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Glorantha technology and Glorantha material technology


David Scott

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I have zero problem with Gloranthan bronze doing a better job at things like barrels than Earthly bronze would, whether because of skilled crafters employing minor magics as part of their trade or because <METAL!>BONES OF DEAD GODS!</METAL!> 

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So, barrels are non- canonical, but we have a god of barrels, pictured with a barrel, described as having barrels and art direction by the current Mr Glorantha as having barrels.

Reducto ad absurdam would indicate that barrels are not non-canonical.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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9 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, barrels are non- canonical, but we have a god of barrels, pictured with a barrel, described as having barrels and art direction by the current Mr Glorantha as having barrels.

Reducto ad absurdam would indicate that barrels are not non-canonical.

Did I say that barrels are non-canonical?

There's an awful lot of overthinking going on here - I think that is an inevitable result of internet culture, but it does get silly at time. To make things easy - most human civilisations in Glorantha are best described as being Bronze Age in technology, although of course there are going to be things more and less developed. Saying that also helps get rid of obvious anachronisms and gives a default baseline for how things look. Like any default baseline, it is riddled with exceptions; a guideline rather than a hard rule.

 

Edited by Jeff
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My own personal thoughts...

Innovation

Most of the cultures of central Genertela are innately conservative, wary of innovation and change after the disasters of the Second Age. Even worshippers of deities personifying Change are subject to the boundaries of their gods' actions.

This dogmatism relates not only to arms and armor but to tactics as well. The older a regiment is, the more unwilling its soldiers and officers are to deviate in the slightest from received tradition. Tribal warbands are similarly constrained to fighting in the ways their ancestors did; a warrior might obtain a metal sword instead of one edged with stone or bone, a shield faced with bronze instead of wood or hide, but the way they fight does not change.

Ancient regiments like the Stonewall Phalanxes would rather riot than change the pace they march at – adherence to tradition is why we have survived!

Fighters may even carry equipment and weapons they cannot use, because their presence is required for ancient battle-rites and formulae to be effective.

Newer regiments, such as those raised by Hon-eel are far more flexible (though their magic is usually weaker than the units over a thousand years old). But after over a hundred years, even those regiments become increasingly hide-bound.

Fazzur Wideread, widely regarded as the greatest general of the period, fully utilizes ancient writings. An avid scholar in his youth, he is extraordinarily well-read, having read antique military treatises and modern Lunar battle manuals such as the Light of Action. Much of his genius comes, not from inventing new maneuvers and ploys, but in utilizing and combining old tactics and stratagems in novel ways.

Lunar regiments are the most flexible, as the Moon is Change within Time, but even they become conventional and traditionalist as time passes. It requires a heroquest by a Hero to modify their accustomed ways.

A case in point is the use of stirrups; these are widely used by the nomads of Pent and the Wastelands, but their adoption by others is slow and piecemeal; their use is alien to many cavalry gods. Thus, some of the newer Lunar cavalry regiments use stirrups (or an individual may have successfully heroquested to obtain them) but many older regiments cannot.

The great Dara Happan hero-general Kastokus quested for, and implemented many changes in his cavalry army in the Second Age, which may have included the use of stirrups.  However, his revolutionary innovations were anathema to the deeply reactionary culture of the Imperial Court, and undoubtedly contributed to his political fall, and to his execution. Most of his new insights were lost.

 

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7 hours ago, Jeff said:

Did I say that barrels are non-canonical?

 

HeroQuest Glorantha, p.222

 

"The Bronze Age elements of Glorantha are a good source of color for the Game Master and players. Bronze armor is as much about (if not more) about displaying status as it is about protection. Buildings are often brightly (even garishly) painted. Wine and other liquids are not stored in barrels but ceramic amphorae, which are sometimes decorated with painted designs or ornamentation."

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Getting back from who said what where. We seem to have a spectrum of portable liquid holding containers:

Amphorae - visible on the Gods wall.

Barrels on the Gods Wall with a Barrel God - that is an interpretation by Pletonious. Barrels may also have been available in Dara Happa at the time the Wall was rolled, but the knowledge has been lost in the Great Darkness. Alfostios the Cooper isn't mentioned anywhere else and is that really a barrel? So:

Barrels - bound with wood - more common than metal but less common than amphorae

Barrels - bound with bronze - available in some places but not everywhere.

Barrels - bound with iron - Clearly dwarven

The availability of barrels is also going to be related to material construction. For example, the only barrels that exist in Pavis will have been imported as wood isn't common. Amphorae will be much more common as river clay is readily available. The Paps will store liquids in amphorae as not only is wood a rarity, but so is metal working. Large skin bladders are also much more likely as there is a thriving animal culture. Barrels are likely to be a sign of status where their constituent materials and craft skills are rare. Amphorae may be rare where clay is difficult to source or fire is difficult.

Overall amphorae are going to be the most common bulk liquid transport - commonly available clay is the main component.

Barrels are going to be less common due to materials (metal and wood) and skill availability (wood working and metal working).

Skins are going to be very common, but limited in size if you need to transport them. Whole animal skin containers clearly exist, but as they are flexible and irregularly shaped transportation may be problematic.

Example: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/T50.1.html

It would be interesting to look at other cultures - The Doraddi?, the dwarves likely use tins and barrels, Trolls?, What do the brithini use?

Edited by David Scott
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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

It would be interesting to look at other cultures - The Doraddi?, the dwarves likely use tins and barrels, Trolls?, What do the brithini use?

Trolls?  Large dinosaur bladders - hold a lot and you can eat them too.  Or stuff discarded beetle carapaces - same advantage on edibility.

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7 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

HeroQuest Glorantha, p.222

"The Bronze Age elements of Glorantha are a good source of color for the Game Master and players. Bronze armor is as much about (if not more) about displaying status as it is about protection. Buildings are often brightly (even garishly) painted. Wine and other liquids are not stored in barrels but ceramic amphorae, which are sometimes decorated with painted designs or ornamentation."

So basically this tells us that wine and other liquids aren't (usually) stored in barrels. That doesn't mean that there are no barrels for other commodities.

The taste of barrels (or of resin on skin) is an acquired taste in beverages. As we are unlikely to have cognac, rum or whisky,  this doesn't really matter much. I am a bit torn about beer. It has been present since neolithic times and is one of three major ways to make grain comestible (the other two are porridge and bread). It can be prepared in ceramics, but those need to be suitable for cooking (not a great deal, since most cooking is going to be done in ceramic vessels, but then those may be usually a bit more porous, like the Roman clay pot that is still in use in modern kitchens.

But then cauldrons are quite bronze-agey, too - the Gundestrup cauldron may have come to Denmark in the Roman Iron Age, but it draws on Hallstatt motives, and the exact date of its fabrication is unknown. Its purpose doesn't seem to have been connected to any fire, possibly as a mixing basin for wine (which would indicate Greek influence rather than Roman, since those Roman barbarians drank wine straight).

 

Decorated items are a major theme. Sword hilts might look like animal mouths with the blade symbolizing a tusk or the tongue. Greaves won't be smooth but might for instance recall tree stems, providing the wearer with a stand rooted in the earth, or have winged designs to allow swift (forward) movement.

 

 

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

The availability of barrels is also going to be related to material construction. For example, the only barrels that exist in Pavis will have been imported as wood isn't common. Amphorae will be much more common as river clay is readily available.

Ceramics require quite a bit of firewood or charcoal, which needs to be imported to Pavis as well. This reminds me a bit of the teak-wood sugar chests which created a furniture industry in the colonial period, making the container just another ware in addition to the content. So, yes, Pavis will receive a lot of goods in wooden containers because those containers provide a secondary line of business, and quite a bit less in ceramic containers because those aren't that high in demand.

This doesn't apply to the elevated society that comes with the occpation force, though.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Paps will store liquids in amphorae as not only is wood a rarity, but so is metal working.

Although the Paps is one place where you would go to find a metalworker.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Large skin bladders are also much more likely as there is a thriving animal culture.

There's also the possibility to combine baskets with bladders or sewn skins, creating a container that is lighter than either amphorae or barrels and as protected from impacts. The main drawbacks are less durability over time and an influence on the taste, but like with modern cask effects praised by connoisseurs of various brandies, this will be an acquired taste. (I suppose un-chlorinated tapwater will taste funny to people who don't have any other tapwater, too.)

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Barrels are likely to be a sign of status where their constituent materials and craft skills are rare. Amphorae may be rare where clay is difficult to source or fire is difficult.

Or where transportation by waterway is limited. For overland transportation on wagons, amphorae will most likely be put into basket-like protectors or surrounded by lots of (valuable, to the farmers) straw (but as valuable to the recipients in say Pavis).

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Overall amphorae are going to be the most common bulk liquid transport - commonly available clay is the main component.

Clay, water, and fuel (or some other source of fire). For Pavis, the water requirement can be a show-stopper, too. On the other hand, use of waste water with urea may improve the quality of the stuff in the kiln.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Barrels are going to be less common due to materials (metal and wood) and skill availability (wood working and metal working).

Barrels are boats that go around all the way, instead of stopping halfway around. Any culture that builds boats with planks will produce tubs. The main difference from barrels to boat building are the hoops, but funnily those are inherited from an older boat-building technology, reed boats, or bound rafts. Basically an inheritance from basket-making.

Creating the planks for a barrel or for a boat requires the same skills, the same tools and the same problems with water-tighting. 

Using metal (as nails, for hoops, or for surface protection) for boats or barrels may be a quite recent development - possibly one initiated by the Jrusteli Free Men of the Seas. The God Forgot tin tubs appear to be the extreme of this development.

There will be dugout wooden vessels, too, in both senses of vessel.

 

14 minutes ago, Psullie said:

its not just liquids: apples and other fruits, salted fish, cured meats, all go in barrels (you'd have a job getting a leg of lamb into an amphora... )

The Roman clay cooking pot can be upscaled as a container, and is like made for keeping meat. You don't transport sausages in flasks, either, but in glasses with a wide top and some form of non-glass lock (needn't be a screw-on metal lock, anything that takes a seal with some available sealant like wax will do). Wide-opening earthware with an earthware lid is common in kitchens, so why not on the road?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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36 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Although the Paps is one place where you would go to find a metalworker.

Given than the Guide says

Quote

Technologically, the Praxians are a Neolithic culture. All of their metal is imported.

The Paps are part of the Praxian culture. Why would you find a metal worker there?

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1 hour ago, Psullie said:

its not just liquids: apples and other fruits, salted fish, cured meats, all go in barrels (you'd have a job getting a leg of lamb into an amphora... )

 

A lot of that list in fact do go in amphora: https://www.ancient.eu/Amphora/

"Foodstuffs transported in them included wine, olive oil, honey, milk, olives, dried fish, dry food such as cereals, or even just water. Non-food contents included pitch" The Romans used them for fish sauce and preserved fruits.

We know palm wood crates were used as early as 500BC, and that the Gauls put wine in barrels, but the amphora dominated transport until about the 7th century AD (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphora). Some winemakers continue to use amphora, as wine shipped in clay tastes different to that aged in wood.

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The key point here is not actually the 'canon' nature of barrels. It's not actually the canon nature of the technological base i.e. which items are specifically in or out. It's far more: how do you remind your players that this is an ancient world setting, and not the dark ages. Pointing out that the prevalent technology is not dark ages by not using barrels etc. helps with that sense of place.

Consider these two versions of the same scene:

The Black Pig is hopping tonight. Old Mellowy the innkeep has had to crack open extra barrels of the "Greydog Old Peculiar", and he freely admits when he ladles the lamb stew onto your trencher that he is worried he will be running out of beer tonight. He nods to the cloaked figure with a mailed shirt, sitting in the corner, with a crossbow placed on the table in front of him, "That stranger there is buying tankards of ale for everyone."

and

The Black Pig is hopping tonight. Old Mellowy the hostelier has had to had to fetch up extra amphora of the "Greydog Retsina", and he freely admits when he ladles the lamb stew into the earthenware bowl in front of you, that he is worried he will be running out of wine tonight. He nods to the cloaked figure with the bronze cuirasse, sitting in the corner, with a composite bow resting against the wall next to him, "That stranger there has me filling kraters of wine for everyone."

One creates a sense of time and place for me, the other is 'generic fantasy'.

So my pitch is not this is canon or that is canon, but that using bronze age technology helps create the feel of Glorantha as something a little different.

PS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resinated_wine

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7 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

The key point here is not actually the 'canon' nature of barrels. It's not actually the canon nature of the technological base i.e. which items are specifically in or out. It's far more: how do you remind your players that this is an ancient world setting, and not the dark ages. Pointing out that the prevalent technology is not dark ages by not using barrels etc. helps with that sense of place.

Consider these two versions of the same scene:

The Black Pig is hopping tonight. Old Mellowy the innkeep has had to crack open extra barrels of the "Greydog Old Peculiar", and he freely admits when he ladles the lamb stew onto your trencher that he is worried he will be running out of beer tonight. He nods to the cloaked figure with a mailed shirt, sitting in the corner, with a crossbow placed on the table in front of him, "That stranger there is buying tankards of ale for everyone."

and

The Black Pig is hopping tonight. Old Mellowy the hostelier has had to had to fetch up extra amphora of the "Greydog Retsina", and he freely admits when he ladles the lamb stew into the earthenware bowl in front of you, that he is worried he will be running out of wine tonight. He nods to the cloaked figure with the bronze cuirasse, sitting in the corner, with a composite bow resting against the wall next to him, "That stranger there has me filling kraters of wine for everyone."

One creates a sense of time and place for me, the other is 'generic fantasy'.

So my pitch is not this is canon or that is canon, but that using bronze age technology helps create the feel of Glorantha as something a little different.

PS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resinated_wine

Totally agree with that. 

 

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9 hours ago, David Scott said:

Given than the Guide says

Quote

Technologically, the Praxians are a Neolithic culture. All of their metal is imported.

The Paps are part of the Praxian culture. Why would you find a metal worker there?

Basically, because it is the center of their culture, and so service folk will go there to work for them. Possibly skilled slaves. The presence of a Third Eye Blue smith in Gringle's retinue who works on imported iron rather than smelting his own is a similar case.

There were glass-workers at Hedeby, in an otherwise glass-less Viking culture. The merchant population of Hedeby apparently didn't move there entirely voluntarily, either, but were convinced to abandon their original Vik in Mecklenburg. While no 

The Block might be the place where the metal worker would find most of his customers, but then there he will find too many of his customers' customers, from the nearby marsh. But the likelihood of a metalworking slave or two at the Block is quite high, too.

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ceramics require quite a bit of firewood or charcoal

Dried animal dung is the major (perhaps only) fuel the Praxians use. No need for firewood or charcoal. It’s still used to fire pottery in some parts of the world.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Basically, because it is the center of their culture, and so service folk will go there to work for them.

I’m not convinced by this. There are no permanent structures outside of the Paps itself. Given that Praxians import all their metal (steal it as well), hot metal working is going to be rare. I’d suggest that outside of Pavis, Tourney Altar, Adari and Barbarian Town have the nearest hot metal workers. The pol-Joni likely access nearby sartarite settlements. 

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I really enjoyed this 

11 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

The Black Pig is hopping tonight. Old Mellowy the hostelier has had to had to fetch up extra amphora of the "Greydog Retsina", and he freely admits when he ladles the lamb stew into the earthenware bowl in front of you, that he is worried he will be running out of wine tonight. He nods to the cloaked figure with the bronze cuirasse, sitting in the corner, with a composite bow resting against the wall next to him, "That stranger there has me filling kraters of wine for everyone."

The Stormbull fire-pit is hopping tonight. Gung-gar has had his slaves fetch out his hidden skins of high Llama ayrag and freely admits when he hands you the roasted Impala leg that he is worried that there’s not enough booze here tonight. He nods to the cloaked figure in the bone cuirasse sitting to one side, a war boomerang lies on the floor in front of him. “If it wasn’t for him and the six skins of bison kumis he brought, your horn would be empty”

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May I notice that the krater would be the large communal wine mixing container from which the servants would scoop the drinks that would be poured in the skyphos (high cup) or skylix (flat bowl) at the drinker would be filled. The Krater would be refilled with wine and water (under the eyes of the drinkers, so that they knew what potency to expect).

Somehow the Greeks managed to produce wine in "cask strength", possibly by adding dried fruit to the mash (or however that is called in wine making). 

 

 

But then I think that wine is rather the exception than the rule in Orlanthi beverage consumption, a sign of status (except in wine-making clans).

"You think the beer is weaker these days, Horanth? Well, if your hens aren't laying, I don't have the eggs to give it more substance. I have to be careful with pig blood, overdo it and the entire cauldron will turn bitter."

That's the kind of exchange I would expect between a Sartarite brewer providing his thane or chief with the beverage for his public hall and a somewhat disgruntled customer.

 

 

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Dried animal dung is the major (perhaps only) fuel the Praxians use. No need for firewood or charcoal. It’s still used to fire pottery in some parts of the world.

Hmm. I never imagined the Praxians as doing their own pottery, either, but the oasis folk probably do.

I don't recall seeing dried animal dung under the main imports to Pavis.

 

Quote

I’m not convinced by this. There are no permanent structures outside of the Paps itself. Given that Praxians import all their metal (steal it as well), hot metal working is going to be rare. I’d suggest that outside of Pavis, Tourney Altar, Adari and Barbarian Town have the nearest hot metal workers. The pol-Joni likely access nearby sartarite settlements. 

The trope of the hamstrung smith plotting his revenge is alive and well in The Coming Storm.

There are numerous cultures that never had their own metal production, but relied on trade, tribute or raiding to get their hands on the tools for their main activity.

For Praxian purposes, a weak sorcerer able to form/set metal would be a bona fide metalworker.

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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17 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

The key point here is not actually the 'canon' nature of barrels. It's not actually the canon nature of the technological base i.e. which items are specifically in or out. It's far more: how do you remind your players that this is an ancient world setting, and not the dark ages. Pointing out that the prevalent technology is not dark ages by not using barrels etc. helps with that sense of place.

Consider these two versions of the same scene:

The Black Pig is hopping tonight. Old Mellowy the innkeep has had to crack open extra barrels of the "Greydog Old Peculiar", and he freely admits when he ladles the lamb stew onto your trencher that he is worried he will be running out of beer tonight. He nods to the cloaked figure with a mailed shirt, sitting in the corner, with a crossbow placed on the table in front of him, "That stranger there is buying tankards of ale for everyone."

and

The Black Pig is hopping tonight. Old Mellowy the hostelier has had to had to fetch up extra amphora of the "Greydog Retsina", and he freely admits when he ladles the lamb stew into the earthenware bowl in front of you, that he is worried he will be running out of wine tonight. He nods to the cloaked figure with the bronze cuirasse, sitting in the corner, with a composite bow resting against the wall next to him, "That stranger there has me filling kraters of wine for everyone."

One creates a sense of time and place for me, the other is 'generic fantasy'.

So my pitch is not this is canon or that is canon, but that using bronze age technology helps create the feel of Glorantha as something a little different.

PS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resinated_wine

While agreeing broadly with your point about evocative set dressing, there were clay pot stills in various places in Classical Antiquity, and even today traditional Mezcal production utilizes the hot-coals+stones+wet-leaves+soil-lid slow-cooker pit that is largely unchanged since the Neolithic. In the final stages, vapors condense down air-cooled reed outflows once they bubble up out of the clay tapered-amphora/pot-still from the lower part buried in the slow-cooker pit into the air exposed upper part. 

In a Gloranthan context, I fully expect that Lodril, Veskarthen, Caladra, et al cults have rites where they get together with the local Grain Goddess cult to bury His Fire & Her Fruits together in a fire pit for a few days of debauchery fueled by the products of their union within the steaming mound (with some saved in clay jugs for special occasions, no doubt). Perhaps Traditionalist holdouts in Tarsh may even make a point of raiding their Lunarized lowland cousins for maize with which to brew the mighty White Lightning.

Similarly, beer has been produced in the Fertile Crescent for many millennia. If Esra's cult cannot do the same with Her barley, it would be a cryin shame (even if they store it in jars rather than casks).

 

Edited by JonL
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55 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Hmm. I never imagined the Praxians as doing their own pottery, either, but the oasis folk probably do.

Only at the Paps and then very limited, likewise limited with the oasis folk. 

55 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I don't recall seeing dried animal dung under the main imports to Pavis.

As has been previously mentioned, it’s not an import. 

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Some frighteningly sensible posts recently.

I think Ian's posts above gets to the point.  Its about feel and its about create a vibe in your game that is something different from generic fantasy.

But what that different thing is will change from group to group. 

What may get the goat of some is that those with a particular skilled or informed views on archaeology and history wish define Glorantha by what offends them, where for most gamers most of the time it doesn't matter, or may even make the game a little less playable.

Or we turn away from very useful well documented sources that could enrich the game world because they do not fit the defined period, for example I spent a lot of time working on nick names for the Orlanthi recently, i used the Coming Storm as a reference point I also looked through lists of viking nicknames. the correlation was remarkable.

We would probably reject viking sources as being 'too dark age', but seeing as it is a real example, ads flavor, is three dimension and we don't have the same level  of documentation for the early northern European communities. The viking records are a great source, and creates the inspiration for a believable pattern, and in my opinion the game world is richer for using it as a source.

I'm all for a rich, three dimensional, believable setting routed in antiquity, but i struggle with players and enthusiasts being told no barrels, stirrups, skirmish size units, only a 30 inch blade not a 36 inch blade, etc, etc.

Let players and gm's define antiquity in manner that works for their gaming table.

Edited by Jon Hunter
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