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Brithos divided


Joerg

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Taking this over from the Man Rune discussion.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

What Runes we have for intellect is largely irrelevant to your argument, except to note that multiples exist, and there is no need to add Man which already has other uses. The semantics games of understanding vs intellect vs knowledge is just games, and your presentation of those ideas is misleading. Law isn’t just another Rune for knowledge.

Do you have to add any other runes that stand for intellect? Making that statement and not following it through feels like a cop-out, David, sorry.

Some read it as a rune for cosmos, yes. But outside of the Malkioni, Law and intellect aren't necessarily connected. To the Orlanthi, the Law Rune denotes learned knowledge, or with the most xenophobic ones, evil sorcery.

Man is what separates the sapient races (except the dragonewts) from beasts. That suggests that it does stand for sapience.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

There is a big gulf between unity, and a crisis of religious heterodoxy.

I am not talking about the Malkioni in Seshnela, I am talking about serious dissonances between different population groups in Brithos. The Seshnegi did with Earth what the Waertagi had done with Sea, and the Waertagi are as welcome to Brithos as they always have been. They aren't counted among the Brithini any more, but that's what both Seshnegi and Brithini were fine with. Some other colonies (like Neleoswal) were less willing to follow the new ways initially, but when the Pendali threat turned around, they became part of Seshnela rather than an outpost away from the Brithini mainland. (Some of this is actively described in Hrestol's Saga.)

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Froalar is supposed to have left due to a political struggle of succession.

Twin brothers, equally qualified to take on the succession, and their supporters ready to go all the way. Froalar chose exile in independence over weakening his people further by civil war. No idea when in the Gods War this happened - presumably after the Expulsion Walk.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

And the trouble started with Hrestol in year 2. Not that I’m claiming  the Seshnegi didn’t drift into heresy - I’m simply following the fairly well established claim that they drifted into henotheism in the First Age. You seem to be trying to make the very specific, and odd, claim that they were already heterodox before leaving Brithos, simply so you can then have them separately pursue heterodox caste changes over the Man Rune and Ancestor worship without linking that to their drift into henotheism?

No, henotheism doesn't seem to play much into the internal differences in Brithos. Part of this is due to the leaders of the other castes being sidelined by Zzabur, with son of Hoalar (Froalar's brother, who was allowed to take up the throne of Talar unchallenged by Froalar's departure) a mere puppet and not a ruler like Froalar.

 

Zzabur usurping the leadership in the West appears to have been an issue even before Hrestol invented the Men of All. Look at Sandy's choice of two different groups representing the Malkioni, sorcerers and "knights" (warriors). I'd need ro reread that part of Hrestol's Saga, but Hrestol visits the parts of Brithos where the Horali Duke rules either before or after Faraalz (a warrior caste companion who became a Man-of-All and later a Baron) slew the Brithini king, and there is mention of dissatisfaction by the Menenans.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Quibbling about when Ancestor worship began mythologically is another argument I’m not sure why you are pursueing. This is essentially disagreeing not about what happened, but when it reaches a form close enough to modern practice to use the same term rather than regard it as an antecedent practice for a different era. We both agree it’s pre-Dawn, which is basically the only relevant issue. 

I say it is post Breaking of the World, and while it may not be an issue to you, it is to me.

The Great Compromise which allows the parallel existance of the various Gods Ages to what remains of the World predates the Dawn by quite a bit. Effects of the Ritual of the Net and the Great Compromise were what allowed the Kingdom of Night to organize the surivors of Unity Battle and I Fought We Won into a patchwork community even before the Dawn, and it likely allowed Waha to start righting some of the wrongs in Prax. Most peoples who somehow survived outside of such civilizations probably were still caught in their traumatic nightmares, some well into the second century of History.

It may be the Compromise which allowed use of the Axis Mundi. And I am curious how and when such practices started to work differently from cohabitation with the Dead.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

There is that small detail of it being a heretical practice for them, which it wasn’t for the Malkioni. Ancestor worship doesn’t work as such if your ancestors are not in the underworld.

All ancestor worshipers agree that the ancestors they contact aren't the complete beings they used to be while living, but that they represent aspects (partial souls, or the spirit) of the ancestors, and usually they stay rather anonymous for the Orlanthi. Spirit society Daka Fali may contact ancestors with more individuality.

Ancestor doesn't have to mean progenitor, either. Some sort of blood kinship is normal, but it can be a different branch of your ancestral tree than yours.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

It becomes a quite different thing if your ancestors are either demigods walking around. It also becomes a different thing if your ancestors are (or are supposed to have) dissolved their individuality after death, and so your attempting to bring them back is either futile or heretical (or both). 

But that's the case for the Orlanthi. Unless the ancestor was of heroic (or demigod) stature, usually he won't be called back as an individual, but as part of the community of ancestors. And if I look at the Ancestors units in Nomad Gods, the non-Daka Fali among the Beast Riders have as diffuse a relation to their ancestors as the Orlanthi, and only the specialized Daka Fali get to contact individual ancestors.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Ancestor worship is a practice you follow if you want your own spirit to be preserved after death.

As an individual, you mean, and not as present but not individually expressed amorphous member of the Ancestors?

Every culture honors and sort of worships its ancestors. The Daka Fali (at least per RQ Cults of Prax and RQ3 Gods of Glorantha) require exclusivity to be able to contact individuals. And it is possible that these individuals need to have been Daka Fali, too - this wasn't detailed. But then there are the really ancient ancestors who died before there was a Daka Fali tradition using the Axis Mundi.

I think that the Axis Mundi couldn't work as long as there was an open, bleeding void occupying the center of the world. Only when the maelstrom encapsulated the Void, the vertical connection to the Underworld that used to be Wonderhome became available.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

I don’t think you can use it if your ancestors followed a path after death that precludes it. So the question is really when did the Seshnegi fall into heresy. And as I said before, no good reason to presume it was pre-Dawn IMO. 

What's the Waertagi take on these things? Although with the Mermen facing a similar dissolution into the All Waters after Death, with loss of individuality, it is possible that they required the message of Solace as much as the orthodox Brithini.

Still, the origin of the Brithini is a lot less pure than Zzaburism claims.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

I do not think this is true. Nor is 1 male in 4 a Dronar, and 1in 4 a Talar, which would be a rather top heavy society. Going from a single mythic family to a society of thousands many generations later and assuming all proportions and breeding practices were perfectly preserved is weird reasoningBut not as weird as arguing the ancestral Malkioni are parthogenetic fish. 

Last thing I heard, first sons (of a Brithini mother) get to be a Dronar, second sons get to be Horali, third sons talari and fourth sons zzaburi. If that means from the same father, the ratio of the special castes diminishes a lot more.

The parthenogenic Menenans are just an idea which came to mind when reading about these parthenogenic fish. I like weird scientific facts to inspire my Glorantha. I blame @scott-martin for planting such weird ideas about Menenans in my brain.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

. Finally, back to the Man Rune. I’m not arguing that the Man Rune is about a functional, harmonious community. Many aren’t. I’m also not arguing about Agrarian society, which is the Earth Rune. I’m arguing it has the simple primal role of being about mortal beings living together in groups, usually family groups.

The basic wolf pack/monkey pack/lion pride. There are of course plenty counter-examples in the animal kingdom, but our social structure in family groups really is not what makes us different from beasts.

So Waha took the family structure from the Herd Men when they lost the contest? Doesn't look like that to me. Herd Man family structures are the same as for slaves - subject to disruption by the whims of the owners, but overall following the normal pattern.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

I’m not arguing that from an abstract argument, but from the simple observed fact that most of the Man Rune magic we know of is about those things.

Daka Fal is all about summoning spirits of family members to share their magical possessions (remember this is animism, something you have) with their (expanded definition of) descendants. In RQ2 this meant access to Battle Magic spells that could be stowed in foci. In HQ it means charms holding spirits.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Even the weirdo EWF sorcery of Pavis about the simplest social interaction, and reproduction,

And that's the Harmony bit of Pavis' rune magic. Nothing at all to do with the Man Rune.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

but 90% or more of Man Rune magic is Ancestor worship or community magic.

But ancestor worship comes in quite different flavors. The way the ancestor interaction is presented for the Heortlings is completely different from that of the Praxian Daka Fali. Heortlings worship the ancestor community. Daka Fali interact with specific spirits of ancestors. Hence the communal effects of the Heortling ancestor interaction. Daka Fali magic is mostly personal magic inherited from some ancestor (and quite likely each individual ancestor has only a limited store of magic they can leave to one descendant at a time. Only when uncle X dies or unlearns it, you get the chance to receive the healing spell inheritance of great-grandaunt Y.

On 22.2.2018 at 10:16 AM, Joerg said:

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Man doesn't seem to be tied to female mysteries (Earth, Fertility) in any way, so it really might be a Man and not necessarily a Woman Rune

I think this is a Very Weird stance, and a clear indication that you are getting lost in abstractions and overthinking this (if parthenogenesis in fish had not already made this clear). 

Note that I said this in the context of discussing Westerner origins. It doesn't apply to Praxian Daka Fali.

When it comes to Clan Ancestors as in King of Dragon Pass, I am not quite sure, really - many a mother (although a minority, unless your clan bears a special curse) may leave the clan after a temporal marriage runs out or after a divorce, leaving no ancestral imprint if the clan she dies in is the clan where she serves as an ancestress.

(For Esrolian males, a similar situation might exist, so this case is not really a question of gender, but of defining who is clan/kin, and who is not (any more).)

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Where do you think families come from?

For the Westerners, this is an astonishingly valid question. And family structures on Brithos need looking into.

Does this mean a Menenan woman that has had no children yet must choose a Dronar as father for her children until she bears a son, and then turn to a Horali (rinse and repeat for Talar and Zzabur caste)? Does this mean that a father may only have intercourse with a woman who has born the correct number of sons in order to claim her son as his heir? And can he have multiple heirs by having sons from various eligible women?

The immortal Brithini don 't marry for life. Now, within Time, they appear to avoid getting children, too, although things may be different on Brithos if that island is somehow held outside of Time.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

If anything, Ancestor worship is even more about motherhood than it is about fatherhood. Women are part of families, have ancestors, die, every bit as much as men. And cities, of course, are also inhabited by women.

Agreed. Except for magics like the pregnancy transfer offered by Xiola Umbar, it is usually in no doubt who the mother is. (But then mythology has this modern problem where a child can have multiple biological mothers already, e.g. the mothers of Heimdall.)

But if you look at the Malkioni, I get the impression that male lineage is all that counts. There are maybe half a dozen historical Malkioni women mentioned in the Guide, and maybe a few more in the Seshnegi king lists.

 

But then, Motherhood and maternal magics are the realm of the Fertility Rune. Males strong in this rune may be able to bless their partners with fertility, but they still cannot create new life on their own, unless they go to similar lengths as Orstan the Elder.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, it’s more primal than the gendered role implies by a female Earth, etc. but there is really nothing at all in Man magic that makes it male, if anything slightly the other way. And it is worth noting that often the intercessory gods, like Darhudan and Darhudana, or Old Man and Old Woman, are in identical-apart-from-gender-ed pairs. I think we get a male retelling of a story that the women tell about Grandmother Mortal, but don’t mistake that for it being a male story. It’s a mortal story.

A different version of the Sword Story?

Earth mythology has its own judge and keeper of the Underworld, Asrelia's dark sister. Darhudana appears more like an afterthought, and might be an aspect of Ty Kora Tek.

Female mysteries in Glorantha go as far as making the participation of males optional for procreation if done so on the Other Side. And then there are the in-betweens (Jernotia/us or Androgeus) or the shifters (Heler and his cultists).

 

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10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Man is what separates the sapient races (except the dragonewts) from beasts. That suggests that it does stand for sapience.

It stands for the Mortal condition. Making it into the Rune for sapience is focussing on the part over the whole. Certainly learning from experience is part of it, but in the sense of it being part of the universal mortal experience, not as a specialist focus - it’s not about being *good* at thinking, it’s about just doing it in the first place. Similarly, you have to be in a physical mortal body to have the Man Rune, but it’s not about being good at physical things at all. 

And it is important to note that the Man Rune is not about sapience per se, because in Glorantha there are many sapient beings that are not mortal. It’s about being a sapient mortal being, a physical creature that is not a Beast (or, I guess, Dragon).

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11 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am not talking about the Malkioni in Seshnela, I am talking about serious dissonances between different population groups in Brithos

Well, that’s an interesting thing to talk about, though I’m glad it’s separate from the Man Rune discussion now, because it seems of very limited relevance to that. 

 

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Seshnegi did with Earth what the Waertagi had done with Sea, and the Waertagi are as welcome to Brithos as they always have been. They aren't counted among the Brithini any more, but that's what both Seshnegi and Brithini were fine with.

That’s a quite interesting way of thinking about. I’m sure the Brithini regard it as Error, but perhaps a supplemtary practice that they regard as foolish (but not forbidden), rather than attempt to change the law itself - they seem more hostile to Hrestolism than henotheism. I suspect the Revelation of Now does not forbid other forms of magic use (having been formulated before the Malkioni knew of them), just Zzabur regards them as self-evidently foolish. The Vadeli, of course, follow the same law, and will cheerily use other forms of magic should it have utility., just sorcery is in general an obviously better choice for them. 

 

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Some of this is actively described in Hrestol's Saga.

I don’t have access to Hrestols saga, though I’d sure like to read it. I suspect the canonicity of many of its details are in flux though (like the old Crusade fragment, which was at one stage one of the most well direct sources of Hrestols practice, but 8 think is now explicitly not canon).

 

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

It may be the Compromise which allowed use of the Axis Mundi. And I am curious how and when such practices started to work differently from cohabitation with the Dead.

If anything, I think the Axis Mundi temporarily returns a part of the world to the pre-Compromise status quo - the Compromise doesn’t allow use of the Axis Mundi magic, so much as create a need for it. In the period between the first Death and the Dawn, for the most part you would simply hang out with your dead relatives, and interact with them (as in an Axis Mundi), with a slowly dawning awareness over generations that this was not right, and a rearrangement of the world to correct the problem.

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3 hours ago, davecake said:

It stands for the Mortal condition.

That's Grandfather Mortal/Darhudan/Daka Fal, and the experience of Death. Don't confuse the deity with the rune. It takes Death to make Grandfather Mortal be about the mortal condition (which is, by the way, shared by the vast majority of beasts).

Man and Beast share a lot of traits - forming family groups, getting offspring, a degree of nest care. Yet Man stands out from Beast by being sapient.

(Which is sort of a problem with all those sapient beasts around like the fish cultists of Zola Fel, the talking fox in KoDP, and the Hsunchen disregard for the distinction in other regards than shape.)

Then there are the potentially immortal people of the Brithini and the Vadeli, evading mortality (or rather the mortality that comes from old age) through a strict regimen. (Not unlike those likewise unaging eastern sages, although many of those stagnate in a state that would be horrendously old to Brithini or Vadeli.)

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Making it into the Rune for sapience is focussing on the part over the whole. Certainly learning from experience is part of it, but in the sense of it being part of the universal mortal experience, not as a specialist focus - it’s not about being *good* at thinking, it’s about just doing it in the first place.

There are philosophies that don't earn much more distinction than that. But it remains that Man in all its variations is supposed to be a creature of embodied intellect, of rational decisions, and of making experiences. Including Death.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Similarly, you have to be in a physical mortal body to have the Man Rune, but it’s not about being good at physical things at all. 

So the ancestral spirits of the Daka Fal cult have lost the Man Rune completely, trading it for the Spirit Rune? Then why are they different from say a plant spirit?

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

And it is important to note that the Man Rune is not about sapience per se, because in Glorantha there are many sapient beings that are not mortal. It’s about being a sapient mortal being, a physical creature that is not a Beast (or, I guess, Dragon).

Are uzuz mortal? We know that immortals are killable, Yelm proved that. Both Yelm and Daka Fal continued their existence in the Underworld. Daka Fal became Judge of the Dead.

 

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2 hours ago, davecake said:

Well, that’s an interesting thing to talk about, though I’m glad it’s separate from the Man Rune discussion now, because it seems of very limited relevance to that. 

If that's what it takes to keep you on this trail, fine. I am still adamant that "Humanist" stands side to side with "Materialist" when we discuss the Westerners and their origin. The Mostali are the real Materialists, the Westerners really are Energeticists. Mind and Energy are laudable, Matter has to be suffered and dominated.

 

I compare Seshnegi adopting Earth deities into their ways with the way the Waertagi adopted the Sea deities into theirs.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

That’s a quite interesting way of thinking about. I’m sure the Brithini regard it as Error, but perhaps a supplemtary practice that they regard as foolish (but not forbidden), rather than attempt to change the law itself - they seem more hostile to Hrestolism than henotheism.

Hrestolism is Caste Crime. What is the biggest beef the Zzaburi have with the Vadeli? That every Vadeli is a sorcerer, regardless of Caste. (And still immortal.) The Zzaburi somehow managed to wrestle a monopoly on sorcery (or at least the sorcery of spells) from the other Castes and to make that mandatory for the Right Conduct, and the Vadeli show that that's bogus.

And (according to Hrestol's Saga) there is a somewhat autonomous community of Horali on Brithos that looks with interest on a warrior (Faralz) displaying (a degree of) mastery of spellcraft and bearing the title of a Talar (lord of one of the minor cities that used to be beset by the Pendali).

 

Scott brought the Rokari into this discussion. While we get details how the Rokari interpret original Malkioni ways, I think that they get most details wrong. Neither the celibacy of the wizards nor the use of the talar caste as shock cavalry are in any way acceptable Brithini ways IMO. But that makes reconstruction of Grey Age and Dawn Age Malkionism from modern day Tanisor all but impossible.

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I suspect the Revelation of Now does not forbid other forms of magic use (having been formulated before the Malkioni knew of them), just Zzabur regards them as self-evidently foolish. The Vadeli, of course, follow the same law, and will cheerily use other forms of magic should it have utility., just sorcery is in general an obviously better choice for them. 

 

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I don’t have access to Hrestols saga, though I’d sure like to read it. I suspect the canonicity of many of its details are in flux though

It probably needs more editing or at least footnoting than it has text now to bend it into current canon, but the basic plot stands. Description of the society of Dawn Frowal might need some de-Malloryzing. As far as I know, all those early writings were "distributed" to the four digit kickstarter supporters as a five or seven volume collection of unedited source documents. (My own copy of Hrestol's Saga was won at the 1994 oConvulsion auction for a commensurate price).

Frowal does have families - Froalar's head sorcerer sends his son-in-law to accompany Hrestol onto his campaign against the Pendali which made him realize that he needs to strike at the Pendali bond to the land to enable the Malkioni to survive in that conflict. Froalar has one son and one daughter from Xemela at the Dawn. (If Ylream had any full siblings, sisters, remaining in the Temple, we aren't told about it anywhere.)

  Garzeen and his wooing of Fenela (mentioned in Cults of Prax) are absent from Hrestol's Saga, probably written later. But then, we don't get the full vita of Hrestol, just his quest to slay Ifftala, Froalar's quest to redeem his son, and Hrestol's visit of Brithos about a decade or two later. It breaks off with Hrestol's and Faralz' flight from Brithos after slaying the Talar of Brithos, a son of Hoalar.

While not indicating primogeniture (Hrestol's absence would have disqualified him from being a ruler anyway), both Frowal and Brithos clearly have dynastic succession, indicating a belief in (or a reality of) ancestral power and virtue transfer harkening back to Talar son of Malkion.

 

Part one of the Seshnelan King List is part of the document collection that is Hrestol's Saga, and that part has been published on the net, and presumably is canonical. The list of Pendali kings also included was taken into doubt by Greg, but at least to me that works out fine if the cities have non-Pendali folk under a Pendali dynasty.

It is sort of weird that a lineage tied to the source of fertility in the land has such little procreation rate, although there are siblings lacking the serpent legs, at least in later generations. The last rulers of the Serpent King dynasty are ordinarily shaped humans, although descended from Hrestol's grandson who somehow 

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

(like the old Crusade fragment, which was at one stage one of the most well direct sources of Hrestols practice, but 8 think is now explicitly not canon).

Arkat's role in the Gbaji War still remains a Crusade, as far as I see it, and the Return to Rightness war probably does, too. A claim to a higher authority to go all out in war, strengthen the spirits of the combatants beyond normal human limits.

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

If anything, I think the Axis Mundi temporarily returns a part of the world to the pre-Compromise status quo - the Compromise doesn’t allow use of the Axis Mundi magic, so much as create a need for it.

While that is correct, there being something to connect to at all is IMO a success of the Compromise. Without it, all those otherworlds might be lost to the Void, impossible to connect to - the status quo of the Greater Darkness.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

In the period between the first Death and the Dawn, for the most part you would simply hang out with your dead relatives, and interact with them (as in an Axis Mundi), with a slowly dawning awareness over generations that this was not right, and a rearrangement of the world to correct the problem.

If you had that much of an awareness at all. Learning that the Lightbringers did more than just spread a mode of worship was something of a game changer. The communities that have (ancestral) memories of the Gray Age are a minority. Many, like the Talastari (who are the documented case), have made no experiences or memories until their contact with the Lightbringers. It is as if their Man Rune was suspended.

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4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Herd men have the Man Rune but are not sapient.

Interesting. Do you have a source for herd men retaining the Man Rune?

Herd men do of course have all the physical attributes that are described by the Man Rune. More so than the Baboons of Prax, who do have the Man Rune (they are the example given in Biturian's Travels for Daka Fal worship, not human Praxians).

And Morokanth have a claim to the Man Rune, too, by virtue of winning their contest. Are we discussing a weird Praxian anomaly, or does this in connection with the lost uz kin of Pamaltela mean that the humanoid body plan is not enough to grant the Man Rune?

 

And what about the Newtlings? 

The Pelmre/Slarges (and possibly Lascerdans) and Jelmre are part of Pamalt's learning experience to make humans, and can be considered to have a limited connection to the Man Rune.

 

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's Grandfather Mortal/Darhudan/Daka Fal, and the experience of Death. Don't confuse the deity with the rune.

No, that’s Ancestor worship which is probably literally at least 80% of active Man Rune magical expression, and the owner of the Rune, and one of the very few near universal magical practices. They are hard to separate, but it’s true not the same. The distinction really only becomes relevant when dis using other forms of 

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

So the ancestral spirits of the Daka Fal cult have lost the Man Rune completely, trading it for the Spirit Rune?

Ok, you have to be in a physical mortal body to acquire the Man Rune. Note that an ancestor isn’t just a spirit that was a Man once - you need that physical link, through physical ancestry, for Ancestor worship to work. 

And yes, there are many sapient magical Beasts. The Man Rune isn’t the sapience Rune, and sapient magical beasts should not surprise you if you hadn’t been hanging on to that idea. 

And it also shouldn’t confuse you that Brithini and Vadeli are unaging, yet mortal. 

Uzuz are mortal, yes. 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

All ancestor worshipers agree that the ancestors they contact aren't the complete beings they used to be while living, but that they represent aspects (partial souls, or the spirit) of the ancestors, and usually they stay rather anonymous for the Orlanthi.

Yes, all Ancestor worshippers understand that their ancestors are dead, and no longer possess a body, trivially. They also know that this means ancestors have a limited ability to experience the world. That doesn’t they don’t believe the ancestor they contact is the actual soul. They can’t simultaneously believe their identity dissolves after death, and they can contact their ancestors soul. 

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

So Waha took the family structure from the Herd Men when they lost the contest?

Nope, it’s different because they aren’t sapient. Animals don’t have the concept of Family or ancestor, just relationships with other individuals. 

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

And that's the Harmony bit of Pavis' rune magic. Nothing at all to do with the Man Rune.

I was literally taking the described magical effects directly from the Man Rune grimoire (Book of the Original Man), so no, you are 100% wrong here. 

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:
Quote

Where do you think families come from?

For the Westerners, this is an astonishingly valid question. And family structures on Brithos need looking into.

It’s a question, sure, but not really a relevant one. Children of Brithini are still born as a result of a mummy and daddy Brithini using the normal procedure to create new people. That’s true even of the Mostali.

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

But ancestor worship comes in quite different flavors. T

Different sauces on the same steak, so to speak. 

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Heortlings worship the ancestor community. Daka Fali interact with specific spirits of ancestors.

Not really. Axis Mundi is a spell that allows communal interaction, and is the normal form of Daka Fal worship. And just because the Heortlings mostly interact with the ancestors via associate worship as part of the pantheon doesn’t mean that is the only mode they do so. If a heortling wants to establish an individual relationship with an ancestor via ancestor worship at the clan shrine, they can. 

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

But if you look at the Malkioni, I get the impression that male lineage is all that counts. There are maybe half a dozen historical Malkioni women mentioned in the Guide, and maybe a few more in the Seshnegi king lists

When you are looking at the records of a culture that has decided historian is a male (Zzaburi) occupation, you would get that impression. Nonetheless, they all have both a father and a mother. 

I quite like @scott-martins suggestion that the celibate Zzaburi regard biology as an awkward irrelevance, but the Menena are the ones who come back to Ancestor worship etc, 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

But then, Motherhood and maternal magics are the realm of the Fertility Rune. Males strong in this rune may be able to bless their partners with fertility

Motherhood amongst mortals is more than childbirth. Whether communally or individually, it’s raising a child to adulthood as well. 

(Admittedly the Mostali are weird in this respect, but then they are also the only major Man Rune race that do not appear to practice Ancestor worship or acknowledge their genealogy)

and yes, it’s true that men can’t create children without women, but barring parthenogenesis fish people, the reverse is true as well. 

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

A different version of the Sword Story?

Of course. There are multiple versions of the Sword story for different cultures, and for different traditions within the same culture. 

 

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Earth mythology has its own judge and keeper of the Underworld, Asrelia's dark sister. Darhudana appears more like an afterthought, and might be an aspect of Ty Kora Tek.

The roles of Ty Kora Tek and Darhudana are different.

and yeah, if you’ve only heard the version of the story told by the men about Gradfather Mortal, you might think Darhudana is an after thought. If you heard the version about Grandmother Mortal, you’d think differently.

a better question to ask might be is there any evidence at all that Ancestor worship is gendered in its operation , other than by being embedded in cultures with strong gender roles?

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Female mysteries in Glorantha go as far as making the participation of males optional for procreation if done so on the Other Side.

Some do. But we got onto the whole issue because you were claiming that Ancestor worship was strongly masculine. I’m arguing it’s not significantly gender specific. You appear to have somehow worked yourself around to arguing against a straw man (or straw woman) that is the converse or your original claim (and thus a variant of it) rather than what I actually said. 

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A general comment on multiple arguments in this thread, including herd men, Xiola Umbar pregnancy magic, etc - in general, arguing that general observation X or Y is not true because there exists a specific magic effect to change it in a specific way is a terrible, confusing style of argument that leads nowhere. 

Often the exact inverse is the more reasonable line of argument. If there is a magical principle that X implies Y, and there is a special spell to magically make X true where it normally is not, then it’s probably at least in part because people want to do Y. 

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18 hours ago, Joerg said:
Quote

@davecake

Even the weirdo EWF sorcery of Pavis about the simplest social interaction, and reproduction,

And that's the Harmony bit of Pavis' rune magic. Nothing at all to do with the Man Rune.

Pavis GtA: page 367, Gives us the Pavis Man Rune Grimoire by which different species sharing the Man Rune may reproduce:

Quote

Book of the Original Man (Man Rune)
This book is a collection of prayers, each allegedly penned by Lord Pavis. It sings of the Original Man, common nature of all who share the Man Rune. Among the songs are well-established friendly greetings to the dwarfs and aldryami, as well as magical means by which different species sharing the Man Rune may reproduce. Four other spells are contained in the songs of this book.

 

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So, then what is the Grandmother Mortal story?

Husband underwent a terrible trick of Eurmal, and now old age takes all of us?

Grandmother lay with Eurmal, still drunk with euphoria from retrieving this Death thing from under Subere's vigilance, and infected her with it, so that she made him persuade Humakt to show it to hubby, too?

Are there versions where there is only a Grandmother Mortal?

I note that the Kralori Mother of Mortals is Allgiver, who remains an immortal deity even after her mating with the WIld Man (as close to Grandfather Mortal as I can identify in Kralori myths, unless you place that role on Aptanace the Sage, the bringer of Civilization).

 

In Doraddi myth, the first person to die is Dorad, a male, and source of the first Lineage Plant. The Agi aren't made as mated pairs or anything, and gender more or less is an accidental by-product of Kendamalar and Nyanka trying to outdo one another.

In Thinobutan myth, Soli made 4 matched pairs of differently colored ancestors, who promptly went on to perform all permutations of colors and creating the 16 mixed tones of their second generation (which probably evened out to a continuum in later generations, unless you get a Mendelian distribution with mixes and throwbacks to the original coloration).

Dara Happan myth has the original men made in concert by Yelm and six other deities, evading the trial and error stages Pamalt had prior to Kendamalar's involvement. Yelm claims the leading role, and I can see no Pamalt equivalent. Mortality comes to them when their god emperor Murharzarm dies.

Other places have humans as the lesser children of original immortals. Including the Westerners, the Praxians, the Orlanthi (regardless of Darhudan), the Pelandans with their log carriers meeting the women's tribe, etc.

Mortality comes when Humakt and Eurmal return with a power from the Darkest Below that changes a pre-existing Power Rune, or reveals a meaning not even its origin knew about. But that's the Theyalan myth, really.

Outside of Theyalan influence, it comes when an ancestor undergoes Death (or worse, as in the case of 5th Action Malkion). Or the charming Pelandan myth about humans being kept away from the secret of immortality through shedding the skin (or current body), as practiced by dragonewts, spiders and certain other arthropods.

 

Grandfather Mortal is a case of "It's our own fault, now we deal with it" Orlanthi myth. Most other myths mainly blame outside influences, Deathbringers. It was probably spread by the Theyalans and their successor, the Bright Empire.

The Hsunchen tell how Telmor ate the sun. That's blaming the Death of the World to Telmor, but not necessarily the aging and passing away of the individual. But the Hsunchen also notice that Death claims beast and man alike.

In the West, Zzabur (and others) sabotaging Malkion's Fifth Action is what leads to mortality (at first by cataclysm, but consequently by old age), unless the outcome is exactly what Malkion expected (from the description of that event, that is doubtful, though). So, is Malkion of the Fifth Action the western Grandfather Mortal?

 

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2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Pavis GtA: page 367, Gives us the Pavis Man Rune Grimoire by which different species sharing the Man Rune may reproduce:

 

For a project starting in Adari, the absence of the trolls is interesting (and ultimately fatal to his city).

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3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Herd men have the Man Rune but are not sapient

I don't believe this is the case. Going back to Genert's Garden I believe that the two-leggeds and four-leggeds that became the Praxians and their herds had both runes and were intelligent - this was the crazy god time. The Covenant polarised this focussing the Man and Beast rune into humans and beasts. Herd men have the beast rune dominant and have the Man rune at a small amount. RQG has the Man and beast rune as paired opposites - so herdsmen have high Beast rune an d low man rune. It's helpful to think about the Beast(ial) rune. The real problem with all of this is what is intelligence as it's clearly not related to form runes. We know that there are intelligent animal in Glorantha - I think it's in River of Cradles that it says 1 in 1000 fish in the Zola fell are intelligent - they don't have the man rune.

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10 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The real problem with all of this is what is intelligence as it's clearly not related to form runes. We know that there are intelligent animal in Glorantha - I think it's in River of Cradles that it says 1 in 1000 fish in the Zola fell are intelligent - they don't have the man rune.

The easy way to deal with this is to say that such individuals aren't mere mortals, but demigods. Their sapience is one of their demigod powers, and usually they have more, like the ability to curse those who don't respect their beast constituency.

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5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The easy way to deal with this is to say that such individuals aren't mere mortals, but demigods. Their sapience is one of their demigod powers, and usually they have more, like the ability to curse those who don't respect their beast constituency.

That's ridiculous. They are just intelligent animals, not demigods. By that reasoning, a herd man who is brought to intelligence by whatever rules set is a demigod. Lets replace the word intelligence with talking animals, that removes the intelligence issue. Now what's your explanation?

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23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I don't believe this is the case. Going back to Genert's Garden I believe that the two-leggeds and four-leggeds that became the Praxians and their herds had both runes and were intelligent - this was the crazy god time. The Covenant polarised this focussing the Man and Beast rune into humans and beasts. Herd men have the beast rune dominant and have the Man rune at a small amount. RQG has the Man and beast rune as paired opposites - so herdsmen have high Beast rune an d low man rune. It's helpful to think about the Beast(ial) rune. The real problem with all of this is what is intelligence as it's clearly not related to form runes. We know that there are intelligent animal in Glorantha - I think it's in River of Cradles that it says 1 in 1000 fish in the Zola fell are intelligent - they don't have the man rune.

Herd Men are beasts and have the Beast Rune. They just look like men. But they are no more the Man Rune than stick insects are the Plant Rune.

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, then what is the Grandmother Mortal story?

This is all great stuff on all sides! I have something to do for the office this morning and my books are all over the place but since this so fertile (yeah, it is) and my lunacy is up in it, just a brief bit that will probably get me in trouble with someone. It could go on either thread but I'm increasingly convinced that they're the same thread, only uh "divided" as it were.

Man has to be something more than Mind (or Free INT) because as people have pointed out there are encounters with entities (incarnate and discarnate) who think but lack the other attributes of Man . . . immortal, wrong hit location table, what have you. Furthermore I have an intuition that many of the "crueler" philosophers have worked hard to convince people that women, dronars, etc. do not actually think. Are they still Man Rune creatures? I think the philosophers would grudgingly say "yes, but. . . ."

This is a big deal because I suspect that the West is the single civilization across all Gloranthan history who spent the most effort investigating Man Rune, followed distantly by Kralorela and Prax, which didn't seem to propagate their findings quite so far and wide. Distinguishing "humans" from human-adjacent species and more distant outliers is very much a Western project. I think it's a lot older than the imperial phase. You probably see it in their first contact situations, when we met the dwarves, aldryami, hykimites and other "krjalk-" class humanoids. The magical politics governing how far Man Rune status stretches probably swing to fit the circumstances: with effort and a properly repentant attitude, you can probably teach conquered animal people how to be human. At other times, it's useful to demonize people who look and act superficially like you but your agenda would benefit if they're denied full human status. So there's that. Part of the mechanism of the West (and also the East) revolves around weaponizing Man. When that process breaks down in fringe cases like Herd Men or dwerulans or whatever, you see the manifest destiny of the West hitting its geographical and historical limits.

Now this is further complicated because as people have noted, the modern rokarist zzabur tend to deny even their cross-caste cousins complete thinking power. Sure, a talar may be technically conscious, but do they really have the brains to read or do magic? Best to encourage those people into the liberal arts. The jocks in the horal caste are even worse. The dronars are barely worth mentioning, and then you have people who make outrageous claims that wo-men can be educated! You don't have to buy into any of my drastic resolutions (spoilers: "zzabur" is blue vadel wearing a useful new skin to complete his work of destroying Danmalastan) to see the ways this maximizes Gloranthan fun. Drama is good. Complexity feeds drama. Human cruelty, human aspiration and human redemption make great stories for that corner of the map. You don't have to use my raw ingredients, tainted as they are.

After all, I truly believe that the figure we now call "Malkion" is the form of the primeval and universal "flesh man" whose cult evolved in the West along unique lines. He's many things: giver of (caste) law, ancestor of ancestors, sacrificial Man of sorrows. He is betrayed and murdered, which breaks the world. This seeds of this story are preserved in the shadowy "ultimate rite" of kingship in modern Loskalm and maybe in other non-rokarist talar survivals as well. At some point within recorded myth, Talar had sufficient moral authority to keep the zzaburists -- despite all their magic, learning and control of the textual record -- from revolting. If we attribute that authority a rune, it only looks like Mastery on the surface, when the caste system is humming along and everyone is happy. Here within time (i.e., post hrestol reform), it looks more like Man, the rune that embodies cosmic anguish and redemption for those brave and desperate enough in this Hero Wars era who remember how it works. "To control, thou must sympathize and then give, for thus is the Sigil Against Z-B-R most excellently formed." 

Students of the earthly upanishads may observe that this entails sacrifice to entities who may read Man Rune as "food" or "slave." We aren't gods. We aren't spirits. We're just people. Repairing a broken world starts with the gift. They say that back on the island the blue man is imprisoned in that tower shaped like his star and also like a Man. It isn't his palace. It's a tomb. Modern rokarist talars, of course, pooh-pooh this mystery and the watchers almost smile to know the status quo will continue. But this is all just a little gibbering on the quest. I hope it's fruitful or at least diverting! Probably off track as always but I have to see a man about a blockchain.

Edited by scott-martin
there was a long digression here about Grandfather Mortal as explicitly Orlanthite figure (compare to Old Man, Wild Man and yes, "Flesh") but it's too far into the weeds of Dawn Age cultural dissemination to make the cut, besides this is already too long
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17 hours ago, David Scott said:

That's ridiculous. They are just intelligent animals, not demigods.

Of the lowest order. Divine beasts. Or spirit beasts.

Divinity is found all over Glorantha. Sometimes it concentrates in individuals, creating a godling, or an avatar of a greater being. And that's what I think these creatures are.

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

By that reasoning, a herd man who is brought to intelligence by whatever rules set is a demigod.

A herd man reverted through the Waha magic inverting the fixed intelligence imposed by the Compact gains membership in the man side of the Praxian beast rider society. A herd men awakened by sorcery becomes a familiar or similar magical construct. And a herd man awakened by a deity or greater spirit becomes a servant of that entity, and gains some divinity.

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

Lets replace the word intelligence with talking animals, that removes the intelligence issue. Now what's your explanation?

First, there's the Hsunchen point that beasts, especially their own totem, are people, too. There are numerous rites where beasts participate as active worshipers, not limited to Hsunchen - check the Ylream caption in the Guide, or the description of the Wild Temple rites. Beasts may have a collective divinity (similar to the Protectresses) that may empower some of their kind to act as a divine (or spirit) messenger, a divinity of the lowest kind.

 

There may be humans touched this way, too. Usually we call them heroes, but when they come e.g. from the moon, we call them demigods.

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In considering ‘what is the Grandmother Mortal story’, we must first ask ‘what is the Grandfather Mortal story’, and I think the Grandfather Mortal story is a God Learner aggregation of the stories of Old Man, Darhudan, Daka Fal, Iste, Kudja, Ebe, and more. There is no single Grandmother Mortal story, but the stories of Old Woman, Darhudana . There will be some where it is a distinct story intertwined with her male counterpart, some where it is distinct, some where it will be taken as read that the first mortal was hermaphroditic (well, everyone was then, didn’t you know?), for some the first Ancestor and the first to die are the same, for others they are not. 

But the magic of Ancestor worship works pretty much the same regardless. 

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17 hours ago, scott-martin said:Furthermore I have an intuition that many of the "crueler" philosophers have worked hard to convince people that women, dronars, etc. do not actually think. Are they still Man Rune creatures? I think the philosophers would grudgingly say "yes, but. . . ."

I think so too. But I think they fail in their magical efforts to prove it. I’m sure there are Rokari treatises on the incompatibility of the Law with women, dronars etc - probably both in authorised versions accepting that Talars may be sufficiently pure, and suppressed versions saying only Zzaburi are. 

I think it’s very interesting that they have taken the idea of magically significant lineages, and with the idea of the Secret Keepers, turned into a hereditary intellectual duty instead, thus de-emphasising the biological line (and thus turning it into an achievement of the Talars, rather than the Menena). This makes a lot of sense as a  Return to Rightness era reaction against Seshnegi (Menena driven or not) Ancestor worship. 

 

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17 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Furthermore I have an intuition that many of the "crueler" philosophers have worked hard to convince people that women, dronars, etc. do not actually think. Are they still Man Rune creatures? I think the philosophers would grudgingly say "yes, but. . . ."

I think so too. But I think they fail in their magical efforts to prove it. I’m sure there are Rokari treatises on the incompatibility of the Law with women, dronars etc - probably both in authorised versions accepting that Talars may be sufficiently pure, and suppressed versions saying only Zzaburi are. 

I think it’s very interesting that they have taken the idea of magically significant lineages, and with the idea of the Secret Keepers, turned into a hereditary intellectual duty instead, thus de-emphasising the biological line (and thus turning it into an achievement of the Talars, rather than the Menena). This makes a lot of sense as a  Return to Rightness era reaction against Seshnegi (Menena driven or not) Ancestor worship. 

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I don't think that the Return to Rightness was as much a campaign against Seshnegi Henotheism and Ancestor Worship, it was a campaign against Hykimi Ancestor (i.e. Beast) Worship beyond the "allowed" parts of the battle orders (and even those could have been under scrutiny for a while). There were non-Seshnegi rulers, affiliated or allied with Arkat's Dark Empire, and that was an ignomy which had to be purged. Seshnela belonged to the Flamesword Dynasty, after all (never mind that there had been just three kings of that dynasty before the interregnum). The Seshnegi practices fell under similar scrutiny, and may have been curtailed, but it may have been a backslash of hatred for the beastmen who had usurped their sacred fatherland several times in history. (Again, never mind that they were at least as native as the Serpent King dynasty, not to mention the Froalar folk who had come from Brithos. There is something about not minding the natives that may be an inheritance from our world's Migration Age, whether the German expansion into the Slavic and Baltic areas, the displacement of American natives, or other such colonial highlights like the Antipodes.)

Edited by Joerg
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33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that the Return to Rightness was as much a campaign against Seshnegi Henotheism and Ancestor Worship, it was a campaign against Hykimi Ancestor (i.e. Beast) Worship beyond the "allowed" parts of the battle orders (and even those could have been under scrutiny for a while).

It was a campaign to Return to Rightness, and so to eliminate as many forms of pernicious error as possible. Henotheism , Ancestor worship, Hykimi influence just some of them, it also being a campaign against the Arkati most especially. Hrestolism in general of course, and probably against Vadeli influence if they could find it. 

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No. Hrestolism never was a target of the Rightness crusaders - if anything, the entire God Learner movement is condemned as the logical outgrowth of Hrestoli Adventurism by the Rokari. All the Makanists were just another brand of Hrestoli. Admittedly different from Dawn Age Hrestoli, but not that different from Silver Empire (3rd century) Seshnela.

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My personal theory on the Menena caste is that, like all the castes, it’s technically defined by functional role, by the work they do. Dronars labour, Horals fight, Zzaburi think, Talars lead the Malkioni, Menenas create more Malkioni. That probably overlaps to homemaking (making the conditions for Malkioni to grow to adulthood), even healing (eg Xemela)

To the Original Malkioni, it makes perfect sense that this is biologically determined, so are the other castes. Horali are red and muscled and moustachioed, and built for fighting. Zzaburi are blue and tall for thinking and observation. Talars are yellow, and  attractive, suited for leadership. Menena have breasts and uteruses for creating children. Obvious. 

By the Dawn it’s probably broken down quite a bit, but not too badly. People have gone and produced children with other people’s out of necessity, and it’s sub-optimal, so the clear form-and-function link has broken down a bit, but the Law seems to still work (no one ages) as long as caste rules are maintained. That’s still how it works for the Brithini. 

But it all starts get a bit weird in the Dawn, what with people no longer being unaging (mostly for other reasons I presume), and Hrestol, and the fall into henotheism ways. The Seshnegi start to behave more like barbarians and do all sorts of wicked things. Like having sovereignty tied to the Earth, and having their Horali adopt weird Hykimi practices, and such. Over in Akem they have their own problems. Gender roles may depart from the Brithini plan, as so many things do. Menena and woman are no longer considered synonyms by many Malkioni, and when they are the idea of what it means to be Menena caste has changed

The Vadeli, btw, don’t seem to have gender segregation, but still claim to follow the Law (to the letter, but not in spirit), so they must either have always had a different Law, or they found a loophole (like outsourcing their Menena role and restrictions to slave race nannies or something). 

Things don’t get any more settled with Arkat etc (with all that trolling matriarchy and worse - to the trolls, the idea that being a woman precludes you from leadership, combat or magic is literally insane). The God Learners do not help at all, with all their radical redefinition of everything. I haven’t worked out details.

In the modern era, the Rokari and the Hrestoli, predictably, take opposite approaches to the Menena caste, at least in the modern era, more or less based on their other ideas about caste. The Rokari think that we need to return, as much as possible, to the biological determinism, form and function align, hereditary caste era. So the obvious way to do that is that all women are Menena, and therefore must be for making and raising children, and home making, etc. just the way Malkioni surely intended. Anything else is caste mobility, and they ain’t having none of that. 

To the Hrestoli (well, the Loskalmi anyway), caste mobility is surely correct. So Menena is a  functional role that you can move in or out of, like other castes. When a woman becomes pregnant enough she becomes Menena, and remains so while she raises children. When she is no longer child raising, she returns to her previous caste (usually). And their sense of equality means they probably allow men who are full time child raising to be considered Menena as well. 

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