rather than Dara Happa becoming dependent on Tarshite grain.  Given that the event is not recorded in the Redline History or the Fortunate Succession, it may have been confined to the other Lunar Provinces rather than the Heartlands.

Moirades spent immense riches on becoming King of Dragon Pass, on making Furthest a nascent Lunar metropolis, and on instituting a college of magic able to compete with the Imperial College on the research of new Lunar magics (under his personal supervision). All of that cannot have come from a single event of disaster relief, and however wealthy the princes of Sartar may have been, the plunder of Boldhome (that had to be shared with the Imperial forces present) cannot have been sufficient for all of that, either. (Besides, a lot of Moirades' investments occurred way before the Fall of Boldhome.) So there must have been ways of getting rich fast and solidly, and agricultural exports as per the description in Griffin Mountain is a solid way to get there. Forget the CHDP details. Phargentes recouped Tarsh from rebel rulership, and unless he put up dubious subsidies without the Tax Demon complaining, the land of Tarsh must have been really productive to provide Moirades with the money for all of his projects. (That, or a Lunar version of Patreon.)

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Moirades spent immense riches on becoming King of Dragon Pass, on making Furthest a nascent Lunar metropolis, and on instituting a college of magic able to compete with the Imperial College on the research of new Lunar magics (under his personal supervision).

Instead of giving your personal theories, could you take the trouble of looking up the text in question?  It is not clear from the text where the University of the Provinces is and the biography of Andrin Slackword in the Coming Storm p81 indicates that it is actually in Mirin's Cross, hence making it highly unlikely that Moirades "personally" supervised it.  Furthest is not a nascent metropolis and the "impossible' brideprice (KoS p196) is solely from the Grazer Queen's point of view.  We do not know how much the Tarshites viewed it.

 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

All of that cannot have come from a single event of disaster relief,

You are right.  It did not come from a single event because there is no evidence that it actually did.  I dispute the suggestion that Moirades was actually relieving a disaster because he made money from it.  My thinking is that the affected Provincial Kings had to pay through the nose for grain to feed their starving peasants and balanced their budgets by levying massive taxes on merchants and scholars who then fled to the one place where they would not be so taxed.  Now you may argue with many aspects of it but at least it has the virtue of being grounded in what is actually written.

 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

and however wealthy the princes of Sartar may have been, the plunder of Boldhome (that had to be shared with the Imperial forces present) cannot have been sufficient for all of that, either.

Gosh.  Who was suggesting that Moirades wealth came from the plunder of Boldhome?  Please avoid extraneous factoids.

 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

So there must have been ways of getting rich fast and solidly, and agricultural exports as per the description in Griffin Mountain is a solid way to get there.

Except that the Griffin Mountain description (p9 - please get into the habit of citing whatever it is you are referring to) does not say that the grain exports makes Tarsh very wealthy!

Why should I?

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Phargentes recouped Tarsh from rebel rulership, and unless he put up dubious subsidies without the Tax Demon complaining,

I think it more likely that Phargentes as Provincial Overseer beggared the other provinces to build up his own personal kingdom in Tarsh.  The Tax Demons only get sent if the taxes to the Emperor are in arrears.

 

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6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Moirades spent immense riches on becoming King of Dragon Pass, on making Furthest a nascent Lunar metropolis, and on instituting a college of magic able to compete with the Imperial College on the research of new Lunar magics (under his personal supervision). All of that cannot have come from a single event of disaster relief, and however wealthy the princes of Sartar may have been, the plunder of Boldhome (that had to be shared with the Imperial forces present) cannot have been sufficient for all of that, either. (Besides, a lot of Moirades' investments occurred way before the Fall of Boldhome.) So there must have been ways of getting rich fast and solidly, and agricultural exports as per the description in Griffin Mountain is a solid way to get there. Forget the CHDP details. Phargentes recouped Tarsh from rebel rulership, and unless he put up dubious subsidies without the Tax Demon complaining, the land of Tarsh must have been really productive to provide Moirades with the money for all of his projects. (That, or a Lunar version of Patreon.)

All the five Provincial Kingdoms are tributary provinces. Native rulers collect taxes, pay special tribute, support temples, and coordinate their operations under the commands of the Provincial Governor. There's a flow of tribute to the Lunar Empire, in the form of money, goods, and slaves. The latter drives a thriving slave trade, exploiting the less organized or recently pacified territories on their borders. [It's apparent (q.v. Slavewall) that the economy of Tarsh is in part driven by slaves obtained from Balazar, Sartar, Prax, and when imperial reverses remove two of those sources, Tarsh is going to suffer serious economic and tributary consequences.]

There's no mention of a university in Tarsh, the closest is the Provincial University at Mirin’s Cross, and no college of magic - the Provincial Army (including its Tarshite components) has no equivalent to the Lunar College of Magic; the closest thing would be the The Mirin Moon Mages, but they cannot create cooperative mass-magical effects like the Minor or Major classes of the Lunar College of Magic.

The things that is recurrent here, is that the political, economic, and magical center of the Provinces is at Mirin's Cross, the seat of the Provincial Government.

Coupled with the requirement for tribute, giving large sums to the university, and his meeting of the Feathered Horse Queen's bride price, Moirades seems to have beggared his kingdom, and unintentionally to have created the conditions for the civil war during the reign of his successor.

Edited by M Helsdon

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Instead of giving your personal theories, could you take the trouble of looking up the text in question?  It is not clear from the text where the University of the Provinces is

I relied on the Wikia entry which says "presumably in Tarsh".

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

and the biography of Andrin Slackword in the Coming Storm p81 indicates that it is actually in Mirin's Cross, hence making it highly unlikely that Moirades "personally" supervised it. 

I just spent two hours trying to hunt down the connection between Moirades and the "stray moonbeam" which (together with a hungry or enraged dinosaur) spelled the end for Terasarin, so far without success.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Furthest is not a nascent metropolis

Furthest is a still growing Large City, on the upper end, and about as big as Nochet was when Sarotar died.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

and the "impossible' brideprice (KoS p196) is solely from the Grazer Queen's point of view.  We do not know how much the Tarshites viewed it.

 

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

You are right.  It did not come from a single event because there is no evidence that it actually did. 

You will most probably disdain any mention of the Imperial Lunar Handbook, but p.55 does have this information. And as far as I am concerned, there is no need or reason for newer information contradicting this paragraph.

Quote

Tarsh is a land with a long history, and is rich in ruins, old earth shrines, surviving storm-rune menhirs atop windswept hills, and other traces of elder ages. The lowlands are dominated by the wheat and maize fields that are the source of the kingdom’s wealth. The Oslir and other rivers take barge-loads of this ‘Tarsh gold’ to the hungry Heartland. In return comes money, influence in Glamour, and a flood of colonists and opportunists. Lunar deities have replaced many of the old hill gods (and the others have been tamed), and the Tarshite capital of Furthest is now a gleaming new Lunar-style city.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I dispute the suggestion that Moirades was actually relieving a disaster because he made money from it.  My thinking is that the affected Provincial Kings had to pay through the nose for grain to feed their starving peasants and balanced their budgets by levying massive taxes on merchants and scholars who then fled to the one place where they would not be so taxed.  Now you may argue with many aspects of it but at least it has the virtue of being grounded in what is actually written.

The sources speak of Heartland immigrants.

Your conjecture above (and that is all it is) probably can have contributed to the rapid growth of Tarsh.

On the other hand, we know that both the Orindori and the Lunar dynasty of Tarsh possess significant holdings in Sylila which contributed to their wealth, which is hard when those holdings are routinely famished, so I take the mention of the hungry Heartland to mean the Dara Happan portion of it, and not some impoverishing Provincial kingdoms nearby. Also note that Tarsh continued to grow richer after the demise of Phargentes and the loss of the office of Provincial Overseer. Either there was a successful pyramid scheme in place, or the wealth did not come from the other Provinces but from the Heartland.

If the wealth came from the Heartland, I agree with Martin Helsdon that agricultural regions are less likely to be hit, which makes overpopulated cities the most likely assumption.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Gosh.  Who was suggesting that Moirades wealth came from the plunder of Boldhome?  Please avoid extraneous factoids.

 

I could look it up in the digest archives, but to what avail?

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Except that the Griffin Mountain description (p9 - please get into the habit of citing whatever it is you are referring to) does not say that the grain exports makes Tarsh very wealthy!

I provided the verbatim quote in an earlier post, but did omit the page number. But with a searchable pdf, naming the source along with a verbatim quote should be sufficient for anything but a scientific publication.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Why should I?

ILH 1 p.55 spells it out. The statement has been around for longer, been repeatedly confirmed in face-to-face or private email discussions with people with access to the canon.

There is of course one statement in the Vault of out of print publications which supports your provincial pyramid scheme. You wrote it:

Quote

Tarsh ruled Aggar, Holay and parts of Balazar three hundred years ago. Phargentes, the previous king of Tarsh, sought to restore these lands to Tarsh by abusing his post as Provincial Overseer. Even now Tarsh uses its wealth to buy up land in those places hoping to affect a border adjustment, but it is opposed by Sylila, which seeks to recover the provinces for itself.

(Introduction to the Hero Wars p.129)

But even there you mention a significant surplus wealth that Tarsh can spend to buy up land.

And in the light of this paragraph, I find the placement of a university founded by Moirades outside of Tarsh rather doubtful.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I think it more likely that Phargentes as Provincial Overseer beggared the other provinces to build up his own personal kingdom in Tarsh.  The Tax Demons only get sent if the taxes to the Emperor are in arrears.

Good point. Still, even without the office of the Provincial Overseer, Tarsh keeps having excess wealth to spend on dozens of ambitious projects. And while northwestern Tarsh does have a mining community, there is no indication that Tarsh gains that much wealth from metal exports. Inheriting the control over the trade routes to the Holy Country from Sartar for selected luxuries is another possible source of wealth, but the Princes of Sartar who controlled more than half of that trade before it entered Tarsh did not have such extravagant spending beyond the building projects of the dynasty, and those are easily matched by the build-up of Furthest as a new model Lunar city.

 

There is no point in bringing up "Tarsh in Flames" with you in this debate, so I won't check that out and rather go directly to bed, not taking in 400 lunars.

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1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

All the five Provincial Kingdoms are tributary provinces. Native rulers collect taxes, pay special tribute, support temples, and coordinate their operations under the commands of the Provincial Governor. There's a flow of tribute to the Lunar Empire, in the form of money, goods, and slaves. The latter drives a thriving slave trade, exploiting the less organized or recently pacified territories on their borders. [It's apparent (q.v. Slavewall) that the economy of Tarsh is in part driven by slaves obtained from Balazar, Sartar, Prax, and when imperial reverses remove two of those sources, Tarsh is going to suffer serious economic and tributary consequences.]

Tarsh was rich and expanding already before the conquest of Sartar, which would have seriously weakened the access to slaves from Prax or the southern Orlanthi, except through trade through Sartar.

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

There's no mention of a university in Tarsh,

and only a side mention for one in Mirin's Cross. If you were Moirades, King of Tarsh, and regretfully not heir to his father's office of Provincial Overseer, where would you put your money to found a university? One where you have the say who gets privileged access? In your new model Lunar royal city, or in a seat of an administration that undermines your dynastic claims? Just asking.

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

the closest is the Provincial University at Mirin’s Cross,

Which may be a different institution than the University of the Provinces mentioned in CHDP, or which may be an institution distributed over several places.

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

and no college of magic - the Provincial Army (including its Tarshite components) has no equivalent to the Lunar College of Magic; the closest thing would be the The Mirin Moon Mages, but they cannot create cooperative mass-magical effects like the Minor or Major classes of the Lunar College of Magic.

Fazzur's middle brother cooperated with Moirades in the spell that killed Terasarin according to his article in Wyrm's Footnotes (or was it Tales,  or did Tales reprint it?). Doing so out of Furthest is already a great magical feat. Doing so out of Mirin's Cross would obviate the presence of Imperial College magicians in the Lunar army.

It is possible that Moirades' battlefield magics were more akin to the personal magic of the Red Emperor (though probably not quite as powerful) rather than regimental magics of the Imperial college, but I remain to be convinced that Furthest was not the source of this magic research and execution.

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The things that is recurrent here, is that the political, economic, and magical center of the Provinces is at Mirin's Cross, the seat of the Provincial Government.

I agree that Mirin's Cross is the center for the other Provincial kingdoms (Aggar, Holay, Talastar, Imther, Jarst, Garsting) and lesser territories (Elkoi, Tork), but I doubt that it has that much influence over Lunar Tarsh. None of those provincial kingdoms have direct dynastic ties to the Goddess or Moonson, only Sylila (which has become a Heartland adjunct, and keeps meddling in and through Mirin's Cross).

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Coupled with the requirement for tribute, giving large sums to the university, and his meeting of the Feathered Horse Queen's bride price, Moirades seems to have beggared his kingdom, and unintentionally to have created the conditions for the civil war during the reign of his successor.

The Guide doesn't quite agree with this. p.339:

Quote

The richest of the provincial kingdoms, Tarsh profits from its fertile valleys, wide hill lands, and position along the main north-south trade route.

If Moirades beggared his kingdom while still building up a modern Lunar city in Furthest, the rest of the Provincial kingdoms must be way worse off.

 

Checking out the entries on Mirin's Cross, I find the connection between Urar Baar (a troll stronghold at the Dawn) and the Berennethtelli founders surprising, to say the least. Berenstead lies considerably further west.

Also, isn't Jillaro a contender for the former position of Nivorah? Mirin's Cross would correspond to Elempur in Anaxial's Heptapolis.

 

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3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The things that is recurrent here, is that the political, economic, and magical center of the Provinces is at Mirin's Cross, the seat of the Provincial Government.

But only since the death of Phargentes in 1579 ST.  Remember that Phargentes was the first Lunar Provincial Overseer, so the power at that point was in Tarsh.  It's only with Appius Luxius that the Provincial Government shifts to Mirin's Cross.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I agree that Mirin's Cross is the center for the other Provincial kingdoms (Aggar, Holay, Talastar, Imther, Jarst, Garsting) and lesser territories (Elkoi, Tork), but I doubt that it has that much influence over Lunar Tarsh. None of those provincial kingdoms have direct dynastic ties to the Goddess or Moonson, only Sylila (which has become a Heartland adjunct, and keeps meddling in and through Mirin's Cross).

Appius Luxius has direct influence with the Red Emperor, so can go that route in influencing Tarsh and Moirades.  But the blood of the Red Goddess runs strong in the heirs of Hon-eel, and the Eel-Ariash, one of the 3 great families, are strong there.  Effectively there is a three-way tension across the provinces between Appius at Mirin's Cross, Moirades in Tarsh, and the King of Sylila.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Checking out the entries on Mirin's Cross, I find the connection between Urar Baar (a troll stronghold at the Dawn)

Mirin's Cross is at the location of Urar Baar, and Domanand of the Second Age, though the river's course has changed over time.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

isn't Jillaro a contender for the former position of Nivorah?

It's never been able to prove such even if someone claimed it.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Mirin's Cross would correspond to Elempur in Anaxial's Heptapolis

I put attempts at founding the New Nivorah at Mirin's Cross, but even those did not prove successful.  It is not Elempur, though.

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